My neighborhood has been hit by a few big hailstorms recently and many people are filing insurance claims. Today I called my insurance to get the process started. Just by chance a guy a few houses down was having a roofing company inspect his roof and give an estimate. I talked to the roofing company guy to see if he could inspect my roof also, he was unable squeeze me in today. This roofing company offers GAF-ELK and Certain-teed shingles. Is GAF shingles a good product? He really stressed their “master elite roofing contractor” certification from GAF and how not many roofing companies recieve it. They give a 5 yrs labor warranty I assumed was for GAF shingle installs. I don’t know how important this is or if it just makes for a good sounding sales pitch. He left me a folder packet with info about the company, references, certifications, the 5 yr labor warranty, the contract paper, etc. They have an A+ better business bureau rating. He also said they will take care of all the insurance stuff, when I was looking on the Better business bureau site they say to beware of roofing companines that do this. What’s your guys thoughts???? What sort of things are key to look for when selecting a roofing company??? What shingle manufactures make a good product, what ones to avoid??? How many roofing company estimates should I get???
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Sorry about your roof. Malarkey makes an excellent impact resistant shingle, but I'm not sure how far from the PNW they supply. You might want to try the advanced search function as there have been quite a few threads on favorite shingle brands and hail.
I'm afraid I don't know anything about GAF except that they give their preferred contractors the hyperbolic title of "master elite roofing contractor" then I'm going to start calling myself a wizard to compete.
Malarkey, huh? It's the guy's first day on BT and you're tryin' to hand him Malarkey? Now that's what I call a proper introduction to this forum. Well done, lad!
Strange choice isn't it? I can only think guess they thought: If we put Malarkey all over our shingles and they still sell, we're doing something right.
Not to hijack the thread, but did you get things sorted out with your neighbor over the trees?
Not to hijack the thread, but did you get things sorted out with your neighbor over the trees?
Hey, who stays on topic here?
I asked him to speak with his HO insurance company and file a claim, which he did. I recently heard from the company, asking for an estimate of the damage. I replied that I'd get back to them.
So I have the claim number and an Email from the company's rep. That's what I wanted before hiring a forester to do a survey of the trees and the property for me.
Sounds good. Hope things keep going smoothly.
You are actually in a very good position. Your insurance company is essentially going to buy you a new roof and you will be putting very little of your own money into the deal. That's a win win proposition for you.
Your job at this point is to interview enough contractors and choose the one that YOU feel most comfortable with. You might need to talk to five contractors or maybe just one or two.
Don't dismiss the Master Elite Roofing Contractor certification as being just a marketing ploy. Go find out how easy (or difficult) it is to earn that title on the GAF website. It stands to reason that someone that has worked hard enough in the industry to become a Master Elite is probably going to have more experience than a new guy that has only read half of the wrapper on the shingle bundles.
GAF has a section for homeowners on their website that educates them about shingleing practices. I suggest that you read that, then interview a few contractors. With a little advanced knowledge, you'll be significantly more prepared to judge the contractors that take the time to sit with you as they try to earn your business.
What part of the country are you in?
I'm in the Denver area
I have the insurance field adjustor coming next week for the inspection, should I try and set it up so the roofing company guy is present or would that upset the insurance adjustor and make things work against me? Is there anything I can do to help in my favor?
I heard there were 20k houses damaged by hail in Denver.
If you are satisfied that your contractor is a good one becuase you've done your due dilligence, then you should feel comfortable asking him to meet the adjuster. The adjustors don't get upset at all to meet the contractors. They do what they have to do to inspect and document the damage. They measure and photograph everything. All of their report is scrutinized by someone higher up the chain.
If you run into anything like Seeyou is describing....run! I haven't seen or heard anything like that.
"He also said they will take care of all the insurance stuff, when I was looking on the Better business bureau site they say to beware of roofing companines that do this. What's your guys thoughts???? "
I wouldn't throw the babyout with the bathwater just yet. Be careful not to apply the BBB's advice in the wrong way.
