Stainless steel ring shank 2 3/8ths x .113 (6 p) ring shank or hot dipped galavanized? same size?
hand split shakes for the roof in one case.
siding shingles in another
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For you - SS nails but why ring shanks? They'll split the wood easier so that the roof doesn't last as long.
Excellence is its own reward!
I would think that 4s would be big enough for siding shingles . or are you planning on the hand splits for the siding?
Frenchy, I use 5d box hot dipped galvis, otherwise called shingle nails for shingles. Never have used staples and never will.
For shakes, the determining factor is the thickness and the exposure, which results in the overall thickness of the nailing. For hand splits with a 3/4 to 1 " butt, you could have 1-1/2" or so of shake to penetrate before your sheathing. I would use a 7d or 8d box, hot dipped as well.
Stainless and ringshank are not necessary. Two nails per shingle/shake and do not set them too tight.
siding shingles? What kinda shingles? Perfections or striated or barn splits etc etc?
For the roof I'd use 8d galvies and I'd never use 4's for any shingles..use "at least" a 6....just be sure to penetrate the sheathing 3/4 of an inch.
Also.....I dont think ring shank would split a hand split but whatta I noe?
Be a shanker (Ravi)
NaMASTE
ANDY
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
frenchy: if we're hand nailing:
... WC (16")... 3 1/2 d HD galv. shingle nail
RC (18") 4d HD galv. box nail
SHAKES ( resawn back) 6d HD box
SHAKES ( hand splits ) 8d HD box.....
for face nail ( under windows and the top course ) we use a small head SS. siding nail.. length as per above
if you are using a gun, switch to the same size in SS, as gun nails do not have a good enough galvanize to stand the conditions.. they'll rust thru before the shingle failsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"WC (16")... 3 1/2 d HD galv. shingle nail"
You got me on this one Mike...a 3-1/2d nail? never heard of it. My 4d trap nails are 1-3/8". But I suppose the 3-1/2D will not penetrate the 1/2" sheathing like a 5d will.
walk good
3 1/2 d HD galv shingle nail has been around a lot longer than me..
i used to buy them in wooden kegs when i started.. most of them were a cut nail..
now they're like a dull point sinker.. about half way between the shank diameter of a box nail and a common...
they're the perfect size for a 16" WC.. but a tad short for an 18" RC...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I talked with another carpenter today. " Yea we used them all the time for aluminum siding.
In some 30 plus years of building including an earlier life in Maine, never come across them. We always used 5d HD box for shingles.
Thanks for the info.walk good
Wow am I confused.!!!!!
I went to the the Cedar shake dealer and he said to use galvinized staples at least 2 inch long..
I spoke with three roofers today. One used staples (galvinized), one used stainless ring shank, and one hand nailed (but admited he had very few customers because he tended to be over priced)....
I spoke to three nail dealers and got an equally mixed answer..
I asked a couple of the contractors I've sold forklifts to and got equally differant answers..
To add to the problem no one I spoke to used the cedar breather that I expected to be standard..
with 55 sq. to do there is no way I'll smash my fingers that many times so a nail gun will be used. If I need to buy another nail gun, whoopeee! (I've only got 4 so I'm obviously in dire need of another)
Edited 5/27/2003 8:33:05 PM ET by frenchy
I think this has come up before,if you check out the cedarshake bureau you will find that the only stainless is recommended be nails or staples.I do believe that you see the black staining when galvinized products are used
My thoughts too but why then are staples such no-no's
Some locations like southern Florida don't allow staples.. never heard of anyone saying anything bad about nails.
I agree that stainless is much less likely to stain then galvanized yet some here swear by them..
I've used thousands of ringshank stainless on the black walnut and white oak used in my house and never noticed any splitting problem. I will say the few times I've had to use ringshanks to nail into the OSB of the SIPs they haven't held particulary well, any better than a normal nail will. (on the other hand don't try to remove a ring shank that's been nailed into white oak!! )
I think the staple issue is more of installed with standard shingles problem, not with cedar,I do believe that it more of a splitting problem, it is how true cedar shakes are made so the smaller the fastner the less the chance for splitting
As for installations in Florida thats a horse of a different color when comes to any roof installation,kinda hard to roof cement down the first three courses of cedar if you what I mean
So you'd advocate staples?
I kinda like that idea too. but..
there certainly are a lot of neh sayers..
