Well, the time has arrived for me to call for help from the folks at Breaktime.
Here’s the deal…yesterday morning one of our clients calls to explain that there’s the smell of (natural) gas in the utility/laundry room in the basement of their brick home built in the early forties. Fifteen minutes later, Dave & I pull in the drive and proceed to the basement where we are greeted by the not quite so distinct smell of natural gas (my nose told me that there was something a bit different). We soap-tested every pipe joint in the room feeding the WH and the boiler, as well as those in the line that goes to the attached garage to supply a unit heater there. We couldn’t find a leak anywhere even tho every joint was tested including those on the main gas valves of these appliances. We also removed the handles from the line valves to test for leaks around the stems. The gas main line enters thru the foundation right there in that room also, so we have every piece of pipe right there in front of us, except those that are in the garage. There’s no problem out there and even if there were, it couldn’t make its way into the basement. The problem is seemingly right there in that room somewhere….it’s the only place with odor.
We then turn our attentions to other possible causes for the odors and discover that the water level in the floor drain of this room is definitely low and gas is emanating. We pour some water in and bring it up to snuff. We leave the premises for about an hour and when we return, all that can be detected is the smell of fabric softener. Success, we like to think…………. but I wasn’t totally at rest in my mind with this because the odors we confronted weren’t just those of sewer gas; there was the twang of natural gas in them I thought. Nonetheless, there’s nothing more to do and so we depart for home about 7 pm.
The phone rings this morning and it’s Carolyn again. The smell was back this morning and so she called the gas company to come over and give it a shot. They sent two people with sniffers and as they entered the basement they exclaimed, ” Boy, you’ve got a gas leak here somewhere.” Well, after combing the place for over an hour including checking outside by the meter and entrance, they proclaimed that they couldn’t find a leak anywhere and that the source of the odor wasn’t natural gas. They then departed. And so, the phone rings and back in we go. Today, the smell was definitely that of unadulterated natural gas. We spent several hours again heavily soaping every joint as well as every inch of pipe this time, searching for the remote but possible crack in a pipe. Nothing to be found. Trap in floor is still full. We checked the flues for obstructions and there are none. …..plenty of draft. We eventually ended up opening two windows in this room late today and closing the door. We checked back in ten minutes and all traces of odor we totally gone. Carolyn says she can do laundry in a chilly room this weekend if needs be.
And so here I am, searching the cumulative experience of Breaktimers for possible causes to the natural gas odor, which no one has yet found. I considered the possibility that one of the main gas valves of these two appliances may not indeed be shutting off completely at the end of a cycle, but is oozing just enough gas to the burner or burner manifold jets to create odor all the while between cycles, but not enough to sustain flame after shutdown. Our noses tell us otherwise as we’ve put them down there and……. both appliances ignite flawlessly upon ignition with no woofing. And………NI Gas found nothing with their sniffers during their visit. Has anyone out there discovered a valve in this condition that did not emit enough odor to detect with the nose or a sniffer? I’ve considered blocking of all but one of the jets on the boiler manifold tree (there’s dozen of them)and then soaping the last one, but so far haven’t done that.
Is there some other possible explanation/cause for this natural gas odor phenomenon that I’m overlooking? Somewhere there’s a cause for this odor. I just have to find it.
Replies
Has there been any painting going on in the house? Those fumes can burn at the pilot/and/or burners and cause an unburnt gas carbon smell. Also, the burner air/gas adjustment can cause fumes.
I heard a rumor that under some conditions the substance that is added to make the smell can get concentrated and do more than they planned.
I am not an expert on this in any form. Just blowin a little gas your way.
Nope, no painting and no air/gas mixtures adjustments have been made. I considered the possibility of a barometric cause for this originally, but that wouldn't be able to sutain itself for two days running with all the comings and goings from this house.
Thanks for the response and keep thinkin'....... you might hit on something. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Oddly enough, had gas lines worked on yesterday, and today I smelled gas. I watched the guy soap test yesterday, and neither of us saw anything. He came back today and his tester was a propane torch. Ran it around the joints until one lit up like a little Bic lighter. Easy fix. He says his testing method is good for getting talkative homeowners to clear the room. I asked about the possibility of blowing ourselves sky high with that, fairly directly, and he was of the opinion that as long as theres pressure in the line . . . I still don't know if I buy it. That's certainly in my book for unconventional methodology.
