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Discussion Forum

Nail it or Screw it?

CapnJohn | Posted in Construction Techniques on August 11, 2013 11:46am

Nails or screws?  My colleagues argue that nails are better than screws when framing.  I argue screws are better.

They say that shear strength of nails is higher than on a screw.  The data don’t show this, but then there are more factors at play: type of wood, diameter and material of fastener, for instance.

Nails go in quicker.  That seems to be the only redeeming value of nails. 

Nails bend, depending upon material.  If we compare common nails with a hardened steel screw of the same diameter (at the root of the thread), screws win out every time.

Oh, and I don’t nean drywall screws.  They are good for drywall but nothing else.   I spit on carpenters who fasten shelving and the like with drywall screws.

Screws can be unscrewed when we make a mistake.  Screws don’t pull out when the board warps.  Screws provide superior compression.  When two boards are in compression, screws have superior shear.  Screws have superior withdrawl and tensile strength.

So other than speed of installation, how is it they think nails are better?  Is it possible to resolve this debate?

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  1. florida | Aug 11, 2013 05:06pm | #1

    Nails have been holding houses together for hunderds of years. They do so quickly and at very low cost. Is there a rash of houses pulling apart where you live? Screws are great in certain situations but since they aren't generally code approved our likes or dislikes are a non-issue.

  2. User avater
    CapnJohn | Aug 12, 2013 12:13pm | #2

    Religion and History

    Two things that don't seem to go together.

    Yes.  Houses have been built for hundreds of years with nails.  And nails have evolved almost as much as humans.

    My last house, a Victorian built in 1898 was tongue and groove, balloon construction, with few nails.  It held up well.  Our current home, built in 1992 is no where near as well built or strong.

    When renovating, I find 2x4s that have twisted and taken the nails with them.  Apparently they used what was handy--I have found drywall and deck screws in the framing--rather than what was appropriate, so we have 2x4s with every problem there can possibly be.

    If I use nails, which I occassionaly do, they are annular ring and sized appropriately, keeping Code in mind.

    We must remember that Codes are driven by the industry and the corporations that make profits on the industry, not by what is right. 

    Anyway, an interesting debate.

  3. User avater
    BossHog | Aug 12, 2013 06:35pm | #3

    This question has been thrown out there many times before.  Mostly by DIY people who have no experience in the construction industry.

    But - Let's assume for a minute screws are better than nails.

    Nails aren't exactly a problem ni the housing industry. You don't have houses coming apart because of nails.

    Framing with screws would be a lot more expensive. The vast majority of people aren't going to be willing to pay extra for solving a problem that doesn't exist.

    1. User avater
      CapnJohn | Aug 13, 2013 12:21pm | #4

      Are Professionals Really?

      Most building "professionals "are driven primarily by profit.  Nails are fast, ergo nails are good.  Most building professionals don't have to come back 20-years later and repair what they did orginally.

      As a renovation "professional"--I assume I am a professional because I get paid to do repair and renovate residential and commercial structures--I get to see the results of the framer's work 20 or more years later.  I get to see the cracked drywall/plaster.  I get to see a 3/4-inch gap in the middle of kitchen counter backsplash while the ends contact the wall.  I get to see studs that have pulled themselves out of place, twisted and pulled the nails with them, and moved all over the place popping drywall screws and nails.  I get to see just how lazy, incompetent, or uncaring framers were.  And that applies to all trades when driven primarly by profit.

      In quality construction, the benchmark is not how it looks when done.  The benchmark is how it stands the test of time.

      Now having said that, screws will never replace nails in framing new construction because of the speed of installation, but I, and others, such as Mike Holmes, almost always use screws when installed blocking (that was forgotten by the original framer) and building new walls or repairing old walls.

      Screws seem to be the best option for what I do.

      I have been building for 55 years, professionally for 40, and I have never had a call-back on any of my work.

      Now I will admit that I did not start using screws to the extent that I do until I started making furniture and became familiar with the architects Charles and Henry Greene, the legend Gustav Stickley, artists like William Morris, and contractors like Mike Holmes.  I tend to make everything as though it were a piece of furniture.  My trim work frequently has lap joints, mostise and tenon, and visible round head brass screws for support and decoration.

      I do everything better than right and take my time to ensure that it is done not only right, but beautiful and built to last forever.  The Golden Ratio is my friend and used just about every day.  I frequently revisit the Gamble House and other Greene and Greene masterpieces for ideas and guidance.

