this thread is started from some posts in the charging for estimates thread
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=47320.50
a little role playing dealing with charging for customers
not intended for just two people
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bobl Volo, non valeo
This compact detatched accessory dwelling has an efficient layout with a vaulted ceiling that enhances the sense of space.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Hello, Mr contractor,
we want to remodel our kitchen
could you call us to talk about it?
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bobl Volo, non valeo
Sure, we can talk about it, kitchen remodels are right up my ally, done a few of them locally for folks you might know.
How far along are you in the planning process? Do you have plans prepared by a design professional? Do you have a pretty good feel for the "look" you are after? Have you selected cabinets, flooring and appliances?
Do you have a sense of when you'd like this project completed?
Do you have an idea of how much you can spend?
Do you have financing available?
Do you mind if I ask how you got my name?
Edited 9/17/2004 10:10 am ET by jim blodgett
Do you have an idea of how much you can spend?
Do you have financing available?
Well, we would like to get some idea of the costs before we decide how much we can afford.
John (on behalf of the HO's that he gets call from)
John, I understand your fears about spending more than you can really afford, but realistically what you can afford is what you can afford and foes not reflect on what is available.
By deciding what you want to spend before you start, you will be better able to pick and choose from the avilable options.
Have you done any research into financing beyond your savings yet, or are we dealing with a fixed budget?
You and your wife could be thinking of starting with a repaint and refacing of cabinets for around $5,000 or more.
To change the floor plan and install custom cabinets and wall treatments with a new floor covering, the sky is the limit.
How much are you considering investing in your new kitchen?
SamT
Sir, I can design a project to match just about any budget you care to come up with. There are lots of different ways to remodel a kitchen; with a little creative thinking we can come up with something that looks nice and works well, even if your budget is fairly restricted.
On the other hand, if this is to be your dream kitchen and nothing but the best will do, I can help you design and build something that could possibly wind up in the pages of Fine Homebuilding (see my hat? See? See?)
Essentially, we're talking about anywhere from a couple of grand on up to 50 or 60 thousand. It's entirely up to you, sir.
(Now that's a 'free estimate'. This step is simply to establish whether we're playing on the local school's ball-diamond, or in Yankee Stadium. The next step gets us into the right ballpark, and we refine it from there.)Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
How far along are you in the planning process?
We've looked at cabinets in various places. we like contempory/mordern things. and we want white cabinets.
Do you have plans prepared by a design professional?
no. we did go to a kitchen design place. didn't really like what they had. talked some prliminary stuff. at the time we just wanted to remove and replace the cabinets. they gave us an estimate of $13K. this is a 9 1/2 x 13 kitchen. wall to wall. two 30 inch base cabinets, a 39 inch sink cabinet, a 24 inch cabinet and some uppers. we figure we should get a lot more that kind of money. so we 're thinking addong some skylights and making a cathedral ceiling. this is a ranch style house.
Do you have a pretty good feel for the "look" you are after?
yes, we like mordern/comtempory. think ,aybe one of those pull out pantries.
Have you selected cabinets, flooring and appliances?
cabinets no, but we're thinking hardwood floors about 100 sq feet. and maybe a subzero refrig, a tainless stove, 6 burner, amd a stainless dishwasher. we know this s more than a remove and replace. but what we'ed like to do.
Do you have a sense of when you'd like this project completed?
we do Christmas at our house each year. so we need a functioning kitchen in time for that or wait till after that.
Do you have an idea of how much you can spend?
yes, but it is more a question of what makes sense with what we want.
Do you have financing available?
yes
Do you mind if I ask how you got my name?
saw your signs around town._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
How much do you want to spend? The problem isn't how much we want to spend, but what we can get for our money. We want new cabs, wood floors, commercial appliances, stone counters. We would obviously like to spend less rather than more to get the kitchen we want, but we don't know how much the kitchen we want will cost. We're not willing to compromise and put in a kitchen that doesn't do it for us, but that doesn't mean we're ready to write a blank check either.
So, how much will the kitchen we want cost? If we understand it and it seems reasonable, we're ready to go. If it seems exhorbitant, then we either keep shopping or go back to the drawing board.
How did we get your name? From a good friend, Joe. What you don't know, however, is that Joe told us that you (pick one) did good work, but he though you gouged him a bit, was annoyed on those days you didn't show. was unhappy with your clean-up, thought the job took too long, didn't like your floor guy, etc. And I'm not going to tell you. By the way, I think Joe has taste up his butt.
Do I have a design? Sure, one from every contractor, designer, architect, friend, neighbor, big box store, unknown person in the aisle at Depot, etc. And each of them told me that their design was the only one that would work, though each was completely different. And each told me that the other designs stunk. wouldn't work. And none of them gave me a woody. And my head is spinning and I have no clue. And if one more person dumps one more think on my shoulders, I'm gonna pull out the 12 gauge and take my chances.
I have to charge you to prepare a proposal, because I will put in hours of work to get it right. But I don't have a clue if I want to use you, if you are any good, if you're some smooth talking lying scum or my savior. I'm just trying to get it right, find the right person, find someone I can trust, get a fair price, and I don't know you from Adam and how the hell am I supposed to know that I want to pay you to design something for me, and not one of the 23 other contractors who my dearest friends have recommended to me.
SHG
It's obvious to me that you just don't want to do your own homework.
You want someone else to write your term paper so you can see it before you decide to pay them for it.
I just can't see you and my company being a good fit for each other, perhaps I can reccommend xhanmmerandnailsx to you.
I think you and he would be perfect for each other.
SamT
"You want someone else to write your term paper so you can see it before you decide to pay them for it."
Sam, that's a good analogy, except there are actually 3 papers to be researched, composed. and written.
How many times have each of us had the: "Well, why don't you figure out how much it would cost to do it the three different ways we discused. Oh. And if we buy the ........ or if you buy them - for each price."
"Sure, Mrs. Smith. I'l just run home and threw a few things in a suit case, give my wife your number if she needs me, and use your guest room for a day or two."
Homework: No one likes it, andt if you can get someone else to do it for you , that's Great!
It's obvious to me that you just don't want to do your own homework.
didn't do our homework?
I said about design "Sure, one from every contractor, designer, architect, friend, neighbor, big box store, unknown person in the aisle at Depot, etc. And each of them told me that their design was the only one that would work, though each was completely different. And each told me that the other designs stunk. wouldn't work. And none of them gave me a woody. And my head is spinning and I have no clue. And if one more person dumps one more think on my shoulders, I'm gonna pull out the 12 gauge and take my chances."
I'm totally confused and trying to get out from being confused. Just what is it you call homework? I've talked to a lot of people._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
didn't do our homework?
Congratulations. You talked yourself out of a job with some very reasonable but overwhelmed people. Hardly an unusual situation with a major renovation. Somehow, I don't think that was the goal.
Of course, they could have turned out to be malcontents like Andy, just whining away like blubbering babies about their pencil-like island. Wonder what you used for the template, pal. Next time, keep your baggy shorts around yer waist and they won't make the same mistake.
SHG
OK Mr. SHGLAW,
I have to agree with you as hard as that be for me to do...lol.
I just ordered over $30,000 in cabs for my kitchen (contractor price).
I've been doing this work a long time, yet.......when we went over the order in person at the showroom all seemed fantastic.
Less money cause the doors were to be all painted rather than different finishes, The doors they said I wanted were NOT the doors I said I wanted ....the size of the island they said I wanted wasnt to look like an eight foot toothpick as they claimed I asked for (we sent them a plan WITH measurements)...all of the above lowered the price that they'd get back to us with in a day or two.
The kitchen designer is now off on her honeymoon for two weeks and the supposid salesperson is an idiot (yet polite...pee U)and we're refusing to sign off on the job.
Theyre asking us for almost another two grand in extras. Yeh right!!!!
And no one to talk to for yet another two weeks....and the cabs take almost four months to have built.
I'm just about ready to pull the plug and get my deposit back if they even peep to me.... theyre worse than painters....
Anyway..bottom line is to hire a pro that is well versed and not try and do it yourself....I've been doing this for about thirty years and its a never ending nightmare when you deal with new salespeople.
I even know someone that has a hard time hiring painters as easy as that seems to do ; )~
Interestingly enough my kitchen will be about dbl the size of a normal kitchen for about thirty grand (minus counters,installation. and appliances etc etc).
I ask how much for a "make up" set of cabs for DW in the master bedroom....about eight feet long.....ten grand....hmmmmm...and we;re not talking anything real fancy here.
Guess they figured they had me....not! Guess I figure....get my shop together sooner than later.
BE well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I haven't read thru the whole thread yet ...
but I do know I've just closed my briefcase and left your house.
I don't think we'll be a goof fit working together.
even if you didn't say in words what you typed ...
trust me ... I read it.
Gotta run ...
literally ... run away. Whcih is what I though before walking into your kitchen ...
I'm on graud around lawyers and doctors ... engineers .... some other professions too ...
but mostly lawyers.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
See, that's what I figured this was all about. If the customer responds, "oh, Mr. Contractor, you're just the greatest thing that ever was," you get to charge 'em for the proposal and feel all warm and fuzzy.
If the customer looks at you cross-eyed, you bail. It has nothing to do with the customer being a lawyer, doctor, or whatever. It has to do with you getting all nervous when the customer doesn't play it your way. Which is fine if you don't mind walking away from any customer who doesn't think your the ginchiest.
By the way, before I hire someone, I tell them to be real careful what they say they can do, because I'm going to expect them to do it. Then I give them a chance to bail if they can't live up to their talk. Then another. If they still want the job after 3 chances to bail, I consider them. No one has ever walked. Few have lived up to their promises, though most try their best. You can't blame a man who has done his best.
