Looks like between oldest daughter and her family and my wife our “retirement” home will be shared with them.
My question has anyone out there found some designs that really work well without being “over the top”. I have no desire to build a “McMansion” just a comfortable home. I suspect it will be around 2500-3500 sq. ft. If I can get everybody to agree on a design I can then begin the gestimate of costing as I plan on DIY’ing as much as I can. At this point I may hire a local contractor to “dry in” the home and I can wire, plumb and will hire out the rocking. It may end up turnkey if the market for homes picks up here in the next couple of years, and I can move my home here in town fairly easily. I will be under a time constraint as the subdivision has covenants that require the exterior of the home to be completed in a year. Which I agree with as we are the last home to be built in this particular sub.
We will be building on a flat 2.25 ac lot in Wasilla AK, north of Anchorage by about 50 miles. Since this a fairly cold climate I plan on using ICF’s for the walls and depending on finances either a SIP roof or trusses. I may put in a full basement depending on the soils test next year. We don’t plan on breaking ground for at least 3-4 more years and I know a lot can change over that time but just trying to get some ideas together now.
Thanks much in advance for your ideas.
Jim
Replies
An attached garage with a second floor has often been an excellent way to provide for a second generation family when some boundaries are desireable. It can be designed to convert easily into a separate apartment too.
The second floor needn't be limited to just the space over the garage either. Lots of possibilities.
Thanks, I have seen that too. It has possibilities.
Personally, I want my next place to have multiple smaller building arranged around a court yard. In part to have ground level living without a boring ranch look.
But, that might not be a good idea in a climate like Alaska.
I saw a home once that was U shaped ,shared common areas were in the front, each wing contained bedrooms. The wings could be completely closed off from the common areas for privacy. Each wing had a small room set up as a parlor for entertaining guests away from the common areas. The owners loved the set-up, it allowed them to have people over without involving the whole household.
You could add a kitchenette in each wing...I think they are now called "entertainment kitchens" or something fancy, to keep the building dept. happy.
We did a house like this last year. The photo's and blueprints are on our website so you can down load them and play around with the design. Basically the woman came to us for a simple small house design and then her mother decided to come live with her and that meant that granny would be coming along too. The "front" of the house is mom's side with the guest bedroom for granny and a home office on the second floor (she's a writer with a research assistant) the connector is the shared laundry and exercise room and the daughters side is a nice home theater living room with a kitchenette, big screen porch, and a second story art studio and balcony (she's a professional drummer, international caliber, so she's not home all that much)
It seems to be working out for them pretty well. They can lock each other out of their respective sections, when one goes out she locks the party door and doesn't worry about whether the other side of the house is locked.
http://www.chandlerdesignbuild.com/indexFull.php?id=romweberResidence&t=The%20Romweber%20Residence
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Beautiful house!
I've worked on 2. I'm sure there are tons more possibilities but I'll throw these out for whatever they're worth.
#1 probably was a McMansion by most standards. It was 8400sf finished. On the first floor, the kitchen, entry, LR were common, the rest of it was separated off by a door to the "in law" area. They had 2 BR's, bath, a little study/office, large accessible bath, and large WIC. I think that one worked primarily because everyone living there had a little input into the design. Process ownership. There was a large covered deck on the back of the place that you could access via a door from the LR, or a slider from one of the inlaw BR's.
#2 was more practical I thought for average Joe. It was built like a duplex. There is a demising wall in the middle; there is a door in the basement that joins, as well as the main level via the laundry area which adjoins the garage. Each side had its own entrance from the garage.
Now in practice, they can leave doors open, comingle, whatever. Down the road, some day, somebody passes, moves, whatever, making the place a true duplex where you could sell it or half of it, all you'd have to do is delete the basement door. I'm not sure if here, legally, you'd even have to separate the garage.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I think the central courtyard is the single best design I've ever seen. The u shaped house with wings alows the back side of the u to spill out into a larger area. Maybe a garden there? The central courdyard with large overhangs provides shelter with an open sky in the middle. I lived in a house in Mexico like that. It was an L with tall cielings and large overhangs opening up to a courtyard dominated by a large guava tree and a round fountain. Beautifull!
