Mouse chews through PEX tubing- – –
MikeInVT
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Yesterday I had to repair a leak in a radiant heating system (not my installation). A mouse had chewed into the pipe where it passed through a floor joist. Fortunately, it was in an un-finished basement so there wasn’t much damage.
Two things I would suggest when installing these systems: 1) Always install isolation valves on every loop. 2) Make the holes large enough for both tubing and a mice to fit through.
Replies
Mice fit through pretty small holes. They used to run through conduits from one overhead light fixture to the next where I worked. Kind of weird seeing that.
Was the mouse paying rent? And the damage was at a junction where the tube passed through a joist? While a leaking radiant system is never a good thing, I'd be a lot more concerned with rodent infiltration into my home. I'm the only rodent allowed in my home.
Mice are fairly common here. They like to move inside when it gets cold out. I've killed 3 or 4 this winter.---------------
Buy Sam a drink, and get his dog one too.
When I was doing hurricane repairs in PR several years back they had us keep all wiring in the stud cavities up two feet or so from the bottom, to protect the wiring from rats.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
If a dwelling is not sealed against the intrusion of rodents, there are a lot of things at risk; other-than-metal plumbing, Romex, insulation degradation, other-than-metal HVAC ducting....not to mention potential health risks to the occupants from mold or dust resulting from the nasty personal hygiene of the critters and accumulations of dog food..
It can be a real problem and requires a lot of attention during construction. Mice can scurry through 3/4" holes bored for romex and rats and mice can easily gnaw through plastic hardware cloth that is often used for soffet vents. Plugging potential entries with products like "Great Stuff" is just providing a stash of nesting material.
Some squirrel species and bats can also be a problem....once they gain access it's hard to keep them out....some squirrels are pretty determined and once they've gained access are amazing in their ability to compromise barriers installed after-the-fact.
If you live in a relatively mild climate, especially in a rural wooded area, as I do, traps or poison bait stations (designed to avoid poisoning pets) set outdoors are also beneficial.
Years ago I built a home and stuffed every hole through wall plates with steal wool. I now live in a different house and ever year or so I hear a mouse inside a wall.
STEAL WOOL!!!!!!!
You STEAL it from a sheep? LOL
Mice be scared of sheep.
House is in the woods, and every winter whitefooted mice try to head into the house to share the warmth. Can't blame them for just trying to make a living, but they are unwelcomed guests. My wife was appalled at the idea of doing them in (actually I wasn't especially cozy with the notion either) so aside from plugging all the possible tiny access holes I could locate, I found some live traps, small clear plastic cubes that have a simple swinging one-way flap on one end. They work like a charm - take the trap out into the woods, turn the trap over so the flap falls flat, and the mouse is free but no longer sharing my quarters.
Using those traps last winter, I did over a succession of days catch what I thought was an extremely inordinate number of mice. I walked each out in the trap and released it about one to two hundred yards or so from the house back in the woods. I couldn't believe that we could have that many mice, and I began to closely examine each of the "new" captives. Now, mice look pretty much alike, but I began to think that their was something just too familar about them and suggested to my wife that I put a dab of white-out on one to see if it might be a returnee. She only laughed it off. Wondering about their habits, I went to the internet and Googled white footed mouse. The first hit led me to all I needed to know. These little buggars can sucessfully find their way back from over a mile away! Armed with this new found knowledge, it didn't change our disposal methods; we just drove them over two miles away before releasing them. The "infestation" was thereafter very shortly solved, and I didn't have to feel like a ruthless killer.
yoss,
you are a great humanitarian.
Hope you get good mileage in your vehicle as those mice start sounding awful expensive when thinking of future generations ;o)
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
The thought of what it was costing me did not escape my attention, but it's a small cost compared to the wife's cold shoulder.
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'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Your wife and mind must be sisters. We moved out to the woods, not long ago, this is our second winter here. We were both surprised of the amount of rodents that want to come in from the cold. My wife also did not want me to use lethal force to rid us of these unwanted guest. Traped them alive and brought them to work, and let them loose in the parking lot. I worked for a Semiconductor company, they couldn't get inside, no badge! LOL.