My logic is that the narrow gauge of a staple leg is less likely to split a shingle than a thicker nail. and the crown goes across grain so it should afford a decent purchase.
It seems real easy to pull ring shanks from OSB so I doubt they really offer any great advantage.
as for hand nailing, aside from the time issue and smashed fingers...;-( there is the whole issue of consistancy .. if I did it every day for the past three decades perhaps I could be counted on to hit exactly correct each and every time all day long.. Over nailing has to be just as bad as under nailing..
maybe the real reason I want to use staples is because that would allow me another nail gun. (I only have 4 so it's obvious that I'm deprived) ;-)
I have never used staples, but have seen a few jobs that have been used.
My observations... staples appear to result in more potential for splitting as you have four points of fastening rather than two/shingle.
They appear to pull out much easier than HD box and my thought is that over time the shingle movement will accentuate this problem.
Shingles are a meditative activity. hand nail them and watch the world at peacewalk good
meditative activity,
that is good.
have you seen pictures of my house? (in general discussion under, went to see the wacko) 27/12 pitch roof. The peak is something like 50 feet above the driveway. seven dormers and a tower, 55 square to do and this fat (250#) old (55) guy is doing it himself. I do it nights and weekends.. My real job is to sell construction fork lifts..
If all I had to do this summer was shingle the roof well maybe I could take my time.. but I have the rest of the house to build.. (it's a timber frame.
Nail gun it's gonna be.. and if I can find an automated shingle setter I'll own one of those too! (of course then I'd look for a machine nail gun so I could stand back and ratta-tat-tat-tat.....;-)
no staining with a true hot dipped galv.
if it were face nailed, the galv. may produce some staining.. but not on a shingle... now.. if it's not a true hot dipped.. good luck..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Actually, a staple is less likely to split the shingle. Even though there are twice the holes, the holes are much smaller and the chisel tip crushes through the wood unlike a nail. Staples are OK for shingles. Compared to hand nailing, the time saved is profound.
if you want to gun nail them... get the bostich sidewall coil gun.. it's got an adjustable nose so you can set the depth easily.. it shoots everything from an 1 1/4 to a 2 1/2.. you can get SS nails for it.. or galv. Maize nails..
.....N64
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Now you tell me, I just came home with the hitachi stapler on the recommendation of two roofers who finally agreed with each other..
Both were standing there with a Bostich coil nailer in their hands. (OK, they stayed up on the roof with the crews)The one claimed that he always hand nailed hand split shakes because the cusomers who could afford to buy shakes could afford to have them hand nailed (and seemed willing to pay for it) the other said that he rented a Hatachi whenever he had to do a roof of hand splits..
Since three of the nail guns I own are Bostich another Bostich would have made a nice addition to the collection... ;-)
Hmmm
just checked prices and the N64c bostich is $100.00 more expensive, and the stainless steel nails are twice as expensive.. as the hatachi I got..
here's roy running a woven corner with 18" red cedar R&R.. with the N64 and SS 4d ring nails...
we also use hitachi galv. 4d nails in itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Lookin' good.. !
I don't see any cedar breather under that, is that because it's repair work and you don't want to leave a lump or don't you normally use it?
frenchy... we use cedar breather on roofs.. but not on sidewall... our climate doesn't warrant the time & trouble...
we use 15lb. felt under our cedar shiongles on sidewallMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I need to use tyvex to make the building inspector happy. to make me happy I used 30# felt over it, so I don't believe that I'll need to use cedar breather on the walls either..
how do you set the cedar breather? Do you butt it right up to the bottom of the shakes, or set it back a bit so it doesn't show?
set the cedar breather ?... send me your fax number and i'll show you a detail..
the short answer is you need an eave detail, a rake detail , and a ridge detail for the cedar breather to function the way it's designedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey, tell Roy I said nice job lining the courses up, ;-) And I agree staples are pure hell for the next guy. Frenchy should go galv, so they DO rust out.
Thanx for din btw, in case you didn't notice I'm not one to be surrounded by strangers, but everyone was great. I still want to check into the flying indians, what bridge was that again?
matt....ur welcome.... but it was "swinging indians"... and she claimed the Newport
bridgeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
They must have swung at low low tide...