      Never put anything in your home unless you know it to be useful or believe it to be beautiful.  I make useful beautiful.  Yes, it takes longer, but when I explain the process and the results to customers, they very seldom tell me to make it cheap.  If they do, I leave.

      Anyway, that's how I roll.

      1. florida | Aug 13, 2013 04:59pm | #5

        So what happens when one of your customers complains to the building department about your use of non-code approved fasteners? Apparently you don't pull permits or get inspections.

        1. User avater
          CapnJohn | Aug 14, 2013 05:01pm | #10

          Screws are Okay

          Found an interesting discussion at the International Code Council http://www4.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002062;p=1.

          We must remember that the Codes are the minimum acceptable.  If Code calls for a 4" slab and you pour a 6" slab, you  have not violated Code.

          One contributor states, "There is no problems [sic] using wood screws. Depending upon the wood screw . . . it ca[n] take about the same time if not less then using a nail gun. Often with a nail gun, you'll have to still use the hammer to get it nailed in tight."

          Obviously English is not his strong suit.  But the general concensus is that if the screws meet or exceed the criteria set forth in the Codes, you are okay.  This means that the diameter of the screw, meaning the root diameter, and its physical properties, must meet or exceed those of the same size nail. If we meet that requirement, we have not violated Code.

          I got my answer.

          1. florida | Aug 14, 2013 08:03pm | #11

            No, you got an opinion. Your building departemnt is the only one that can give you an answer.

        2. User avater
          CapnJohn | Aug 15, 2013 10:09am | #17

          What The Code Tells Us

          Just for chuckles I pulled out my copy of the 2012 International Residential Code.  The introduction states, "This comprehensive, stand-alone residential code establishes minimum regulations for  . . . "

          We are charged by the Code to, "adequately protect public health, safety and wellfare"  with provisions that "do not give preferential treatment to particular types or classes of materials, products or methods of construction."

          So the point is, the Codes are the bare minimum, and if we, as professionals, aspire to doing the best we can, we will exceed the bare minimums of the Code and do the best to the best of our abilty with the best materials for the customer.

      2. User avater
        BossHog | Aug 13, 2013 06:44pm | #6

        "Most building "professionals

        "Most building "professionals "are driven primarily by profit."

        That's because most consumers are driven primarilly by price.

  4. redrocket | Aug 13, 2013 07:09pm | #7

    Framing nails versus screws

    My brother and I were discussing how to keep a house frame together during an earthquake or hurricane. We like nails better, galvanized nails. We figure nails will bend and still hold, while screws would break off, since they're harder, and more brittle, like the steel in the 'Titanic". When we put the new roof on Mom's house, we used S---son Strong Ties. That's really where the staying power is, when the house has to 'Fly", such as in an earthquake. Just for the sake of interest, in my thirty-year career as an aircraft structures mechanic, I never saw any aircraft that had screws as structural fasteners. Rivets, yes, bolts, yes, and Hiloks. Screws held the fairings on, but they were called 'bolts' in the parts catalogue, because they did not have pointed ends, were not self-tapping, and were installed into anchored locking nuts. 

    1. User avater
      CapnJohn | Aug 14, 2013 08:55am | #9

      Excellent Comments

      but Simpson does recommend, in some cases, screws to hold some of their fastening system.  and I have to agree about the bending part, and in earthquake zones, we do want the house to float and bend.  The Japanese are way ahead of us in the regard.

  5. User avater
    CapnJohn | Aug 14, 2013 08:52am | #8

    Permits when necessary

    I believe strongly in permits and inspections and gladly submit to inspectcions anytime .  Back in Maryland, the inspector got to know my work and in many instances just looked in the window and signed off.  Never had a problem.  Better than Code passes as easily as Code, the minimum.

    Now having that, Codes are woefully lacking.  The International Residential Code is a big improvement over the old CABO, but it still needs work.

    A good case in point is the use of housewraps, like Tyvek.  We have all read about water penetrating and rotting the wood behind it.

    Another factor is lazy or incompetent inspectors.  If they know the contractor, they don't bother with a thorough inspection and/or let violations slide.

    The house I am currently renovating is a good example.  Plumbers hacked away creating square holes in the 2x12 joists leaving less than10% of the joist remaining.  I rerouted the DWV and reinforced the joist.  They also placed the vent stack too far away from about half of the fixtures and Studor air admittance valves had to added to make the toilet flush right.  Guess the plumber and inspector never heard of air behind water.

    Part of the problem is living in the Midwest.  It takes new practices and concepts a generation to find their way here.  Twenty years ago the Codes were skimpy at best.  Even today, a homeowner can do his own electrical and plumbing. 