Many years ago a good buddy and his family moved just outside Portland, Maine. He wouldn't let his kids have any pets, not even gold fish! The old farm house they bought, was a great place for his two boys. Shortly after moving in, he found that the house was loaded with Gerbils!. The two boys thought they were great! They must have had a dozen or more in thier bedroom that they would feed, they thought they were their pets. They had to move out for a time while some company came in, and did them all in. But the boys tell me, there was always a few left! I guess, he paid his price for not letting the boys have any pets.
I use SS steel wool to plug holes. But since our home is on a slab, with wire ways cast into the slab, with one 1 1/2" wire wire way going outdoors under the deck, makes me wonder? I will have to crawl under the deck and take care of the conduit. I hope the wire insullation in satisfactor.
An old Navy buddy a few miles from me in R.I. found a Garder snake in his finished basment. He didn't tell his wife, and figured it would keep the rodent popluation down. One night his wife goes down to the basement to get something to drink bare footed. She lets out this blood curdleing screem! When he got to her, she pointed to the room, and when he turned the light on, on the floor where she stood, looked like about twenty baby snakes moving around! He said, "I kind of Freeked me out too!"
I laugh and learn from all your conversations, I like this net!............Pop
Used to work with a guy who had a cabin out in the woods. He had problems with people breaking in and mice. He solved both problems by collecting all the rattle snakes he saw. He would stuff them into a sack. Perhaps a couple of dozen. Once everything was packed up and ready to go he would put some into the attic, center of the floor and crawl space.He claimed that it worked. Break-ins and mouse visitations trickled down to nothing. Only once did he find a snake when returning. No problem, that one became the first in the sack. Nothing like a couple of dozen hungry pygmy, pine and timber rattlers for eliminating mice. They have been doing it for millions of years.
couple of things on vermin habits -
foam is an acceptable way to stop mice in most circumstances - they will not arbitrarily start chewing on foam - - if there is a draft that clues them into the fact there is 'another side' to the circumstance then they will seek a way thru -
and really, 4lorn - I'd rather have the mice than to have to worry about rattle snakes - and I've had a fair amount of experience with snakes in the house - dad's house (old farm house) is an overwintering site for some impressive, if harmless, king snakes - maybe Rich Beckman will chime in and testify - they are shy and retiring, but once in a while you'll run across one in the basement (never seen one in the house proper) - always good for an adrenaline rush - bout gave aunt Joann a heart attack when during the big cleanout after mother fell ill, aJ found a bucket where dad had placed a couple (of small ones) to carry outside -
anyway - in the case in post 1, if the pex/hole was caulked thoroughly (no draft around the pex) the mice would not have attacked - -
"there's enough for everyone"
Snakes around these parts aren't, at least for the folks in the sticks, a big thing. Live in Florida and your going to have to come to some agreement with a variety of critters. Even in fairly urban surroundings snakes, alligators, poisonous centipedes, scorpions, and, of course, mosquitoes that sometimes pack EEE or WNV.Re: "in the case in post 1, if the pex/hole was caulked thoroughly (no draft around the pex) the mice would not have attacked"I agree. In my limited experience mice and rats don't normally attack surfaces unless there is an existing hole. Usually it's a hole almost big enough for them to get through. They then just widen it out a bit. If a cable of run of PEX get in the way they just modify to fit. I have seen three wire cables, a hot, neutral and ground, chewed down to three bare copper wires for over a foot. The circuit still live. The mouse must have made it because there was no body or fur. Very talented those mice.
Live in Florida and your going to have to come to some agreement with a variety of critters. Even in fairly urban surroundings snakes, alligators, poisonous centipedes, scorpions, and, of course, mosquitoes that sometimes pack EEE or WNV.
Which is one more reason I wonder why anyone would live in Florida? It doesn't even snow there! Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
That would be bad enough (no sno), But they have roaches that are bigger than most cats also, Don't they?
Hi Don. Haven't seen you here for some time.
As to Florida roaches, I think there's a rifle season on them. I'd hesitate to use less than a .300 Winchester mag, myself. Sometimes they charge when they're wounded.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I have been lurking , just most of the info I can contribute has been posted before I get to it so I just keep reading. .300 eh ? I think i'll stay home.
