I think I want a direct vent, sealed combustion natural gas heater for my new woodworking shop. It gonna be 16 x 24 with 10 foot ceiling. Pretty good insulation. Gonna partition off a small space for finishing work. Atlanta, GA. I need the heat mostly to moderate temps for glueups and storage of all those finishing materials. Sometimes for me.
Anybody going this route? Locally there’s Empire, who looks like they have 17000 BTU unit I can mount up out of the way. Any advice?
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Replies
MtnBoy.
You are fighting the laws of physics. Heat rises.. cold settles..
A perhaps more efficent approach would be to embed some pex in the floor and using a water heater as your source recycle hot water through the floor.. heat rises so you won't use energy attempting to force it down. the coldest part of your body (your feet) will be nice and comfortable while your head won't be overheated..
Of course if the floor is already in , do whatever you wanted to do in the first place..
I can't go in under the floor. The stuff I'm working on will be up on workbenches. I can mount a heater at the 8 foot side wall level (ceiling actually peaks at 10'; I shouldda said that). Want to not take up much shop space.I'm thinking of moderating it to about 50 degrees all the time; glue will flow at that.
Mtnboy
sounds workable..
Frenchy has a good point but your idea will work. Your heater will have to bring the temp of the air up to 50 above you before it get it to 50 where you are. But the space isn't that big so it shouldn't take long. And it will be on a thermastat so it will only have to maintain the temp.
I do think uunder the floor heat is nice though. And it's one less motor making noise in the space. And the blower will kick up dust when it comes on.
Glad you mentioned the dust. At least it'll make me think more about where I put the heater.Gonna do hydronic infloor radiant in the whole new house. You know, that structure that gets built out in front of my shop and blocks the streetview! But now I'm told I'll regret that in Georgia. That the heat will never dissipate when it warms up during the day and I'll be using the A/C to make the house tolerable.House will be real energy efficient with Icynene everywhere. Slab on grade; all one level. Tile floors throughout. Perfect for the wet radiant heat. Or so I thought. But I digress...
MtnBoy
On your house plans,
Look at using ICF's instead of stick building.. Very energy efficent winter or summer! Extremely easy for a DIY to use.. (Think of building with giant foam leggos')
Don't hesitate to use In floor radiant heat. winter or summer it's the most comfortable heat you can imagine. You learn to use the delay in a positive way, plus you can use gas fireplaces for the short term warm up.
In floor (or under floor) radiant heat is also far easier to install than duct work. It's within a do-it-yourselfers ability while ductwork requires sheetmetal fabrication skills and tools.. the potential cost savings is massive.. NRTRob will help you with all the details and source for materials..
Well, the sad thing is I'm not building it. Still have to earn a living at my day job, so I'm hiring the house built and the shop (hobby shop so far; after retirement, well, we'll see) is a site-assembled Conestoga. I do have time to insulate, wire, and finish it up inside.Down here you really need central A/C, so that's going in with the ductwork. Tied in with an HRV and air filtration. I'm thinking I go with the wet heat anyhow. This'll be my last home, if I'm lucky. If I can afford it all, I figure I'll have durable, flexible systems (can add a furnace to that central system). Well insulated. Paying the money now against who knows where energy costs are going later. I figure at 60, that oughtta just about let me finish up on this planet before I run out of money.
MtnBoy.
I have A/C in my 5500 sq.ft. house.. Instead of going with one large unit I put several small window units right into the walls.. . The advantage is I was able to get a higher efficency rating for a tiny fraction of what a large central A/C unit costs.. Since I'm not so so deeply invested in a single unit I can replace individual units as more efficent ones become available. In addition since I have really efficent walls I can cool only the areas I'm in or going into without cooling bedrooms etc.. that are a waste of energy..
I realize that where I am has little bearing on your energy needs but I used to spend over $100 a month with A/C in the old stick built house of half the currant size.. Now I spend $10-15 a cooling season because the increased efficency of this insulation over the old stick framed house of 1/2 the size (which by the way was extremely well insulated before the tear down)..
