mortaring ‘old brick’ to concrete
Hello All,
Arrrrgh, wife who has plenty of experience laying tile wants to use the ‘old brick’ from our chimney in our driveway (this weekend).
She wants to mortar the brick to the concrete driveway (which is already stepped down to accomodate the bricks).
Here’s what she/we don’t know how is this going to be different than laying tiles? I’ve read that ‘old brick’ is much softer than ‘new brick’ and requires a special mortar. But then we learned that the change-over from old-new happened right around the time our house was built-1897. So, how do you tell if the brick is old-soft or new-hard.
Then, what’s the best way to lay these on concrete? She’s going to do some sort of complicated herring-bone pattern.
She’s got a Taunton book for HO’s that says lay the bricks in mortar like you would tile then after the mortar’s set sweep dry mortar into the joints and wet them-and thats it?
That sound alright?
Thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
Nope.
Not for traffic ... maybe for a patio. And doing a whole driveway in brick herringbone is a big job ... lots of issues, even if it doesn't freeze-thaw much in Oakland. Edge retention? etc.
Rarely a job for anything but real pavers, not chimney brick. You can, btw, have a testing lab do a compressive strength test on the brick for a few hundred dollars, but it still doesn't belong on a driveway. Check out Cushwa and other names for nice pavers.
Jeff
Edited 2/15/2008 2:10 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Uh-oh,
Side retention won't be a problem as there is already a concrete ledge around the entire driveway. We're only talking about a space 12' wide by 15' long.
Why no chimney brick on the driveway? Is it not strong enough to handle having a car parked on it?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Is it not strong enough to handle having a car parked on it?
Probably not. Most pavers are cast concrete or if they're fired clay, they're fired harder than typical clay brick. The hardness is the issue, if I understand correctly.http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
The issue is not only hardnerss, but porosity. Chimney brick/wall brick is designed to be laid up, so that the water that gets on it is glancing, & can drain right off. Soon as you lay them down on a concrete backing, you have totally changed their environment.
Use the chimney brick to build some planters, and get som pavers for the drive. They come in some really nice, tumbled textures.
I speak from bitter experience, alas!
Love herringbone-ed old brick. I did this in that specific sand for pavers, using brick from OUR old chimneys; might work for a small driveway. Easy to replace any that spall off. This is under roof, though. We left the brick stacked outside for a decade, though, and discarded all that deteriorated; what we call here the "salmon" brick.
Cut them with a $5, 12" blade in my DW chop saw; misting with a hose.
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Forrest
Edited 2/15/2008 6:42 am ET by McDesign
Using that sort of brick for a driveway means that probably you willhave crumbling brick to remove and replace in 5-10 years. That is a lot of hard work to be throwing away.
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Using that sort of brick for a driveway means that probably you willhave crumbling brick to remove and replace in 5-10 years. That is a lot of hard work to be throwing away.
I've gotten some inputs from certified old house nuts who think the reason 'old brick' crumbles like that is because of the use of incorrect mortar.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"some inputs from certified old house nuts who think the reason 'old brick' crumbles like that is because of the use of incorrect mortar. "Listen to all the old house nuts you want to, it is your own labour, not mine you are throwing away.What you have is brick that was never made to be exposed to the elements, especially in an abrasive environment.
They are old already, and have been exposed to something like a century of the acids and chemicals in smoke that degrade brick further from what it once was.In a structural situation like a wall, the new portland mortar does have an effect in that stresses will be absorbed by the brick instead of the mortar so it will break up. There are stresses in the driveway too, but the most deterioration will be from abrtasion and from water that penetrates then freezes.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Mortar that is too hard (too much portland cement) can cause that problem. But another problem is that old bricks used inside are often much different, and much softer than ones used outside.If you had exterior bricks, I would say go for it (you can always replace them if they fail later). But if you are talking about what we typically call 'salmon' bricks which are fairly soft and vary in color - then no way would I do it.