I'd hesitate to use less than a .300 Winchester mag, myself
You've obviously not priced those .300WM in bulk then <g>. And, you'll be needing some orthopedic work on the shoulder afterwards, too.
Belt-fed .22LR, on the other hand . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Can't be a lot worse than firing both barrels of a 12 gauge at once, can it?Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Can't be a lot worse than firing both barrels of a 12 gauge at once, can it?
Depends on many things. After emptying a double-barrel 12 ga, you have to make that concious decision to break the bad boy open and repeat the process. That .300 WM might have 3 or 4 mor rounds in the magazine you could cycle the bolt over before there's a 'forced' pause to possibly engage brain. (Which goes back to some sage advice of a former Scout--of a sort--formerly of Rhodesia, on why a .416 only holds three rounds typically . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
No Florida home is complete without a few roaches. Even the hospitals only seek to control the populations. Elimination is impossible. Insect season is year round.We have the normal, garden variety, german roaches, the little ones with the sporty dark stripes that are everywhere man goes. I hear they have been spotted in the space station. In Florida we also have the larger ones we call palmetto bugs. Up to 3" long and at least one variety that both flies and isn't afraid of the light.Flip on the light and the germans run for cover. Always a Florida right of passage when the new folks flip on the kitchen light and a roach as big as their thumb just sits there staring at them. They look at you as if they were saying 'What the hell are you doing in My house'. When you can remain nonplussed when one takes flight and lands on your forehead you know your a native. They are rugged beasts. Most Floridians have at least one tale of stomping one, hearing the crunch and then watching it scurry off once the boot is lifted. A 30/30 will work if you hit them in the head but wounded they can be vindictive. Tending to die in coffee cups and shoes. Pays to check.Of course for the full Florida experience you have to have one fly into your mouth while you sleep. They seek moisture while they fly. Your a hard core Floridian when you can, following such an intrusion, gently crush their head with the front teeth, achieve a good ballistic arc into the trashcan and calmly roll over, snug up the sheets and finish the night.
Let it snow Let it snow
You know, I kind of enjoy firing up the Farmall and plowing the driveway two or three times during a nor'easter. I'm pretty sure that beats a winged roach landing in my sleeping maw.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
My parents in Florida have never really had a problem with roaches, but that might be because the scorpions keep the roaches at bay.
Re: ... "the scorpions keep the roaches at bay."Fire ants, scorpions, snakes, mice and rats all eat roaches. High protein. Mice treat a palmetto bug like a crunchy all-day sucker. On the up side roaches eat bedbugs.<Cue Sir Elton John playing 'The Cycle of Life' in background ... And fade to silence.>Mice, as demonstrated by this thread, can damage PEX. Mice and just about any unarmored cables don't get along. I have seen PVC conduit chewed just enough to make room into a concrete wall but the wires inside were undamaged. With mice they seem to mostly chew to make tight spots passable. The damage is much more focused and practical, from a mouse point of view.Rats, and their tree bound relatives, squirrels, are a different story. They seem to chew indiscriminately and gratuitously. I realize rodents have to chew to keep the teeth short enough to fit in the mouth. But rats, and especially squirrels, seem to ignore things they can chew that would cause little damage and home in on the vital systems to gnaw on. Even copper. Possibly the worse possible case in that as it was a corrugated gas line. After quite a bit of gnawing a pinhole. The HO claimed they could sometimes smell gas but couldn't track it down. We found it because we had to physically track or replace every foot of cable following a particularly bad rat infestation. Granted this line was not as thick as a standard copper water line and this was the first we or the plumber who replaced it had seen. He kept the replaced section for demonstration purposes. The pest control contractor worked with the carpenters to seal the house up with hardware cloth, sheet metal, copper wool and caulk. Sealing is important. But so is simple sanitation. Eliminate water and sewage leaks. Get rid of anything they consider food or nesting materials. If they don't particularly find the house to be rodent heaven they are more likely to stay out. Pest control suggested that people would do well to get bait blocks and to toss a few in the attic and crawl spaces a couple of times a year. Toss them into the farthest corners. Cheap insurance because, in the long run, keeping every single mouse seeking shelter out is impossible. For the few that make it in give them a friendly and tasty dose of poison.