Just make sure the plans accomodate people on vastly different time scheduals.
How does the plan work if the teenagers have friends over watchiong horror movies into the wee hours?
How does the plan work if the grandparents like to wake up at 5am for their morning walk and want to turn on the radio for the news?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I agree with you. You want to design it so people can have some of their own space.
But, and this is a big but. People need to get over their independent self centered I need my space issues. When you live closer together there are going to have to more rules governing peoples so called freedoms. And people are going to have to learn to live with peoples faults.
Our culture has fostered peoples independent behaviors for so long they think they are inalienable rights. Living close to people and getting to know them well you will see them up close, warts and all. And guess what, you have warts too.
popawheelie,
Everybody needs personal time, their own space affords them that time plus offers a respite from the pressures of living together.
Since it' s been nearly a century since multigenrational homes were the norm we all need to relearn the rules that apply. It's not ingrained or part of our culture anymore..
To radicle of an adjustment means that people will endure the experiance not embrace it..
Think back when you went thru bootcamp how much you craved a little privacy....
I understand you and agree. But there a large formidable force at work that tell people to buy a house that is to big for them and cars that are to fast for them and, and, and.
If you are passive about it will never happen because people are inundated with massages going the other way.
Basically, commercials/sales tell people they are little monarchs and deserve to have their very own kingdom. And people eat it up.
As one who is living the "dream" of living with an aging relative, I'll offer a few observations based on living with my 88 year old MIL for the past nine months.
The single most important thing would be separate spaces. The elderly can have much different schedules, needs, requirements, and habits and they won't change willingly.
Sharing kitchens and bathrooms becomes very trying - very quickly. We have a fairly small galley kitchen and it's very difficult for more than one person to use it at a time. After 30 years of living alone, my MIL has developed the habit of leaving stuff all over the place and it's really difficult to convince her that cleaning the kitchen at the end of the day isn't enough. When I come in to fix my lunch, I don't really appreciate having to move her stuff out of the way. It also takes her between 30 minutes to an hour to get out all of her food containers and prepare her lunch. We usually have to dance around one another at noon.
Another problem area is food storage. Her dietary needs require that she has several small meals during the day rather than the "normal" three squares. Our cabinets and fridge are now full of "Grandma Food". To add to the fun, she insists on buying the largest package because "it's cheaper in the long run".
Oh, I almost forgot about her pills. She keeps her medications (prescriptions and supplements) in small stashes all over the kitchen. She doesn't want to consolidate them in a single location because she has trouble remembering what she has taken during the day and, somehow, having small "stashes" helps her keep track.
A big issue is privacy. Our kids have been gone for almost 10 years and SWMBO and I had become accustomed to talking (and sometimes fighting) with complete privacy. Now, we have to leave the house - or go outside - for the more serious discussions (and/or arguments).
Other issues include "granny-proofing". My MIL gets around pretty well most of the time, but needs her cane when her arthritis acts up - and uses a walker on her really bad days. We have a single story ranch house and I've been adding grab bars to help her in the bathroom and through the front and back doors. Those steps that I don't even notice can be a serious hurdle for her when she's using the walker.
If I were doing this over, I would have seriously looked into getting a place with a separate MIL unit. My MIL is a sweet little old lady, but those habits and idiosyncrasies that are amusing during the occasional visit quickly lose their charm when you have to deal with them 24/7. - lol
You are going straight to heaven when you die.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
Yeah. A kitchenette and separate bathrooms would be at the top of my list as well. Like you, at lunch I need to eat fast and leave with minimal obstacles between me and the food. The posse of pills that many people have to take and the protocols involved ( ie. on an empty stomach, 30 min before eating, with a meal, on tuesdays when the moon is full etc.) is something I look forward to like losing my teeth.