SHG
Wow... didn't this start as a roleplay game? I was really liking some of the give and take until it turned nasty. Too bad, it was really quite informative up to that point...
i don't know , paul... it ain't so much "nasty" as "real"..
hell.. i bet i could get SHG to pay for my Proposal.. but probably not in moot court..
only in real lifeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
shg... first i hate calling you shg...... i'd rather call you sheldon.... or whatever your real name is..
call me up and ask me to come over to talk about your project...
i'll be back after chorus practiseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Mike, the name is Scott. Sorry about the SHG thing. It goes back to the beginning of the old Breaktime board, before the tavern days.
the thing that nobody wants to remember here is that getting paid for proposals has to exist in the real world of contractors, wherever they are and for whatever clientele they serve. Same is true for lawyers, but that's not the point here. Even if everybody is absolutely right about lawyers, what does that do for contractors?
3G for a design from a contractor that the customer has yet to decide to use? If you can get it, you are da man. I'm having a real hard time seeing that happen. I think bobl's point was well taken. It's easy to play the role among a bunch of people who are all in agreement. Take it on the road and see how it works for you. You may find that it does. You may also find yourselves losing some excellent work. It's up to you whether you want to take the chance, and whether you think you, in your area, with your clientele and your competition, can do it.
Scott
Scott,
Role playing without a stated purpose is fruitless, well, almost, I did get to practice a little bit.
bobl, knows what he wants, and it's in the $100k -$150k range but he's still thinking 40k, so I need to do a little educating there.
You just seemed to be intent on saying no, no matter what we tried.
Tis GC/Ho game is not like a resteraunt, where personnalities can only clash for an hour, it is a long, though finite, term relationship, where we must get along with each other.
The first free interview, not a consulting, is to see if we can mesh personality wise. Me and my crew are going to be in your face everyday from 7am to 4:30, untyil this project is fininshed.
This project, remodeling your house, is one of the most stressful times of your lives. It can and does breakup marriages. It causes ulcers. It will cost you more than anything you have ever bought since you bought you house. It lasts forever! Or at least it seems that way after the first week.
It costs my business $100/hour to have someone be with you. I don't mind paying that money for one hour to see if we can have a successful RELATIONSHIP. If we don't click right away, I can't afford to spend money trying to change you or me and my crew. After that hour I have to either gamble that you will hire me to manage your project and charge my successful sales for the time I wasted on you (10 to 100 hours) or sell you on paying for the labor and effort it takes to create a materials list, a plan of work, and pricing all that out.
But, what is so hard about making a materials list? Well, let's just look at bobls granite counters. I truck on down to my granite suppier, get some samples of his current inventory and none of them match the paint your wife wants, Oops, spent two hours with no results. Arrange to meet with you and her at the suppliers and he has nothing. Spent another hour with no results. Go to 3 other custom stone houses before we find something. 4.5 more hours and they insist on using their own installers. gotta tell my sub he lost out after all. Gotta rework the schedule to fit the installers timeframe. Part of the business, gotta expect these things. OK, now how about a sink? Gotta have that picked out before the counter is cut. Another 2-6 hours while we try to satisfy your really picky wife or maybe your the one who spends the most time in the kitchen. I'm not trying to pick on women. Now we've got the counter and the sink, we're set to go! WRONG. We still have to choose from thousands of possibilities for a faucet. And pray that you or your wife don't find something "to die for" two weeks from now. Now you may think that at this time I am ready to insert the costs and price of the counter and sink into your bid, but you would be wrong still. I now have to confer with the cabinet maker and the plumber so they can design the cabs and get their prices on the fixtures. Oh by the way do you want any special drain chrome?
Repeat the above for the cabinets, the doors and windows, the floor, the wall teatments, and the floorplans.
Before I can give you a fixed price, you and the designer have looked at thousands of samples, color chips, and hardware items. You have selected each and every thing that will be going into yor kitchen. You have made on the order of magnitude of hundreds of choices with all the time that entails.
See why I must insist on getting the dotted line signed before I design your kitchen? I am a professional, I am trying to prevent wasting my time and money on a gamble onwhat may be a bad bet. I gotta do the best I can with the cards (potential clients) I'm dealt. I am NOT trying to cheat you.
Do I need your budget numbers? Damn straight. Look at bobl's ideas for a kitchen. Beautiful. Turns out he's got $20k in savings and another $30k in equity he can pull down. That ain't enough. period. If I know this BEFORE I design and price, I won't waste his and my time creating a $70k plan. I can tell him this up front before I've put $5000 of my money into creating a $70k estimate. I can design something that WILL fit his budget the first time.
BTW if I don't charge for this design time I will have to roll $10,000 into my successful bids. If I get you for a client, guess what. YOU get to pay for my failures.
I AM NOT GOING TO SELL HIM A $10,000 KITCHEN FOR $50,000. I am going to give him a $50k kitchen that includes my STANDARD markup and profit. Like any other businesman, I make about the same % whether I sell $10k or $10M.
Please God, let me sell $10M.
No hard feelings, better luck next time for each of us, but I won't be trying to work with you if it doesn't feel good right away.
SamT
not part of the role play
"bobl, knows what he wants, and it's in the $100k -$150k range but he's still thinking 40k, so I need to do a little educating there."
wow, that will take some educating
that's $1000/sq ft
for a house valued at $300K
think this is important
how does an HO do their homework so they can start a conversation intelligently? so they are not spending money that will not prove useful and not waste contractor's time.
I'm not looking for those questions to be answered in this thread._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
MEa Culpa,
I shoulda said Joe Blow 'steada bobl, as it was not a house specific comment.
LOL
SamT
nothing to mea culpa about. I was playing the role and it was a way to relate the topic.
I never mention a house value before in role playing, and yes i did not just make everything up, and no i'm not trying to get an estimate thru this thread
but I did mention, i think, that the room was 9 1/2 by 13.
thats where I came up witht the rough number of $1000/sq ft.
while I know sq ft numbers don't have a lot of meaning, but...
thinking about spending $100,000 to $150, 000 on a small room makes one go gulp!
should be able to put on an addition for that._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
scott..... i get calls all the time.. if we have a previous relationship... and there is no design involved.. and the project is a lock..
i'll spend the time and roll it into the cost of the project..
but with you, it's a cold call.. i'm going to prequalify you over the phone.. if you pass.. i'll meet with you..
i'll show you some of our work from our portfolio.. you'll show me around your digs, we'll sit at the dining room or kitchen table.. and feel each other out..
if you have plans and specs.. you can show them to me..i'll look them over and estimate in my head how much time it's going to take to work up the price..
it might be $500.. it might be $1000... if it's a whole house remodel .. or a new custom house.. it might be $3K..
i'm not going to give you a competitve bid.. since i don't believe in them.. no matter waht .. i will never be bidding on the same job as any two other contractors...
if you want me.. you already know something about me.. or you've learned something about me.. so..i'm either presold.. or i sold you sitting at your kitchen table..
and what i'm selling is me... you get to buy my services to spend 20 to 100 hours of my life building your project in my head and on my computer..
if you don't want me to build your project, no hard feelings.. i wish you well with whoever you wind up with..
if you want me...... no design work... it's going to cost you to find out
i can give you examples from my protfolio.. but no price for YOUR work unless i'm paid..
as you know from your own experience, some contractors are worth it.. some are not..
if my Proposal to build your addition comes in at $170 K... then the $1000 i charged you to prepare it will be 1/2 of 1% of the cost
if my fee is $3K.. that's still less than 2%..
you can select a contractor who will not charge you to prepare a Proposal.. let's say his price comes out to $150 K... bet my price has more value than his..
or you might wind up with a contractor who develops a price of $200 k... bet my price has more value than his..
thing is.. you'll never know...never..
what i do know is that we give good value for our Price.. and we have a 30 year track record to prove it..
but if you don't want to pay for my time.. that's ok... someone else will... they always do...
and you can call them up two years later and ask if they got their money's worth.. and they'll say "damn straight"..
so.. can i get paid for my Proposal.. sure.. do it all the time
try me.. you'll like itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"It has to do with you getting all nervous when the customer doesn't play it your way."
I don't get nervous. What is this? A fight to the death ....
"I tell them to be real careful what they say they can do, because I'm going to expect them to do it. Then I give them a chance to bail if they can't live up to their talk"
Now that statement ... wouldn't make me nervous ... it would annoy me.
I'd walk. I'd make it a point first to show you pictures of previous work ... most likely done to or above "your standards" ... then I'd walk.
Here's the part you may be overlooking. Myself, like alot of other contractors, got into this business to make ourselves happy. Most of us realize we aren't going to become millionaires doing this type of work. We chose it because it satisfies us ...
If I know I'm not going to "be happy" ... given the chance ... I walk.
With your stated attitude ... I know sooner or later ... it's going to make for an unhappy jobsite. Probably right after I inform you that it's MY jobsite.
Now that I have some time on my hands ... I'll go back and start fresh from the begining. I'll let ya know if I'm still standing in your kitchen or almost back at home.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I think you were just blowing wind anyway. Because it doesn't happen anywhere near as clear as it does when you write it out. There's give and take. The original point was that customers aren't necessarily unreasonable because they have sincere questions that cannot be answered as simply and easily as some would have it. If you come in with some hard rule that they have to pay for a proposal, it isn't going to work.
And if a customer is going to annoy you that easily, then you should bail. And if you are only doing it to make yourself happy, then why are you taking the customer's money? He has to work for it too, and you're not doing him a favor when your taking his hard earned money to pay for your work. The idea is that both parties get what they want out of the deal, and that's why they live happily ever after. I've had this discussion with plenty of people who get into a job, find out they aren't happy, and believe with all their heart that that's a good reason to get out of the job. I think this is contractor bull, just as it is for a customer to agree to pay a price and afterward try to screw the contractor out of his due. They agree to pay. You agree to work. Both need to honor their committments. And it doesn't make a damn bit of different if they're having fun doing it.
