Need advice- H2O supply to shop & house
I am in the planning stages for a shop building on my property, and I have some questions, specifically about some plumbing issues. Where I live in very rural <!—-><!—->Northwest Arkansas <!—->, there are no code compliance requirements (not that I have a problem with complying with code), and because it is very rural, I will be doing the majority of the work myself, probably with the help of some local labor. I’d appreciate any input you have.<!—-><!—-> <!—->
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My house water is supplied via gravity from a spring up the hill to a storage tank, and although the pressure is okay, we want to boost it. Since the shop building I’m planning is right between the house and the main storage tank, my idea is to re-route the water supply line (1-1/4†black poly pipe) up into the shop building, filter, boost pressure, then out and to the house. I intend to keep the water utility room in the shop very compact so that in the winter time I will be able to keep the temperature above freezing with minimal energy expenditure. I have a variety of questions, so jump in wherever you like.<!—-><!—->
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1. The utility room will be on the perimeter of the building on the uphill side, so I could run the In and Out lines through the wall instead of through the slab. Being in <!—-><!—->Arkansas<!—-> <!—->, we don’t have real severe winters most of the time and I’m pretty sure that I could insulate the lines well enough to prevent freezing. Any thoughts on the advisability of doing this? <!—-> <!—->
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2. If that’s not a good idea, any suggestions for pipe material to go through the slab and connect to the poly pipe? Copper? Schedule 80? CPVC? Poly? Something else?<!—-><!—->
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3. Since the shop building is going to be sited pretty close up next to the hillside where the storage tank sits, and since we get a fairly considerable amount of water coming off the side of that hill sometimes, there’s a good chance I’ll probably put a curtain drain on that side to direct runoff around the ends of the building. Any thoughts on the advisability of putting the “Out†supply line to the house in the bottom of a trench and the curtain drain above it? It would save one more trench…
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Thanks in advance. <!—-><!—->
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Bob<!—-> <!—->
Replies
copper and concrete does not mix, it will create a chemical imbalance that will eat the copper, all copper that goes through the concrete must be protected in a pvc slieve that can be bought at a plumbing supply house. its either blue or red
Switch from the poly to PEX. Sleave it through the concrete or not , it will be ok either way. It won't burst if it does freeze but may blow a fitting, so keep them in accessable areas. Ok to run PEX under the curtin drian. Just bed it in sand and add a layer of filter fabric over it to keep crushed stone around the curtin drain off of it.
It's never a good idea to have water lines outdoors if there is any chance at all of freezing. Insulation only delays heat transfer, it does not stop it. You could have a cold snap when you are away for Christmas, for instance, or have an ice storm that knocks out power, stopping your flow and any heat trace you may have. It's not wise to depend on luck when you can be more secure with the lines inside.
You can run the poly several feet into the room and make your connection to another material there. That way, you won't have any buried fittings where a leak would be undetectable.
Why not just cast a hole in your slab, say a foot in diameter, and run your inlet and outlet right up through the hole in the floor? You can fill the hole with pea gravel. That way the hole can act as a drain if you have to drain the system for any work or if you have some condensation or drips, and you will have some room to work if you ever had to do anything to the lines.
...we don’t have real severe winters most of the time and I’m pretty sure that I could insulate the lines well enough to prevent freezing. Any thoughts on the advisability of doing this?
Not advisable if you get temps lower than about -5ºC on anything like a regular basis. As has been pointed out, insulation doesn't create heat or stop heat loss; it only slows heat loss. If you do get that cold, you'll need a hot-wire inside the 100# water line (that's your 1¼" black poly). Check out Pyrotenax systems.
... any suggestions for pipe material to go through the slab and connect to the poly pipe? Copper? Schedule 80? CPVC? Poly? Something else?
Before you cast the slab, place a run of 4" sched. 80 ABS in the ground and up through where your slab will be poured. Bring it up at least a foot above slab level; you'll trim it off after the concrete is cured. Do not use 90º elbows anywhere in the run; the sharpest bend you should have in this run of pipe is 22.5º, because once your slab is poured, you're going to manhandle that 1¼" black poly pipe through the 4" ABS. (100# poly pipe bends, yes, but it doesn't like being forced around sharp bends.)
This set-up enables you to change out the supply pipe if (when) it blows out at some date in the sweet by-and-by...without needing to bust up the concrete slab.
Underground supply pipe to the house in the drain trench? I don't see why not, but use a 1" (90#) or ¾" (75#) black poly until you get into the house itself. That stuff is designed to be buried and will likely outlast anything except lead (which we don't use anymore for obvious reasons). Double-clamp both sides of every joint (make as few joints as possible, of course) and use only stainless steel hose clamps.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Thanks, I like the idea of the 4" ABS conduit for the black poly. After the poly is pulled up through the ABS, then what about the void between the two - fill with pea gravel? Don't want to leave a convenient entry for potential underground critter infiltration.
Also, the 1-1/4" black poly is what goes to the house now, there's no reason to replace this with smaller is there? It connects to 1" semi-rigid copper (sleeved) that penetrates the house slab and up to my main shut-off valve.
And yes, all connection fittings are double clamped with SS.
Thanks again.
Bob
By the way, some hose clamps have stainless bands but plated screws. You'd be better off being sure to choose all stainless clamps.
A large diameter PVC electrical conduit might do the trick and the prebent 90's might be smoother and easier to push your tubing through and will only require one piece.
Sorry, friend, but if you had ever handled 1¼" 100# poly pipe, you wouldn't think it could be shoved thru a pre-bent 90º in electrical conduit. Try it sometime as an exercise in frustration.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
After the poly is pulled up through the ABS, then what about the void between the two - fill with pea gravel?
In most applications around here the entry end of the pipe is buried deep enough that critter infiltration isn't a real issue. In your application it wouldn't be a bad idea to shove a few inches of pea gravel in there, then cut a test-cap for the 4" ABS to fit over the poly pipe. For the inside end of the conduit, you can inject a shot of 1-part polyurethane foam.
the 1-1/4" black poly is what goes to the house now, there's no reason to replace this with smaller is there?
No, since you've already got it there; but the smaller pipe costs a bit less and for that reason we wouldn't normally run anything that big from the pump to the distribution manifold in a household system.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....