Replies

1. 
   hammer1 | Jun 19, 2010 09:43pm | #1

   It would be very unusual, at least in my area, for an 8 yr. old house not to have a perimeter drain system both inside and outside at the footing level, below your slab. Simply look in the sump pump hole and you should see the drain pipes coming into the pump hole. This means that you don't need a "keyway" system, you already have a system. If you had a problem, the basement would be flooding.

   Hairline cracks are not unusual in a poured foundation. They might not need any attention unless water is seeping through. If water is coming through, the best fix is to do it from the outside. This means digging but only in that particular spot. It's only a little shovel work and can often be done in a few hours if you can work around the landscaping bushes and the foundation wasn't backfilled with boulders, which it shouldn't have been.

   It's possible your sump pump is in need of replacement, particularly if you are in a wet spot and it runs all the time and sits in water. A good quality sump pump is under $200, most last many years. Ones with battery back up can be closer to $300.

   Sounds to me like you should be talking to a handyman or small remodeling contractor, not a waterproofing company. You didn't mention any water problems. They are just trying to sell you what they would do in an older house without a perimeter drain system. If you don't have flooding issues, you don't need them.

1. 
   RosieT | Jun 20, 2010 01:24pm | #5

   I did some research and it looks like this company Midatlantic is famous for recommending this keyway system. I haven't had any flooding in the basement at all. The sump pump does run mostly when we have had rain. Also you can see  rust stains and white powdery substance they said was lime around the crack which is about 5 feet long. Another company said they will excavate the affected wall area and seal any severe cracks using epoxy or cement mixtures. Then they would use Vapor Seal with Plasmatic Core  8'x4' sheets using a high density tar adhesive on the exterior wall surfaces. I am quoting this off the estimate. This estimate was $3,000. The keyway estimate with a new sump pump from Midatlantic started at $12,000 and he went down to $6,800 after a 2 1/2 hours and my head spinning around from all the double talk. Thanks for your help. rosie

1. 
   Norman | Jul 13, 2010 10:34am | #10

   Run in the other direction!

   From anybody who gives you a $12k quote that drops to less than $7k in 3 hours. This is a "we tried to fork you all the way, which didn't work: so how much can we fork you?" scam. Never buy anything from anyone who presents in this way.

   Regarding the basement, have you listed the house? What does the agent say about the crack? Or a competent home inspector? You seem convinced that you must fix this prior to offering the house for sale. Are you sure this is necessary?

   Just wondering. Good luck.

2. 
   Piffin | Jun 19, 2010 10:04pm | #2

   I would totally forget the latter. That is a system for catching and directing water that leaks in and will do nothing to fix a leak or to make a foundation more structurally sound. It is a half baked method for those unwilling to make real repairs or to dig up outside.

   Without seeing the crack to know for sure how extensive the problem is, I cannot say definitively whether diging is needed.

   A hairline shrinkage crack can be ignored if no water is seeping in. If it is over an eigth inch or shows signs of movement or has water penetration, then repairs are needed. I would be likely to use epoxy injection for your situation as I understand it. Might be doable for as little as $1500. Look for foundation repair people, not just waterproofing companies.

   What are the signs that the sump pump doesn't work, other than the salesman said so?

1. 
   RosieT | Jun 20, 2010 01:23pm | #4

   The salesman that recommended the new sump with the keyway system told me the foundation cracked because the 20 gallon sump pump I have was not big enough to begin with and that is why I have the crack in the foundation. He said I needed a 40 gallon sump pump along with that keyway system. The $6,800 estimate  was for a 40 gallon sump pump and to install that keyhole system into 2 walled areas 56 total footage.He said exterior excavation was not necessary. This is the first house I have lived in with a sump pump so I haven't had any signs that it isn't working. The other 2 companies mentioned nothing related to the sump pump not working. Thanks for your reply. rosie

1. 
   DanH | Jun 20, 2010 07:00pm | #7

   Unless the sump pump is running 24/7, there's no evidence that it's undersized.  Water pressure does not cause vertical cracks.

3. 
   DanH | Jun 19, 2010 10:42pm | #3

   A thin (less than, say, 1/16") vertical crack in a concrete foundation wall is fairly normal -- it would be unusual to not have several of these in a house more than 3-4 years old.

   How do you tell when a crack is "serious".  Well, obviously, if there's significant evidence of water leaking through it that's one.  If the crack is wider than roughly 1/8" in a newer home, or wider than 1/4" in a home older than about 25 years that's another.  If the concrete on one side is displaced either up/down or in/out relative to the other side (more than about 1/8").  That's a third.  (Horizontal cracks are also red flags.)

   If you have none of these then the crack can be simply ignored, though there are cosmetic treatments one can do if you're really that fastidious.

   If the crack enters into the "serious" category then more action is needed.  If there is significant water leakage then the "right" fix is to excavate the outside and seal the leak by covering it with a waterproof membrane of some sort.  But note that some leakage can be fixed simply by tending to grading and drainage on the outside -- make sure no water stands near the foundation, add downspout extensions, mud jack slabs tilting towards the foundation, etc.  Nine times out of ten (some say 99 out of 100) fixing the outside drainage fixes the bulk of the water leakage issues.

   Wide cracks or cracks where there is some displacement require a specialist.  It may be that there are footing issues and some shoring up of the foundation is needed.  It may be that expansive soils are a problem.  Fixing the problem may involve excavation or may involve installing steel reenforcements on the inside of the wall. 

   But note that this is probably not an emergency -- you likely have several years to "react", so you can take your time.  But take some "benchmark" measurements to inform yourself and any future specialist as to the severity of the problem.  This means measuring the amount of displacement (and writing it in a log or simply writing with a date on the wall).  For vertical displacement issues simply draw a line across the crack and date it.

   You may find that the cracks "moves" one way or another seasonally.  This is generally evidence of "expansive soils" and knowing this will help your (eventual) specialist design a treatment.

   "Fixing" the sub-slab drainage system (which code requires to already be present in most parts of the country) is unnecessary unless there is ample evidence that it's failed (and a simple crack is not such evidence).  And there's no need to replace the sump pump so long as it's working normally.

   A final note:  You may observe a white crust around the crack and take that as evidence of water leakage.  This crust is known as "eflorescence" and simply indicates that moisture has been slowly migrating through the crack (bringing "salts" with it) and evaporating when it reaches the inside surface of the wall.  This doesn't indicate serious leakage and is actually in the "normal" category, absent other red flags.

4. 
   DanH | Jun 20, 2010 06:56pm | #6

   The "white stuff" isn't

   The "white stuff" isn't evidence of leakage, even if rust colored.  It's evidence of moisture wicking through the concrete, but it could be wicking up from the footer (which is pretty much impossible to waterproof).  If you can see evidence of moisture actually running down the wall that's a (slightly) different matter, but remember even then that you may have simply had condensation on the cold wall behind the storage rack.

   1/16" vertical crack is "normal" and should not be a concern.

   Now, certainly some home inspector may tag it in an attempt to force your price down, but he'll mostly be blowing smoke -- it's his job to bad-mouth the house using any excuse and drive down the price.  About all you can do there is be aware that he's blowing smoke and tell the potential buyer as much.

   But if you want to be able to say it's fixed for sales purposes I'd probably go with one of the epoxy injection schemes that you should be able to have done for a few hundred.

5. 
   Piffin | Jun 29, 2010 06:59pm | #8

   Stay away from that high pressure keyway and sump salesman, he is selling you a 2500 dollar job that you don't need for almost triple the money.

   The ones who would dig outside and inject epoxy and then seal the skin outside are doing it right and they are giving a very good price for the work at three grand.

   Though I disagree with Dan on the signs you see ( I think they do indicate some small amt of water penetration) I do agree that this tiny crack is normal and not very substantial, tho it can get worse over time.

   Since you are selling, one option for you to consider is making a negotiated allowance of a $3000 kickback incentive to the buyer, showing the estimate, IF the buyer brings this item up.

6. 
   mitsumatt | Jul 13, 2010 10:03am | #9

   Used car salesman

   I think midatlantic combes the used car lots for the best and brightest salesmen.