Thought I’d add this to the current window installation threads:
Yesterday finished installing 5 big Marvin double hungs. To my horror, I discovered that on 2 of the windows, the bottom (sill) fin had got stuck under the window, jammed between the unit and the rough sill, and was seriously inaccesible. Lots of handwringing and “if onlys” — if only I had checked the fins before my young assistant had shoved the windows into the ROs, etc. Went to bed fretting. Then I realized that on traditional wooden windows attached via the flat casings, there are no fastenings on the bottom at all, and the windows are held to the framing with, say, 15 nails total (5 each for side and head casing). This comforted me somewhat.
The following morning I had a second look. I was able to work the stuck bottom fins out of their grooves, reinstalling them in the proper orientation with the fin flat against the framing, so all is well.
My point: aren’t all of these 2 in. roofing nails in the fins overkill? What force are they reesisting? Why so many fasteners? Do windows ever fall out of walls because of improper nailing schedules? I put a nail in every other hole, like they say, but not sure why we need to do this.
Replies
Yes it's overkill.
Whoever decided that it takes fifteen nails to hold a flimsy piece of plastic that is inserted in a tiny groove obviously doesn't understand physics and has never demolished anything.
Those fins are worthless. They don't keep water out, they won't hold a window in and all they do is give a false sense of security.
depending on your goal, it's not really overkill.the fins are staying put
Barry E-Remodeler
LOL...I've seen that!
"the fins are staying put"We all need some certainty in this poor worldLOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
3-4 per side.
I think all those prepunched holes are there so if you miss solid with one, there is always another hole nearby.
I don't even use the holes much of th etime. I'm one of those rebels yah know.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
We've had inspectors insist that every hole gets a nail. Absurd.
We've had inspectors insist that every hole gets a nail. Absurd.
They must be smoking something and anyone who puts nails in every hole has got to be smoking something.
Joe Carola
I worked in a location that made you. We had simpson straps instead of anchor bolts. He'd make us put ten nails in the strap LOL! The guy was a nutcase.
I worked in a location that made you.
I would shoot them in with a roofing gun if that was the case.
Joe Carola
I used my stick nailer for tico nails. They sell an attachment for it and the tico's in clips.
I heard of a mason climbing down a scaffold who was going to kill him. He ran and jumped into his car and drove off.
Now I would believe that w/ a Simpson product, that virtually every hole was specifically designed to be used (with rare exceptions), every time. While there is likely a fair amount of design 'slop' to account for wide variations in actual applications, I'd bet that if you read the Simpson instructions for the device, you'll find that it requires every hole to be used.
On Page 2 of 4 on this site;
Sun Windows
http://www.sunwindows.com/Services/Installation_windows_02.html
View Imagei) Finish fastening. Once you have verified that the window is level, square and plumb, and that it operates correctly, finish fastening through the nail fin, applying a nail at least every 12”.
This Fin Nailing may not be true per all manufactures instructions but it is faily typical from my experience.
Google search for window installation instructions;
http://www.google.com/search?q=Window+installation+instructions&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLR
Edited 9/16/2008 9:50 am ET by MrJalapeno
There are exceptions...it depends on the product.
Agreed. They're supposed to wait until they are done.
you need new inspectors .... that ain't their job anyway ... nail per manufacturers' requirements.
I think the holes are there for a reason ... and long for a reason. At least it has been my experience that the nailing simply holds the window stable in a position. The instructions I've seen say not to send the nail home ... allow the window frame some 'breathing room' hence the elongated holes. Nailing through the flange where there isn't a hole may be a mistake and it also may void the window warranty. Also some windows have a label along the top fin .... do not nail the head fin .... they want to avoid the header stress under the potential structural load, I think.
"it also may void the window warranty."Everything voids the warranty. Thats their intent.
It's my understanding that it's not uncommon in some countries to simply pin the window so it's suspended in mid air with 4 screws and simply let spray foam hold it for the most part.
I can't get myself to go that far, but I have quit going overboard on shims and screws if it's possible to get a good foam bond between the opening and window. If there are no nailing flanges (wood windows) I'll use a few pretty good size deck screws as a backup against the window falling out of the opening, but otherwise not worry about it.
If I'm not mistaken some makes don't require the bottom flange to be nailed at all to allow liquid water, if any, to pass through as easy as possible.