It all depends upon what the contractor means when he says he will "take care of all the insurance stuff". That can mean several different things and maybe it is all good. You'll have to elaborate more about what that means and also explain what the BBB warning is about.
From my perspective: you will file a claim and the insurance company will send out an adjuster. The adjuster will be working for the insurance company. Who will be working for you? If you hire a competent roofing contractor, he will likely meet with the adjuster when he inspects your roof. This will help you in several ways. The roofer will make sure that everything damaged on your roof will be included (scope) and also help to get the roof sized properly. If everyone in on the same page at this point, your net claim will be properly calculated and you'll receive the proper monetary benefit from your insurance company at the earliest possible time, without having to redo this process in a supplemental request. Again, this is a win win for you.
After they meet, you will receive a detailed settlement . Depending on your insurance company, it might be easy to read and understand or you might need help. Your experienced contractor will be able to explain it. Don't be afraid to ask for his help and then also ask your insurance agent to explain it too. Between them, and your own efforts, it will eventually all make sense.
Edited 7/2/2009 7:16 am ET by jimAKAblue
he will "take care of all the insurance stuff".
Storm chaser.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
he will "take care of all the insurance stuff".
Not necessarily. He might be a remodelor that takes care of all the insurance claim damage, such as: windows, siding, roofing etc.
The verbage isn't clear.
In any event, the homeowner has to file the claim and receives the paperwork.
I find it somewhat amusing that anyone would imply that all "stormchasers" are bad contractors. I actually admire some of the largest companies for their ability to mobilize such a large workforce. They are specialists in a very demanding field and I don't really think that every last guy working for a "storm specialist" is a fly by nighter with no roofing experience. The guys I've seen and talked to in the yards have significant assets tied up in their equipment and they've worked every day in the field for decades. They are professionals, like you.
The most important criteria for selecting a storm chaser would be their local office. I would make sure that they will leave behind a local contractor, with a fixed office, to provide any warranty service that may occur. In many cases, the storm chasers have contracted with a local guy and that guy will be paid to do any warranty work. The storm chasers certainly have enough assets to maintain their warranties and in that sense they might be a better choice than the many one man operations, that don't maintain a public office/shop, that often go in and out of business in every locality.
The most important criteria for selecting a storm chaser would be their local office. I would make sure that they will leave behind a local contractor, with a fixed office, to provide any warranty service that may occur. In many cases, the storm chasers have contracted with a local guy and that guy will be paid to do any warranty work. The storm chasers certainly have enough assets to maintain their warranties and in that sense they might be a better choice than the many one man operations, that don't maintain a public office/shop, that often go in and out of business in every locality.
That's the whole problem - they don't here. When they're gone, they're gone. Most of them bought or leased a small local company - I know of one where the owner wanted to retire, but couldn't afford to. He sold to a stormer. Suddenly his company went from one beat up old truck to 20 shiny new 4x4's with monster wheels a variety of out of state plates. I saw 4 of them sitting in front of the FastSigns store getting the names changed on them from what ever company that they bought and abandoned last. They promised big warranties, did crappy work, and then dissappeared when the work dried up.
I'm sure they're not all like that, but most of them working this area were. And a lot of them are cooking the books and paying help under the table. Any job less than $5K, they take the check to the customers bank and cash it. I suspect that job dissappears off the books, and then they pay their help with that cash. Less profit shown, no payroll taxes paid.
But then there's this question: Why hire a storm chaser in the 1st place when there's plenty of local contractors with good histories? It's that Walmart mentality.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
A while back there was a business story about a local company that was specializing in storm work. They had some kind of "systems" setup to handle that kind of work on quick response. And the article was about how they where growing and how many new offices that they where opening around the country.I had not heard of the company. But later when I was looking for a roofer and checking the manufactures websites one of them has this company listed as a perfered contractor. Then I checked their website and saw that they listed a number of offices around the country.Sounds like the type of company that you are talking about.OTOH last fall I got a post card ad from company that was both soliciting jobs from HO's and also for contracters that they could feed jobs to. As a HO the ad did not give me any confidence in the company. Amd their address was an office building about 2 miles from me. And I googled then and did not find much, but apparetely related to a company in LV and the name poped up couple of times in other parts of the country. But apparently only for a year or 2 at one place. And the LV company had a bunch of other related and unrelated companies at the same address. And the strange thing was that the general area has a good hail storm about 6 months earlier. But most of that work was done.So I am not sure what was going on. But they did not give any confidence in the company.Also in the last 6 months I have been hearing a lot more adds by general remodeling contractors are advertising that they will work wikth the insurance company on roof jobs.