" You are young, my son, and as the years go by time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters." - Plato
Ye olde flame test, huh? Thanks, but no thanks. I did that manuver once when I was young and dumb and got away with it (found the leak too), but don't have much of an appetitie for provoking disasters of that nature anymore. I reserve my close encounters with death and dismemberment these days to twistin' the throttle on these hilly curvy back country blacktops. If I'm gonna go sudden-like, I wanna do it at 125+ while I'm grinnin'. Plenty of time for flames after that, I fear.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Ran across a similar situation 20 years ago in Hewlett, NY on Long Island. Persistent light odor of natural gas in basement. Plumbers came and went, soaping found no leaks. Gas company called and is on the way when the house explodes. Everything but the front concrete steps is gone. Damage to all surrounding houses. Several injured but, thankfully, no one killed.
Inspection by gas company found leak came from split in pipe leading from main to house. Happened in February. Frozen ground prevented gas from seeping up to escape into the air. They theorize that it just followed the gas supply pipe into the house and collected in the basement until something triggered an explosion.
Don't know where you are, but do you have frozen ground outside?
Griff,
Your notion/experience definitely has some potential resonance to it. Yes, we have frozen ground here in norhtern Illinois. It's just got about 12" down recently and then we had a few days in the upper forties again. The meter is close at hand to the room in question and the dryer vent is also close at hand to that. I'm thinkin' (thanks to your reply) that perhaps the frozen condition could've caused a crack in the underground vertical riser to the meter, followed by the thaw that could then allow the gas to escape and then said gas could be entering the room via the dryer vent, as I know it has no flap-damper on it.......don't ask me why........ it was there that way when we first arrived five years ago. I'm sure NI Gas didn't check it with the sniffer although they did look and sniff around outside. We didn't investigate that avenue any farther than to put our noses to that immediate area inside and out. Didn't smell anything, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Great suggestion. I'll look into that tomorrow..... if not sooner. Depends how nervous I get here after reading your post. These folks have been out main meal ticket for five years now and we can't afford to lose them or the house to an explosion.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Firstly, natural gas (methane) is oderless. A sulfur compound is added to the gas so gas leaks can be detected. Not splitting hairs here--you may be smelling a sulfur odor which is NOT from a natural gas leak. (Something dead or, possibly, growing somewhere down there?)
Shut off all the gas appliances at the appliance (all pilots out) and observe the gas meter over a few hours. If the gauges move, it stands to reason you have a leak between the meter and where all the lines terminate at the shut-offs in the house. If the meter registers no volume of gas over that period of time, you may still have an appliance leaking internally. Turn on the appliances one at a time (keep the pilot turned OFF at the water heater--assuming no other standing pilots) and again check the meter. If still no gas is read, you still may have a gas leak before the meter (as was mentioned previously)---perhaps in the main to the house. Gas leaking underground near a house will escape, and probably into the basement.
Flame test is probably not appropriate in this situation. Verbum sapiente sat est.
Suntoad,
Thanks for the reply. As to the meter check for gas consumption.........we were about to do that, but time had run out for the day and it would require shutting the boiler down for several hours perhaps. I warned them that this may have to be done on the next go around and to don a sweater if necessary. It's definitely the easiest way to go when it comes to checking that WH valve for an oozing leak. The boiler manifold jets can be pretty easily checked for a valve leak there with some foil tape and a little soap........I think. At least everything in there is easy to reach and access.
Dead/growing thingies in the basement??? These are doctors.......the both of them. They wouldn't have such things in their house!! (but we checked around for it anyway and found nothing suspicious).