SHG
did U come here just to fight with contractors?
I'd love to ... start a new thread.
I'll stop by and go over your crap point by point ...
preferably in the tavern ....
till then .....
get over yourself.
Jeff
"If you come in with some hard rule that they have to pay for a proposal, it isn't going to work."
hate to be the one to tell ya ... but some of your professed buddies on this very same forum do exactly what U say can't be done. Go back to the law books ...
you're in over your head here.Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Slow it down there Jeff. I'm not fighting with anyone. This was going to be a little role playing exercise about how to get customers to pay for a proposal instead of giving free estimates. While it was fine with people spouting the GC side, it doesn't work without someone being the customer. The objective was to show how to get the customer to understand why a proposal is something worth paying for.
When you jumped in, your answer was to walk out. Read it again a little slower. Maybe you missed the point.
SHG
Strictly as an exercise of "Devil's Advocate"...
If I go to an attorney and briefly describe my legal dilemma, he's typically going to charge me a retainer to review my case (substitute "my home"), prepare a strategy (substitute "drawings") and etc.
I'm curious how you see that as different from charging for a like amount of work on the part of a contractor?
"I'm curious how you see that as different from charging for a like amount of work on the part of a contractor?"
either you missed something or I did
I don't believe he said that.
I believe he was playing the role of an HO with certain view points
that's what this thread started as, role playing.
there are 1 or 2 others current about why to do it _____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Thanks bobl. I was beginning to think that I was nuts for playing this game. You think that people are a little sensitive around here?
SHG
"You think that people are a little sensitive around here?"
here? never!
what I think happens is you can eiasily lose track of what thread you're in.
there are two threads I believe going on about charging for proposals, and that does not include this one.
so can easily get mixed up
I know I do_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
SHGLAW,
All contractors do the initial consultation for free, not just some. I'm not counting repairmen as contractors.
The times I have been to a lawyer for the first free consultation, they have told me to do it myself, (go to the courtclerk, get the papers and fill 'em out,) that they can help me (for a down payment) or that they cannot help me (have no case, not their area of expertise.)
Only once was a lawyer willing to work (perform any legal action or give any advice about the law) without a deposit. He stated that he would pay all expenses himself for the opportunity to sue for $8,000,000.00. I think we had a GREAT case. We decided that morally we did not want to sue for that much, but we could not afford that lawyer to sue for what we thought was fair.
No one would expect a lawyer do deal with a client who said "prepare a case for me(take 40 to 100 hours to do it,) then, tell me how much you will charge to take that to court. If I don't like the proposed cost, rework the case and let me decide again."
Yet that is exactly what you are asking contractors to do when you ask for a free estimate (proposal.)
The lawyer/contractor analogy breaks down if we carry it any farther.
You as a homeowner MUST have an idea of what you want in the way of colorsd,textures, appliances, traffic flow, layout, and how much you can afford before you get to the estimate stage.
The contractor can perform all the labor required to create a plan for you, but you should be willing to pay for that planning and design WHETHER YOULIKE HIS PLANS OR NOT. He will be willing to change them with your input.
>>How much do you want to spend? The problem isn't how much we want to spend, but what we can get for our money. We want new cabs, wood floors, commercial appliances, stone counters. We would obviously like to spend less rather than more to get the kitchen we want, but we don't know how much the kitchen we want will cost. We're not willing to compromise and put in a kitchen that doesn't do it for us, but that doesn't mean we're ready to write a blank check either.
So, how much will the kitchen we want cost? If we understand it and it seems reasonable, we're ready to go. If it seems exhorbitant, then we either keep shopping or go back to the drawing board.
You want a $150K+ kitchen, you don't want to say how much you are willing to spend, and you don't want to pay anybody for the 100 hours required to design and price it.
We would obviously like to spend less rather than more to get the kitchen we want. . .We're not willing to compromise and put in a kitchen that doesn't do it for us
Which is it gonna be?? you can not have you cake and eat it, too.
but that doesn't mean we're ready to write a blank check either.
If you can't trust a professional businessman with a weeks salary to develop some PAPERWORK for your approval why in the world are you even considering trusting him with a years income to create your dream, that you will have to live with for many years?!?!?!?
I'm going over to Jeffs place for a beer and to laugh at you.
SamT
I don't think I missed anything (but I'm beat so maybe...)
My impression (and my apologies if I misconstrued) was that SHG was opposed to the concept of being charged for a proposal. Wile I'm not yet nearly in a league where I'm going to be able to do that myself, I think the concept has a lot of merit, at least under certain circumstances. I think it's interesting how many other professions charge essentially the minute you walk in the door, and yet contractors are rarely (it seems) able to...
First, most attorneys do an initial consultation for free. According tro what area of law it is, what happens after can be very different. But almost every lawyer does the initial consultation for free.
The second thing is that what any other occupation or profession does has nothing to do with whether you can do it in construction. If you want to argue with customers about it, fine. But it's not too likely that you're going to get much work by doing that.
Again, the point of this thread was how to get a customer to pay for the proposal. If your potential customer was a lawyer, and you made that argument, how do you think you would make out?
SHG
In point of fact SHG, I was participating in the "game" albeit indirectly. I think most contractors would be happy to give you a brief meeting to hear about a project as would most attorneys. But beyond that is where the paths, in my experience, diverge and I was asking you how you felt about that. To this point I'm not taking any particular side. As a philosophical point I find it very interesting, but if that's coming off as confrontational...
OK ..
back to the tolre playing.
I'm taking this as halfway thru my little song and dance ...
you started in with the "don't over promise- be able to back the fancy talk up" ...
And since by now I have definitely found out what you do for a living ....
I am closing the briefcase.
Simply put, I don't start off a job .. if I can avoid it ... on the wrong foot.
And you've just stepped on my foot.
I don't know you real well .... but I do know myself.
And I have to be a bit more "appreciated" by my customer to want to take the job.
I get the feeling I'd not be so appreciated ... so I politely leave.
I've been on sales calls where it feels like a competition.
When I'm smart ... and seeing as how this is role playing, I get to pretend I'm smart ... I walk and leave the headaches to someone else.
Now here's the big disclaimer ... I just jumped into this thread.
If .. after talking a bit ... and having you sit down .. and focus ... and look at the pic portfolio .... after briefly discussing your project ... and you still feel the need to play hardball ... then I haven't sold you on me.
Some people can be sold ... some can't. I'll know if I didn't do my best , or if the customer was just a hardass .... and for the hardline hardass ... I walk.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff, I actually agree with you completely that sometimes the fit isn't good. And it's usually best for everybody to walk away. I know plenty of people who have unrealistic ideas of what a contractor should be able to do, and what they should have to pay for it, and god pity the contractor who agrees to work with them.
But in the role playing thing that started this, I wasn't being a hardass or unreasonable. What I was doing was not playing dead, and that doesn't make me a bad or unusual customer. As for how I do things personally, I make clear that if you can produce the type of work I'm looking for, I'll be your friend for life and make sure that you never have down time. And I've found a good crew that has been working for me for a long time. I take very good care of them and appreciate them immensely. But there are some who try to get on my jobs who can't cut it, and I don't want their work and would rather scare them away before they screw up than afterwards. My regular guys get a good laugh out of me for doing this, because they know.
If you go back to the role playing in my first post on this thread, convince that person to pay you for your proposal. Unless you really think that he's not the sort of person you want to work for. That's all.
SHG
It sounds like you've got a good start on deciding what you want. You've looked around a little, so know what appliances and off the shelf cabinetry might cost. That's a start.
You use the term "we". Is there another decision-maker involved in this project? If there is, do you have another phone on this line so that both of you can hear what I say next? You're on a cell phone? Is there any way I could call you back on a land line? It's just that I believe that clear communication is really important and it would help if we start the relationship with all three of us communicating instead of "...you said that he said..." being the chain of communication.
Okay, can you both hear me? Good.
In my experience, the more time people dedicate to the planning and design of their remodel, the better the results. It sounds to me like there still needs to be some significant design work done. While it MIGHT be possible to shoehorn this job in before Christmas if we had a solid plan, it would be tight. I'd recommend using the time between now and Christmas to come up with a good design that fits your budget, order any necessary parts not readilly available, and plan on doing the work after Christmas.
Does that sound like a tentative schedule you can live with?
It sounds like you've got a good start on deciding what you want. You've looked around a little, so know what appliances and off the shelf cabinetry might cost. That's a start.
except we don't like the cabinet finishes we like. do you build your own, work with a cabinet builder, or do you use only one line?
we can live with starting after Chrstmas.
I've got a couple of questions tho.
Do you always use the same subs, suppliers, and such? would you mind telling us who they are?
could we get some references, some even 5 years back?
_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
bobl,
>>cabinets no, but we're thinking hardwood floors about 100 sq feet. and maybe a subzero refrig, a tainless stove, 6 burner, amd a stainless dishwasher. we know this s more than a remove and replace. but what we'ed like to do.
Do you have a sense of when you'd like this project completed?
we do Christmas at our house each year. so we need a functioning kitchen in time for that or wait till after that.
Do you have an idea of how much you can spend?
yes, but it is more a question of what makes sense with what we want.
I think we can work together quite well. We will need to set an appointment for a three hour time frame with my designer. Will next Monday at 7pm work for you?
It will take about 40 man hours over three weeks to gather all the information from our suppliers and specialty subcontractors, so I don't see any chance to complete this project by Christmas. We do have an open slot that will be long enough, starting February 15, Happy Valentines. Will that work for you.
