I have a client with two fairly new exterior pine doors that seasonally warp about 1/4″ top and bottom.
Has anyone retrofitted doors with multipoint locks?
Any recommendations on hardware?
Thanks
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Replies
Greetings s,
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again which will increase it's viewing.
Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
94969.19
In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
Thanks Rez.
Well........
What do people do?
Tear them out and start again.
Not very green is it?
These three point systems need a very carefully routed channel for the mechanicals to fit in. When I need these, I ask my supplier to provide both the CNC routing of the groove and the mechanics to go with it. That way, it'll fit just right.
Are you saying that you have the door routed and hardware provided before you install the door?
Not generally a retrofit application then?
The several times I've done them, it's been retrofits with whole new frames being installed - prehungs. One way is with the hardware already installed, the other has the hardware installed after on site finishing. One can see the depth, detail and accuracy of the routed channel this way.
I would personally not wish to install the hardware while the door is installed. But I don't claim any skills over routing or chiseling. Which would be necessary to do so.
That seems like an awful lot of movement for properly constructed and finished doors and I suspect that you mean expansion and contraction instead of warping.
Retrofitting some kind of multi-point locking system should be fairly straightforward as long as the lock points (bores, plates, etc) are large enough to function at either extreme of movement.
If that isn't an option, new doors made from something less suseptible to expansion and contraction may be necessary.
It is more movement than I would like to see for sure, but not at the extreme end of the spectrum for the winter weather we get here.
The doors are alternately laminated pine solid doors of medium quality. By no means top of the line.
When I look around at other wooden doors on other properties I see similar warping/deflection of the doors at this time of year.
The Pella french doors I installed last year have tapered bolts at the top and bottom that pulls the doors into place.
I just wondered what is out there for retrofit and other people's experiences/opinions.
If you could live with a surface mounted latching system, two of those sliding latches (one on top and one at the bottom) might do the job, but it won't be very pretty.If you gotta have something that's inside the door stile, new doors would probably be the least costly and most effecient solution.
I have considered surface mount bolts but it would not be pretty.
I would pull the door and make sure the top and bottom are sealed properly.Put a temporary door back in.
Then I would set the door on a set of horses bow up and put a layer of cardboard and about 4 bags of concrete in the middle for a week.Checking with a straight edge.Then repaint and stain.
Then I would mount a top and bottom throw bolts for a season to help hold it in place.
It should take a proper set if you are vigilent.
ANDYSZ2 WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I half considered a process like that to try reset the door but the risk of it not working or reverting to present form and making me look foolish is not worth the agro.
I would prefer to correct and prevent on a confident and permanent basis hence my curiousity about integral multipoint locks.
Next time I will spec better doors with what I see as modern hardware.
Should never really let clients dictate choice of doors or painters.
I am not sure there is a guarantee with wood doors that they won't warp.
Is this the front door?
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I agree. Wood door probably equals warping in the long run.
That is why a hardware solution to make them stay put seems to be best.
Two doors, front and back. Actually dozens of doors when I think about it.
Historically people accepted the flaws in wood doors in exchange for the appeal but not so much anymore.
One nightmare that comes to my mind was a customer who chose butcher block maple counter tops for entry doors. The GC had tried to drill the top and bottom strike rod holes and burnt drill motors and broke bits, drilling that engrain. This was a pair of 3/0-8/0 slabs. Made by Bally Block, nearby.
My solution was to rip the door edge off centered about where the actuater rod needed to go. I then routed a dado in each half and reglueed the rip back on. I could have just made one dado but there was a drill bit broke off way down deep, so the rip had to be placed accuratly..he was drifting as he tried to drill, and it was getting scary.
Maybe a similar approach would work for you?
I'd personally re-vamp the weather strip, Resorce Con. has so many choices, I buy in bulk and try to keep an asst. in stock. Living in a log house, I find very creative uses for a lot of the offerings they have.
But I'd have to see the door and interface to make a good solution.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
By coincidence these are in a log home too.
What is the web site you referenced? Nothing came up for me.
I have thought of weatherstrip but so many products do not really apply.
Try this.
http://www.conservationtechnology.com
Awesome place, hard to get a hard copy cat. good online viewing. Seriously, you should stock up on the various items.
zeroed in. http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_weatherseals.html
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Edited 2/18/2009 10:14 am ET by Sphere
Actually I have already been in touch with them but when very specific questions are asked their products don't quite do it.
I would really like to use their silicone W15 seal but it won't cover the measured warpage and variation in clearance and the product they recommend is already on the doors.
Cheers
Have you checkd w/a straight edge and determined where the issue lies? The best thing you can own for a log home is a 6' edge that is deadnuts on.
You might be chasing your tail if you haven't determined the planes, I know I did here. I built a D log home, and had similar issues, but it was new cypress logs all uniform more or less on a new foundation, my place is the other end of the spectrum and requires a whole new set of skills.
Or, ya have a bad door..LOL
Nothing can't be fixed. As far as surface bolts..that is stupid and against fire code I'd think. And, if it is a log home, most of us get used to the wonky fits and drafts, and carry on..if badgers are getting thru them cracks, get a gun.
Slot the door edge and add a strip of steel..then a Magnetic door strip. Leave a 1/16 of wood..a router with a slot bit will follow the warp, and the mag strip will greet the gap.
Change the hinge point to pinch the fit...
All roads lead to Rome. Find one you can do.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Checked with straight edge, its the doors.
6 x 12 square log thru bolted and cranked tight. Surprisingly good system and on ICF foundation so no problems there either. Just slightly wonky doors.
Not my home otherwise I would consider the problem almost insignificant in the great scheme of things.
Thought about mag strips too.
Just looking for and exploring as many options as any and all can conjure up.
Cheers
If it is seasonal as you say, and pulling to the interior away from the WS..then yeah. They are drying to the inside and the stiles are warping/ or swelling to the outside.
Increase the RH inside and re-paint/varnish the out side to aim for a balance..I'd never jump through the hoops like that unless I was getting compensated handsomly, you are on a mission at this point.
Again, is the door worth it?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
HRV with humidistat on the inside is controlling RH.
Compensation is always handsome otherwise staying home is an option.
Jumping through hoops helps get me paid handsomely.
It is always a mission to learn and improve upon old techniques.
Not sure if the doors are worth it but gonna find out eventually.
Interesting point about painting wood doors. I have come to believe that unless they are hermetically sealed in plastisized membrane they will do contrary things. Also finding a painter that will read/listen to manufacturers instructions is like finding hen's teeth. I can't do everything myself you know! :)
I guess I had hoped multi-point locks would be a relatively simple, elegant and aesthetically pleasing solution but not necessarily the cheapest either.
I don't see the problem , nor have to work it. So, when even the consortium of BT fails, ya grab it and go with your gut.
Failure is common, until ya do a surgical proceedure, and even then..the patient often dies.
In my work, there is gonna be a lot towels sopping up the blood..go head and leave one in the incision, so the next operator can find you ask wtf you did..you are in over your head right now. Or beside your self. Either way, you ain't finding a cure, and have issue with that.
I can relate, been there Done that, that is why I am often called upon to do the impossible...you got to stand back and down and let it show itself..don't keep getting in the way by thinking that it has to cost X amount..it takes what it takes.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
You didn't tell us that before.
I think there is as good a chance of wall movement and settling causing problems as the door warping.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Amen to that. My logs are like concrete being so old, so they don't actually have issues, but the foundation (rock piers, frost heave) can be a problem.
Seems that every new door I installed, all steel therma-true or jenweld have warped. Crossbuck bottom, glass top. It is not the jamb, it's krappy damm doors. These were just to get us weathered in,and I intend to make all new doors..jeeze I got 4 3/0-6/8 and a french at 6/0-6/8 ( that is reclaimed interior doors, full view , TDL).
But that heave on the jambs could stress it to bow, in my case.
I don't know what the OP has going on, but I'd sure check that out as you have pointed out.
I recently had to buy a kit of Add-on jamb strips that attach to the stops, bec. the door was so wonky, the orig. ws. and even addon in the same groove, was not gonna work. To get by, I rolled paper towel into a slim rope and packed the crease in the orig. ws. to fatten it up..but thats a fussy operation.
I hate new doors..I'll make my own.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Definitely not the log movement. That was all properly detailed and attended to.
Typically the logs settle onto the jambs and prevent the door from operating at all.
All the other sliders and interior door are fine so log shrinkage is not the problem in this case.
So your only alternative left is to remove door stops scribe new ones to fit and relocate catches.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Solid jambs rabbited.
"Typically the logs settle onto the jambs and prevent the door from operating at all."
Nope..they settle and the jamb legs take the heat and bow. Pinched by the weight above the head jamb is not in play, so the legs become bearing load. If the strike fits, it stays good, the lower and upper go out.
Is this gappage in and out or sideways?
A picture would help.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
We use to install french bolts on one of each pair of french doors. Inside edge, one at the top and another at the bottom. No big deal route a grove, mortice the bolt, drill holes top and bottom of frame/floor, done, 20 minutes max!
So are you asking about a latching system that is integral to the door handle? Same thing, but route a groove from top to bottom. Install hardware, glue in patch, refinish.
Anyone know where you can get such a system?
Two comments. First, a lot of doors these days are weatherstripped with Q-Lon or similar, which exerts pressure against the door along it's entire length, while a typical latch only restrains it at one point. I have seen doors that I believed warped over time because of this pressure. Second, paint and other finishes do not stop vapor movement. Over time, differences between humidity inside and out can cause a wood door to warp. A lot of exterior doors that I look at aren't really very flat.
There is some contraction but it is definitly a warping issue.
The top and bottom move in about 3/16 - 1/4" and away from the weatherstrip.
The bolt in the middle maintains the seal at that point.
How tall are the doors?
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
The doors are 3' x 6'10" IIRC.
Ok I thought it might have been an 8' door which tends to warp.
Next question is it warped year round or seasonally?
Second question is it used all the time or occasionally?
Third is it painted or stained?
Fourth does it have water contacting it routinely(sprinkler no overhang etc.)?
All these questions are to find cause and effect.
You can actually bring a door back to near straight especially if you can latch it at top and bottom.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Hi Andy,
Seasonal warping in the winter.
Regular use.
Varathane interior/stain exterior. Usual hack painters that do not understand proper finishing details so I expect humidity changes drive the movement.
2' and 4' overhangs/ no sprinklers.
It seemed to me that it could be straightened with the appropriate hardware.
Gary's website has a video on retrofitting multi point locks.
http://www.garymkatz.com/trimtechniques/multi-point-lock.html
There are also articles in the FHB Archives that show the jigs you could make so that you don't feel like you have to invest in $1500 worth of festool routers and accessories.
You may need to subscribe to the FHB Website to access the articles.
Hey that's just the thing.
A great ad for Festool and just mildly pedantic. I had to skip through a bit to get to the point and not drool over the keyboard looking at the toolage.
I wonder what hardware he used?
Thanks
As another poster stated, surface mounted slide latches. I had to install them on a dutch door in my home. I got some of those hand forged looking pieces, flat black etc. etc., actually looks quite attractive. Holds the doors in place.
I had considerered surface mount but would need to have it operable from both sides and I suspect my client would veto the look anyway.
Thanks
you only use it when your inside to help the door take a proper set and you can sell it as extra security.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Hopefully it's not an important door for fire egress.
Egress would be a big issue!
Gotta be quick an easy to exit!
Main floor at grade.
Security maybe, but safety first.
Cheers
Throw bolts are not a fire or safety violation in fact they have to be the easiest to unlock of any fastening system I know.No key to look for just pull open and go.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST