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More on roofing harness

RichBeckman | Posted in General Discussion on March 23, 2004 04:38am

Tomorrow I am going to use a couple of roofing harnesses for the first time. The only harnesses I could find were at Menard’s: Nailer’s Fall Protection Compliance Kit made by Alta Industries.

The instructions are meagre but seem to indicate that the system should be set up so if the wearer falls, the fall will be stopped at six feet over the edge (taking into account the fact that the lanyard will open up 3 1/2 feet to slow the fall before the stop).

I would have thought that the whole point to the long rope and the lanyard was so you could move the lanyard up and down the rope as needed, keeping the rope tight so it could be “leaned” on when convenient, but making sure that you never get so far down the rope that you won’t be stopped before the six feet of fall.

Am I on the right track?? Any other advice on using this thing?

Thanks.

Rich Beckman

Another day, another tool.

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  1. Phat | Mar 23, 2004 05:13am | #1

    By no means an expert, but it sound like what you are talking about is the difference between "Fall Restraint" and "Positioning." There may be systems that accomplish both?

    Dunno.

    I'd find a Safety and Supply sorta company and ask.

    Ken

    Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability

  2. FrankB89 | Mar 23, 2004 07:35am | #2

    If I've got your question right in my head, you can use the lanyard for limited mobility around the main safety line (rope) and move it up and down with the "ascender" type device.

    But the lanyard itself, if an OSHA compliant one, is actually a longer strap folded and stitched together so if you have a real fall, the stitching rips out letting the strap unfold in a controlled way so that your fall is softened.

    And such a lanyard, once it does its job in restraining a fall, must be replaced by a new one (about $75) to remain OSHA compliant.

    I find the roof rigs a pain sometimes because the main line is often underfoot or wanting to get tangled in the air hose or the toe boards....BUT, there are a couple of quadraplegics locally who suffered their paralysis from roof falls....makes the annoyance of the roof rigs pretty tolerable.

    Just like any other equipment upon which your life may depend, keep your rig clean, make sure all the clips or carabiners are in good repair and working order and use a good anchoring method or system.

    In the spirit of the above, my crew and I use a "buddy" system when getting geared up to make sure the harnesses, anchors, etc. are properly installed/worn/buckled up.

    Last Fall, I was getting a couple of local roofers to give me an estimate on a roof; all 12/12 with a couple of dormers and about 20' of exposure below the eaves.  One guy says, "I'll do it for $xx as long as you don't make us use a roof rig."

    Sorry, but I don't give discounts for excessive testosterone....

     

    1. seeyou | Mar 23, 2004 03:52pm | #3

      If I understand the OSHA instructions (which may not be possible), properly spaced (every 6' vertically if I remember correctly)  90 degree roof jacks are an exceptable substitute for harnesses (I'm sure this is not acceptable for 20 story buildings).  This also gives lots of area for tools and supplies. I don't shingle much anymore, but when I did, taking the time to set up scaffold below me and plenty of jacks and boards, increased productivity AND safety over using harnesses.

    2. butch | Mar 25, 2004 12:24pm | #14

      Do you have a picture or link to these "slater brackets" you are referring to

      I don't believe I've ever seen any.  They sound a whole lot safer than the roof

      jacks that I've got now.

      1. SHazlett | Mar 25, 2004 01:50pm | #15

        butch,

        slaters brackets are pretty commonly available. I use 4 that my grandfather used---still work perfectly. I also have about 6 others that I bought a few years ago that match grandpa's brackets almost identical. The last ones I bought I bought from O'connor Steel and Supply( why not---grandpa had an account there!) I have also seen them locally at Willoughby Supply( a web search will get you to their web site) and Carter Jones Lumber. I have seen them many times on various web sites dealing with slate----and slate and copper supplies.

        Greencu,

        My article that was published didn't show any roof brackets at all ,as the roof shown was an easy 4/12.

        FHB does have pictures I believe of my slaters brackets in use on about a 12/12 for a never published tear-off article.

        I use my slaters brackets when working alone or with a small crew. I especially like the slaters bracket as you can use a single one to get a foothold in a tight area between a chimney and wall,for example, where you couldn't fit 2 jacks and a plank.

        I often "partner" up with a bigger crew that I use kind of as a sub if I want to put more than 10 guys on one project. when working with the bigger crew we generally use 60 degree 2x6 jacks or 90 degree 2x6 jacks. I posted pictures a couple of times with that setup that you may have seen here. we use the 2x6 brackets on jobs with the larger crew because that's what their workers are used to working with and feel comfortable with. ( Yesterday ,however,they were eying my nice wide 2x12 planks)

        BTW, the 2x12 planks 12 feet long are a bit of a ball buster to carry up and down the ladder and swing into position----and kind of dangerous to manuever on a tight lot with 12-14 roofers and laborers milling about.

        Edited 3/25/2004 6:55 am ET by SHAZLETT

        1. seeyou | Mar 25, 2004 01:58pm | #17

          I couldn't remember for sure. I saw them in use in a magazine article somewhere and liked the idea. 90 degree brackets are a rareity in these parts.

          Edited 3/25/2004 7:00 am ET by greencu

          1. SHazlett | Mar 25, 2004 04:12pm | #18

            Greencu, that picture you posted is what they looked like.

            I went out and looked at mine and found a sticker on one of the newer ones.

            they can be bought through http://www.american-mfg.com

            get the super 6 model---they will last a lifetime

      2. seeyou | Mar 25, 2004 01:56pm | #16

        http://www.abccatalog.com/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=0160001642

  3. Jeff | Mar 23, 2004 04:29pm | #4

    Rich

    This my not be OSHA approved, but makes me feel comfortable.

    I have a padded climbing harness (belt and legs, no upper body) and put an adjustable Gibbs Assender on it.

    I tie off a 11mm Static Rappeling rope some where off the roof.

    I can walk and move about easily, adjust up or down.

    If I slip or fall, I go about a foot then stop.

    I can even hange over the roof and not go anywhere.

    I used to use this set-up on climbing radio towers and works great.

    Jeff

    1. skids | Mar 23, 2004 06:25pm | #5

      jeff has a good system in that a climbing rope will have some stretch in it so that a slip or fall will not be stopped abruptly. that is the key with a safety system, stopping the fall slowly enough to not cause damage to the faller. a bungee jump, only shortened to the minimum length so as not to hit something before fall is arrested.

      the problem with adjusting the lanyard so that it doesnt stop you untill you are off the roof is that you may also get some horizontal swing at the end of your vertical descent, and then pull a george of the jungle into the side of a tree or building etc.

      if you are using a standard work harness there are two points to attach a shock absorbing lanyard (short bungee cord), the front in middle of upper chest, and the back in middle of upper back. these are points to be used for fall arrest, not positioning, although they are used for positioning incorrectly by some i will not admit to doing it.

      the "D" rings at the side of the harness at the waist are to be used for positioning, and any climber will tell you you can add a caribineer to the front at the waist for positioning also. there are also other techniques common to climbers to tie in for positioning.

      any time you are using a rope you have to worry about the condition of the rope, and any sharp edges it may come into contact with, not to mention tripping over it as a previous poster points out. they make a "yo-yo" which is a retractable lifeline that you can mount up high, and it automatically lets out cable or takes it in as you move unless there is a quick movement and it freezes like a car seat belt. very expensive, and you also have the problem of horizontal swing if you are not directly under the anchor point of the device.

      another system common is "dog runs" where a 3/8" cable is installed parallel to the ridge and up off the roof enough that its out of the way to work. then you can use made up cable extensions of different lengths to attach your lanyard and be able to work at different elevations. you must remember the anchor points of this system have to be able to withstand an incredible force, a 200 # man when he falls 6' can exert a tremendous force, and it multiplies rapidly, in the thousands of pounds. thats why you have to have the shock absorbing lanyard, thousands of pounds of force on your waist "D" ring (if attached with a rope that doesn't stretch) could very possibly break your back, just from a 6' fall!

      i think the best system is an OSHA approved roof jack system w/ guard rails at perimeter, i think this yields the best production, as well as being simple thereby eliminating engineering calculations for fall arrest and the highly possible catastrophic accident from an underdesigned or improperly installed fall arrest system. this is the reason the average joe can't find fall arrest systems, there is extensive training required to install and use a system properly, and the liabilities are to great to a manufacturer if they tried to sell them at wal mart or home depot

      1. Jeff | Mar 24, 2004 01:12am | #6

        Skids

        The system I use is a little more complicated, allowing me to lower or raise off a roof and such.

        I often work alone and need to be able to self rescue.

        Even after years of tower work, I still have a fear of falling and a good system gives a large amount of "peace of mind."

        Mostly gave up the high stuff so my wife wouldn't worry.

        I feel that some good training is very important, before using anything.

        Jeff

      2. User avater
        dieselpig | Mar 24, 2004 01:50am | #7

        I live in MA and anyone can walk into Home Depot and buy a Qual-Craft fall arrest system.

        Also FWIW, while building condo's for my old company we had several visits from OSHA unanounced.  We were sheathing the roof and had OSHA roof jacks with guard rails installed.  Got fined anyway for no hardhats and no fall arrest system.  It is now my understanding that using just jacks and guardrails doesn't cut it anymore.  Those rails wouldn't stop you anyway if you had any sort of a decent tumble going.

        OSHA also required that anyone on a roof with a harness needs to have a "spotter" whose sole job is move your hoses and tie-off out of your way as you go about your business.

        We had alot of strange things occur on that job.  Lots of OSHA visits (never saw them before or again after this job).  Trailer break-ins.  Job-site vandalism.  Stolen materials.  Seems we beat out two Union companies' bids on the same job.  Not saying it's all connected......but hmmmmm, funny how things work out, isn't it.

