moving vent to adjacent stud bay
pulper_11
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Hopefully you can tell what i’m asking based on the picture.
I’d like to move the vent to the stud bay to the right of where it is currently.
This to me doesn’t appear to be a DIY job (correct me if I’m wrong), especially considering I’m not even sure it’s possible without having a large impact on the air flow if using bends in the hvac system.
Just trying to get some feedback from others here before I go hunting for an HVAC expert to do this. I realize that the electrical in the new bay will have to be rerouted.
This move will add additional space for the shower without the shower door being right in the middle of the vent!
Thank you for your time.
Replies
can you take pictures, tracing back the supply pipe? It depends where that comes up from below?
If you cannot get access to the other end of the duct and see how to replace it without cutting structure, you can just move the end in the wall you have exposed.
understand you are removing the 2x4 so want some kind of header to take care of the load.
it is not that hard to DIY and one more turn will not be the end of the world. Make sure you have good gloves, it is pretty easy to cut up your fingers on cut sheet metal.
You can sketch out what you want and have a local sheet metal shop make one, or you can cobble together some sheet metal from the local home improvement store. with enough screws and foil tape it will do the job, even if a skilled HVAC tech would roll eyes at it. silicone caulk covers a lot of sins too.
You also can consider the wall behind the photographer, if it provides a good place for the register. nothing sacred about a particular wall in a room.
I still have a couple of questions I'm hoping can get answered here.
1) I need a little help regarding where to add the header. So, the stud that is attached to the right hand side of the duct will be cut from the current top of the vent to the sole plate. Right now there is a 2x4 attached to the top of the vent. I'm thinking I would need to have a longer 2x4 than that one so that it spans both stud bays, and then have the stud to the right of the current vent location fastened to the middle of that 2x4. Hopefully my description makes sense. Does this sound correct?
2) Instead of attaching a curved transition, could i do the following:
close off the current opening of the vent.
cut an opening on the right side of the duct so that air will move to the stud bay to the
right.
use duct to surround the new opening and attach that duct to a boot on the right side?
Again, hope that makes sense.
Thanks again for your time.
thanks for the responses! glad i wrote in here.
regarding the area behind the photographer, the duct goes back beyond that wall so any work there would require additional demo etc as it is in another room. I was hoping to avoid that.
UncleMike42, thanks for the detailed response. I really appreciate it. I still might hire someone for this but at least it sounds possible now. i will go this route.
Thanks so much.
You can buy something like these, and a register boot (or reuse what you take from the existing bay, perhaps)
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Broan-3-25-in-x-11-75-in-Galvanized-Steel-Rectangle-Duct-Elbow/3623364
for the framing, the horizontal 2x4s installed now are blocking, and all they do is keep the vertical members from moving relative to each other.
You need a header to hold up the cut wall stud (and whatever is over it). The header going to be a bit beefier than the blocking.
At a minimum, the horizontal framing member you put in over the register/sheet metal combination needs to sit vertical and doubled up. I would make it at least a doubled 2x6, and make sure it ends up sitting on jack studs. You can remove the doubled stud next to the light switch and cut it so the header sits securely, and add another jack under the header in the next bay. The actual structure this header needs depends on what is above the wall, and how much load it carries.
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2001/03/15/anatomy-of-a-stud-framed-wall
Thanks Mike for the reply! I went into the attic yesterday to see if this is a load bearing wall (and also, unfortunately, to start removing the blown-in cellulose above this bathroom), and the joists in the attic run parallel to the wall. I was thrown off originally b/c of the double top plate, thinking that this would be load bearing, but it turns out that it isn't. Pretty good news!
Hey Mike - back to this issue now! I'm wondering if you could take a look at this item, instead of the Lowes one you listed above:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-10-in-x-3-1-4-in-90-Degree-Rectangular-Elbow-LW90E10X3-25/100146831
It appears to be something that will work. However, my duct is about 3.5x11.5. Therefore this appears to be too short. But when I look at the Lowes one you listed above, it states that it's 3.25x11.75, but in the description indicates that it's the same size as the one from HD (3.25x10).
Any ideas about this?
Appreciate your help. Thank you.
Something like that will work. Get some foil tape and seal up the edges, and once you put the wall finish up, no one will know about a quarter inch other than yourself.
Sorry it took me a while to get back to you.
Bigger is better, but not the end of the world.
You also could just make a box, get a couple sections of rectangular bay and some sheet metal sheers and climb the sheet metal fabrication curve. Just be careful That stuff is sharp.
Here are a couple photos from a couple weeks ago when I moved a cold air return closer to the floor in my basement
Hey Mike - Thanks for the reply! Sorry I am late here as well. Other stuff happened and I also had to order the item special.