BTW.. i REALLY hate staples.... if you get a job where the previous guy used staples , you're screwed... you can't thief them out.. they strip terrible...
i hate staples... and i've owned sheathing staplers for years.. we just never use them anymoreMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The good lord willin and the crick don't rise I won't need to do this again in my lifetime.. let someone else worry about fixin' stuff.
do you notice any real holding power with ringshanks in OSB? to me they've always pulled out as easily as smooth nails..
In the end that's why I choose staples. four legs instead of just two, or actually 8 legs if you count the next shingle....
You thought the Saphire Blue Massacare was some thing.
Don't make me tell you about the minor little wide crown sheathing stapler incident.
Please tell, I was freakin rolling on the floor over the blue dog. That was without a doubt the funniest thing I ever head.
When that dog hit the paint I think I recall the sound more of a splat, maybe with some Qs, than a splash.
That one of a kind window came all the way from Italy and the care that was taken with it was monumental in its' own right till the ladder decided to leave the room.
Oh but the woman stepping in the paint. I have to stop laughing before I continue typing. You had to see it. When she stepped in the paint she started to slide across the room. Her arms and legs where flaying the air so hard they were a blur. She tried to go 15 directions at once. It actually seemed as though she was succeeding. Her feet came out from under and she almost completes a full back flip. With her toes aimed at the ceiling... Man did she come down hard.
Her husband is kneeling on the floor LHAO, beet red, holding his side with one hand and using the other to keep his face out of the paint. Latter when I went into the kitchen he told to finish his beer because that one kept running out of his nose. Then he started to LHAO again and about falls off the chair. Month latter he's still laughing about. He recanted the story for years.
The dog had a blue tint to it for months and months.
You're killing me.
This is hands down the funniest story I ever heard.
You musta been shttin bricks tho, I would have died, right there.
Went catatonic, speachless, mouth open no doupt.
When the ladders did their thing the AW SH!T musta had 1200 letters in it. A week latter I still had a problem grasping what I saw.
After that every time I saw the husband he would bust out laughing till he choked. Mumble something about the dog and paint and laff all the harder.
You should have seen the way the painter ploped down in that mess and started bawling.
That has to be the funniest story I've heard,, I can imagine it happening without the owners being there. I wonder what kind of helI would have been raised if they weren't responsible and had a decent sense of humor..
was the window ever repaired? did the mess get cleaned up? did joy ever return to mudville?
Frenchy.... Lets change that to Paintville.
The HO didn't seem to care a bit. She emptied the house of every thing that had paint on it and redecorated. I got some nice stuff out of it.
The blue room was painted 15 or 16 times because the blue wasn't "just the right shade".
In fact we took up the new carpet, [245 yards, 3 rooms], and put down clear red oak flooring. In a week that was judged to be "too busy", changed that to random width white oak and then changed that to burl maple and birch laid up in mixed pattern. That was covered with carpet because the floor was too noisey. That carpet was changed because of the blue tint. This all happened in a span of 5/6 months.
All the rooms would get repainted at least a dozen times before shade happiness was achieved. The trim color would change more often than that. I changed the color of the light bulbs on several occasions to show her how the colors would change shades. Her husband would tell me to bill her for another paint job. "With all the BS that my wife puts you through you deserve it".
The flooring outlet and paint people absolutely adored her not to mention Eathan Allen and Benjamin's furiture.
The window was trashed. Bay window with more stained glass and sette (sp?) replaced it. The french doors were changed to beveled glass, latter mirrored, back to beveled and finaly removed.
Hell the roof color was changed 3 or 4 times in 10 years. In and out sky lights. Exterior color changes quartly like clock work.
AW GAWD! The tile changes in the kitchen [1100 sf] and cabinates too. Center island, no island. Move kitchen windows.
Did work for this one woman from '83 to '94. She could write her own thread on tipping. Another thing, an unfed worker was an unhappy worker. She was a surburb cook. I'd go home and couldn't eat supper.
Changes would go to storage and at some latter time show back up at the house.
Wow!
is she looking to adopt any kids? say one about 55 years old?
She passed away.
Around my area theres tons of huge jobs going on on, on over million dollar homes and everyone of em' that's using wood shingle roofs are doing it directly over felt on ply. Blew my mind cause I never thought you could do that.
After reading the cedar bureau site I see that they sell a shingle that's manufactured for that application specifically. My guess is its kinda expensive, but so is cedar breather. I just used a cpl a square of it along with ice dam on an historic museum by me of a small roof I redid. Costs about $100 for 2 sq.