>> Arrrrgh, wife who has plenty of experience laying tile wants to use the 'old brick' from our chimney in our driveway (this weekend). << Man she is a slave driver, isn't she? :-) May seem like a harsh statement but check back with me when the project is done.... There is a reason they charge $12 a sq foot or more for this kind of stuff... Herring bone makes it even more demanding, the issue there being that it is not so easy to use string lines to line up your work.
I don't know about old brick - I'd definitely have some Qs there - but I do know a few things about doing brick pavers although I've only done dry laid - mortared in I hire out. You need a mortar bag, probably a few different sizes of tuck point margin tools and a lot of patients. The problem is, especially in your application, getting the brick and mortar in there so that there are not a bunch of hidden gaps that are going to fill up with water and freeze and bust it all up.
>> Here's what she/we don't know how is this going to be different than laying tiles? It is very different because it's not like you can just lay out the brick and then smear the mortar all over it and wipe it off with a sponge. The brick would be all "painted up" and look nasty. Laying mortared in pavers isn't easy - it's almost more like an art.
You need a diamond blade cutoff saw. Either one like this, or better still something like this. Rental shop. Definitely get some serious hearing protection (no joke) and of course some safety glasses - the first part I kind of learned the hard way...
Really you need to talk to Mudslinger. He is a friendly guy, very knowledgeable and I'm sure he will answer your Qs. Not only does he post here somewhat regularly but he has also written published articles on masonry and similar topics at least one one of which was in JLC recently - books too I think. Only drawback is he makes the skill he has learned over years of practice sound easy... :-)
PS - I'll second what See-U said. Paver brick are different than wall brick. I understand you wanting the old look, but as much work as this is going to be, you want it to last...
BTW - I just re-read your initial posting... I missed the part about dry sweeping in the mortar so some of what I wrote above may not apply. I've not tried that method.
Edited 2/15/2008 7:48 am ET by Matt
Catch those "How it's Made" shows on the Discovery channel. Recently I've seen one on how clay bricks are made, and just yesterday on how pavers are made. Two totally different processes. Significantly different - all the way thru the process.
CU's right. Clay bricks are porous and have a psi rating somewhere less that 1,000. The pavers will top out at over 5,000 and have been compressed to make them as solid as possible.
Piffin's right. You'll have to replace them soon. Although, while I was in S. Cal, I noticed many, many drives with single inlays along the edge or seperating slabs. It obviously is a local feature, but not a long lasting one.
Pavers will likely match that backyard work you're doing much more than the clay chimney ones.
Repent. The end is near. The earth will soon spin off it's axis and plunge into the sun. Two BTer's agreed with me. Woe is me.http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
It's Friday. Enjoy it while you can!
For what it's worth, I agree with you too. Bad idea to use brick outdoors that was probably intended for interior use. Like you and others said, this stuff will be porous and will not hold up. I suppose though, in a couple years it would be like that brick mulch you can get!
The bricks are from an exterior chimney so wouldn't they be for exterior use? I'm not trying to be combative I just don't understand enough about working with old bricks.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Maybe--I still think what was said (and backed up with data) about bricks made to be used as pavers being made differently than just brick for walls is right. At least you don't have to worry about freeze/thaw--that is what destroys bricks around here. I guess all you'd be wasting is your time if it doesn't work, as the bricks are free, you could try it and see what happens.
bricks are from an exterior chimney so wouldn't they be for exterior use?
Excellent question.
Bricks used in chimneys are generally three types. There's the veneer, or face, bricks--which only need be pretty on a face and ad both ends. These bricks often have holes in them to make them a bit lighter. Some face bricks are only hardened on their surfaces.
The bulk of a chminey is in "common" bricks, which are usually solid, and fired right through to be uniform in strength. Generally.
Then there's the 'fire' brick. That's either the fired clay flue piping or the refractory brick in the firebox, or both--it can depend upon the region and era of the chimney and the mason.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"The bricks are from an exterior chimney so wouldn't they be for exterior use? "I am still playing catch-up here...