I've attached a few pics here. Some of the pics are of the attachment just placed over the ductwork so you can see what I'm left with. Still of course have to deal with cutting the studs.
Now I'm having trouble picturing what I will need to buy to attach to this to get a vent in the next stud bay. In doing some looking at the local HD I came across an item (a couple of pics attached of that as well) that would be good but would result in a vent being vertical in the wall rather than horizontal. Of course that's not what i want but perhaps it might give some ideas to you as to what I could go with? Perhaps I need to do some sheet metal cutting for this? Of course I know that I'll have to move the electrical in the next stud bay. I've been working on getting that ready in the meantime.
BTW, the length of the attachment loosely placed in the pictures is 1.5 inches shorter than the current duct. That's 0.75" in each side. Not sure if that is a huge issue or not.
Any advice? Again, I really appreciate the help here.
Any ideas? Hoping someone will chime in here. Thanks.
With a drawing showing air flow and framing members and dimensions should be all you need if you go to their shop. Service call might be a big minimum. But if you are working at your job, time is money.
Structurally I’d look at what’s above and more than likely just cut off the stud in the way, flat plate it top/bottom to allow for the ductwork. Then remember what you did when you hang the board.
Why don’t you contact a real hvac contractor. Many will be able to bend you up exactly what you need. Up, over and a horizontal opening. You can have them make it so there’s male/female ends or use couplings and tape (not cloth “duct tape”).
Should have mentioned it earlier but as a remodeler I would have probably looked to see if I could find parts to cobble it up also.
All you’ll need is a detailed dimension drawing and some $.
I think you're right Calvin. I'll have to have someone come and do this for me. I was hoping that there might be a relatively easy way to do it ("cut the sheet metal this way", etc) but this is getting into an area that I have pretty much no knowledge about (though that hasn't stopped me before). I do know a good hvac person here in Michigan who did my furnace for me and some gas lines, so i think that's the next step. Not sure how much $ it will be but if I can't do it, I have to come up with it!
Thanks for the reply! Have a good one.
Thanks a lot Calvin for your help on this. I think I'll try Mike's solution but if I run into problems here I'll definitely be going the HVAC route, and I didn't even think of just providing them the dimensions and having them make something for me, which I would think would save some $. I appreciate your help.
I was on a short vacation last week.
No shame in calling an HVAC person.
I was thinking that you might be able to put two of those right angle parts to get into the next bay, and reuse the original duct box (fed from the top, vs the bottom)
Probably have to extend the rectangular bay up a bit into the wall to do this.
would be better if the dimensions match, but not the end of the world if you can get it close and seal it all up. foil tape is good, just don't try to use the cloth stuff they call duct tape, it really is not useful for such applications.
with the extra angles, you will loose some air flow, but not critical. It is good to try to seal up whatever the final product is so you get flow out your grate, and not in the wall and up to the attic.
Thanks Mike. I just have a really hard time with 3 dimensional stuff in my head. Getting old, I guess! i didn't even think of using a second one of these and having it point up instead of down in the adjacent stud bay. Obviously that will make the vent higher but i'm thinking i can live with that. I appreciate your response and help with this!
Can you cut the horizontal joist and elbow the duct over to the next bay?
Cut the joist?
Yes...but notice I asked if it was an option. I'm an AC guy, not a structural engineer.
Luckily Mike added some info about it.
Many plumbers and hvac guys have brutalized a framers structure with their quick fix. And realize that these threads get read by less experienced folks that might take this stuff as gospel.
Sure, you can eliminate some framing, cut into it and head it off, bore a hole but like you suggest it might take some engineering or qualified experience.
But hey, welcome to Breaktime. At one time a good place for camaraderie and a sucker punch.
cutting a floor joist is asking for lots of trouble.
the rules for putting holes in a floor joist are pretty clear.
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/05/13/running-pipes-through-joists
I was thinking that you could re-use the box you took off the left side, and use it upside down on the right side.
would need two of the right angle sections, and a length of straight duct. they come as an L cross-section, so that two snap together. but one should be long enough if you cut it.
of course a pair of suitable sheet metal shears will be needed,
and it would be better if you can find the sheet metal fittings that match the rectangle cross section.
This approach would move the header up the wall some.
a local sheet metal shop could make something cleaner. but the onus would be on you to measure everything correctly.
On the DIY side, this is probably one of those multiple trips to the store jobs.
Thanks Mike for the advice and the drawing! I didn't even think of that! Like I mentioned earlier, I have problems with seeing this in my head before doing it. This helps out a bunch!
And when you move the wires, make sure the ends are in an accessible box. if a closet is in the wall behind, that is a fine place for the wiring box cover.
Another great piece of advice!