I'll be doing some extensive rip offs and redo's on my own house on the existing and extensive additions in the next few months so this subject has my attention.
By the way, I ripped off about 12 sq feet of wood shake from the walls to reset a window....the nails were hand forged humongo nails and no splits..hardest to rip off of any job I ever ripped so, so much for the theory of splitting shakes.
Also the double window I removed and turned into one window said on the side of it on a faded sticker....get this...."Anderson". Spose someone redid that window a century ago or so.
Staples vs. galvies v.s SS......oh boy!!!!
Be nailed
Namaste
Andy.....PS.....IMERC...ouch
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
shingles on felt on ply.... means the shingles will get wet and stay wet.. no drying from the back... premature failure guaranteed... what could be a thirty year roof will start failing at 10 or 15... lower the pitch, the faster the rot..
shingle breather or skip sheathing or pass...
the big old nails were usually cut nails with no point , so they punch instead of split.
just like dapping a nail if you're nailing near the endMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Now that you mention it.the houses I saw ..the wood shingles "did" actually go directly over the cdx......I smetimes get caught up when I post here within the usual box if ya know what I mean.....like calling a circular saw a Skill saw.
Thanks for the correction....and, the rest of my previous post remains the same unless you catch another flaw........god forbid...lol
Also.....not sure yet but gonna check into the price differences tween skip sheathing like I have on the existing house vs plywood and the type of wood shingle they sell for direct application over ply....I'd so much rather do that. Gonna keep the skip roof as is and deal with the original as a restoration but the extensive new work I'd rather use CDX.
Thanx for the correction.....hey....its Friday and the Corona and shot of JAck (or two) are on me.....or three : ) wheres the designated driver when you need HER!
BE corrected
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
So Mike,
27/12 ptich roof and shingle breather, what would you suggest for exposure on a 24 inch hand split? say 7 inches?
any real extra life if I reduce that exposure?
actually since I'll probably use the same exposure on the dormers and they are only 12/12 pitch wouldn't a 7 inch exposure be about correct?
frenchy... i 've seen a lot of shake roofs.. ( hand splits ). and bid a few.... but i've never installed one..
i believe the spec is still the same:
max. exposure is less than 1/3 ( 8/24 ).. but don't forget every course with hand splits gets a strip of felt over the top third..... i think the strip is whatever dimension the shake is.. so in your case 24.. i'd work with strips about 6' with a side lap of 6"..
maybe a hand split ( shake ) installer will pipe up with some more infoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Now you're gonna make me worry all day untill I hear that story..
Please tell me about the, Minor little wide crown sheathing stapler incident..
Please!
The Saphire Blue HO's nane was Stella. The outside decor was changed about as often as the interior.
Stone work, facades, over head doors, siding, entrance doors, shakes, land scaping, shutters, porches and decks for openers.
Learned early on what taking it apart ment if I had used the M3 wide crown or the SKS narrow crown.
Another toy poodle of hers got in around my ankles while I was using the M3 with 2 1/2" staples. Tripped over the dog, went down and ended up firmly fasting my nail bags to my right hip, lower stomach and my jewels to my inner thigh. Talk about holding power.
Needed a buch of help to get turned loose just so I could go get some medical assistance. Damn near stapled that dog in place. I vividly recall that incident and that was 11 years ago. Every time I look at the stapler sitting on the shelf my blood turns to ice, the knees get weak and the heirlooms hide. Don't use it much anymore.
Ouch!
Ouch!
Ouch!
eeeh!
Staple it frenchy since you're shooting into OSB.
Nails knock chunks out of OSB sometimes [back side] and nail holding power in OSB leaves a lot to be desired.
Well the fact that you guys don't like to remove staples means they don't come out easily. that alone sounds like an endorsement for staples.. I'm building this place to be here for a very long time and the guy who tears it apart will really earn his money!
Bar none staples hold.
frenchy... staples suck...
you can't use them for face nailing.. you can't set them for drive depth witha n adjustable nose..
bring the sucker back before you use it and get a sidewall gun... you'll really like itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The Hitachi has an adjustable depth nose, and I've got other nail guns. Besides if I find I can really use the sidewall gun it's one more for me to buy!!!
But it's too late, I've used it.. nailed up some of those semi wet shingles as starter courses just to see how it felt..
nice and lite like a trim nailer.. fast as snot..