I asked 2 different pest control guys when we first moved in for help in sealing up wherever the mice were getting in to this house - no help forthcoming, at any price. I think some of the mice were here for the 10000 generations since the house was built. That is judging by the pile of turds we found when reroofing. The mice (and squirrels and birds and who knows what other beasties) seemed to think that the shake roof was invitation for habitation. As for poison - I've had limited success. I purchased poison for a new construction that I moved into and started finding blue mouse pellets. In case I was in doubt, a fat, pregnant mouse crawled out onto my office floor and took a dump before my eyes. I ran for something to trap her with, she ran behind some books and disappeared. Now those were some brazen mice. One evening, sitting by the fire reading a book, all snuggled under the blanket, I felt something a little strange. You guessed it - a mouse had crawled into my lap.
I think they heard me scream in Kalamazoo. We sold the house not too long after that and the new owners had 4 cats.
I hate mice - I sure wish I wasn't allergic to cats. I wonder if a snake would survive the winter in our attic.
Edited to add: I wish I could get rid of all nesting materials, but we can't afford to pull out all of that wool insulation that they seem to find so comfy. We are taking care of the water leaks soon. And guess what the plumber suggested? PEX.
Edited 1/6/2006 6:33 pm by aimless
Re: "I think they heard me scream in Kalamazoo." ... "I hate mice"The poor thing was just trying to be friendly. If it was a dog you might think it was cute. Think of the mouse as tiny dog. :)Your not alone. So far, knock on wood, I have avoided critter induced panic. Rats, mice, snakes in various flavors, bats and large roaches by the hundred with only a slight shudder and drawing back. I'm not sure why that is. I'm certainly not braver than average. I know a guy who faced down a small riot with a bender handle but he can't abide roaches. Taking off a panel cover a couple of roaches fell onto his shirt and he just about crawled out of his skin. To his credit he didn't drop the cover and run. He just kind of stiffened up, broke into a sweat and half whispered to 'get them off'. A lot of credit goes to him. Facing deep seated fears with anything like composure is as good as it gets.Had a 300 pound 6'-2" journeyman backed into a corner of a crawlspace panicking and terrified by a mouse. I quickly crawl under armed with a claw hammer figuring I am going to have to fight off an alligator or the creature from the black lagoon. I'm not sure how I'm going to do it but I have got to get my guy out before he damages the house, and they say I'm not a humanitarian, so I chug forward. I get there and a mouse smaller than my thumb has him backed into a corner. He is wild eyed, panicked, sweating and red in the face and is waving his Kleins at the mouse like he is holding off the Mongol hordes.I swat at the mouse with my hat and it makes for cover. Fortunate I guess it didn't run at my guy. I'm not sure the brickwork could take much more and a heart attack seemed a distinct possibility. Took me another ten minutes to calm him down enough to get him out. He was useless for a couple of hours and, the rest of the crew, being sympathetic guys, made some fun. One guy showed up with Mickey Mouse ears and squeaked at him. Thought for sure we were going to have a fight. We found "Mickey Mouse" a long deep ditch. Took months for it to die down. Once a dead snake fell off a beam in a tight crawl space and onto a helpers chest as he shinnied along on his back. Who knew a big guy could get through such a small hole. And so very quickly too. A matter of motivation I guess.
> .... Rats, and their tree bound relatives, squirrels, ....
Reminds me of a line from "Sex and the City":
Squirrels are rats with nicer outfits. ;-)
-- J.S.
Wanted to say that mice will be able to make it through a hole as small as 1/4" and rats can get into a hole as small as a dime.
why anyone would live in Florida? It doesn't even snow there!
I thought that was the "equals sign" for just that question. That waling around Fla with a snow shovel ove your shoulder would get many to either shudder, laugh, or makes signs against the evil . . . <g>
I've heard it alleged that the residential wildlife in Florida is no worse than that in the major cities in the NE--just different (hmm, Pay-per-View: Fla "palm bugs" v. NYC rats . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I just got back from the builder's show to Orlando (drove 4 hours through a blizzard from the wrong airport, and now hope Continental Airlines goes bankrupt and drains the employee pension fund and those of all the employee's children unto the 10th generation in the process, but that's another story...). It was, shudder, in the 50s on Saturday. Folks were wearing wool hats, gloves, parkas....Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
> .... chewed down to three bare copper wires for over a foot.