We are going to have to give the Design Team a retainer of $3K to get them started on your kitchen, so if you and Mrs. bobl will just sign this Request for Plans and Proposal, I'll get them right on it.
(I have anticipated that you will automatically write the check as soon as you sign the Request contract. So there is no further mention, unless you don't.)
Oh, when is a good time for the Design Team Leader to call you tomorrow? He will need your budget figures for the Proposal.
SamT
SamT
"We are going to have to give the Design Team a retainer of $3K to get them started on your kitchen,"
think we're moving a little too fast here.
I know we don't know exactly what we want, but that also means we have no idea of what this might cost.
we understand that we we pick effects the price, but we don't know what we are even talking about.
You used the term retainer. that sound to me like it is going to cost more. And we don't know what we are talking about yet. I don't want to spend $5K to design a kitchen that will cost $20K to do.
some of the preliminary talks we've done have said they'll give us free estimates and design.
you mention $3K and we don't know what that is for, what we will get.
and we have a coiuple of questions for you.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way. what you see on the TV is about how contractors screw people. The TV always gives the worst. and to top that my cousin Vinnie was one those guys on the consumer advocate segment. He had some work done and the contractor didn't pay his subs and supplier. Vinnie ended up paying twice. And that guy came highly recommended! seems he used the next job to pay for the last and Vinne was the last.
So, we still need some information.
Do you use the same subs for all your jobs? suppliers? would you mind telling us who they are?
You might be afraid that I will try to use them without you, but I just want to check with them.
Also, could you give us some references, including some going back 5 years. figure that is long enough for quality to show up.
_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
We are in the very beginning stages of our planning, as we were hoping to get a realistic design that can actually be built, rather than a design from a showroom that is impossible to implement. Can you recommend a designer that you like to work with? We have some ideas on cabinetry, flooring and appliances, but we didn't want to make any decisions in those areas until we had at least a ballpark idea of budgeting. Plus, we don't know if our structure will accept some of these decisions if, for example, we wanted a tile floor. Since you are the first contractor we have spoken to, we are completely ignorant of the costs involved. We hope we aren't wasting your time by coming to you this early in the game, but if it is a waste, perhaps you can point us in the direction we should go to educate ourselves. Maybe we should talk to the folks at Lowes to get a realistic education in costs?
We'd like this project completed by next September, which gives us a full year for design and construction. If possible we'd like to limit the construction portion to a fraction of that, but we can go longer if there is an effective way to mask the construction from the rest of the house.
We know how much we can spend out of pocket, as we've been saving for this. We hate giving out numbers because we are concerned that a designer will use that as a target and design the kitchen toward the maximum end of the budget. What if we then discover an unwelcome structural surprise when we open up the walls? Because you seem like a reasonable guy and I enjoy your Fine Homebuilding articles, I'll level with you: any more than $10K and we need financing, but we cannot see spending $50K on one room in a house that is valued at $130K (including land). I got your name from the yellow pages because all of my friends did their own work on remodels or used Lowes. As such, I'd like some references, if it isn't too much trouble. Could you give me the names of the last 3 kitchens you did? I'd rather have that than just the people you know like your work, as I've been burned before by only speaking to the glowing references provided by the contractor.
Thank you so much for your time, and I really hope we get to work together.
Aimless,
This seems to be one of the stumbling blocks between clients and contractors; clients want a menu to compare prices and datum from. Contractors logistically cannot supply this menu.
A Google for "refrigerator" yeilds the following
Web
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,980,000 for refrigerator [definition]. (0.18 seco
If 1/10 of 1% of those are models of refregerators, there are 4000 different refrigerators available.
Multiply that by ranges, ovens, sinks, fixtures, cabinets, cabinet hardware, floors, and colors. Add bathrooms, living rooms, and others.
Maybe 100,000 items to put on the menu. Phew!
The cabinet guy can't even start the cab drawings until you've selected all the major appliances and the sink. The counter guy has to wait till you've selected the sink fixture. The GC has to wait till you've selected all the finishes. the Electrician and the DWer have to wait for the GC and Cab guy to at least get rough drawings before they know if their bids are right on.
'Nuff said fer now. I gotta get back to work.
SamT
"clients want a menu to compare prices and datum from. Contractors logistically cannot supply this menu."
Why not? You don't have to provide all 4,000 references of refrigerators, just give a 'low-end', 'middle-grade', and 'high-end' range. For example: a Hotpoint will run you $X00 to $Y00 with labor, a Frigidaire will run you $A000-$B000 and a Sub-Zero will run you $$$$$ to $$$$$$. Multiply that times the fridge, stove, and microwave and and that gives the customer a ball park to work with. Many folks who are into cooking already know what they want with appliances, but they may not know the extensive costs involved with labor for installing that Aga stove they desire, or the venting requirements for the gigantic commercial range, which significantly drives up the cost. For example, I suspect that a kitchen remodel could require an upgrade to my electrical service, so that affects my appliance choices, and that requires a GC or competent designer that actually understands construction to be involved during the initial design phase.
And why does the counter guy have to wait until you've selected the sink in order to give a price? Doesn't he cut the sink out of the slab, so the cost of that slab will be the same, with just differing amounts of waste?
I don't know what is involved in that huge range vent. I've got to get the detail drawings from the manufacturer. Maybe after I get the specs from the range manu. Woops, I better make sure the plumber sees these specs so he can make sure the gas volume/flow is sufficient. Details, details, details.
Same for every major appliance, gotta get their drawings before I can finalize anything. There are no standards.
You want me do to it three times just so the client doesn't have to tell me his budget?!?!?!?
When am I supposed to work for an income?
Of course I could triple my rates to make up for all the time I'ld waste preparing sales pitches/estimates. That'll get me a lot of work. Not.
Bye now,
SamT
From the sound of it, you want me to design the kitchen and then figure out the budget as we go?
aimless,
Computing the budget is the easiest part of this process and you are the only one who can do it.
Just take the amount of your savings, add the amount you can/want to borrow, and there is your budget.
You need to decorate the kitchen, it will be cheaper if you also design it. At least the first rough design, so we have a good idea of what you want.
By decorating, I mean deciding what appliances and finishes please you. In the process of choosing appliances, you will be exposed to their costs and will have an idea if they fit your budget.
If your budget is $21,394 and you have looked at Sub Zeros and commercial ranges, Italian tile and Cherry, you will soon realize that they just don't fit your budget.
Have you noticed how many decisions to be made include the word "you?"
If you are going to spend 7 years worth of savings and/or debt to get a room you will be living with for the next 10-15 years, it behooves you to take a little interest in what the room will be like.
SamT
SamT
So what will you do when the kitchen I design without your professional input takes out a major structural element which would cause the house to fall down? The point is that it is easy to look up the retail cost to purchase an appliance, it is even easy to cost out off the shelf cabinets, but homeowners do not know if their designs are realistic given the structure of the house, or the labor costs involved with rerouting a vent around a structural beam, or of moving the plumbing across the room, or of rewiring so we can have separate ovens from the gas range that I want in the new island. What you are saying is that I should just go ahead and design the kitchen based on whether I can afford the appliances and finishes I want, and let the rest of the budget take care of itself. That is unrealistic and will result in an unhappy homeowner. Darnit, I want tile floors without having to step up into my kitchen, what do I know about deflection?
I bet you are one of those same people who complain when handed a design done by a showroom salesman that turns out to be completely unworkable in the given budget. Aren't you asking the homeowner to do the same thing?
It seems apparent that you don't have any designers you can recommend so we can have a good 'working triangle' of homeowner, designer, and builder, so I think I will move on to the next contractor. Thank you so much for your time, I'm sorry I wasted your time coming out to look over my project.
Leigh has the right idea, you seem to be stuck on structural design. Leigh knows what s/he wants for decor and appliances. S/he even has an idea of layout.
Now it is up to the GC to work with her to refine those ideas into a structurally sound plan.
You seem to think that the GC should create several plans from rough floor to finished product, including selecting several different schemes of layout, appliances and decor so that you can pick which, if any, you like.
And if you don't like any, well, you'll just try another GC.
The fact that each GC is spending many hundreds of dollars for each theme doesn't seem to bother you at all, in fact you seem to think that it is your right to demand this.
Now, remember that this entire thread, I have been discussing a custom kitchen. If you want a kookie kutter kitchen, that would be a different story. I would, if I did that kind of work, just show you some pictures and appliance lists and let you pick one of the themes. I then should be able to accurately enough estimate the entire job at the first meeting.
If you make no changes to the theme.
Any costs I had associated with creating those themes would be spread over many clients and I would not be charging anybody in particular for a Proposal.
That is exaclty what HD, Lowes, and most Kitchen Centers do. 5 styles of cabinets, 5 types of wood or paint, three levels of appliances. The same 13 choices nationwide.
SamT
"You seem to think that the GC should create several plans from rough floor to finished product, including selecting several different schemes of layout, appliances and decor so that you can pick which, if any, you like."
Where on earth did you get that idea? My second sentence was that we had ideas about what we wanted but didn't want to lock ourselves in to something that would be outside the budget without first checking with a contractor. My third was a request for a reference for a designer that the contractor likes to work with. Where do you get the idea that I want the contractor to do all the work? Never, in any post or word did I imply that the contractor should be drawing up floor plans for me. I believe that Leigh and I are both just looking for ballparks on low/middle/high end in a generic kitchen so we know where we are coming from and SO WE DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. You seem to have missed every reference that I have made to the desire NOT to waste the contractor's time.
On the other side of this coin, you seem to want me to present you with plans that I've drawn with some $40 planning software along with my budget figures, and you will take it from there. Like I've repeatedly said, I can figure out whether the things I want will fit into my budget, but not whether the labor will.