Good building!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
For some strange reason, I never use the holes, always nail in between. One nail about every 12" or so. Haven't had one fall out yet.
We staple them with wide flange staples. No, we don't aim for the holes.
Let's all revolt.
Screw the manufacturer and their oppressive instruction for proper installation....
Anarchy Now!!!!!
If a manufacturer puts a flimsy piece of plastic on a 1200 dollar window, does it really matter what they write in their specs?
If you were making the window would it make a difference to you? The manufacturer is hanging his business on the flange ... you think he's going to tell you to do or not do something that he feels will be right?
There has been no shortage of manufacturers who will find a cheaper way to do something, even though they know it is inadequate, insufficient and sometimes silly and dangerous. Flimsy plastic flanges fall into one of those categories. A hefty bead of exterior grade window and siding caulk have more holding power than those flimsy flanges.
I don't think that the nail fins were ever there to hold the window. IMHO they are to ease installation, making it easier to level and plumb the window as well as acting as a stop to prevent the unit from going to far to the interior. ALL windows should be pinned or screwed through the jamb into the framing with shims backing them up. To think that nail fins and casing will hold a window in place is ridiculous. I have seen whole window units sucked out of the opening, on the coast, laying in the driveway.
"It is what it is."
Never considered the wind loading potential for a window. Still say ... nail per the manufacturer and use the holes provided. Don't know that I would ever nail or fasten through the jamb on a vinyl window, though. Again, the manufacturer has designed it to go in a certain way. Not doing that may void all warranties.
There are ways that I have found, for the most part, of screwing through the jamb into the framing and hide the screw. I only do it on the sides though. I also shim up the jamb legs on the units to help with the eventual settling/shrinkage of the jack studs after all of the weight is applied to the building.
"It is what it is."
I use 3 or 4 on each side, i like to use screws in case i messed up or a helper misread the level.
Never had a problem here on the OR coast where we have very high winds
Yeah!
And some manuf say "DO NOT NAIL HEAD" (I always try to avoid nailing my head anyway...) and others say fill every hole...
"I always try to avoid nailing my head anyway."That is always a wise suggestion.There are x-rays around showing what happens when do nail you head..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm with the 3-4 nails per side crowd, and clearly remember one of my first jobs as a high school student, not so good with a hammer yet, where I dinged the Andersen frame and broke the vinyl. Haven't liked the system since.
BUT I can see where it could make sense. If a hurricane blew out a window or door in the house and it was subjected to a sudden blast of wind from the inside, the window would be inclined to push out and the fins might separate from the window frame.
Even though the plastic is flimsy, if it's "overnailed" then it would be abetter ble to resist such a sudden gust of wind.
Not saying I'm going to do it every time, but for coastal or mountainside homes that see some serious weather I would consider it.
Mike, I think I would NOT install a window with plastic fins if I was building in a location where I anticipated wind forces that would blow the windows out. I think I'd choose a product that had a better fastening system. If I couldn't find one, I'd opt for the old fashioned method of nailing through the jambs, which is something I believe should be done on every window!
I toured Marvins facility not too long ago and watched them doing some of their testing on wind pressures, if I were you I would follow their recommendations. Not only will it void your warranty if you dont but if you get lets say a decent tornado or hurricane you will appreciate the nailing. Whoever thought the nailing flanges were for water intrusion I think they need to start reading their installation instructions better, you still need to flash and wrap the windows with a proper 4 to 6" wide tape. Pasted from Marvins install sheet: Complete fastening of the nailing fin around the perimeter of the unit with 2" roofing nails 2" from each corner and spaced every 6"--8".
I did exactly as Marvin specified, mainly because I'm a worry-wart. But, as another poster pointed out, what good are all those nails if the fin is just pressed into a groove? It didn't take a lot of effort on my part to pull the stuck fins out of the groove.Anyhow, I've nailed through the jambs with air nails and will attach casing with real nails. After I flash with official Typar non-asphalt tape, of course.Thanks for all the postings, guys.(Mike Guertin says to screw through the jambs. Maybe I will do that. How about 1/2 in. lag screws? Will that keep the windows in during the next hurricane???)
It won't if you enlarge or rip the holes...... Its easy to pull one flange off at an angle but try pulling on all four straight away from the window. by the way. nice choice on windows, after seeing them built I wouldn't go with another.