Definintely the work of a high-impedance rodent. They must all always have had dry fur. And small enough mouths not to bridge between hot and ground.
-- J.S.
If snakes bother you you can go for the wimpy way of getting rid of the mice:http://www.muromachi.com/fst/Forceps/11035-20.htmI'm sure the mice would prefer it. There are going to be a lot of disappointed snakes out there that are going to need a consolation hug. So if you feel something cool and smooth late at night ...
You're saying he chewed the PEX in order to get thru a hole?? Bummer. Around here the typical hole is 1-3/8" with a plastic bushing installed after the pipe goes thru. I suppose it would be easier to chew thru the flange of the bushing than the PEX.
Interesting.
Mice don't chew thru copper.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
It's a radiant system
I was being facetious in that the new wonder material actually had a flaw.
being an instigator
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Mice don't chew thru copper.
And I'm spending lots of time demo'ing parts of a house that had copper plumbing when the furnace was off and the temp was below 32F.jt8
"All men should strive to learn before they die What they are running from, and to, and why." -- James Thurber
Mike,
At my house we have an addition under construction and the mice have managed to get it.
Last night I turned the light switch on in the Kitchen. The light flicker on and off a few times and went off. When I removed the glass under the light I found a lot of mouse turds. Apparently a mouse had nested just above the light fixture, probably to take advantage of the heat put out by the light.
I can't wait to get the construction done an the house sealed up. I have killed about a dozen of the little critters this winter using the rat zapper, a device that electrocutes them.
hey thanks , i'm about to put a system in my mouse infected house. I'll keep them mice in mind.
Wow, that's something that hadn't even entered my mind or anyone's around me, but it makes sense. Pex is becoming extremely popular in the west for radiant heat and general water service so there is a large potential for problems. Mouse proofing is something I'll look out for and make adjustments in as it make sense.
Most small holes within a structure are simply foamed closed. This is probably very easy to chew threw so what do those of you with high mice populations do to seal holes? What kinds of things to you do other than keeping things tight and not running chewables close to potential rodent walking paths?
Cheers,
Don+
Coarse steel wool is commonly used. SS wool in places where rust would be a problem. Plaster or cement will also work. I would think that premixed drywall mud would be relatively good, though something with sand in it would be better -- maybe one of those premixed thinsets.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Don,Coarse steel wool is the old standby. Stainless or bronze wool is spendy, but does not rust like the regular stuff. I have used steel wool stuffed in a hole to stop the rodents/snakes, then foamed inside the steel wool to stop the insects/air from passing through.1/4" hardware cloth and hot mud work well together on some larger holes out of the weather. I have also used bronze wool with polyurethane caulk over/through it to weatherseal and rodent-proof the sill gap behind T-111. The lone mouse trapped inside the house starved and was found dead by the smell, in the unfinished basement. I sold the clients on doing this sealing BEFORE we finished their basement, to prevent bigger problems down the road.Bill
Mice will chew through just about anything, their teeth do not stop growing, rats also, so they have to keep chewing. I had one in my bedroom that ate up all of my cigarettes and chewed up my remote control. What you have to do is get a plan that kills them. Lots of luck.
Rodent infloor heating.