I was going to cut the wire in the basement and have the junction box there (available as it is unfinished) and then continue the current wire from there and moving it to another bay, but there IS a closet on the other side and although I'll be working on that closet sometime in the far future, putting the junction box in the closet really makes this much easier.
I wish I could put the junction box in the attic but with the blown in cellulose insulation it would be very difficult in the future to find and/or work on. If I didn't have the blown in insulation there now, it would be so much easier doing work in the attic. I wish I had just gone with fiberglass or the roxul.
Thanks again.
OK. Have had other issues so just got back to this. I've posted a pic or two of how this looks put together (just on the floor for now). I decided to get all smaller rectangular parts so that they fit the angled parts. I also had to learn about the s and drive clips, and had fun cutting and getting these to work. not really - just being sarcastic!
I'm going to deal with the wall now but before I do that I thought I'd post this to see if there are any further recommendations on the fitting here. It unfortunately is a little angled out on the left but (unless you disagree) I think I'll see how this works in the wall cavity before trying to fix that.
My plan now is to deal with the wall, add the mastic and tape on the connections between the pieces, add tape along the edges (where the pieces snap together) and then connect it all.
I appreciate your help so far. Please let me know if you have any other suggestions or comments.
Oh, and one more question - the ductwork in the joist bay was laying on some thin insulation that's pretty old. it's labeled "frame proof cotton insulation". is that helpful/necessary?
Thanks again!
Not sure about the cotton. Glad it is not asbestos. You could replace it with some fiberglass if you want. You can also use some plastic pipe hanger strap to keep the duct suspended in the joist cavity. Metal duct work does expand and contract a bit over the heating/cooling cycle. I get a pop or click once in a while.
Looks pretty good to me overall. It will seem more like fun in a year or so, as you look back with pride and satisfaction.
Good plan to dry-fit and see how it looks in the wall before sealing up the duct work.
You might want to secure this assembly to your new header
Remember you might have a bit of wiggle room between the register cover and the box.
Thanks Mike for your continued help here! much appreciated. I agree that it's satisfying to look back on what you've accomplished after it's done. Can still be pretty darn frustrating while doing it. I can't tell you how many times one of the pieces came apart while trying to hammer the c/drive clip shut on another. What I found was helpful was leaving the ends of the drive clip longer as it made them easier to hammer closed without ruining the duct work.
I'm not sure but perhaps the insulation wasn't there to deal with keeping the heating/cooling in the duct work, but was for fire blocking. I'm assuming that the fiber glass insulation also helps in this regard, so I might just use that.
Thanks again for your help.
I have a couple carpentry questions here. This is probably carpentry 101 but since I never graduated that course, I have to ask. lol. i'm learning by doing with your help!
As this is not a load bearing wall, and per Calvin's suggestion, I flat plated the header here with two 2x4s together. Right now none of this (the header or jack studs) is screwed/nailed in and the duct work is just dry fitted.
I'm not sure the best way to attach the extra lumber here. My guess here is that the jack studs are toe-nailed in with 16d nails at the bottom. Then I'd attach the highest 2x4 header to the cripple stud by nailing through the bottom of the 2x4 into the cripple using 16d nails. i'm concerned though that I'd split the cripple when I nail it in. Finally I'd attach the other 2x4 header and nail through the entire header into the top of the jack studs using 16d nails. again I'm concerned about splitting the top of the jack studs.
I know this is probably real simple for you guys but I'm hoping someone will help me out with this. After all this work I don't want to screw up the wall, although as someone once told me - it's just wood - you can get more of it.
Thanks for all your help so far! I appreciate and can't believe how far I've gotten b/c of it.
This what I would do. Put in the tin after i completed as much of the blocking as possible. Of course, that assumes the tin will go in after.
Either way, I’m installing “lath catcher” and a block to hold the cut stud. (I would have left the stub block attached to the plate ((of the cut stud)). )
Toe nail with a gun if possible, predrill and toe screw the rest (or screw). You are holding drywall for the most part, so simplify the install. You don’t want to bash the crap out of what’s already there,
And of course, the best of luck!
Edit: I would get some medium duty “L” metal and fasten that over the cut plate where your duct comes up from the floor. Something to prevent you from driving a nail through the basebd and into the duct.
Thanks Calvin for your reply! A few questions here:
Lath catcher, based on what I've read elsewhere here in searching, is also I believe referred to as drywall backer or butt-board. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are you suggesting that I put that behind the cut stud, screw the lath catcher into the drywall behind it, and then toe-screw the cut stud into the lath catcher?
It is too difficult to fit the tin in after all framing is done, but I can toe-screw the jack studs in beforehand. I don't have a nail gun so I'll pre-drill and use construction screws to toe-screw. Sound right?