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William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Jim, you may want to be careful about this
From my perspective: you will file a claim and the insurance company will send out an adjuster. The adjuster will be working for the insurance company. Who will be working for you? If you hire a competent roofing contractor, he will likely meet with the adjuster when he inspects your roof.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In Texas you have to be a licensed private adjuster to negotiate a claim for him.
In another forum I visit, there is a co that has discussed this.
The last thing a customer wants is a storm chaser.
On a large storm, a lot of the adjusters will be independent contractors. The more damage, the more they make. A lot of these work for Pilot, who subs from Allstate and State Farm. They also work Citizens, the Florida Insurer of Last Resort.
a lot of the adjusters will be independent contractors.
And will be in the back pocket of the storm chasers. They hand out cards and get a nice cash kickback if the sale closes. Saw lots of roofs get condemned by independents that had absolutely no hail damage.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The adjusters I know will do nothing like that. One is in your area since march. One of them will not recomend anyone, any brand shingles or nothing. That is a conflict of interest.
That is a conflict of interest.
I know. How many roofs do you think one adjuster can look at in a day? 8-10 maybe? $300 cash per roof times 8 = $2400/day.
I'm not saying all independent adjusters are dirty. But some are.
A buddy of mine wanted me to do his re-roof when he got a full replacement payout on a 25 year old 20 year roof that didn't show any hail damage. It was just worn out. The problem was that the adjuster measured it at 13.23 sq. It was a little over 17 sq and there was 3 layers of tear/off disposal.
I submitted a proposal to deal with what really existed rather than what the adjuster had submitted. The adjuster suggested I was a scam artist (I've been friends with the owner for 30+ years and have done numerous projects for him) and gave the owner 3 business cards (all storm chasers) and said "these companies will do it for my submitted price and knock off the deductible ($500) to boot".
I had several other customers show me stormchaser business cards and ask me if I knew anything about these companies. They said the insurance guy that looked at the roof gave the cards to them. The cards had colored (Sharpie I'd guess) marks on the back. One customer's cards all had black slashes on the back and one's had red. Both had a collection of the same three companies' cards.
Draw your own conclusions. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I've done storm-related roofing, the storm chasers cut me $30 a square, didn't 6 nail didn't plastic the eaves, didn't plastic the penetrations or do any of the code related stuff.
We did 10-12 claims a day. Drove about 2-300 miles. Minimum payment for a claim $250, about 2% is the adjusters pay.
What do you mean that you "I've done storm-related roofing, the storm chasers cut me $30 a square, didn't 6 nail didn't plastic the eaves, didn't plastic the penetrations or do any of the code related stuff"?
Were you the roofer, the adjuster or the homeowner?
What does plastic the eaves and penetrations mean?
Six nails isnt required here. Are they required in your locality?
I was the roofer. Getting $100 after Ivan. Chasers show up, price goes to $70. I'm in Pensacola, FL.
6 nails is required, along with plastic cement (bull, they call it here) on the eaves under the starter. All penetrations bulled also. 3-tabs must have each tab bulled to the starter.
Okay, thanks for that explanation Catfish.
I would think that it would be easy to document the difference in application techniques to homeowners and thus, easily overcome that price differential in the labor rate. I suppose this would be a moot point if you are selling your services to a roofing contractor instead of directly to the homeowner though.
By the time these homeowners realize that, the chasers are gone. I still get that $100 a square from people that know me. The homeowners know nothing about installation, or are told they are getting the same job and the subs have no idea.