Just another reason to use copper. That stuff ain't Code here, and for good reason.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
"yet another" reason?More like the only conceivable reason, and a pretty weak one at that.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Yeah right. Thats a laugh. Like mice eat copper? I gather from your signature that you are in the PEX industry or use in your field, so your fondness of the product is understood--not exactly unbiased I would say. The fact remains that many large municpalities (indeed some of the largest cities in America) have reviewed PEX and have made the decision that it is not safe. I won't belabor this often debated question here, but the that is a fact. Whether those municipalities are right or wrong will be judged in time and can't be decided here.But copper is a proven product and that fact we don't have to debate.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Pretty much the only places that have not adopted PEX are areas with very strong plumber's unions. I don't see that as unbiased, or coincidence either. It's been used all over the place for twenty years now and certainly doesn't seem to have any health issues. Mice don't eat copper, that's true, but copper leaks easier, is more susceptible to water quality issues, and is more vulnerable to freeze risks. Plus it's more expensive and harder to install. Mice eat electrical wiring too... but we still use that, oddly. Maybe we should be using solid copper bars instead of wire.....-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
But mice won't eat wiring in conduit, and thats why many muncipalities require conduit. I know about a third of them here won't allow Romex, and insist on either flex bx, or hard shell conduit. And no the reasons aren't a strong electrical union. PEX along with other plumbing issues gets reviewed with Building and Saftey every five years. They have stated reasons for refusing the stuff other than the plumbers union. I don't want to get into this argument here, but suffice to say, they think the stuff is unsafe. They have more expertese on the issue than me, and probably more than most of the people on the BB.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Yeah, and besides which, if the current owners of my project house hadn't used copper, the water line probably wouldn't have froze & cracked open and I wouldn't have been able to purchase the house at such a discount.
But you're saying the PEX isn't allowable for PW in LA or CA?
jt8
"The test is to recognize the mistake, admit it and correct it. To have tried to do something and failed is vastly better than to have tried to do nothing and succeeded."-- Dr. Dale Turner
Nope, not in LA--I don't know about other jurisdictions.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Scooter, you couldn't point to an online source for a code citation on that, could you? Strikes me that in your shaky state, PEX might better survive the ground's regular boogie than does copper.
Thanks,Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
The issue is not flexibility. The issue is not mouseability either.Jeez, I didn't want to knock PEX here, because there are so many avid PEX fans that I will get reamed. It like knocking Apple computers, OK? And I don't want to get into it, because I'm just a contractor and not a plumber, OK. But to answer your question, the issue is per the inspectors that I've spoken with is preceived problems with connections, and higher water pressure within the lines than copper of the same size. I am sure there are other reasons, and perhaps FHB could do an article on the pros and cons and interview some of the inspectors in non-Pex states.Please don't respond to me and tell me that copper stinks and PEX is better. I take no opinion on PEX. I just know it ain't Code, and is not likely to be for some time.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
You misunderstood my intent. I'm writing that article you suggested for FHB. You mentioned some issues with PEX, and it would help me out if I had more information. I 'm not trying to bait you into a slug fest over the stuff. I'd like to learn anything you know about problems, or find out how to contact any plumbers or inspectors you know who've had problems with PEX. I hear lots of pro-PEX anecdotes, and I'd like to hear the other side. You should feel free to respond by email if you'd prefer.
Thanks for any light you can shed.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Hi Scooter1 -
"and higher water pressure within the lines than copper of the same size."
I'm curious about that, since that is a benefit of PEX- less pressure loss because of home runs and few elbows and connections. Except for water hammer effect, which is less with PEX than copper because of its resilience, the pressure (during demand) in the system will be maximum at the points closer to plumbing entry point in the house. The fittings that will withstand that pressure will withstand the reduced pressure elsewhere in the system. And the static pressure will be a constant no matter what piping material is used. What are you referring to?
Also - mice will chew plastic for reasons other than gaining entry to a space. Just happened to me a week ago. I heard chewing in the attic at night, set trap, caught mouse. Investigated area and mouse had chewed on a seam in the 6mil vapour barrier. Maybe to nest (I doubt it in this case because the available blown-in insulation was a better nest material) but maybe because it was the easiest thing to chew on and it was starving. After all, starving people will eat shoe leather!
It didn't chew through the plastic, it just chewed along the edge of the overlap where two pieces of poly were taped together on the underside. It entered the atttic for warmth, not food.
Brick and stone houses are susceptible to mice in the attic. They enter the weep holes or other penetrations (in my case electrical LB's, which my builder will be sealing up) where they have a bee line between the sheathing and masonry right up to the attic. The smallest dimension of the skull is what limits the size of the opening that they can pass through, and that can be very small in some cases, particularly when they are young.
- Brian.
ps. - I'm not trying to resurrect the PEX/ copper issue here either.
Edited 1/7/2006 1:57 am ET by markls8
I believe he's saying that copper will withstanding a higher water pressure than PEX will (or, saying that's what the inspectors are saying, more accurately). Say if your PRV from the city lines failed or something. PEX will handle up to 200 psi usually, which should be more than adequate for most situations.edit: My bad, the rating is 160 psi at room temp for regular PEX. Down to 100 psi at 180 degree F.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Edited 1/7/2006 3:22 pm ET by NRTRob
I think the supposed, I don't know, pressure advantage PEX has is more a question of internal resistance to flow caused by turbulence and the roughness of the interior of the pipes or tubes. I do know, simple enough to look up, there is a difference in the constant used for calculating head-loss with copper at 130 and "polyethylene" at 140. I'm not sure if PEX falls properly under "polyethylene". My reference is a few years old so PEX was even less common.There may also be some substantial difference in turbulence caused by the sharper turns copper's fittings make compared to the wider sweeping turns PEX is typically bent into to negotiate corners.There is also the fact that PEX will commonly have fewer fittings in any particular run from source to use. Usually this is cited as increasing reliability, arguably it does as joints are a common point for leaks, but seldom is the question of internal friction applied. Simply put every joint is a source of internal turbulence and thus friction. Even given all other things being the same the run with the fewest joints will offer less resistance and so higher delivery rate and pressure at the point of use.
Andy, I'm don't do new houses and only occasionally do a new addition. Most of my work is plumbing service. The problem I see, is that down the road I'll be asked to add a washroom sink and need to connect to the existing PEX. With so many brands that require special tools and fittings, I'll need a tractor trailer just to carry all that stuff. Until they standardize, I don't see myself changing from copper.
PEX is popular because it doesn't take much talent for someone to install it. Drill some holes, string the pipe and crimp the ring over the fitting. It may resist corrosion better than copper, but the fittings are still metal. Let's revisit this discussion when PEX has been around for fifty odd years as copper has. I'm still "old school" and like to stand back and admire my work.
mike
Thanks for your comments. Could you tell me it what I say next is wrong in your experience?
From what I've been reading, PEX comes in standard copper tubing diameters, 3/8 in., 1/2 in., etc, no matter the manufacturer. Consequently, one manufacturer's fittings will fit anybody else's PEX, if I understand what the PEX Tubing Association's website says. What won't interchange are the crimping tools, but so what? Assuming you're just going to snip off an existing fitting and replace it with another of whatever brand you prefer?
Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Most tubing is rated to the same ASTM standards and fittings for one ASTM standard will fit another MFG's pipe rated to the same standard.However fittings may not be compatible with each other. For instance one MFG's compression fitting may not fit another MFG's manifold.But pipe and fittings are basically interchangable. when in doubt, a compression or crimp fitting is pretty foolproof.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
However fittings may not be compatible with each other. For instance one MFG's compression fitting may not fit another MFG's manifold.
Straighten me out here, I haven't used a manifold... I just assumed the manifold had a compression fitting for each port. So all you'd need to connect to it would be a cleanly cut pex tube end. In which case the manufacturer of the PEX wouldn't matter?
jt8
"The test is to recognize the mistake, admit it and correct it. To have tried to do something and failed is vastly better than to have tried to do nothing and succeeded."-- Dr. Dale Turner
As long as the fitting and the adapter or manifold are the same MFG, they are basically interchangable with other brands of PEX yes. So you can use Wirsbo Manifold and Fittings with Safelink pipe, or Rehau pipe, or Wirsbo pipe with Rehau manifold and fittings... etc.I would, as much as possible, stick with compression fittings rather than proprietary fitting technologies in that case, however. They are a bit more "universal".Note also that's PEX... PEX-AL-PEX seems to be a bit more finicky about fittings being from the same MFG, and I haven't tried much mix and matching there.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
One question to ask is whether there are any problems with adding on to old PEX installations. I can readily cut and solder new stuff onto 30 year old copper. But does PEX get brittle with age? Any experience out there with old PEX?
-- J.S.