When my neighbors homes are 80 degrees inside of them mine remains at 70 or lower.. I don't turn on the A/C untill temps are well into the 90's not because I'm tough or whatever but because I'm comfortable because of superior insulation.
Here's the simple reason.. Wood makes a poor insulator.. instead of an R 19 wall you have no insulation in the area where the studs are, since they are doubled up and sometimes more in a lot of area the usual way to rate insulation is with an 80% factor.. a wall that has R19 is actually only about R15. A R13 wall is actually about R10 average.
While a ICF wall can easily be rated at R 30.
Top those walls with a SIP of R50 free of studs or wood to transfer heat and you are looking at energy costs a small fraction of what a stick framed home will be..
I understand any reluctance you have to look at ICF's or SIP's However SIP's have been around since WW2 they were just called freezer panels.. Used around freezers and coolers because they are efficent at keeping things cool..
ICF's have a newer history. I've known about them for about 20 years now but I'm sure they were available before that..
Both are fully tested and meet all codes..
ICF's for example have a 2 hour fire rating and capable of withstanding 200 MPH wind speeds.. (something no stick built house is capable of doing)..
In addition ICF's don't offer termits anything edible.. and since most have borate in them it's not something they will go chomping on just for giggles.. Saving you from the cost of termite treatment is just one little bonus..
If we could expect future energy costs to remain stagnant Why bother,, the differance between ok insulation and great insulation won't be that large. (not in the overall scheme of things) However I don't expect costs to remain steady, do you?
For information the premium for ICF homes over stick built homes used to be as little as 2% however, the currant market slump in housing is forcing contractors to eliminate the premium and sell for the same price as an identical stick framed house..
I don't know market conditions in your area but if you haven't committed I'd at least look at the option.. The sad thing is just like a stick framer you have you find the right ICF builder.. Some are still asking a premium even though they aren't getting the work..
Do you have any research comparing ICF's with a house using Icynene under the roof sheathing, in the walls, with Advanced Framing, which gets excess studs out of the way? Or is that something I'll find over in the Green building area?Guess you really have to compare same foundation, windows, mech. systems, too.I might not have to run the central AC except in the hottest of weather--which gets pretty miserable down here. Rest of the time my 4 Mr. Slim mini-splits are gonna be used. Love them.
MtnBoy.
I'm the wrong person to ask for internet information.. I rely on Magazines like Fine Home Building etc.. for my information. That and manufactures when I compare which brand to use.. I don't do much research on the web..
Hopefully someone else will pop up here and help you..
By the way you start at the basement with ICF's . First you pour the required footings and then set up the ICF's once you are out of the ground you can use thinner walls than you use in the basement..
I put an Empire direct vent in a year round rental cottage here in Maine a about ten years ago.
Cottage is 16 x 32 and poorly insulated 34000btu unit, I think, and keeps the place cozy at zero degrees F. No problems with it at all. The best feature is that it runs without electricity, and my rental is in an area that loses power once or twice a year. The unit does have a small electric circulator fan, but runs well without it.
Have to use bottled propane here because we don't have the natural gas lines in our area. When I put it in it was costing about $400/ yr. to heat. The tenant paid the fuel bill, so I don't have records of the gallons used. The propane pricing here is crazy.
Check with the dealer on the best size unit for your space. I think you'll be happy with the Empire.
Many thanks on that. I will get help sizing it. Good to hear it's reliable.
Take a look at the Rinnai units. I don't know alot about them but I do know of a condo complex up in Vermont that gradually replaced all their Empire units with Rinnai. I've been told they're very easy to service and know they need very little of it. Service that is.
Thanks. Hadn't looked at Rinnai at all. Will do.
You might want to look at infra-red radiant heat tubs. Detroit Radiant is one brand.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Never heard of it, so I'll educate myself. Thanks for the tip.