I don't have a FL roofing license, I disclose that at the beginning, and they can use me or not. Roofs are also permitted here, with an in-progress inspection. Most chaser roofs are not permitted. Citizens insurance, Florida Insurer of Last Resort, is now requiring the license # of the roofer, along with other paper.
Edited 7/4/2009 12:12 pm ET by catfish
It's obvious that that particular adjuster is dirty. Maybe someone needs to file a complaint?
I'm curious about why that roof was undersized. My theory is that the dirty adjuster knew that a small roof like that would not trigger a re-inspection. He might have purposely undersized it. When his buddies started stripping the roof, they might have taken pictures documenting the three layers so they could get paid for that. Then, it's a simple matter for the re-inspector to verify that it is seventeen squares. So, in the end, the scammers get full pay for a roof that shouldn't have been bought.
Over the years I had 2 claims. One for water pipe break. Fairly small.And the second for a minor fire in the garage. IIRC about $5000 at the end. Only about $500-1000 direct damage, mostly to contents. The reset was smoke and clean up and the contractor milking the job.In both cases the insurance company sent independent adjusters. And the adjusters had a contractor with them. On the water job I got a check made out to me and this contractor. And I never had add any kind of agreement with this guy. And then he was no where to be found.I had to get the check re-issued to me.On the fire the adjuster used the contractor to figure the loss. All I saw where units of work. And some of the work was not needed. And the insuracne company called me and asked me about some of the items. I said I don't know what those are either. Ask the adjuster that you hired.Several years later I met the same contractor in a social setting and found out that he really did not know that much and just had some part time and subs that he picked up to do the work. And they didn't either. I had to explain to them how to reinstall the central vac in the garage and a couple of things like that.Fortunately there was no structural damage or it could have ended up a real mess.Any way I have learned a lot since them.
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William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
i was just looking through the phonebook at roofing advertisments, and saw a certified master elite roofer with a picture of himself or someone in his company laying a GAF Timberline roof with 6" offsets every other course straight up the roof.
He must not have read the instructions.
""
a lot of the adjusters will be independent contractors.
And will be in the back pocket of the storm chasers. They hand out cards and get a nice cash kickback if the sale closes. Saw lots of roofs get condemned by independents that had absolutely no hail damage."
I haven't met, nor heard of, anything like that going on. Of course, I haven't been around this biz that long and if it's there, I just haven't been close to it. None of the independents that I've met mentioned anything like that. In fact, most of them seemed rather protective of their work. They were careful to get everything properly documented. Some spent a considerable time marking and photographing everything.
Most will be independents brought in from other areas. The "outsiders" actually feel pressure to more thoroughly scrutinize and document the damage. They have a higher percentage of their work re-inspected. The "staff" adjusters can get away with much looser appraisals due to the "good old boy" syndrome.
He really stressed their "master elite roofing contractor" certification from GAF and how not many roofing companies recieve it.
Here's the problem with those "certifications". Undoubtedly, some one at that company is "certified". Is everyone installing the shingles certified? Not likely. Will there even be anyone certified at the job site? Maybe. Maybe not.
Almost all brands have a similar program. It typically costs $500 per head and consists of a day long seminar followed by a test. I just got a certification last fall for myself and two of my guys. Paid $500, watched a 15 min video, was asked if there were any questions. Total elapsed time: 45 mins.
Given the choice between an experienced roofer and an inexperienced guy with a certification, I'd take the former. I'm not saying the certifications are a bad thing, they're just not the only thing. References are much more important.
Shingle brands: Most manufacturers have numerous plants around the country. What's good here may not be as good in your area. GAF is the bottom of the barrel here. They are preferred in other parts of the country. They typically don't seal as well as other brands. We don't have the hail resistant models available here, so I can't comment on them.
One other thought: If a company is only selling two brands of shingles, there's a reason for that. Beware of storm chasers. They typically have a deal with a manufacturer and will push a certain make/model. I'll provide the homeowner with what ever they want to use. If asked, I'll advise, but I have no agenda to push one brand over another if they have something picked out.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
"Almost all brands have a similar program. It typically costs $500 per head and consists of a day long seminar followed by a test. I just got a certification last fall for myself and two of my guys. Paid $500, watched a 15 min video, was asked if there were any questions. Total elapsed time: 45 mins."