You are reading things into what I've said that aren't there, and seem to be putting words in my mouth. Leigh has done a better job at expressing my exact thoughts, so s/he would work better with you - you and I obviously can't communicate at all, which is why I wouldn't be happy with you as a contractor, and why you wouldn't be happy with me as a customer.
"...you seem to be stuck on structural design. "
Well, duh - stupid me, I thought that was why I wanted a contractor involved early in the game, so that the structural design would work with my functional design.
Before you post to me again, I'd appreciate it if you go back and reread what I actually wrote. I realize that I am not as erudite as Leigh, but I really don't see how you are getting what you are getting out of my posts.
Here's my take as a lowly homeowner:
As an avid cook, I know how I want my kitchen to look, what appliances I want, how I want it all laid out and how much I have to spend. With a little legwork on my part, I can even find out what my appliances, sinks, countertop materials and cabinets cost to buy.
How, though, as a mere homeowner, am I supposed to know how much putting it all together will cost? After all, while I may be an expert in my profession, I am not an expert in construction. That's why I called Mr. Contractor--he is the expert.
Without bringing up the sometimes touchy subject of how much the homeowner has to spend, especially in the beginning of the relationship, maybe he could provide a basic formula that says, in general, "Your appliances should be no more than X amount of your budget." Or even ballpark figures for types of kitchens maybe even with pictures from magazines as examples? Something like this, say?
That kind of starter information would give Joe Homeowner the ballpark kind of figure they're looking for. And, more importantly for the contractor, let everyone know if he's close to reality or just wasting everyone's valuable time.
Then, the contractor could say something like "If you want to move forward, this is what I'll need. . ."
JMHO,
Leigh
I agree, and that is what I was trying to get at - that homeowners need guidance from people who will be doing the building to help them determine budgeting during the design phase. Just something rough so we don't get our hearts set on something we cannot afford. What SamT seems to be glossing over is that for many of these items the installation exceeds the cost of the appliance (certain stoves and ranges in particular), and we have no way of knowing that.
and there's one more thing to bear in mind; the HO has yet to decide that he wants to use a particular contractor. Most HOs try to get 3 to chose from, usually from recommendations but sometimes from the yellow pages (whatever). Each walks in on a level field, but it's then up the contractor to sell the HO. Quality is certainly a factor, but they never show you photos of stuff you'll hate, and they never say "hey, I may be a lousy carp but I like to take as much money from you as I can." All will tell you the HO that they're great contractors. Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't, but the HO has to decide which one to go with. Sooooo, the HO looks next to price/value.
SHG
Just something rough so we don't get our hearts set on something we cannot afford.
Absolutely.
I don't think most homeowners are looking for a detailed quote at the first meeting, but some expert guidance.
Something like, "One thing to keep in mind is that the non-standard appliances, i.e. commercial style appliances can be difficult to install and often have special requirements, such as extra support in the floor, special ducting, clearance requirements, etc. That can almost equal the cost of the appliance." Not "It will cost you X dollars to install this appliance."
That kind of honest, helpful information goes a long way towards building the relationship for me, and is a good clue that this is someone I can work with.
I understand that contractors are always leery of new clients because they or their colleages have been burned in the past. The same is true of homeowners.
Some I've interviewed seemed to have forgotten that the homeowner, after all, is the customer in the relationship.
Leigh
"Some I've interviewed seemed to have forgotten that the homeowner, after all, is the customer in the relationship."
Actually, in reality, "both" are each other's "customer." Think about it.
The biggest problem is created by incompetent, greedy, non-business people contractors and greedy, unethical members of the public. So because each party has been burned by the other party, both are now suspicious of the other.
It's a real shame that the sleaze of the public, and those morons in the industry screw the hell out of what should be and could be true trusting relationships, and a desire by each to please the other. That is the #1 reason why I not only don't let anyone pull that on me or a customer and get away with it. I will spend thousands of $$$ to "fix" a sleazy customer, and would not think twice about being an expert witness at no charge to "fix" a sleazy contractor in a court case.
Both should be forever banned to an island where they can screw to each other for the remainder of their respective lifetimes. These people are truly a pox on society. A lamb should not have to take on the attributes of a lion just to make a substantial purchase.
Actually, in reality, "both" are each other's "customer." Think about it.
I completely agree. A partnership or team even.
One of the reasons I read Breaktime is for the perspective I gain here--it makes me a better customer for the trades I deal with, and when I'm a good customer with accurate expectations, performing my role well, providing clear information and direction (and prompt payment), the outcome is better for both of us. Of course, the Taunton font of knowledge is incredibly helpful, too!
I was oversimplifying my encounters a bit, but the contractors I referred to (2 in particular) did not treat us like a customer. Our questions were not considered, they were more interested in our bank account than ideas, and in general didn't listen to us. That signalled a bad fit to me.
(And yes, I also know they have a choice and shouldn't choose to work with "bad" customers. I deal with these situations daily in my job in a different industry. And, for the record, I also think that people are basically good, but it always pays to be a smart consumer.)
A lamb should not have to take on the attributes of a lion just to make a substantial purchase.
Yes, so very true. I am a lamb at heart, you see, and it is painful for me to act like a lion. Takes years off my life, I think.
Leigh
Leigh, too bad there are not more "people", (not just" customers") as your self. It really grates me that while trust everyone unless learned otherwise, that I still have to make my contracts as though the next "customer" is out to scare me. I hate doing that simply because it's not a "natural" thing to have to do. I act as you do when being a consumer myself, and dislike having to treat sales people with suspect.
Books upon books have been written about the importance of "listening" and even more important for those who sell. Many years ago I wrote an article that was published in RSI (Roofing, Siding, Insulation) Magazine in their May 1986 Issue. Even though we have many choice people in my industry, the article pretty well sums up my own opinion about my industry. It’s entitled: “Developing Character, Not Being One.â€
“While government date states that 80 percent of all new business ventures fail within the first five years, our industry figure is 96 percent. Lending institutions consider us among the poorest of credit risks. To the general public we are arrogant, egotistical, distrustful oafs. Facts have to be faced, including public opinion, - maybe they’re right.
Our industry problems are many and intertwined. Image and quality control are two of the biggest. The construction industry is closely related to factory operations. We both take raw material, fabricate a product and sell it to the consumer. But while their methods are 20th century, ours are still in the B.C. stages.
Granted, we don’t have the R & D departments, prototypes, test markets and gorgeous marketing displays of the manufacturing industry. Knowing this in advance, you would think that the perceptive contractor and his various trade associations would make damn sure out quality control and image-makers were superior to those of the manufacturing industry, especially since we work under more adverse conditions. Than again, the public knows we’re not much on brains, and we sure try hoard to prove them right.
Look at our quality control standards - they are non-existent. Even our “punch lists†are a joke. I can just picture a customer showing his copy to friends, relatives and co-workers, saying: “Look at all the work my contractors missed of has to do over again.†Punch lists simply make our management problems obvious t the world.
Now look at your sales force? Not those in sport coats, I mean your real sales people, those your customers look at and converse with eight hours a day - your installers. With this in mind look at your employees again, but this time through your customer's eyes. Mr. Ponytail should be sent to the barber, the illiterate back to school, Mr. Macho to a psychiatrist, the alcoholic to AA, and Mr. Loudmouth know-it-all should be committed to spend the rest of his days in an echo chamber impressing himself. There, my fellow contractors, is your real company image =- not attractive ads or clean vehicles.
We all read articles in popular consumer magazines about “how to Hire a Contractor,†etc. And we all get angered when the authors of those articles portray the contractor as distrustful, even sleazy. In all the magazines I’ve read over the years, it’s odd that I’ve never seen any form of rebuttal stating the contractors’ side of the coin. Where are the trade associations?
In all fairness, however, they only reflect the apathy of their own members - us.
What we need is a total reassessment of our personal, company and industry values and goals.
What we need is to develop new trade operation manuals and standards of workmanship.
What we need is a resurgence of honesty, integrity and respect, instead of contempt for the consumer.
What we need is to remember that this great country gives us the opportunity to succeed honestly, not exploit randomly.
What we need is to stop being “characters†in our customers’ eyes and start developing “character†as an industry."
Might I add that I have not seen any change since I wrote that article 18 years ago.
While the books would show the company I work for sells products and systems, what we really sell is our expertise and our service.
I've tried to educate folks here that EVERY SINGLE contact with the customer forms their opinion of us, and every single contact should be treated like an opportunity to succeed or fail with that customer.
For example: when we had a new roof put on our house, yes, the work itself was speedy and excellent, but what I remember is that someone from that company broke a storm window and just left it for us to find, and the crew left cigarette butts all over my yard. That lowered my perception of the quality of the job (not to mention raised my blood pressure). And, when a friend asked for a recomendation on them, it affected the response I gave.
When I have a bad experience at Best Buy, after all, I don't just chalk it up to one employee having a bad day. That experience colors my perception of the whole company, and right or wrong, influences my decision to spend my time and my money there.
The same is true of all industries that depend on a someone buying their service/product, whether or not they consider themselves in a service industry.
If you continually or even periodically alienate your customers, they will take their business elsewhere. No matter what someone may think, customers always have a choice.