That is a help. means they are less porous, but still have suffered the ravages of all that acid they have been exposed to
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Okay all she's been cleaning-scrubbing bricks all weekend-all three days!! She's still set on it but has switched to masons sand as the bed and is not doing the herringbone pattern but she is doing a pattern.
The measurements work out pretty exactly and she thinks that she won't have to cut any bricks. She is planning on doing them very tightly.
thanks for all the replys,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
>> The measurements work out pretty exactly and she thinks that she won't have to cut any bricks. << That will make a huge difference.
CU's right. Clay bricks are porous and have a psi rating somewhere less that 1,000. The pavers will top out at over 5,000 and have been compressed to make them as solid as possible.
That's not correct. In Masonry Design and Detailing, Christine Beall wrote:
"Actual compressive strengths of clay masonry units are usually higher than those of ordinary structural concrete. For standard run brick, strengths typically range from 1500 to 22,000 psi, with the majority of units produced being in excess of 4500 psi."
Bricks that are manufactured for paving are an excellent paving material. In many areas, concrete pavers are more affordable but that's not the case here in North Carolina. NC produces more bricks than any other state. In Raleigh and Chapel Hill, in and around the NC State and UNC campuses, there are, literally, acres of brick paving. I've done many brick paving jobs for residences.
The use of old bricks that were made for walls for paving--especially exterior paving--is not a good idea.
The use of old bricks that were made for walls for paving--especially exterior paving--is not a good idea.
Could you please elaborate on this? The wife's pretty set on this idea and I'm going to need a lot of ammo. What if we did the concrete ribbon thing to drive on and then used the old chimney brick in the 'non-loadbearing' areas?
What type of mortar mix should be used with the older softer brick and how do I tell if we do have soft bricks.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
It's the porosity of the brick that is the problem. Mudslinger is absolutely correct their compressive strength is fine.
The freeze thaw cycle will leave you with a serious mess.
There is no freeze-thaw cycle to speak of in Alameda CA.Rebeccah
well that's great if that's true cause there is no freeze thaw cycle here on an island in the SF bay. I've discussed it with the wife and she's pretty set on it so....it'll be her labor while I'm trimming out the new garage door and building the walls for our new downstairs bath.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
There's no talking a woman out of doing something like that. She'll probably have a good time for a while. I'm no expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if it lasts well. I also wouldn't be surprised if it lasted only a year. I made a tempory pad from used bricks to give my dogs a place to wait at the gate without being in a mud pit. That was over 15 years ago. Some bricks disintegrated, some are fine still. We get lots of freze thaw cycles here.
Go read some stuff at the Brick Institute of America to learn the difference between clay paving brick and wall brick. I'm pretty sure their website is devoid of opinions, or at least that is their intention.
Start here. I recommend you read notes 9a, 14, 15 for starters. BTW - here is a direct from note 15: Because of the greater likelihood that moisture will be present, salvaged brick should not be used for exterior patios, walks, pavements, etc.
If you do some Googling you can find some information about mixing mortar for use with old brick. I think the crux of it is that old mortars had a higher lime content, and depending on how far you go back, even no Portland cement.
Fair enough if their is no freezing, but for the record I'm going to go with the suggestion that it is too much work to risk using improper materials.
That said their are several methods to laying pavers and not all rely on mortar. I prefer some sort of curbing to hold it in place and not rely on mortar at all.
"and not rely on mortar at all"
Especially when you know that some of those bricks will need to be replaced in the next few years...
Mad, There are two basic systems for paving with brick: rigid and flexible. This article describes the two systems. Click the link that brings you to the PDF file. Check the sources at the end of the article, too.
http://www.masonryconstruction.com/industry-news.asp?sectionID=0&articleID=245268
and I'm going to need a lot of ammo
I'm trying to find a reference (they are a tad thin on the ground, er, internet) but I want to remember that paving brick are laid on edge, not on the flat, and you could run out of the "available" brick faster--which whould neither be thrifty nor pretty.