That last line was funny. Thanks.
Dave: good post. There is nothing as informational as experience.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
Dave,
It's a fine line between enough space and seperate space.. the reality is a seperate space may require nursing care sooner. Hopefuly your MIL brought something to the table.. Often what I see is in exchange for the money she brings into the household a place is provided for them instead of a nursing home..
MY Children have and will graduate from college with student loans, if they manage to pay those off they then go into debt to service a mortage.. Mortage payments have been my highest expense since I started to live on my own.. with luck I'll have paid off my home just prior to my retirement. Instead of stepping into a mortage payment they can use that money to travel, hobbies, interests, etc.. or put money aside so their children don't have to pay for student loans..
So they give up a bit of their freedom in exchange for a great deal of fincial freedom in the future.. What I get is someone to help maintian this place when I no longer can, and someone to be there should I need assitance in daily living..
This has to be a win-win situation for everybody to accept it..
This has to be a win-win situation for everybody to accept it.
You couldn't be more correct Frenchy, but everyone involved needs to be very clear (perhaps brutally clear) about how they define "win". Dealing with an aging parent is a very emotional issue and the son/daughter probably has a much different perspective than the SIL/DIL.
My MIL was widowed in '79 and lived alone in a small MO town until this year. She managed quite well until a couple of years ago when she had to give up driving. Over the years, she had also "shrunk" her life quite a bit and rarely went upstairs or to the basement.
She was hospitalized in early January and "the kids" finally decided that they had to "do something". She wanted nothing to do with a nursing home or assisted living arrangement (and doesn't really need it yet). Since we live in CA, one of her sons lives in WA, and the other one lives in NC, it became a question of which one would take her in. That was actually a "no brainer". My wife has always been very close to her mother and - in her family - it's a given that daughters assume primary responsibility for aging parents.
When my wife flew to MO in January, the plan was to bring my MIL here for an extended stay to recuperate. I completely supported this plan thinking that it would be a good way to "test the waters" before anyone made any final decisions. A few days after my wife got to MO, however, she called and told me that they were going to clean out the house, put it up for sale, and she was bringing her Mom to CA to live with us.
After nine months, it just isn't working. We had planned on getting my MIL involved with a local senior center and a church; and have signed her up with a program that provides low cost transportation for seniors. She, however, has refused to do any of it. She hasn't gone anywhere since January unless my wife drove her and for the past couple of months, my wife has been arranging her work schedule around her mothers trips to the doctor, stores, etc.
My wife has some health issues of her own and has found that having her mother around 24/7 is really becoming a problem. Unfortunately, she can't bring herself to tell her Mom that something has to change so she grits her teeth and tries to make it be ok. I'm also certain that anyone reading this can sense my anger and frustration. - lol
I guess that the moral of this story is that caring for an elderly relative is going to be one of the most difficult things you'll ever do. Whether the living arrangements are under the same roof, or in separate spaces, there's much more involved than just the configuration of the rooms. Everyone involved needs to be totally and completely clear about what it will take to make it work for them. Obviously, compromises will be necessary, but they can't be worked out unless everyone is up front about how they feel.
Dave, sorry to hear about your frustration. My mom is a couple of states away with my brother and his wife. They complain about it when I give them an ear. I asked if mom could come out for an extended stay but none of them took us up on it. That was when we were in a large ranch on a single floor. Now we are in a tri-plex with no bathroom or bedroom on the main floor. I'm not sure how we would work it. I worked with the elderly and they don't like steps.
I wonder what the stats are on multi generational living in other countries. I'll bet it is the norm in a lot of them. They must have "brutally clear" discussions all the time and it is just the way they live. It would be interesting to experience it and "see" the difference in the attitudes/interactions families have.