I think you are getting a lot more value from the day long seminar rather than the 15 min video.
The point is that you, as the company owner, is taking initiative to get training for you and your guys. You are taking that aspect of your trade seriously. How many roofers out there don't even do that much? So, while I agree that it is important to check references and other criteria, it also is important to respect the effort at gaining master elite status, if someone has made the effort to achieve it.
Which company offered that exciting 15 minute video as their expert training program. I want to avoid that one....
I just went through this. I looked at about 3 or 4 brands. Some manufactures have 2 (maybe 3) levels of certification. At the higher levels the shingle manufacture actually warrants the installation labor. And the manufacture inspects the job after it is done.But, from what I saw, that is only available on certain lines and I think only some of the high end lines.I got a proposal from one company was certified by one roofer that was certified by on of the major brands, but recommended a different one for my job. And I was looking for "basic" 30 yr arch shingles, but asked about the additional cost for 50 yr and/or high impact.An other company has certification from 2 or 3 brands. It was a bigger company and has an estimator measure the roof and then a salesman came with the proposal. He offered several options. One was about an other 8-10% to get the manufactures job certification. I decided not to use them so did not look into exactly what that covered..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
enrare....i'd take Certainteed any day over GAF
and the shingles will most likely be rated as 30 year.... 50 year..... or Lifetime
it varies mostly with the weight and thickness of the shingle ( some are double laminated too 0
the certification process varies...
we are rated ( or were... and that included alll of our employees )
but to get to the next level the company has to have a certain percentage of employees with ratings
for reference... my roofing sub has been doing it for 40 years and no one in his compay has a certification
i'd be wary of storm chasers.. call a roofing supply house and ask for some referrals of their better roofing companies that work in your area..
maybe you will find that the company you have already talked to is one of their preferred companies also
most supply house do not make referrals for companies they do not trust...
i myself will never refer subs to my customers unless i trust them not to make me appear in a bad light
Filling in your profile would help (click on your name) and add location, age, etc.
If you are like me, under 70 YO and with a $5K insurance deductible, and less than 7/12 roof slope, it would be an obvious diy job, no need to involve insurance folks and have your rates go up next year<G>
That said, the biggest building mistake I ever made was not spending $4K for a roll of copper when Cu was under $1/# about 12 years ago. Should have re-roofed with Cu then even though did not need it - thought about it when Cu was low, but did not do it. Cu price has recovered from the $1.5 droop 6 months ago, but probably heading back up. Just recovering my roof with Henrys 107 now would be about $1K.
Seriously consider a lifetime material and diy, esp if you are under 70 YO and physically fit and somewhat diy capable.
when Cu was under $1/# about 12 years ago.
Art, I think we've discussed this before, but I've been buying copper in bulk for 20+ years and I've never seen the Comex price that low. That must have been some salvage. The Comex is $2.53 today and I'm getting a bulk price of $3.33. A year ago, the Comex was at $4.50 or so and I was paying $5.30. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I liked Elks, prestiques in particular, now that GAF has absorbed them, are there still real Elk shingles available?http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I don't know. Elk had a really small market share here. I rarely used them prior to the buy out, but liked them fine when I did. They were certainly superior to the GAF product here. Haven't touched any of the product since the buy out.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
We recently put 3 Timberline Architectural GAF 30 year roofs on and really liked them. They were tough and sealed down good - very very few defective. The company we get them from stores them inside.
Not to insult you with the obvious but they really have to be put on straight. The window for nailing is narrow.
A couple of ways to evaluate a contractor include
I know where you are coming from, and as a customer I understand they want to know who they are dealing with, but if I had a potential client nosing around my suppliers asking about how promptly I paid my accounts I don't think I'd end up working for them.
It takes some practice and smoothness to pull it off.
Ha ha. That's always been my downfall. I'm anything but slick.