Leigh
Sonny,
I agree with you that a few (hopefully not many truly exist) bad apples have ruined it for many. I haven't read all you've written about the business end, so maybe you've covered my next question before. None of the contractors I've worked with (admittedly that number is very small and limited to individual trades for here and there stuff) have ever done a credit check on me. Even for electrical, plumbing and HVAC work that ran into thousands of dollars each. While I realize they could each file a lien if I failed to pay, it would seem like it would make more business sense for them to charge $30 extra and run a quick check with at least one credit reporting agency to see if I will be a problem customer before they invest time and money in me. Perhaps not to go to those lengths when the amount is in the hundreds. But when my furnace died it ran about 3 grand to replace it, and a lot of that is material cost, so a small company like the one I worked with would have a serious crimp in their cash flow if I bounced the check. Do you know why it is the case that contractors DON'T protect themselves better from the public?
Thanks,
Amy
I've learned my my 32 odd years as a contractor that for the most part, builders build for the money, while remodeling contractors and specialty contractors (subs) do what they do because they love doing it so they pay less attention to the business aspect.
I know many builders who live in million dollar houses while I've yet to meet a remodeler or specialty contractor who lives beyond modestly, although I have to admit, one of my sons is rapidly getting there.
Builders are more apt to initiate a lien for file suit because of their emphasis on money. The rest of us on the other hand, feel betrayed and for that reason, prefer to write off such losses, but that does not apply 100% to all of us.
Large specialty contractors like siding or window replacement companies generally do run credit checks, but again, they are generally in business for the money.
I do not want to imply that this statement is an across the board statement to builders and the above siding type contractor, it isn’t - but again, in my years I’ve found that “generally†the rest of us go beyond having just “customersâ€, to develop friends and relationships. And that’s why being taken advantage of unfairly is not just a business “incident†it’s a betrayal of trust as I mentioned above. And as potential friends most feel uncomfortable taking credit info from a “friend.†It seems tacky to us. Besides credit reports is a “business†procedure. We like to feel we will be treated as the guy next door, and treat you the same way.
Hope you can understand this, and again, this is for most of my kind. Obviously my own personality has tinted my post here. I love what I do for a living. I love helping people. And I love people. Odd, but even those I really disliked or got screwed by, I always found something about them that I liked, respected, or admired. IMO, people are rally good, but occasionally let their priorities or bad past expereince(s) screw up their attitude.
Thanks for the explanation, when put in the context of building friendships rather just business, it makes more sense that they don't protect themselves.
For me, I don't care what the nature of the relationship is (strictly business or otherwise), I still get pretty upset and feel personally betrayed when someone treats me badly (by not paying, or in my case not doing the agreed upon work). So I can empathsize with what you say about going after bad customers and say "More power to you". The world needs more people with the energy and fortitude to go after scumbags!
Well, Aimless, all I can say is that the act of a betrayal is , IMO, the most devastating act one person can perpetuate upon another. I think one would find that betrayal is the primary cause of most violent acts that occur as a consequence.
There is a lot of emotion that goes into: “How can you do that to me?†Or just, and simply: “Why?†The realization of a betrayal is a shock to one’s sensibilities. It is viewed as an incredulous act. It’s a slap in the face, a knife stab in the back - the ultimate humiliation.
Obviously, you can understand why I personally would never, ever, let someone do so to me and think that they could get away with it. On the flip side of that coin, you can also understand my I place so much value upon relationships, and treat them with the fragility & tact they require.
Edited 9/22/2004 11:34 pm ET by Sonny Lykos
I usually try to stay out of this type of cyber discussion, because personally, I think role playing is a waste of energy & time, unless you are, in particular, a lawyer. You have that shadow of doubt to cast.
Now, as a contractor, I don’t have to work for anybody. I can build on spec. Just because someone has my phone number doesn’t mean I have to give them my time. I can pick and choose, and I choose to choose my clients.
When I get a call, it’s because someone told someone else I do good work, and, not because I’m inexpensive (well, at least for this area<G>). It’s also, not because I sell my services, I hate that. I’m in this biz cause I like the work, not because I like the business. I’ll talk to you on the phone for free, and for a while if there’s nothing good on tee vee, ha, ha. But why would anybody expect me to come to their house, or site, and give them advice for free? Like I said I’m not a sales man, nor do I ever want to be, I build stuff.
I’ve seen people pay both designers and architects for “plans†of things they either couldn’t afford, or, have built. That was even when they gave a budget up front. They bitched, but they paid the fees. And, as an aside rant, why will folks feel comfortable giving a budget to designers/architects, and not to a GC? As I said, I build stuff, and I’ve had to work to learn how to do that. Why would I just give that information up?
Actually there’s several reasons why. I might just like you. I’ve been called by people who cracked me up, and I just had to meet them. You could be friend or family, special considerations. Otherwise, it’s a $50/hr consultation fee…see, I told you I was cheap.
I’ve found that the consultation fee weeds out the pikers very quickly. As a matter of fact, every time I’ve gotten the fee, I’ve gotten the job. I think it’s because the folks weren’t kicking tires, and we had a good rapport during the inquisition phone call.
Scott, I’ve read your posts here for a bunch of years, and I couldn’t really put my finger on why I got a bad hit from you, and, why, if you were to call, I’d have to say “sorry, I’m really booked now. And no, I don’t know anyone else who could help you,†until you said that comment about “your†guys and how you take care of them. You have a very special attitude, and I’m sure you know it. Puts me right off. And, would you explain exactly how you do “take care†of them. Employees or subs?
So what I don’t get, is why anyone thinks they’re getting something for free. Non-construction folks have jobs. Those that work for others have all their time billed out. Just cause construction dudes work for themselves, if they come to visit, why wouldn't their time be billable? I gotta pay an appliance repairman 65 bucks just to come to the house and maybe assess a situation, maybe not. Me, I work for a corporation, and, they are bastards about making a buck, I’m sure you all know what I mean?<G>
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
“As I said, I build stuff, and I’ve had to work to learn how to do that.â€
Bingo! And the “cost†of that learning is, admit it or not, the same as obtaining any college degree.
“Why would I just give that information up? “
You shouldn’t. And the reason is that your business life is based upon not one “asset,†but two. The 2nd is the actual “use†of your trade skills, but the 1st is the years it took you to obtain those skills - before they would be implemented professionally, and the key word is “professionally,†for their use as a novice is, to the “buying†public, nearly worthless.
Next comes the knowledge of “how†to use those skills, “whereâ€, and “when,â€, and that’s just knowledge of skills. Add to that the knowledge of material and products. It does no customer any good if the prehung new entrance door is installed perfectly and painted and trimmed out perfectly - visually only.
“Looks great†says the customer as they write out the final check and happy with the contractor’s price as well. That is until 2-3 years later when the door jamb starts showing decay at the bottom, and the brick molding starts showing the finger joints and separation.
Back priming, and with the correct primer, jamb bottom edge priming, proper caulk and proper application at the jamb to sill joint, perhaps a PVC brick molding or better yet, PVC jamb AND brick molding, but I'll stop here. No point in giving away - make that “....give that information up†as bucksnort billy stated. So we know know that there is a lot more to the learning of the skills, the “howâ€, “where†and “when†of those skills, and it critical importance of material and product “knowledge.â€
So much for: “How hard can it be? Just pull out the old one and slap in a new one.â€
Wish had a buck for each time I saw someone use Kilz on exterior surfaces, or zinc coated nails on exterior applications. I could take a month off.
To the buying public, you pay for that knowledge as well.
Now about “innovating†for your customer’s benefit.......... well, that’s a separate thread, and also something for which you just don’t want to “give that information upâ€.
Thanks for deciding to add your 3¢.
Good morning Billy,
The funny thing was that when my post, which got some into quite a tizzy, was not necessarily a reflection of my own thoughts on the subject, but part of the role playing thing to see how people would deal with the HO. What I found was that they couldn't deal with it. Instead, they wanted to argue the point and tell the HO (me, in this role playing exercise), how wrong I was. Now I didn't think the HOs position was either unreasonable or unusual, but the reaction here was to tell the HO to drop dead rather than persuade. What that told me is that the people who replied really don't have an answer, and they're basically blowing wind.
So rather than convince the HO why he should pay for a proposal, they chased the HO away. People can theorize about how wonderful it would be to get paid for proposals, and how much their time is worth. But if they can't come up with a persuasive way to convert their beliefs into reality, then it's just talk. Some people were able to tell about how they can do it with former customers, which is a special scenario that doesn't compare with new customers. Then when some other people tried playing the HO, taking as easy going an attitude as possible, they too got blasted.
The comparison with appliance repair people doesn't work for me either, since they appliance repairman does the repair on the first trip. He doesn't come to give a price, then return to do the repair. And as for contractors and HOs being each others' customer, that only bears some resemblence to logic after the contractor has been hired. When the HO is still trying to decide on a contractor, the analogy fails completely. Once the HO and contractor know that they are on the same page, then they are a team. But that doesn't happen the day they walk in on a cold call.
Most of this is really an exercise in foolishness, since we all bring our own experiences to the table, including the competition in our areas, local practices, etc. Where I am, there are a ton of contractors, most of whom charge big and produce poor work. Finding someone who is really good is pretty hard, and when you do, you keep him close. Finding someone who talks big but can't produce is the norm. Andy lives pretty close to me, and he can tell you that this is the case. And if a sub doesn't like me, that's fine. Doesn't bother me a bit because there are literally a hundred more where he came from. But he knows that too, and that's why they never walk away. And I mean what I say; I want to know if the sub can produce. If he can't, I'd rather know up front. Now this attitude turns you off. That's ok. I'm looking for work, not love. Once I respect your work, I'll show you the love. If you can't show me the quality of work I expect, then you aren't the person I want. And if you want the love first, you've come to the wrong place. So it's best we not work together.
Remember one thing here. Everybody here thinks their work (not to mention their ideas) are the best thing since sliced bread. But you have no clue if its true. What if half the people here are hacks passing themselves off as craftsmen? How would you or I know? It's real easy to tell everybody here how good you are and how much you know, but as I recall, there are quite a few people here who were starving. Maybe some people aren't as good as they think they are. Or maybe they have a lousy attitude and aren't getting work because they are coming across to HOs like a prima donna. Who knows?