    And yes, some homes here literally fall apart.

    And to answer the other question:  My personal experience has been that if you explain to customer the ramifications of Code vs. better than Code, better usually wins out.  Craftsmanship and artistry win out most of the time.  And as I stated before, if the customer wants down and dirty, I refer him to someone else.

    And I am not driven by profit, and my customers are not driven by price.  I am driven by artistry and the beauty of the finished product.

    My sister-in-law recently had a contractor build a $200,000 addition to her 1950s vintage home.  When finished, the hardwood floors were not even or level.  You could see and feel the new addition slope downwards.  When my sister-in-law complained, the contractor stated, and I am not making this up, "Oh.  You should have said something in the beginning.  That would have been an additional charge."

    I know that given the choice, she would have opted for the level and even floor.

    In my mind, it is industry standard to make the floors match especially since it so easy today with all the electronic leveling equipment we have.  That was just poor craftsmanship and caring more for the profit than the finished product.

    The other problem was that whoever was supposed to wipe the walls down after sanding did not do their job and the painting crews spread primer onto top of drywall dust.  All the walls are like 60-grit sandpaper.

    A labourer works with his hands.  A craftsman works with his hands and his brain.  An artist works with his hands, brain, and heart.  Look at the work of the Greene's and the Hall's.  That is artistry at its best, and the customer was willing to pay.

    The question I often ask customers is, "Is price your only concern?

    A recent porch reno is a good example.  Rather than nailing 2x6 PT boards, the customer and I agreed to Eastern Red Cedar installed with Tiger Claw clips.  It turned out to be a beautiful deck that one could walk on barefoot.  Extra expense but damn well worth it.

    Well, enought for now.

    Thanks for the thought provoking ideas, guys.

    1. Jencar | Aug 15, 2013 08:48am | #13

      Your sister in laws addition

      I almost laughed when I read what the contractor said to your SIL except that it is so sad....We're building a small room addition and I had a concrete sub do the foundation.  Since I'm doing the framing I was keeping a pretty close eye on the proceedings. His form guy knocked some stucco off of the corner to see the existing footing and started setting up his string line to match it. I pointed out that the old joists were 2x6 and the new joists would be 2x8 and if he continued the new footing would be 2 inches high, so he adjusted it. I told his boss, and he just said "that's why you're the carpenter"   Then to square it up to the house, he put a framing square against the stucco and had his partner pull the string in line with the square.  I went out and showed them how to pull a 3 4 5 to square up their form.  Sheesh...I should have run them off the job at that point and saved myself some trouble.

      When they were getting ready to pour, I pointed out that one corner of the form was 1" high in 14 ft (the side that will have double doors) and he said "we'll fix it while we're pouring it"  Guess what....they left and that corner is still 1" high.  I will try to fix it by notching the bottom of the joists on that side.  A lot of sleazy people working out there, but the guy who was $1,000 more might not have been any better

      Jen

      1. User avater
        CapnJohn | Aug 15, 2013 09:11am | #14

        Hate To Say It, But . . .

        The government should step in.  To some degree they have, but not enough.  When I passed the test for Maryland Home Improvement Contractor, there was not one single question about building.  All the questions were about taxes, payroll, workmans comp, etc.  the test should include hammering a few nails. And some sort of evaluation of a person's character.

        This is what happens when an industry does self-regulate and the government doesn't give a damn.

        The issue is worse in Indiana.  I've seen some very scary things.  As I've mentioned before, here, houses do litterly fall apart.

        Sorry about your foundation.  At least you are handy enough to fix it.

      2. DanH | Aug 15, 2013 10:06am | #16

        It's bad when a foundation guy doesn't know how to do a 3 4 5.

  6. cussnu2 | Aug 14, 2013 09:40pm | #12

    Why ask the question when you already know the answer?  You really have no question in your mind which one to use so you might as well have said "I frame with screws and here is why"  You are not wanting an answer from anyone just a discussion which is fine but there is no question as far as you are concerned.

    1. User avater
      CapnJohn | Aug 15, 2013 09:15am | #15

      Perhaps

      What I should have stated:  I finally got my answer.  And it was interesting to get the different view points.

      One thing I found telling is that some folks think Code is the bible, that one cannot deviate one iota.  Truth is, you are allowed to make it better than Code.  Mike Holmes has been preaching that for years.

      He also preaches putting the customer first.  We have a moral impertive to do right by people, make their dreams come true, and leave them happy.

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