No direct experience, but they've been making the stuff since 1956. That predates me just a couple of years, and I'm showing few signs of brittleness.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Andy ,If you aim top do any repairs on old pex get Kytec fittings and some copper Ts if you have to ad onto a manifold. The only popriatory tool for Kytec is the reamer , but any reamer will do the job . If you are doing a new job insist on Kytec fittings with anyones pipe. Kytec fittings have Orings to fit the ID of the pipe and a compresson Ferrel and nut for the outside .
I would never use a crip ring fitting to many chances for a problem.
Thanks, Don. Sounds like you have some experience with the stuff?Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
what's the big whup with kitec fittings?Lots of manufacturers have good companies machining fittings these days. Also if I'm not mistaken Kitec (a PEX AL PEX) is not exactly the same size as other pipes out there... not too sure the O-ring on the inside is a big help or not?Not saying Kitec is bad... it's a fine product line... but why so special in your eyes?-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
First it fits snug over the fitting . second , has orings to seal the joint .
Then it has the ferrel and nut on the outside that clamps the hose tight .
And the big one IT DOES NOT REQUIRE A NEW EXPENSIVE TOOL FOR EACH SIZE OF PIPE THAT YOU USE.
I can use standard copper fittings to make a manifold of any size needed.
I have used Kitec and Radiantec and what ever brand Menards has had on hand and they all fit the Kitec fitting. Maybe others don't fit ,I could not tell you that for sure.
I do believe that there are others that make simalar fittings but I have used the Kitec and tried some of the crip ring fittings . For me Kitec is the best solution .
Sheeze, Don, you a source for stone info AND PEX?!
What kinda PEX have you run? PW, radiant floors, et al?
jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
So far just radiant heat . I love warm floors. Hate leaks and crimp fittings look like a leak waiting to happen.
So far just radiant heat . I love warm floors. Hate leaks and crimp fittings look like a leak waiting to happen.
I've had to replace a few of the old, grey, crimped lines, so I have the same feeling towards crimped fittings. Don't know how the PEX crimps hold up, but I haven't had too many compression fittings fail, so I've been considering PEX with homeruns.
Do you know of any PEX restrictions in your area?
jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
I don't know of any but that does not mean that the slow thinking gubment goofs do not have them stuck in a code or two.
Leaks are why I like the Kitec compression fittings.
Rob, Maybe you can answer this or make something up for me to tell DW. We talked rfh issues and now I have a pex question. I bought a house that was empty for the better part of a year. It had been retrofitted with wirsbo stem to stern a few years ago. The street water pressure was at 110-120 psi so I cut into the system to add a pressure regulator to save on the appliances, etc. I found a strange corrosion in the fittings (see the picture) and i'm not sure what it is. (Legionella?) We have city water and haven't ever had a corrosion issues with copper.The other thing seems to be answered here - will the crimp fittings be OK with 120 psi on the line? (before the regulator).
Edited 1/10/2006 11:13 pm ET by sweetlake
No pic.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
patience... I'm only a man...
I didn't wait for the picture to upload - here it is
Ted
Sorry
be hurried
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Edited 1/10/2006 11:37 pm ET by razzman
I haven't personally seen that before, but it looks like it occurred on the brass fitting (or, are you using PLS fittings)?Looks like some kind of mineral buildup to me, but I'm not a water quality issue expert. wirsbo's expansion fittings are stronger than the pipe. as long as you're below the tubing PSI rating and the fittings are installed decently, they should hold.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
OK, there's white stuff in there. But is it gooey or crunchy? How hard is the water? Does the city issue a water quality report, like LADWP does? Do many folks have water softeners? My first guess would be minerals coming out of solution.
-- J.S.
No hard water, no minerals (never had anything like this before) was powdery after it dried, I guess that means it was gooey. It's only on the brass, not the pex. The water is clorinated and floridated. Water softeners aren't used. Like I mentioned before the house sat empty for a long time.
> .... was powdery after it dried, I guess that means it was gooey. It's only on the brass, not the pex.
Was the brass darker and redder under where the powder was? If so, my guess now would be zinc oxide or some other zinc compound. My theory would be that something in the water is reacting with the zinc in the brass, and probably leaving the copper behind.
-- J.S.