SHG
BB,
If I liked you on the phone I'd pay your consultation fee without a second thought, and have done (same amount actually) for a an hour of a contractor's time and advice about a project we were considering. In a weird sort of way I think it adds to your value to me, because it shows that you value your own time.
You sound like the kind of client I like to work with. You're not putting up hoops of fire. You can come look at some of my work, and talk to the folks I did it with. I'm not selling anything, you're buying a value, that, perhaps I can provide. I'm glad you appreciate my time.
Scott, with the attitude you're projecting in your role, I neither love or respect you. I not trying to get you to reciprocate,either. I see you as a user. Don't take it personally, unless you're drawing from your own life's work here. Me, I want to give my chosen clients what they want...now, that can change dramatically when they understand all the ramifications of getting there. If you want to make working for you some kind of contest, that's an interesting, and, unappetizing take, from my end...so, I'm not biting.
And, Sonny, I did go to college, plenty of times too<G> Matter of fact, I'm back there again for an unlimited license ...hope I graduate this time LOL. I also hope the young guys listen to you, building really can be a business that's something one could retire from. I thank you for steadily reinforcing that. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I feel like I'm standing backwards on the Merry go Round.......I'm dizzy!!
Wow, what happened to the role playing?
Eric
Why is it so difficult to understand that time is money? We all get paid for our time. Period, exlamation point!Every once in a while, something goes right!
Aimless, in reality we cannot blame the public for misunderstanding what it is “exactly†what each of us do for a career. It's up to us to let them know. If we don't, shame on us. Let’s visit to few of the hats we wear:
1. Salesman
2. Production field person
3. Laborer
4. Warehouse maintenance man
5. Inventory man
6. Bookkeeper
7. Tool/equipment maintenance man
8. Designer
9. Researcher (I personally spend about 4 hrs/wk doing this)
10. Office clerk
11. Consultant
Several years ago I realized that if I worked for a larger company as an employee in the capacity of any of the above, I would get paid. I know of no company in which those positions do not offer a paycheck. It was then (OK, I’m a slow learner) that I decided that I too would start being paid for each of those “positionsâ€, regardless if I wore them 4 or 12 or 40 hours per week.
My wife does my books, part-time. I pay her $150/week for doing so. IMO, any contractor whose wife does his books and does not pay her has no respect for her as a person. Would the same contractor let his wife work in a CPA’s office a few hours per week for nothing?
Contrary to what many people think, there really are no “entitlements†other than life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. No entitlements for contractors, or the public, unless they are on the government’s dole.
Business ownership is not rocket science. It is a case of simple mathematics, and 1 + 1 never equals 0.
Salesmen work on commission. If they don't sell, they don't earn. Unless the salesman sells, the rest do nothing but sit around waiting. And if the salesman doesn't sell, pretty soon they all stay home because there is no job to do and no money to pay them.
Owners get paid last, but it's a matter of risk/reward. The more profitable the business is, the more the owners make. No one guarantees an owner a salary or profit. It's up to the owner to be successful. If the business is not successful, it doesn't matter what "roles" the owner plays. He makes nothing if there is nothing to be made. This is true for all business owners, not just contractors.
If the owner has a sound business plan and executes it well, there will be revenue to pay employees and profit to pay the owner (and don't get caught up in whether the owner takes a salary or profit, because it is profit no matter how the accountant characterizes it for the books). Some "one man bands" are willing to forego profit for comfort, which is fine if that suits their priorities.
Since this thread has long since given up on "role playing," I might as well join in the philosophical discussion. Charging HOs is great if you can. It is not an ethical matter, but whether the HO agrees to pay for whatever it is you are selling, whether it is a finished product or your time and expertise. But this discussion is constantly mixing apples and oranges. People here do very different types of work in very different markets. It will work well for some, and not for others. When people write about it, they bring their own perceptions into the discussion without expressing them. For example, we don't know if you're talking about building a wing or a half bath.
In my market, which is the North Shore of Nassau County, NY, median home prices are $1.2M, with many running into the $5M and up range. Typical kitchens run $100-150k. The competition for work is very high because the money is very good. No one charges for a proposal, and I am unaware of anyone who would want to. They want the job, because each job they get will pay for the time spent on proposals they didn't get. It's taken as a cost of doing business. Customers are typically very demanding in their initial discussions. For many here, they would view these customers are major pains, but since this is normal here, it is nothing unusual and isn't taken as a problem at all. Most of these people are also business owners, and as is typical of New Yorkers, are very aggressive. Elsewhere, they would be deemed offensive. Here, they are viewed as profit centers. It's all a matter of what works where you are. Trying to compare the practices and personalities of different markets makes no sense. You can't fight the market, and it's foolish to try to argue against success.
To sum it up, one size does not fit all. This role playing exercise showed me one thing: there is no magic bullet that will work for everyone. I apologize to those who thought my HO role playing was too aggressive, but I wanted to see how you would respond to the people in my market. Sonny is right about one thing. The relationship here between contractors and HOs is too distrusting and adversarial on both sides. It should be a team, and instead it is too often a power struggle. This is truly unfortunate, as it makes everyone's life a little more difficult then it should be.
SHG
I think you've summed things up very well. It's absolutely true that in some markets, and for some types of work, trying to charge for estimates, proposals whatever would be a no-hoper. Your point about spreading the cost of failed proposals over the sucessful ones is of course entirely accurate and correct. It is what every business does. Every time a person receives the attention of a car salesman for an hour or so and doesn't buy, the cost of that time is borne by those that do buy.
I think it's all about being able to give a ballpark figure on the first visit
John
I have always contended that all business owners are sales people first. As you stated, if nothing is sold, nothing is made.
As far as havaing to contend with "markets", had I not ived for 13 years in a Michigan rural=, farmer, and blue collar area, I'd have to agree about what, whee and to whom one could charge fees for some services rendered.
Fortunately for me, back then no one told me I could not charge for this and that , so I did, and got paid, and am still in demand.. My competitors were also routinely about 10-20% cheaper than I. Go figure.
Here in Naples, FL, the land of big bucks, no one told me that I could not get double and tirple what my competitors were charging when doing work for a "market" that is inherrently cheap - condo associations, so I did. Again, go figure.
IMO, the key is not market, not the economy, not competition, but one word - "salesmanship." Actually another word as well - "branding" one's self. And of course it's hard, very hard, but doable.
One must first decide if they will be a trades man, and always a trades man, or a business man. And if a business man, again, they must first become salesmen. Being a trades man is the least asset they own. If they cannot sell, they will forever remain , and be paid as, "trades men." Again, IMO. I can hire trades men, and incur the cost of them with labor, labor burden, and overhead totaling $65, and still make an additonal 30% - 40% net profit just on their labor.
Salesmanship, and what I call "customerization" - our most valuable assets.
Scott,
You say that customers don't want to pay for proposals, but you also say that giving free proposals is the cost of doing business.
So if ABC contracting gives 3 free proposals for every 1 job they get aren't the customers paying for 4 proposals and not 1? If the contractor values his time then he had to increase his overhead to cover the cost of running around giving free proposals.
Jon Blakemore
So if ABC contracting gives 3 free proposals for every 1 job they get aren't the customers paying for 4 proposals and not 1? If the contractor values his time then he had to increase his overhead to cover the cost of running around giving free proposals.
If ABC contracting doesn't get any business, then it doesn't matter. ABC contracting would rather get a $100k kitchen then a $2k proposal fee. You can value your time all you want, but how many kitchens do you want to lose to try to get a fee for the proposal? Except for Sonny, who always gets the proposal fee, the job and can charge 20% more than anyone else on top of it.
I'm not telling you what to do. If you want to demand a fee for your proposal, so do it. You don't have to convince me. You have to convince the person you want to pay the fee.
SHG
"You have to convince the person you want to pay the fee."
And that is not so easy until you've branded yourself, or in some way have created a demand for you. It took me several years to get to that point. And when I did start charging, I prepared myself with several logical reasons I could explain to the customer. Charging any fee, is really a marketing campaign and must be treated as such.
"So if ABC contracting gives 3 free proposals for every 1 job they get aren't the customers paying for 4 proposals and not 1? If the contractor values his time then he had to increase his overhead to cover the cost of running around giving free proposals"
Exactly.
It is really just an extension of his advertising.
Maybe only one person out of 10,000 sees that ad and ends up as a client.
He has to pay for the 9,999 that did not respond to the ad.
Thanks Bill. That really is the perfect analogy. It's just another cog in the wheel of getting the job. Part of the cost of doing business.
SHG
But it's not just as simple as saying: "He has to increase his overhead to pay for that additional cost of doing business.
He must know the "exact" cost of those other Proposals, an average of how many are offered either monthly or annually, and since the cost of a Proposal is basically the "cost" of his time in creating them, obtaining the info to create them, delivering them, etc., he must determine what his time is worth, in hours.
For example, if I spend an average of 15 hours/week on selling and creating Propsals for 46 weeks (690 hrs) and do about $250,000.00 in annual sales, then my time is worth about $262 per hour ($250K divided by 690 hrs) because that is what one hour of my time generates in sales. Actually, if of the 15 hours, only 8 generate those $250 annual sales, then my time is actually worth about $718/hr. (8 x 46 = 368 annual "productive" hours, divided into that $250,000 equals $718.)
Or..... if only 7 of those hours do not generate sales, that (7 x $262) or $1834 must be included in the weekly" over head.
So either way one calulates the selling time worth, obviously to talk about adding the cost of time spent on lost sales being added to one's overhead is not really realistic either.
