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Nail lengths: Rules of thumb?

darrel | Posted in General Discussion on June 15, 2007 06:34am

Well, I’ve been all over town looking for some nails to use on a few cedar fence panels. I need to nail 3/4″ cedar pickets to 1.5″ cross bars.

I’ve been to 4 big-box stores, the local lumber yard and 3 hardware stores (including a specialty one). The only options I’ve been able to find that didn’t come in $125 bulk sizes are:

– 1.25″ stainless (ring shank) or
– 2″ double-hot-dipped galvanized.

I’m thinking a 2″ nail would be ideal in terms of holding power and not as likely to split the cross beams. However, I’ll probaly go with the 2.25 nails, as .5″ didn’s seem like much penetration into the cross beam.

Anyways, the reason I’m posting is to ask if there is a rule of thumb for picking out nails? How far should a nail penetrate the ‘holding’ substrate compared to the substrate being held?

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Replies

  1. Geoffrey | Jun 15, 2007 08:58am | #1

    darrel,

     A real rough rule of thumb is you should penetrate the "holding substrate" by twice the thichness of what your holding......in other words for 3/4" pickets you would want to penetrate the rail 1 1/2".    So nail length would be: 1 1/2" plus 3/4"= 2 1/4"

    BUT in your case you would probably come close to poking out the back of the rail so 2"  double hot dipped would be fine. I would even pre-drill both the picket and the rail with a  3/32" bit to prevent splitting. Hold the picket in place and drill through both.

                                             Geoff

    1. alrightythen | Jun 15, 2007 11:19am | #2

      "A real rough rule of thumb is you should penetrate the "holding substrate" by twice the thichness of what your holding......

      never heard that before, when I nail two studs together together I use 3" nails not 4 1/2".

      I do realize that you said "real rough" and also application is different.

      I think you gave him good advice. cept I sure wouldn't want do all that predilling.

         View Image                                          View Image    

      Edited 6/15/2007 4:20 am by alrightythen

      Edited 6/15/2007 9:27 am by alrightythen

    2. Framer | Jun 15, 2007 04:51pm | #8

      >> A real rough rule of thumb is you should penetrate the "holding substrate" by twice the thichness of what your holding......in other words for 3/4" pickets you would want to penetrate the rail 1 1/2". So nail length would be: 1 1/2" plus 3/4"= 2 1/4" <<Geoff,What rule do you use for framing when nailing 2-2x10's together for example?Joe Carola

      1. rasconc | Jun 15, 2007 07:17pm | #9

        Not Geoff but I agree with him.  Obviously framing is one of the exceptions.  Go ahead and use those 4 1/2' and clinch them over (;-) toss out your prybars but hang on to the sawsall.

        I used to have some engineering link that went into fastners that said the same thing.  (not an engineer).

        http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infnai.html

        If I were doing what the OP asked about I would use the Paslode with the hotdip ringshanks,

        http://www.paslode.com/products/fasteners_catalog/hot-dipped.html

        1. Framer | Jun 15, 2007 08:46pm | #11

          The biggest framing nail that I use is a 10d. I used 12d framing in Cape Cod for face-nailing studs.Joe Carola

      2. Geoffrey | Jun 17, 2007 04:54am | #13

         

        <<What rule do you use for framing when nailing 2-2x10's together for example?>>

        Joe, not trying to be a smart azz, but...the rule of common sense.

        I'm sure you remember when 16d's were nailed straight through 2- 2x's being nailed together, then people got smart and started using 12d (and they were more commonly avaiable) but installed at a toe-nail angle....now 10d straight through is common, no pun intended.

        The use of the "real rough rule of thumb" needs to be applied with common sense as well, since obviously you don't want, or need, a nail protruding through the fastened members in your question.

        Practices that were common in prior times have changed, some for the better, some not, applying a "rule of thumb" in any instance requires a little knowledge and a lot of common sense, and even a willingness to know when to ask for help. 

                                                                                                              Geoff  

        1. Framer | Jun 17, 2007 07:26am | #16

          >> I'm sure you remember when 16d's were nailed straight through 2- 2x's being nailed together, then people got smart and started using 12d (and they were more commonly avaiable) but installed at a toe-nail angle....now 10d straight through is common, no pun intended. <<I never used 16d nails before. I did use 12d nails when I framed in Cape Cod. What I was getting was that we use 10d nails for all framing and nothing bigger and it's code. We use 8d nails for toe-nailing studs. What is your code for framing?Joe Carola

      3. alrightythen | Jun 17, 2007 05:59am | #14

        Framer, I covered that in post 3 of this thread. we thinking the same thing

        I do the same thing sometimes - read the post and respond without reading the others.

           View Image                                          View Image    

        Edited 6/16/2007 11:27 pm by alrightythen

        1. Framer | Jun 17, 2007 07:21am | #15

          This time I did read your post but Goeff didn't respond to you so I posted basically the same question.Many times I don't read all the posts because there are to many to read.Joe Carola

          1. alrightythen | Jun 17, 2007 09:36am | #17

            "Many times I don't read all the posts because there are to many to read."