Some of my frustration is that neither of the BIL's have even hinted that they would like to have their Mom visit them for a while. - lol. On Mothers Day, one of them sent my wife a floral arrangement and a card that said "Thanks for taking care of Mom." At first, I thought that it was a nice gesture, but upon further review, I thought "Is that your best shot?"
Before she came here, she actually racked up quite a few frequent flyer miles visiting us or her oldest son. She made at least one trip to CA or WA every year and often went to both. The other son is a bachelor and went to MO fairly often. She also was very active in the local senior center and church, managed to get her own groceries, and attended other functions. Now, she seems totally content just being here and has no interest in any outside activity other than going to church - if my wife takes her. Our daughters have offered to take her to their homes or on a shopping trip for an afternoon, but she isn't interested. I've realized that people who keep saying that "I don't want to be a bother" need to be watched even more closely than other folks. - lol
I know for certain that other cultures deal with this better than we do. We have a large Indian and Asian population here and some of my neighbors have parents living with them. A couple of them have quietly told me that although it's more customary for them, they have many of the frustrations that I have.
An increasingly common remodeling project here will involve a major gut and rebuild to create separate living spaces. The city is even working on permitting changes that will allow (and control) building multiple living spaces in single family residence areas. Two houses in my neighborhood have been rebuilt to add second stories for separate living spaces.
This is way outside my area of competence, but make sure she isn't suffering from treatable depression. It sounds like a fairly sudden loss of interest in life in general and depression is common among old folks.
I don't think that she's lost interest in life as much as she has substituted my wife for her entire social circle. Her reluctance to go anywhere on her own comes from her lifelong unease with new situations and strangers. There's no question that she was lonely when she lived alone and I think that being able to "visit" with my wife all day, every day, completely fulfills her need for social interaction.
We both work at home and are here most of the time - leaving as necessary for our businesses. OK, to be perfectly honest, I've been making some extra trips just to get out of here for a while. - lol) If my wife is here, my MIL hangs on her like a cheap suit. If she leaves for a while, when she comes home, my MIL reminds me of a small child who can't wait to tell Mommy all about her day.
Boy can I relate--I wonder if your MIL and mine are sisters...
More great ideas, thanks guys. When I built my first (and present) home I made all my halls and stairways 48", gave up some bedroom space of course but it makes live so much easier getting furniture in and out. Had a EMT friend over once and he remarked that it sure makes getting someone out of the house in a stretcher so much easier. Our home is a tri-level with a basement and the wife says three sets of stairs is too much for our future home. Looks like at this time I will be building a ranch with a full basement.
I am still looking at ICF's but the "Mooney Wall" looks good too. It will all come down to $$$ when the final decisions are made. What is your learned opinion on the pros and con's of the two choices? This a subarctic climate, if I remember correctly around 4500 degree days heating zone and earthquake active area. We average a 3-4 Richter size quake every year and potentially a 7+ is possible since we live with in a couple of miles of a historically active fault.
Thanks
Jim
Dave,
Your explanation of the difficulties involved in supporting your wife's perception of her duty as a daughter is one we can all take to heart. I've been more fortunate in that regard and your story points that out to me in a way that makes me better appreciate that.
I've seen my cousins left with a much larger burden, one that will require financial sacrifices by all of them for years. Having a parent in a nursing home costs about $75,000/yr, so I've recently heard.
It seems to me that you're well within your rights to demand that your wife's siblings pay their fair share of all the costs associated with caring for their mother, in your home or elsewhere. I would include all the remodeling expenses required to give her an independent kitchen and whatever else is needed to make her presence in your home an amiable arrangement for you all.
Best wishes, Peter
For now, there isn't any financial burden. My MIL has a fair bit of money and is paying enough "rent" to cover the cost of her being here.
I've also made it VERY clear that when/if assisted living or a nursing home becomes necessary, the brothers will pony up their share.