Gotta come up with another idea.
Anyway, if the above is not done, then one is playing games and deluding himself as to this "real" cost of doing business as far as "sales expense".
Anyway, if the above is not done, then one is playing games and deluding himself as to this "real" cost of doing business as far as "sales expense".
Sounds like most of us must be games playing self delusionists. I don't think so
I won't bother to pick apart your whole post, but will point out that you don't deal with the fact that only some of your time can be spent selling your work, the rest has to be spent doing the work. You obviously can't spend all your time selling, or you would have nothing to sell. Equally if you didn't spend some time selling you would have no work. Trying to seperate selling time from working time is futile. SHG is right, time spent selling is part of the cost of doing business
John
Not being an idiot, I'm aware of the fact taht one must work. Didn't you read the part of my post where I specificaly noted 15 hours per week selling.
And I agree that: "time spent selling is part of the cost of doing business."
Three questions still remain:
1. Does the time spent selling represent any value?
2. If so, how is it determined in per hour value?
2. And again if so, how is it recaptured?
It's an academic exercise. Fine for big corporations. Useless for a one man band. You sell the job. You do the job. You make as much money for the job as you can. It's like agonizing over whether you can charge $25 an hour for your time or $125. If you can get $125, then that's what you can charge. And if you can only get $25 and can't make a living at it, then you find another way to make a living. Your time may be worth $125 an hour to you, but the trick isn't what you think but whether somebody else is buying it. And for the 4000 time, if they are buying, that's great. But if they're not, don't sit at home alone wondering why you can't feed your kids.
SHG
The only reason why I keep giong back to dollars is becaseu for the last several years I kept hearing that one should, or does, cover his extra time in sales in his overhead. While, ovehead is money. And as with thowing the costs associatied with a truck in overhead, then I must ask, what amount of overhead is "thrown in."
It's really simple mathematics. Busines is about money, not emotions, not cavalierly stating the covering of one's rear end in his overhead. It'a all about money, or rather money verses time.
If I am a one man operation and take home $1500 per week for working on "productoini" for 40 hours, I think I'm doing great. Until that is, I also add the other 20 hours I spend that is associated with my buiness. If I did not own the buisness, that other 20 hours would not be spent in it, one way or another. So the reality is that for my $1500 I actually spend 60 hours, or $25 per hours. And I'll bet my ten dollars to your one dollar, that the vast jamority of those $1500 per week guys don'e include anything for dick time, vacation time, full medical premiums, holidays, etc. If they don 't work, they don't make any money.
All I'm trying to get accomplished here is to get my peers to realize the true costs of business ownership, and the true net hourly dollar amount each makes compared to the true amount of time they repsectively spend that is associated with their buisnesses.
The truth hurts, but regardless, unless it's acknowleged, one cannot address the unfairness and destruction of mismanaging business ownerhip.
Remember, our industry has an 85% plus failure rate within the first 5 yeas of starting a buisness. One should learn the reasons for that and address each one separately so at year six, he is still in buisness. Generalities don't pay the bills nor keep one afloat.
Edited 9/26/2004 5:56 pm ET by Sonny Lykos
>>All I'm trying to get accomplished here is to get my peers to realize the true costs of business ownership, and the true net hourly dollar amount each makes compared to the true amount of time they repsectively spend that is associated with their buisnesses.
>>The truth hurts, but regardless, unless it's acknowleged, one cannot address the unfairness and destruction of mismanaging business ownerhip.
>>Remember, our industry has an 85% plus failure rate within the first 5 yeas of starting a buisness. One should learn the reasons for that and address each one separately so at year six, he is still in buisness. Generalities don't pay the bills nor keep one afloat.
I dare anyone to argue with the above statements.
I don't understand why people in this business, more than others it seems, can start an enterprise with out a business plan.
Sonny, thank you once again! I say a big round of applause!!
BTW Sonny, who's payin for all the time you spend here??
I still owe you that Guide to Remodeling.........I finally figured out that Acrobat Reader won't let you convert both ways.....doh! That's why I haven't sent it to you. Can you accept it in Word?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Thanks for the "round," Eric.
Unpaid time here is really a responsibility I have to my peers. I know I often come across as a know-it-all, but after 32 odd years, I only know that many mistakes that can be made, and many right things that should be done without question. Back in 1981 when interest rates went up to 21%, and due to my own financial mismanagement, I filed bankruptcy. Lost my business and my home. Remodeling Magazine emailed me to ask if they could include me in a short article about my bankruptcy. I agreed. I agreed to publicize my own humiliation for only one reason - in the hopes that my "story" might help just one other person to avoid making mistake. Of course, I could never find out, but the hope it did made my story worth it.
So there's a reason why I preach, and I know damn well I preach, and why I feel so strongly about the issues I discuss. No one but our own knows what we go through, the nights up late, the week-ends doing estimates or going on sales calls, the sabotage from employees, the unappreciated potential customers who don’t even have a shred of decency to call us to tell us they’ve hired someone else, and after we’ve spent many hours or days with them and working up estimates and designs. Perhaps that’s why 100% of the respect we do get is again, from our own.
Considering what we do: the number of potential liabilities we accept, the hours we spend, the destruction of our bodies, the unsafe conditions we work under, there is not a single one of us who should not be making double what he is currently. And they can, but they do not have a chance if they continue to think with a tradesman’s mentality as opposed to a business man’s mentality. That is the single most important aspect I try to change in my peers mind set.
And yes Eric, I also use Word on my Mac so I can open Word from any Windows file.
>>Back in 1981 when interest rates went up to 21%, and due to my own financial mismanagement, I filed bankruptcy. Lost my business and my home.
That would be around the time when I was starting out........the small builder I was working for was making a killing investing his money in CD's.
>Remodeling Magazine emailed me to ask if they could include me in a short article about my bankruptcy.
Rm is one of my favorite publications. Good business sense. I'd love a reprint of that! I know a couple of guys that over extened/leveraged themselves into bankruptcy around that same period. Some unfortunately recovered.
I'm glad you did. That's like having been in a war and come home alive.
I'll send you The Guide. I've already compared it to The Process.......you win! Rightfully so.
Thanks again,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Sorry Eric, I didn’t keep it.
The gist of the article was about how I did not save a substantial amount of the profits during boom time. Instead, I kept buying more equipment and trucks and hiring more guys. I also made another stupid mistake, not putting my finger to the wind to keep track of where it was headed, or from where it was coming.
By that I mean, reading magazines like Forbes, Newsweek, Time or other business periodicals to track “national†business climate. Heck, just reading oneweekly business magazine. As interest rates climbed it should have hit me like a hammer in the head that the economy was going to crash big time. It was very obvious, but in my little world I did not pay attentions to it because my world was growing. Then suddenly the jobs stopped coming in and in a few months I was down to 3 guys in the field and up to my eyeballs in debt.
I used to say that I was a great contractor but had lousy financial smarts. That was wrong. I was a terrible contractor. The reason that was wrong is because the word “contractor†or “businessman†really represents a puzzle. Each part of the puzzle represents things like supervision, sales, marketing, finance, research, human resources, management, etc. Each of those pieces MUST be handled well, known inside and outside well, monitored well, and implemented well. If only one of them is not up to par or fails, then the entire puzzle is flawed, therefore, the contractor is "not†a good one, he is a “flawed†contractor, just as that puzzle. I was flawed big time, paid for it, and deserved to pay for it.
Contractors are just one more form of business people, not trades people. And as such, must always keep an ear to the ground to monitor local, state, national and global business & economies. Their business lives depend upon it.
Although it would have been easier to blame someone or some thing like the economy, employees, the President at the time - anyone. But that would have been wrong and I would have been delusional. The buck had to stop with me, and as it does with each of my peers.
Remember: "Successful people form the habit of doing the things failures don't like to do." I'm a good example - of a failure, that is..
Sonny,
You could be teaching at my husband's school. He recently got his BS degree from a local college in Architectural Woodworking (cabinetmaking) and the classes on running a business (accounting, entrepreneurship, business law, inventory control, project management, etc) exceeded the classes on woodworking by about 3 to 1. I really feel he graduated capable of running a business of any type, and I guess that was the point of the program.
You're right that you've only listed a few of the hats you wear, some of the more obvious ones you left off: Safety Engineer, Project Manager, Public Relations Specialist (after the project is sold to the customer by your 'salesman', you still have to stroke them along to make them feel good), Personnel Manager...well I could go on, but I have to get back to wearing MY work hat.
Thanks for all your insight.
Amy
Amy, I agree with your husband, although he received his "insight" from college and while I went to college for 2 years, I gleaned 95% of my insight form the college of hard knocks.
And also like your hubby, IMO, a good manager can manage anything because they know what to manage, how, and with whom (delegation).
Rare, two smart and wise people who happened to marry each other. I'll bet your kids are or will be Mensa International material.
"Rare, two smart and wise people who happened to marry each other."
Careful, Sonny- unless you and Barb fit that description too, you've either just insulted yourself or Barb (insinuating that one of you isn't smart and wise). If it was her you insulted, you're liable to end up in the doghouse after your coffee tonight....lol
Bob
Nah, Bob. I never considered my self smart, nor wise. In fact, I'm really a very unremarkable guy. Now Barb, on the other hand...... Still don't understand why she's kept me for nearly 41 years.
Listen, I need at least 50% down just to talk to you and I'm really busy, so I'll try to be there on Tuesday. More than likely, I won't be there, so I'll catch you whenever.
Also, I'm going to need you to write the check out to my girlfriend so I don't have to worry about the state garnishing it for back child support.
Actually, do you think I could swing by now and get like $200 bucks... for materials?
Later!
ROAR!!
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?