            I jump in late sometimes too, long after the thread has completely changed topics  lol   View Image                                          View Image    

      4. DanH | Jun 17, 2007 03:15pm | #19

        16d nails and clinch the ends.
        So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

        1. Framer | Jun 17, 2007 04:49pm | #20

          >>16d nails and clinch the ends. <<Every single nail that you shoot into when nailing 2-2x's together you do that too? Can't you shoot the nail on an angle? A 16d is 3-1/2". Is the width of the nail the reason for using a 16d, because it doesn't make sense to have to use a 16d nail when 1/2" of it sticks out the other end of 2-2x's and then you have to bend them over. If you use a 10d 3" nail, you don't have to bend anything over. I just don't see the reason even if it's code to use a 3-1/2" nail that's sticks out 1/2" bigger than the two boards your nailing together.Joe Carola

          1. DanH | Jun 17, 2007 05:17pm | #21

            It's just that I tend to overbuild (also don't have a gun), and I'm told that clinching doubles the pull-out resistance.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          2. Framer | Jun 17, 2007 06:07pm | #22

            >> It's just that I tend to overbuild (also don't have a gun), and I'm told that clinching doubles the pull-out resistance. <<Nothing wrong with overbuilding. I just don't agree with whoever told you about using nails so that they stick out 1/2" past the 2 pieces of lumber your nailing together is for pull-out resistance.Where can a double 2x top plate go, or 2-2x10's for a header go as far as pulling out? If that's the case everyone should be using nails 1/2" bigger than the boards your nailing together and then bending them over.Maybe it';s a regional thing.Joe Carola

          3. DanH | Jun 17, 2007 06:17pm | #23

            In my case it's mostly that it costs nothing but a few seconds of time. And on a double 2x it does produce a more tightly bound beam, as clinching sort of levers the pieces more tightly together.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          4. Framer | Jun 17, 2007 06:51pm | #24

            Dan,If it works for you, keep doing it.Happy Father's Day!Joe Carola

          5. DanH | Jun 17, 2007 06:58pm | #25

            FD would be happier if my son would drive down from The Cities and mow the lawn. (But I'm not complaining -- he's a great kid.)
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          6. Framer | Jun 17, 2007 07:16pm | #28

            >> (But I'm not complaining -- he's a great kid.) <<That's because he takes after his father........ I always say that the good things my son does comes from me and my wife totally disagrees......;-)Joe Carola

  2. User avater
    Matt | Jun 15, 2007 01:35pm | #3

    Goffery's rule is the one I've always heard.  As the next guy points out, obviously framing is an exception. 

    As far as:

    >> The only options I've been able to find that didn't come in $125 bulk sizes are:

    - 1.25" stainless (ring shank) or
    - 2" double-hot-dipped galvanized.

    I'm thinking a 2" nail would be ideal in terms of holding power and not as likely to split the cross beams. However, I'll probaly go with the 2.25 nails, as .5" didn's seem like much penetration into the cross beam. <<

    You kinda lost me there a little... are the larger nails that you found 2" or 2.25"???  None the less, obviously the 1.25" nails aren't long enough.  The professional fencing subs I hire use 2" nails for that application, particularly since the fence boards often aren't a full 3/4" thick.  If you use 2.25" nails you may find that you need to drive them at an angle.

    And around here it is a bit hard to find 2" nails.  2 3/8" are very common but the 2" you have to look for.

    1. darrel | Jun 15, 2007 03:33pm | #5

      yea, I was typing late at night. 2.25 is what I have and they definitely seem to long. You are right...2" nails? They must be some sort of mythical fastener that only exists in science fiction, as I can't find them anywhere.So, ultimately, it looks like screws make the most sense. I was hoping I wouldn't have to use screws as that just makes for a lot more drilling, plus I now have to hide the screw heads a bit better. Oh well.

      1. Geoffrey | Jun 15, 2007 04:31pm | #6

        darrel,

         A 2" nail (6d) is a commonly used nail and should be available anywhere in the U.S. I can find them in 1, 5, or 25# boxes at any lumber yard, hardware store or even the big box stores.

                                                                                                                      Geoff

        1. darrel | Jun 15, 2007 07:36pm | #10

          You'd think that. I can't find 2" stainless or hot-dipped anywhere around here, though.

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jun 15, 2007 04:38pm | #7

        Many of the "deck" and structural screws are selfdrilling..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

      3. DonCanDo | Jun 15, 2007 08:57pm | #12

        Stainless steel screws are available with pre-painted heads.  One brand that comes to mind is Headcote.

  3. User avater
    Sphere | Jun 15, 2007 02:05pm | #4

    2" SS screws. Mo betta.

     

  4. DanH | Jun 17, 2007 03:12pm | #18

    Lots of factors involved. Eg, with the fence, the rails rarely lay tight against the posts (at least not for very long), so you need to allow another 1/4" or so there.

    I think most folks just go with what "feels right". For thin materials a fastener that's 3x the first layer thickness (2x penetration) is about right, but you start dialing back at an inch or so penetration. For drywall using too long a fastener can lead to nail pops, oddly, so staying close to an inch is important.

    Hard to believe that you can't buy a wider variety of nails in small quantities. Both HD and Menards here sell most sizes/types in 1# to 5# boxes. Check some of your local HW stores.

    So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
    1. darrel | Jun 17, 2007 07:13pm | #27

      Dan:The issue is that I can find most sizes in steel, aluminum and zinc, but NOT stainless. The HD's around here don't carry stainless at all for some reason. The Menards only seem to carry one box at one size per store if you are lucky. At least with HDs you can assume they all carry the same thing. Menards seem to change inventory from store to store, though.I'm finding it very odd that there's so much ACQ lumber in these places now and so few fasteners for them.I ended up going with ACQ rated pre-colored screws. Took longer, but likely the best option.

  5. wood4rd | Jun 17, 2007 07:01pm | #26

      Paslode has  2" ring shank galvanized nails that I have used on 3/4" fencing and they really hold. If you have a Impulse or air nailer they go up pretty fast and no pre- drilling.  They do set-in a little, so a slight angle works the best so they dont poke through the 2 x 4.

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