Walks & patios would be ok. Edging for planting beds, ditto. As roadmetal, probably not so much.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Could you please elaborate on this? The wife's pretty set on this idea and I'm going to need a lot of ammo. What if we did the concrete ribbon thing to drive on and then used the old chimney brick in the 'non-loadbearing' areas?
What type of mortar mix should be used with the older softer brick and how do I tell if we do have soft bricks.
Prior to the ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials), which I think came into being in the 1930s, bricks weren't tested in a laboratory as they are now. To qualify as a paver brick today, bricks are tested for both water absorption and compressive strength. In both regards, they have to test out quite a bit higher than common or face bricks. If the face bricks you have were ever tested, you have no idea what the results were. Essentially, you're working in the dark.
I like old brick but I only use them indoors. Outdoors, I'm more comfortable using a material that has been tested. This would be particularly true in paving applications, where the bricks really take a beating.
To tell if your brick is soft or hard, hit it with a hammer. If it thuds, it's soft; if it pings, it's hard. Also, break the brick. If there are a lot of sandy crumbs, the brick is soft. If it's hard to break and then it breaks into clean pieces with sharp edges, the brick is hard. If it's salmon-colored and crumbly, don't use them for pavement. I can't recommend a suitable mortar for old soft bricks for paving because old soft bricks are not appropriate for paving, especially paving that will be subject to vehicular traffic.
Well I told the wife everything negative y'all said to try to discourage her but to no avail.....
She's been hard at it all morning and I think she might actually get it all the bricks down....
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While i'm sitting inside on my butt cause my backs acting up.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 3/2/2008 3:15 pm by madmadscientist
For that small an area even if a few deteriorate over the years it's easy to put some more in.
Looking good. Don't forget the finished pictures.
That ain't big enough to call a driveway. I take it all back. She can go ahead and cahnge it every other year for no more work than it would take to strip the wax off the floors and rewax them.
;)
but where is the drainage for that system?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Look along the garage apron. It's a built in channel drain.
Looks like she went with a basket weave pattern? It's one of the easier ones that still is more interesting than a running bond. That's not a very large area so I'm guessing she might be well into it by now. So, what is she laying them on and what is the treatment for between bricks - sweep in mortar/sand mixture? I see some bags of something there.... If it is a dry lay, is she going to "shake 'em down" with a plate vibrator?
One thing that she might have picked up from us is to avoid cuts. That will be a HUGE time saver...
take a look at the attached pics. IIRC the "deck and steps" had little to no cuts. This was a dry laid "chamfer edge pavers". I definitely recall that that "patio" had a lot of cuts... it was concrete pavers - very cool pattern - dry laid. Both were on top of ABC gravel and then screenings (stone dust-sand), and then masons sand was swept over the top and then the job was gone over with a plate vibrator.
BTW - since you got her doing a mans job how about some man tools - like loose the wimpy level... :-) Sure wish my DW could do some stuff like that... then again, then I really would have a manager... ;-) No offence to our feminine contributors intended...
I think you should cook her dinner :-)
Well its now 6:54ish and shes still out there working...
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She decided to go with a 1" base of fine sand that she is tapping the bricks into. She is going for as little gap between bricks as possible. Its pretty solid right now eventhough she hasnt added any sand between bricks.
She's not sure if she needs to use a plate vibrator yet. I think she wants to sweep sand inbetween them and jump up and down a a 4by8 piece of plywood.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 3/2/2008 9:58 pm by madmadscientist
Lookin' good! She's gonna sleep like a baby tonight.... Tell her we all think she's awesome...
The driveways done and our little PT Cruiser isn't going to hurt these bricks anytime soon.
She drove the car back and forth on the drive and then swept more sand in. She didn't vibrate the bricks we just jumped on them a lot. Its supposed to rain here this week so maybe the sand will compact a bit we can sweep some more in
Looks good don't ya think?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I wonder if these bricks were re-claimed for the previous usage? Just wondering why there are so many different colors... Do you think the chimney was original to the house?