Finally, I'm not clear on what you refer to when you're talking about "L" metal at the base. I'm assuming you're referring to the bottom left area of the picture where's there is an opening in the sill plate. I'm not sure what and where I'd be protecting by having metal covering that area. When I screw in the sub-floor, I'd glue and screw that to the joists, so I'm not seeing the danger. I apologize but I'm just not following this. I'm sure it's me just not understanding. If you can give a bit more explanation, that would be great! Thank you!
Sorry for the delay, more fun moving firewood.
I used the term lath catcher for anything to fasten your drywall to that’s not structural. There’s already too many technical words in the English language.
Glue, screw and tattoo. Non structural framing parts and drywall patches.......make them stay in place and support them so when done they won’t crack, fall off, or give during normal activity.
The L metal is a strip I suggested fastening down to the subfloor where your plate was cut out. Fastened to the floor with the L upper leg taking the place of the plate.
You’re doing fine!
Now, get all that covered up before you lose your cat.
I would not try to nail any of it, but use some framing screws. (my hammering skills are not up to what they could be)
if you have some C clamps (or other clamps) use them to hold the parts in place and then screw with a VS drill. Practice on a couple scraps to see how it feels. A long screwdriver extension works wonders.
I would think about using some construction adhesive to tie the two flat header parts to each other, and a half dozen screws to hold them to each other.
the lath catcher seems a good idea. short stud up from the plate, under the upside down sheet metal U you are putting in. screw in from the other side too, (closet if I remember) Just to give the drywall something to hold on to in the middle.
A few dabs of construction adhesive is not a bad idea, once you know it all fits.
Thanks to both of you (Calvin and Mike) for your help here! I was actually thinking that the "lath catcher" would go behind the cut stud to anchor it. it took me a bit to understand that it's to be attached to the bottom plate and up to (and just below) the duct work, plumb with where the cut stud is. I know that's what Mike indicated here, but with my limited understanding it took me a few times to read it!
I'm not sure how I can attach it though. It it's a 2x4 like the stud, I can toe screw it in but that wouldn't be secure. Mike's comment about screwing from the other side (which is the closet - good memory) is going to be pretty difficult. Without tearing up the wall in the closet, I don't know how I'll be able to screw into the narrow side of a 2x4 on the other side of the wall (in the bathroom). Or would I use something other than a 2x4 (perhaps two 2x4s attached with the long side butted up against the wall)?
That comment about the cat was funny. Luckily I don't own one or else this would be an interesting (and potentially hazardous) reno.
Thanks again.
by the other side, I just meant to sink a drywall screw into the short stud from the closet side. (put a screw in from the open side before you put the stud there, and you will know where to put the screw)
When I cut out a stud in my basement wall to slide XPS behind it, I put the stud back into place with a gob (technical term.) of construction adhesive top and bottom, and held it in place overnight. My wall, (like yours) does not hold anything except the drywall and some wires.
You could just set the short vertical 2x4 in place with some adhesive on the back closet side without the screw, and along the plate as well. (a screw or two in the back of the closet would hold it and remove any concern with slippage while the adhesive sets.)
an inch or so length of 2x4 could also be set against the bottom and glued to the vertical stud and the bottom plate. (like a glue block)
Make a little T out of scrap 2x. and just glue it together with your construction adhesive. wait overnight and play with it. Make one with a screw or two and see how they compare.
Perhaps a sketch will help.
Thanks Mike, Calvin, and catmandeux (for the sketch).
I've attached the photo of how it is now. i ran into a couple problems here and there but nothing insurmountable. for example, i glued and screwed the 2 2x4s for the header, and then realized that i needed to attach them to the jack stud and should have done that with only one 2x4 first. the longest screws i had were 3". so, unscrewed and unglued, waited for glue to dry, took off as much as i could, and then tried again. the fitting was so tight between the cut stud and the header that i had to use a mallet. b/c of this, i just screwed the two 2x4s together well.
screwing through the drywall in the closet worked well. also attached the blocking and the lath catcher.
i think it looks pretty good now. the only thing i think i need to do is figure out how to anchor this beast to the framing. i have left over ducting including the "ears" from the original vent. Should I just cut them off and attach one side to the duct and the other to the framing, in a couple of places?
thanks again for your help. Never would have been at this spot without you guys!
Way to go! Victory is at hand. Gives you another appreciation for “remodeling” I bet.
When you nail off your basebd, remember to not put a nail into/through your ductwork! That slight whistle you might hear.......
You don't need too much to hold it. a strap or two made of sheet metal will do. If you hang it so the register box opening is close to level, it will help the final looks.
one thing is to think about where the screws for the register cover will go. if they can catch some sheet metal, it would hold the register tight.
(and I think it looks like a fine job. almost a shame to cover it up.)