        1. seeyou | Mar 24, 2004 03:06pm | #10

          All my OSHA visits have occured on jobs where I beat out union shops. HMMMM?

          I always set up scaffolding at the eave under the roof jacks. Once again, lots of area for tools and materials.

          Edited 3/24/2004 8:08 am ET by greencu

  4. JohnSprung | Mar 24, 2004 03:58am | #8

    I'm scared of working up high, so my preference is to work "tight" -- with tension on the rig at all times.  I think this is safer, because you can't get moving in a fall and then have the sudden impact of taking up all the slack.   I also have a second rope grab and strap on my harness so I could "inch-worm" my way down to the ground if I ever went over the side.

    -- J.S.

    1. User avater
      RichBeckman | Mar 24, 2004 04:51am | #9

      Thanks for all the responses.

      We tried the harness out today.

      The first problem is that the anchor calls for.....

      32 two inch wood screws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      What a pain!

      First agenda tomorrow is getting some lags to subsitute for the screws so they can be driven in cleanly.

      The harness worked really well, usually not in the way, definitely empowered helper to do things he might not have otherwise done. Most of the time the rope was lax, but there were a couple of times that the helper "leaned" on it.

      I think the harness makes toe boards a more viable option, but the use of roof jacks and planks and toe boards is still necessary.

      This harness only has one ring on the center of the back of the shoulders. The OSHA web site seems to indicate that the attachment ring must be on the back.

      I agree that OSHA requires a harness whenever a fall of more than six feet is possible.

      Rich Beckman

      Another day, another tool.

  5. SHazlett | Mar 24, 2004 07:24pm | #11

    Rich,

    trying to figure out the OSHA regs is like trying to figure out the tax code.

    If you look into it you MAY find that a harness is not required on repair work or demolition work

    So---while reflashing a chimney,re-working a valley, or during a large tear-off----are you required??????? Also note the " qualified person" exclusions.

    also note that safety on the roof has little to do with testosterone----and much more to do with agility and experience.

    Regaurding experience-----I have a tablesaw out in my garage that I rarely use----I am sure that whenever I use it i am doing something wrong. something dangerous. I am afraid to even walk near it hiding  over there in the corner---and frankly the SOUND of it running scares the f!@#$%^ sh!@ out of me.

    but I believe I am much better qualified to judge the safety of my roof top set-ups---since I am way more experienced at THOSE.

    Greencu mentioned 90* roof brackets. A 2x6 on 90 * might stop a slide---but personally I would rather prevent it in the first place. I like to  personally use Slaters Brackets which have a lovely ,wide stable base-----are adjustable to about any pitch, and let me use 2x12's in a horizontal position.

    2x12's on Slaters Brackets makes it seem like you are walking around on the sidewalk up there. VERY safe. AND they make for a MUCH better finished product.

    90* 2x6's force the roofers to put a lot of foot traffic and heavy wear on the new shingles-----but the slaters brackets with 2x12's let you stay off the new shingles and on the planks---you can walk,stand,sit,squat whatever with out scuffing the new shingles.

    Also---what might be perfectly safe for a agile 22 year old with some experience----might be risky for a 40 something roofer.( or someone who doesn't work rooftop a lot)----for instance I know that personally I am measureably physically stronger at 41 than I was at say 25----but I am  less co-ordinated. I also know---that even though I am stronger---I don't have the endurance I had a 25. I also know that later in the day as my endurance drops---so does my concentration and safety-----so  the set ups I use take this into account.

    Also-----I have never ,EVER met a roofer who thought that harnesses were a good idea on a regular basis. EVER.

    My suggestion to you---if you are going into the roofing business-------

    you definitely do not want an older employee with a variety of skills. ( Even though you may be more personally comfortable working with him.

    what you want is a YOUNGER, more agile employee with stamina---who also has some experience. Put him ( or them)to work doing the bulk of the work---shingling the field. you concentrate on the flashings,the finish work, the safety, the business end of it. don't hire someone like YOU---hire someone who can supply things you can't---youth,energy,stamina---and profit from that. You supply business expertise and and things that your younger employees can't .

    Best wishes in your new venture.

    1. seeyou | Mar 24, 2004 07:43pm | #12

      Another setup I've used when the roof allows (large planes and steep pitch) is two chicken ladders with ladder jacks and a wide aluminum pick. I like those slater's jacks also. If I remember correctly without digging out the magazine, the first time I saw 90 degree jacks was in your shingling article.

    2. User avater
      RichBeckman | Mar 25, 2004 04:55am | #13

      Stephen,

      Slaters Brackets?? I am using roof jacks that have three different pitch settings and they take a 2x10.

      And yes, I am fully aware that I want younger employees that have plenty of "youth,energy,stamina"

      "Best wishes in your new venture."

      Thanks! It's only taken two years to get this far. Hopefully, progress will pick up its pace a bit.

      Rich Beckman

      Another day, another tool.

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