The white bricks actually pavers we found ~1' down in the back yard. The rest of the bricks came from the chimmney and they are original. All the original chimmneys in neighborhood have many different color bricks? Maybe it was a fashion statement back in 1897.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
been there,bought the tickets and brought home the t shirt,on using wall bricks for pavers. nobody told me there was a difference.
3 years and i need to replace 10% that are turning to what someone called"brick mulch" it's pretty disapointing ,but at least it's not hard to repair for now. larry if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Not sure if this was already covered?
Sweep the sand over top and gently hose it in the cracks.
Do this several times and you can really fill the joints.
PS - is that a water meter I see in the middle of the driveway? They won't let us do that here....
I was wrong she was right.
Hanging head in shame...
That's something my wife would do, if she had a fire under her. I'm not 100% certain my wife could pull it off - she's incredibly quick with computer programs and technology, but all thumbs in the real world. She's never hesitated to make a hash of job, though, if it was obvious that I was literally never going to do it. Your photo is really precious, what with your wife in the bandana and all.
Oakland, eh? No real frost to worry about. . .
What about concrete strips to drive on, with herring-bone pattern in between? In my book, it'd look OK - although, ha, too much work IMO.
Is re-using the old brick an effort to economise? 'Cause that's false economy.
What about concrete strips to drive on, with herring-bone pattern in between? In my book, it'd look OK - although, ha, too much work IMO.
Is re-using the old brick an effort to economise? 'Cause that's false economy.
We've seen several driveways like that...not the most attractive option according to my wife.
She wanted to re-use the brick because she likes how it looks and we already had it that's about the long and short of it.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
A herringbone pattern will require those bricks to be very uniform, or else your pattern will start to run, and you'll be pulling your hair out laying them.
You will need an extremely stout base to resist the load -- like 6 - 8" of crushed limestone, on a couple inches of masons sand. Then set the bricks as tightly as possible. Make sure you slope your pad appropriately (1/4" per foot min.). Brush masons sand in and you're done. Some bricks will disentigrate, but you can replace them easily.
You may find that a running bond pattern will lay easier if your bricks aren't uniform (see attached). Eventually you'll have to replace it, but so what -- it's cheap right now! Stay away from mortar!!!!
She'll be laying these bricks on a rebar re-inforced ~4" concrete slab. Do you think she can use the masons sand on the slab?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
A slab is a GREAT base course! Many times, we specify laying your typical concrete pavers on a depressed slab, because you get the most level, solid sub-surface that way. We've used that detail mostly interior and under cover. In Indianapolis, freeze-thaw is a big concern, but where you are that should work out great.
Those bricks will never move, just deteriorate eventually. If you have extras, keep them handy. It will last long enough though."It depends on the situation..."
I think you should do it. Just not in cement. I live in Boston where there is a lot of freezing and I used bricks from my chimney and several other sources, including interior bricks, to pave my car parking spaces and a walk. I didn't even use a crushed stone base or sand. I just laid them on the dirt and swept more dirt between the cracks. Some of the bricks disintegrated but they were easy to replace. This is not a type of job a contractor could do for a HO but a HO could do for him (or her) self.
You've got a concrete bed. I'd add some sand or stone dust to that to make a bed or cushion for the bricks. and sweep some sand in between the cracks. The only thing I wouldn't do is the herring-bone. To much cutting. But that's your choice.
And one last thing... Don't let any concrete trucks drive across it. Cars and light trucks only. A neighbor of mine was working on his house and the concrete truck sure made a mess of my brick work.
Well your getting all sorts of advice, both for and against.
I think it's fair to say you are risking a lot of work and could end up with a big mess.
It doesn't matter who you believe, knowledgeable people have warned you.
Good luck I hope you choose wisely.
P.S.
Those bricks could make lots of other very cool things.
She wants to mortar the brick to the concrete driveway (which is already stepped down to accomodate the bricks).
Just out of curiousity, how did the step get there ?
carpenter in transition
well she's not mortaring the bricks just to be clear.
When the foundation guys poured the drive-way they planed ahead for the bricks and recessed the driveway surface in like 4".
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer