After traveling in Europe where mini-splits are everywhere, I decided to look into including them in my remodel in southern California. After all the reading and research this looked like THE way to go. Equipment not too expensive, efficient, maybe even I could install myself basd on the blogs and reviews. Then I got three quotes from local HVAC installers. Not one was under $20K for one two zone (8k BTU each) and one three zone (10K to 12K btu each) system. Plus ducting (for a ductless system), electrical and hoses for drains from the wall units. From equipment that would cost less than $7K to a $20K project.
Seems that there is way more to this than is being talked about.
First, even if you do install yourself, Manufacture’s warranties are void if not installed by certified HVAC folks.
Second, they need to be charged by a certified HVAC person.
Third, if you need a permit, doing it yourself is out
Fourth, if it breaks and you did it yourself, no HVAC shop will touch it.
and last – unless you are competent reading the install manual – good luck.
So it seems all this yak about mini-splits being the easy answer is hot air (pun intended). Or I was being “hosed” by the installers.
I decided to go with plug in baseboard heaters for the winter and fans in the summer.
I invite your comments . . .
Replies
So, that $20,000 to install... what does that include?
Does it inlude setting up ladders and staging on the outside of the house? Cutting siding and reflashing the penetrations? Making a place for the external pieces to reside? How about running electrical? Going throught the permit process?
I'll bet you could do ALOT of footwork that would make an instal quick and easy.
You could read the installation instructions, find the relevant sections regarding mount points, power feeds, penetrations, etc. You can do all of that before the installer gets there.
Break it down - what does the HVAC Pro REALLY need to do? Is it mount the inside Piece, Outside Piece, Connect Lines, Fill Lines, Connect Power, Attach Thermostat System. I'f that's all they actually need to do, I'll bet you can get that price dropped significantly.
Ballpark
a small single head system would cost me $4000-5000 retail, all included. Talking about two systems with five zones total, no surprise it's around 20K. Lots of lines to run, lots of piping, that can be a lot of work in a finished house.
mr slim inverter system.
re - I'f that's all they actually need to do, I'll bet you can get that price dropped significantly.
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I second this, and it doesn't hurt to look around and talk to more operators, some which you can establish a working relationship instead of simply being a customer.
About to start doing the grunt work running copper/elec on a nine zone/three compressor Mr. Slim Inverter type heat pump system for both AC and heat. All with wireless remote with timer function and dry mode for dehumidification among other features.
Installer offered the option of me doing the line runs, etc. and he was actually happy to do so.
Installer will take care of ordering/delivering all necessary supplies, permit/inspection, and hooking up and starting up the system.
He met with me several times to discuss and offer his suggestions for running copper and electric and location of outside units, which resulted in a much better plan for the project and will make my part of job a lot easier.
System will be fully warranted by Mistubishi.
I am digging a short trench for the 220 supply between service disconnect and compressors.
System we agreed on consistes of:
36000 for 12,000+9,000+9,000, with room for a fourth.
30000 running 9000+9000+6000
30000 running 9000+6000+6000
All three compressors will be hung on wall brackets, which he will also handle.
Total cost for me will be under $16,000, and the Mistubishi system is probably considered more costly than other brands.
Sanyo and LG also came highly recommended, but ultimately the installer you feel comfortable working with can weigh heavily and I was fortunate this coincided with my final preference for the Mr. Slim system.
I'm having a house built in SE Massachuseets. The GC wants to install a whole house dehumidifier in the lower (walk-out) level. I'm thinking that expanding the mini-split system to that level will be more efficient (and more functional).
He is installing Fujitsu system in the upper (primary living are). They have a Dry Mode that supposedly removes humidity.
What has been your experience with the system's controling humidity?
This must be a California thing
have 2 mini splits, professionally installed and I paid less than $3k each in Florida. They are single zone units tho.
I also question your comment that you can't get any HVAC contractor to work on a unit that you installed yourself. Service work is generally a separate profity center foir these guys and they don't really care who installed it but if you screwed up the install, fixing it right might approach or even exceed the price it would have cost to have them do it.
MD, please excuse my bad manners, but I wonder if you're just trying to stir the pot ...
There's a place for mini-splits- but no method is always the 'best.' Each method has it's advantages.
Warranties vary by manufacturer. Fujitsu tries very hard to protect its' dealer base, while Freidrich doesn't care one bit. This is reflected in their warranty policies.
ANY air conditioner must be serviced (at least, if you mean 'handle the Freon) by someone with the EPA license.
Permit laws vary by place. Some places won't let you work on your own gas lines or do your own electrical service changes.
Don't know where you find the choosey HVAC servicemen. Heck, just scan "HVAC Talk" and you'll see these guys will work on anything. It's all $$$$.
Reading and learning before doing ... what a concept!
There's a reason HVAC is called a 'skilled trade.' I question your assumption that requiring competence is proof of an evil conspiracy or dishonesty.
ANY air conditioner must be serviced (at least, if you mean 'handle the Freon) by someone with the EPA license.
Only the 'old' stuff. Most new mini-spits have R-410A, no EPA license needed.
Ya do have to have a vacuum pump though...
These DIY machines come precharged.
They don't do the pre-filled lines anymore?
Lines are not prefilled, they have a standard 15 ft line set, and the charge in the outdoor unit is set to include the 15 ft line.
All you need for a R-410A unit is a vacuum pump and gauge. < $200 on ebay or similar, or evn use an old 120V scroll compressor for vacuum pump (220V will NOT work, it will arc over inside when you pull vacuum)
1. Install all the mechanicals
2. Wire it up, most locals require a disconnect at the outdoor unit.
3. Run the line set and attach the flare fittings, being sure to oil the flares (POE oil best) and use the correct torque. You do not need a torque wrench even, a fish scale and pair of wrenches works fine.
4. Connect the vacuum, pull < 300 microns for a few hours to verify no leaks.
5. Close vacuum hose valve, open valves on outdoor unit to charge the lines and indoor unit.
6. Disconnect the vac hose at scrader valve and cap schrader with brass cap, oil and torque it also.
7. Turn it on.
Just did this 3 months ago on a Klimaire 18K 19 Seer unit, took less ;than 1 hour not counting waiting for vacuum dwell time.
I think they tell you that you can just purge the new line with some of those units that sell for a grand on Ebay. I understand you are talking about doing it right but I bet there are thousands that get done the hack way.
No EPA license for R-410A? I think you are wrong. I'm not sure if the 7K includes all materials. In my area (PA) a single minisplit may be about $3000-3500 by a reputable contractor. I had a few installed at aout church. A unit with two air handlers was as much as two separate units. Went that way anyone on one to avoid having two condensing units. 20K sound high, but if you are in a high priced area of CA it does not surprise me. I think they are best for single room additions, etc. Trying to do a whole house can be pricey. On the other hand, so can adding new ductwork. Look into high velocity systems. They can be easier to retrofit and can work well when installed by someone who knows what they are doing, but also can be pricey.
Get two or three quotes from reputable contractors for similar quality equipment. If they are close in price, then thats the price. If it seems excessive, then become an HVAC contractor.
From the governments official epa site:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/technicians_contractors_faq.html
Are there any restrictions on the purchase of hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) refrigerants?
HFCs are not ozone-depleting substances, however they have high global warming potentials (GWPs). At this time the purchase of HFC refrigerants is not restricted. (For example, there is no technician certification requirement for those that purchase HFC refrigerants, such as R-410A or R-134a.)
Are there any limitations on the use of HFC refrigerants?
Yes, a specific HFC refrigerant must be found acceptable as a substitute for a specific end use by the Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) Program. A list of acceptable refrigerant substitutes is available from the EPA web site. In addition, it is illegal to knowingly vent or release these refrigerants. The venting prohibition applies to R-134a, R-410A, and all other HFC refrigerants, just as it does for ozone-depleting refrigerants like R-22.
Is EPA technician certification required to service R-410A systems?
No, at this time EPA technician certification (i.e., EPA Section 608 certification) is not required in order to service R-410A systems or other stationary refrigeration and air conditioning systems containing HFCs.