You suggest good diagnostic procedures and rest assured....they will be done. Likely tomorrow.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
A couple more thoughts on natural gas. Natural gas is lighter then air and tends to float or drift upward if unrestricted. As mentioned earlier, frozen ground or hard surfacing such as concrete or asphalt can hinder the natural dissipation of a leak. Gas will follow the path of least resistance which just may be the loose fill surrounding the buried pipe. This path of least resistance just might lead to your riser or meterset. In years past some meters were installed inside buildings allowing gas the opportunity to approach or even penetrate foundations. Unfortunately the cause of the leak may not be immediately visible. Large excavators can hook and pull on underground gas mains damaging a lateral line or service some distance away. As to the odor issue, odorizers are set to odorize at a level high enough to provide ample warning via your nose. As you all can appreciate mechanical objects sometimes act up. If the odorizer was OVER odorizing the chemical added to gas to give it it's characteristic odor may not completely combust and leave some residual odor from the operation of your gas dryer or water heater. The odorant used by our local gas company is heavier then air and as such will settle out maintaining the presence or detection by nose long after the gas has safely risen into the atmosphere following an open air damage. Interestingly moisture will strip out the odorant in damp, wet or foggy conditions. In these cases the odor is detected long after a leak or damage has been repaired. I have heard stories of using a match or torch for leak detection but sure would not recommend it. The best detection is likely your utilities sniffer device.
123,
Thanks for the info about the odorizer being heavier than air and the thought about an extra dose of it in there. I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps a check with the neighbors would reveal if they've had any extra odor around their place recently.....another thing to check if further tests/checks are initially inconclusive.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Don't have time to read the thread again in detail - Gotta get on the road to see the in-laws fer Christmas. So I mighta missed something.
But based on what's been said so far, I would guess either the guys thinking it's coming in from outside might be on the right track.
If that's not the dcase, I'd tend to think it's one of the appliances. Don't know if you were able to get inside and check all the connections and stuff on those.............
Hope ya find it.
Work your fingers to the bone, waddaya get?
Bony fingers.........
Thanks for the reply, Boss.
I fully understand how the in-laws gotta take precedence. We'll find it....sooner or later.
Oh yeah, you just reminded me…………Have a great Xmas everybody!!!!
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Cut off the gas for 12 hours??
have you tried that??
Well no, I haven't done that yet, but it's an idea that I may have to resort to yet. It would offer a way to determine if the gas was leaking into the house from the outside.
Things became a bit more perplexing today. I was back in there late this morning and sealed up the window/piece of inserted aluminum from which the dryer vent emerges and then plugged the vent pipe outlet with a well stuffed towel. This is the most suspicious potential source of underground gas entry from the outside because the meter is about two feet from this window well. The gas odor in the room was immediately and substantially reduced. So much so that I thought I'd found the culprit and was sure I'd be calling NI Gas to come and find their leaking outdoor pipe. So I vented the room very well via the other window in the room, subsequently closed up the room and then left for about an hour. Upon my return, there was obviously a bit more odor than when I left. Evidently, I hadn't found the entirety of the problem. It now seems that there's more than one source. The odor is only maybe 25% of what it was, but some is still present and seems to be strongest right near the boiler. There seemed little point in checking the boiler valve for post-cycle oozing as I couldn't lay my hands on a new one today anyway, so I closed the door to the room and left the window open in there. That'll get them thru what remains of the weekend and I'll look again on Monday. I'll probably check the WH and boiler valves for oozing and if I can't find anything there, I'll shut down everything and do a meter consumption test. This has become a challenge............... and a pain in my behind. Couldn't happen at a more convenient time of year for everyone involved.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Once upon a time, in a rental house of mine, the tenants called me, about a natural gas leak. I went over there 3 or 4 times, checked the gas dryer, the only appliance in the vicinity, with soapy water. What I did, was to pull the gas dryer out, just far enough for me to get behind it , without dissconnecting the gas flex supply line. No bubbles, no leak, one more phone call, the tenants are still smelling gas. More soapy water, no bubbles, so then I light a match, and sure enough, right at the bottom of the hard pipe connection ( about 4 inches off the floor)to flex line there was a small, and I mean small flame, about 1/2 the size of a standing pilot flame. One other thought, do you have adequate combustion air intake for the appliances?? Is Backdrafting a possibility. Be safe out there, Jim J
And sometimes the solution can be way off the scale. We started to get a natural gas smell in our previous house one winter; I'll skip over all the gas company visits; turned out (in the gas company's opinion) to be the new pulse furnace next door running too rich and the wind blowing just the wrong way that our fresh-air intake was picking up enough fumes to be noticeable..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
About 8-10 years ago a leaking undergound pipe blew up a house in Westminster MD at about 2PM in the afternoon, and an adjacent dozen or so were moved off their foundations. No one injured as very few people were at home, but a couple of hours later and it could have been a major disaster. It turns out that a piece of construction equipment had hit a buried line and cracked it, and then heavy rains which saturated the surface had caused the gas to flow into a vacant house until it exploded.
Could the gas be coming from a small propane cylinder in the house? Is there a plug in the chimney which is causing exhaust gases that contain unburnt fuel to return to the basement? Sounds like a good detective story.
I liked the part about the basement drain, as we had an open untrapped drain where a toilet had been removed. I just assumed the 90 yo house had a musty basement, but a plumber pointed it out, I plugged it with an expanding rubber donut, and within 24 hours it was a completely different place.
Pipes have been well checked. For those joints where visibility is poor around the joint, I used a small mirror and a flashlight. No quickie looks, either. I always linger my gaze for bubbles for at least fifteen seconds per joint, as I know that small leaks can be hard to detect and that it can take that long or longer sometimes to form the tiniest little bubble. And yes, I'm using an appropriate approved soap for this job………..no Dawn or any other ammonia bearing detergents that could eat out the joint compound in the future.
Draft is definitely adequate for both the WH and the boiler. This has been checked several times both for the "cold" draft situation as well as while either and/or both are firing simultaneously. Zoom………up, up and away. All the chimney flues have caps on them that are in excellent condition. No critters in there.
The alternate source notion occurred to me the other day and so we checked all over that room for a propane cylinder or the like. Nuthin.
Both the WH and the boiler are hard-piped with no flex hoses involved. I would've been very suspicious of these right off the bat, if there were any present.
At this point, I'd be satisfied to find out someone's consuming too many beers and boiled eggs and then retreating to the utility room to avoid embarrassing themselves.
I was thinkin' yesterday that maybe the gas company should inject a different/additional odorizer in the gas. I'm thinkin' of one that either smells like beefsteaks or perhaps a female dog in heat. Then you could just use/borrow a male dog as a leak detector. Wherever he stands and licks the pipe……………….Hey, they use hogs as detectors for underground truffles, ya know.
Well, it's time to get off of here and call these folks to see how things are this morning.
Thanks for the thoughts everybody.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Wood-
I remember that house and the amazing thing was it had no gas service. The cable tv guys hit the line and the gas followed thier excavation into the house.
Okay, I decided it's time to give you all the post-game wrap up on this business.
Problem resolved with no reoccurence for several days now.
It turned out that all the gas was leaking into the house from outside........upstream from the meter. It's NI GAS's problem now. Time to hold their feet to the fire.
Thanks everybody.......you were of an immense help.......and the homeowner's thank you, too.........heartily. They had the family Christmas dinner at their house after all.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Just think how much everyone learned. I define an expert as someone who has made every possible mistake in a very small field. In the discussion of your problem, a lot of people got to share the little mistakes they had made as well as the successes they had in solving the problem. If I ever encounter a gas leak, i will be much better armed at solving the problem. Ditto with everything from electrial to framing to roofing to footers.
"I define an expert as someone who has
made every possible mistake in a very small field."
That must mean I'm really, really smart cause I think I've made most of them at least twice.
This is exactly why I say..................
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Just a thought but a house I wired had a hard to find leak in the gas line. After many visits by the plumber and the gas company an old timer with the plumbers cut the gas off at the curb and, after clearing the lines with compressed air and disconnecting the regulators, pressurized the system to something to many times the normal pressure of a gas line. Using a glycerin based foaming agent went through hose piece by piece and discovered a small leak. It was quickly fixed and the lines returned to normal.
I guess I am wondering why you are chasing this down, never had a claim on your liability ins and want to get your money's worth?
I am not wondering if you know more about gas than I do, you have already done more than I would know.
Couple of thoughts though. Any chance the washer/dryer aggravate a weak joint? Test by not doing laundry is Flintstone tech. I was thinking a leakdown test would be the next move. Over pressure the lines, but how much pressure? 40-60lbs? That then made me think that you might have excess pressure from the street because there is an acceptable leakdown rate because of low gas pressure.
I love the gas co. Wow, you have a gas leak. They don't sniff one and all of a sudden you don't have a leak. Magic.
Anyone that doesn't think you have a gas leak raise your hand. Talk about something that doesn't pass the smell test. You have to put the cost of testing the lines on the owner, be that homeowner or gas co., and have a pro troubleshoot it. Where to go? Check system pressure. House line leakdown, valves off. Street to house leakdown. Appliance test, one by one.
Well, as a matter of fact, you're correct. I've never had a liability claim in 28 years. Nor do it intend to have one, but then no one ever does.
I've consulted with my buddies in the HVAC biz on this one and I've covered everything they would've so far……..but I'll be testing those appliance valves come the morrow and running an "all appliance off" consumption check on the meter if the valve inspection proves fruitless/gasless.
The reason we're chasing this down is because we've spent the majority of our time (70%?) over the last five years working in this home for these folks and we've become somewhat dependent on one another and very close. Besides, when the gas company says "no leak here", and then summarily take their leave……… where else are they to turn?
These folks are more than just clients……..they're pretty much family to us and we to them. They're great people and we "do" for each other all the time. And……… there's extra perks to the ongoing gig with these folks. Consider once, if you will, how many times Eric has written prescriptions for DW and me that saved an expensive consultation.
Their kids give us a big hug everyday when we arrive and then sit on our laps if they get a chance. The dogs obey us better than their owners.
Then again, I guess I'd take it on for other folks as well, even if they were heretofore strangers to me. When something as potentially dangerous as this is known to me and no one else is available or willing…………..well, what's a fella to do? Maybe this is a fault of mine, but I guess I don't see it as a character flaw. Do unto others……and all that.
Besides………….Carolyn's quite a looker. She bears much resemblance to Brittany Spears. How does any red-blooded boy say "no" to that? :)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I hear that these people mean something to you, I kinda read that from between the lines. But your butt is in the breeze.
If I have anything to add I forgot, but I am worried about this as well. I think to test you will have to go where you shouldn't, that is why I said get a pro in there. If he wants to test with a torch wait outside, ;-).
Granted.............breezy it is, from time to time. So I'll turn my collar up and say my prayers.....hopefully accompanied by the excercise of good sense and foresight.
And yea, tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death........... :-)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Ortmeg,
Okay, here............I'll say it for you.
Discretion is the greater part of valor.
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
Ya know that Goldhiller guy? Poor fella ain't got no brains. His neck just kinda growed up and haired over.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
G, 23 years, no claims; sucker for good clients, and I can understand why you are dragging this one out. ;-)
I was just trying to work out how to get this done before the house blew up. I would kick it up a notch and test high pressure, low pressure tests aren't getting you anywhere. I would bet this is feed or appliance leak, but you have to start somewhere. Crack the system and stop screwing around.
Fools rush in.....
I could smell a gas leak at the connection to the stove. Husband said no way, he did bubble solution, said it was ok. I must be imagining it. One day when he was away, and I was sick of the stink, I pulled the stove out, and used almost pure soap, just a little water. Guess what. It bubbled. I didn't know about using a match to find the leak. :^}
Edited 12/22/2002 11:05:49 PM ET by martagon99
A point well made. The cling-ability of the solution matters big time and how well you saturate the joint. Having had my fill of trying to use dabbers over the years, I finally got wise and now I've got the stuff loaded in a pump bottle so I can easily apply to all areas of all joints, no matter how they're situated. When I did the last bubble check on these pipes the other day, I poured the solution into a small bucket and then wearing a cloth work glove, I dipped in there and just saturated everything. This allowed me to wrap my hand completely around the pipes as I checked them also for leaks.
When the gas company guys showed up with the sniffers, one of them had a bottle of soap in his pocket, too. The guy said it's how they tell just where the leak really is if the sniffer tells them that there is one. Hmmmmmm.
I stopped by the house today and the odor is quite faint in that room now even tho they closed the window this morning to see what the state of things might really be. Tomorrow morning I'm going to shut down the appliances, take a meter reading, go to another job and then check back in an hour or two. We shall see what we shall see. Rest assured, I will find this sucker. I may have to high pressure the lines, but I will find it. This is definitely the toughest one I've run into yet.
Hey........if your nose is that sensitive...maybe you could come over and.......
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Hey........if your nose is that sensitive...maybe you could come over and.......
....Are you kidding? Have you heard how difficult it is to get into the States these days? They even arrested Santa Claus as he was wind-surfing across the Niagara River.