There was a minor "debate" when her house sold. The younger brother made some noises about her "gifting" some of the profit now. I told him to look up the Medicaid rules about the five year lookback at financial records and be prepared to return the "gift" on demand. That seemed to put that little fire out pretty quickly. - lol
I'm probably stepping over the line here. But I'd try to tap into the church more if you can. That is one of the main reasons for church. They should have an active program for the elderly. Maybe you can get some help there. It is the only thing she is getting out for so it must be important to her. Some churches are better at this than others so ask around. I'd be looking for some younger women who would take your mother in law on as a friend. Lunch dates and all that.
I'd be looking for some younger women who would take your mother in law on as a friend.
When I read that, I almost died laughing. In my twisted little (alleged) mind, I thought "To hell with my MIL............ I should look for some younger women to take ME on as a "friend!!"
I know you didn't mean it like that, but thanks for the laugh.
Get your mind out of the gutter, man!. I didn't mean that young. Just a little bit younger. Maybe they are still driving and they could go out cruising.
This conversation is in danger of degrading to the level of a guy I heard of that went to a psychiatrist. The shrink showed him several ink blots and and asked the guy what he saw. With every ink blot, the guy described something sexual.
Finally the shrink told the guy he was a real pervert. The guy responded with "I'm not a pervert............you're the one with the dirty pictures!!" - lol
popawheelie,
McMansions are going to be their own punishment to most poorly educated buyers.. cheaply made is inherently poor quality. The size alone doesn't make it a McMansion.
When I was a little boy my father bought a house in one of those new post war housing tracts. Some farmers field planted with houses instead of crops.. there were only three style homes a left entry 3 bedroom ranch, a right entry 3 bedroom ranch, and a center entry 2 bedroom ranch. the left entry and right entry were just mirror images of the other.. The advantage of those developments were young post war veterans could own their own home for something like $85.00 a month. Nothing down.. It was cheaper than rent..
None of those tract homes remain.. They've all been added to or remodeled so completely that they are basically new houses.. They are also where the young starting out couples and fresh immigrants move to. McMansions are no different.. they tend to be cheap. They will cost as much or more as a properly built house does over the long term but it's in maintenance costs and higher energy bills..
The u shaped house with wings alows the back side
One I've been playing with for my own purposes (if also thinking of my own folks) is a pair of Ls forming a square. This has been appealing in that one of the Ls can be "broken" into two units, while retaining the overall scheme.
Nothing definite yet, though (keep pulling out the Stickley "courthouse" and FLW Usonians--a mix which may not be the best).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
talisker2
Wow, you are decribing my home exactly.
I have one married college graduate daughter and one still in college plus one grandchild. (1yrold)
They have the second story we live on the first.. the floor between has foam insulation to provide privacy..
They enter thru a common area off the kitchen (joint) and go upstairs to their own rooms.. (with privacy locks on them).. The bathroom is shared but set so that who ever is in the bathroom can secure it for privacy.. in an emergency the down stairs bathrooms are used. I would have loved to give each their own bathroom but space and budget prevented it..
The adults (er grandparents) live on the scond floor and the garage and shop are all on the first floor.. there is an attic (600sq.ft) which can be finished and turned into a (non-legal) large play room. (for it to be legal requires stairs when the only access is a ladder)..
This is all set on less than 2000 sq.ft. heat rises so it's relatively easy to heat the first floor have it rise to the second and third and finally into the attic before it's lost.
go to 94941.1 and 85891.1 to see what I'm speaking about..
Edited 10/17/2007 3:03 pm ET by frenchy
I would agree with most that 2 separate structures would be preferable (maybe att. with a breeze-way or a shared garage)...I know in AK, a garage is mandatory. Shelternerd's design (toned way the hell down!) is the idea here.
Of course, you have unique conditions relative to most of us. Should you have a shared heat source? Shared power, or 2 meters? You need to first determine which parts of your dwelling(s) will be common, and which won't. That's your starting point for designing.
Btw, I used to live in Wasilla...I built my first house in Big Lake on 2.2 acres I bought for $11,000 in '99. Later sold the house (1350 s.f., 2-story cedar gambrel w/ full basement) for $145k...Curious what the cost to build there is these days? How's the re-sale market? Cripes, got snow yet?
Hi Pinko
I bought my lot 2.2 ac for 35 in 04, cost to build is hard to quantify, I really don't know. Concrete is around $125. yd last I checked. The market is slow but a 30 yr old home recently remodeled two doors down sold in about 6 weeks from me for near list price I think here in So. Anch.
The lot is only zoned for single family no duplexes. I don't think I will have a problem having a good sized home though, how it is laid out will be my business. We are working on the "shared" area, looks like a basement and one or two stories at this time, separate wood shop and a 3 car garage.
Nope no snow in town, Flat top has snow as well as Glenn Alps. We might get some next week.
Jim
Hmmm, yea, I wouldn't call the project a "duplex." Call it a (single residence) house with a MIL suite. Don't know how strict the building dept. is there now...In the Valley, though, no one permitted for anything back in the day. And no one cared.Things started to get quite pricey when I left...had to drill a new 120' well to sell the house and it cost me $5K...6" steel casing only--no pump, no line, no nothin'.. Conc. here in my part of FL is about $85/yd. 7/16 OSB is at 5.24 a sheet @ HD...I can get 3/4" Advantech for $21..I'm right now building a small house for about $45 s.f. (lot already paid for).. Lovin' it like McDonald's.Nevertheless, were it not for the high COL there (ironically), I might still be collecting dividends for my family of 7! Sweet.Snow's a-comin' down the mountains, eh? Won't be long now. Anyway, whatever your design, my best $.02 on the construction... metal roof, spray-foam insulation, splurge on good windows, heat with wood (jotul stoves are the best)...short driveways are better.
Pinko, thanks for the 2c, points well taken, I have lived here going on 47 years and share the same ideas. I would like to install a "Tulikivi" fireplace but imagine I will have to settle for a Joutl, it depends on how much the "kids" kick into the financing. Yup the PFD's are sweet, concernced about a few years from now they will be more than 2k+, it will be intersting to see what kind of trash that brings up here. I don't Jay Hammond ever thought it would be anywhere near that much. There is talk of caping it but I doubt it will get done.
Jim
95834.34 in reply to 95834.1 <i>I would agree with most that 2 separate structures would be preferable (maybe att. with a breeze-way or a shared garage)...I know in AK, a garage is mandatory. Shelternerd's design (toned way the hell down!) is the idea here.</i>Around here (NC)the Dog Trot house style was historically popular. I think this would be great for a Live in Relative situation. Enclosed/screened/3 season common living space in the middle of 2 (or heck 3) separate suites could be ideal. Great for the older generation to still spend time as part of the family, but have their own space as well.
We looked long and hard for a house that would allow my family of 5 to function on a "normal" level while also caring for my 87 year old mother-in-law. We have two musically inclined (think electric guitar, bass, violin and drums) teenagers and a ten year-old that have friends sleep over a lot. My MIL goes to bed at 8 or 9 pm.
We needed her space to be quiet and free from the commotion of the rest of the house, yet also allow her to be a part of our family. We ended up building an 800 square foot attached apartment on the same level as our kitchen and living areas. She is on one end of the house, so my son and daughters can terrorize "our" home and my MIL can enjoy her peaceful abode.
With our living areas on the same level, she can navigate throughout the necessary parts of both homes with a walker. She now requires almost constant care, so this floor plan allows us to move back and forth quickly and easily as well. It is a great set-up that allows us to live "separately together".
The absolute best thing we did is give her a separate heat source. There is no way on God's green earth that I could live in an 80 degree home!
You may also want to consider storage, garage and parking areas; handicapped accessible bathrooms; 3' wide, low-threshold doors and wide hallways. Oh, did I mention separate heat sources?
Have fun--you are doing great to be planning that far in advance.