I got some excellent input on some shower ideas for smslaw, mc design and jim allen in thread number 98935.39. At this point I am baffled by shower valve choices.
I don’t know that I really care about the thermostatically controlled anti scald valves as I have never had one and never missed it. I don’t especially like the huge cover plate/escutcheon that goes behind single handle valves.
I am tempted to just get the old school price pfister three handle valve assy with a diverter to run to a regular shower head as well as to a lower shower head for the kids.
I tend to gravitate towards a turn of the century look with the porcelain handles or nickel handles in a similar shape to the porcelain ones.
I don’t much care what it includes as a shower head as if I don’t like it I can easily replace it.
The shower will be 48″ square with no curb, no door and granite slab walls. Granite slabs are my trade so I am more challenged than put off by any extra work that one type of valve/plumbing might require vs another.
I am using a takagi tk2 tankless water heater to supply it.
Can anyone offer some suggestions on a durable, user friendly shower valve with diverter that is a good value?
Thanks,
Karl
Replies
If you have kids small enough to need a lower shower head you need and anti-scald valve. It is required by code just about everywhere for fixed and hand held shower heads.
With children in the house, not installing one is kind of like saying you never had a smoke or CO detector growing up so you don't need one now.
I would look at Delta faucets, they are relatively inexpensive, reliable, and you can get parts (should you need them) everywhere. With the look and expense of granite on the walls, why put in the cheapest (in many respects) plumbing valves you can buy.
Make sure you install your floor with the proper protection to keep water from wicking out beyond the shower floor.
Woodroe, Thanks for the suggestions. I wasn't too concerned about the anti scald as we keep the tankless heater turned down to a temp that isn't likely to do serious harm. I suppose the heater could malfunction though. It sounds like with the anti scald code changes that the old three handle valves are soon to be extinct.For me granite is about 600 dollars in material and it is the easiest wall surface for me to install. I am not seeking a cheap valve, I just want a durable valve that is a good value without a lot of embellishments. In other words I want to place more emphasis on function than form.Were you saying Delta is cheap or a good value?I ran the trowel on pan liner up to the finish floor outside the curbless areas of the shower. Right now it is a concrete floor in the bath with radiant heat and I haven't decided on a final floor finish. If I go tile I can add to the trowel on liner but I may go with some kind of acid stain finish on the floor as an initial experiment.I was thinking a heated slab would give off any moisture it had splashed on it though I don't thoroughly know the physics of it. Any way if I do go tile on the floor I can add the trowel on membrane at that time.This is a slow moving project.Karl
I refered to it as an anti-scald valve because you did. Perhaps that is what you meant. I meant a pressure balanced valve. Bill aptly described the difference. Pressure balanced valves are required in most areas. As for the Delta I think I said they were relatively inexpensive. That is, they are a good value for the money, or, to make sure I'm clear, you get good stuff and it doesn't cost you too much. That value continues to last 10 years later when you can still get replacement parts. There are plenty of other well made valves out there that fit into that category as well. (American Standard & Moen both make valves that are good values) I would suggest you go to a plumbing supply/showroom and ask some questions. You only see a partial selection at the big box stores, and they are manufactured to meet price points. There is generally much more to most mfgs. offerings accross both ends of the price spectrum than y;o;u see at the big box.
Woodroe, thanks for the follow up. At this point the recommendations are for Delta, Moen and Danze. I am still undecided as to the critical importance of the pressure balanced valve if I have 110 degree water coming out of the tankless heater. It is replacing an existing shower that didn't have pressure balancing valves and there is no official inspection of the replacement to ensure it meets current code.Bill did correctly guess that all the piping is new copper and pressure drop should be minimal as the toilet and washing machine have a seperate run of pipe. My wife requested the house have a "whole house" filter so I ran an unfiltered line to the two toilets and the cold supply for washing machine to reduce the frequency of filter changes.It sounds like as long as I am willing to spend $150 or more for an established brand I can't really go wrong.thanks to all for the input,Karl
in some areas code requires the anti-scald ...
and with kids it's a good idea.
Moen Monticello with the porcelin handle might work.
might have to get the porcelin handle over the net ... as I think Moen stopped making the porcelin due to cracking ... heard others have stopped or will stop because of the same issues.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks for the tips.If code may require anti scald then I guess that decision is made. I will take a look at the Monticello.Didn't realize porcelain had cracking issues. Good to know ahead of time.karl
"I don't know that I really care about the thermostatically controlled anti scald valves "
The common valves are not thermostatically controlled.
And they ain't anti scald either. They are anti sudden drop in cold water flow. It is called pressure balanced. It senses the pressure on the cold water side and if it drops then it restricts the hot water flow a like amount. Now this might have been usefull on an old house with old 1/2 GI pipe that is full of corrosion.
But most of the time with with the new faucet you get a whole bath update and get new piping. And the cold water pressure does not drop when some one flushes a toilet.
The only thing that controls the tempature is that there is a stop that controls how far to the hot side that you can turn the handle.
That really does not limit the tempature.
And there is no separate volumne control on them. You go from off to cold to warm to hot. But once you get past off it is constand cold. And if you want to shut off the water while you soap up then you need to go through cold.
I think that they are a dumb design and try to solve a problem that no longer exists.
You can get better ones that have separate temapture and flow constrols. And even more expensive ones that do have thermostatic control on them.
But you can also get classic 3 handle shower/tub controlls with pressure balance.
http://www.efaucets.com/detail.asp?Product_Id=D500255
You are probably going to need to go to a show room with catalog and flip through them. Many of the manufactures sites list them by Style and Collection and not by features.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
What Bill said plus your statement about keeping the hot water temperature low is the answer to accidental scalding, in my experience.
I installed a modern Delta valve in the shower I now use daily. I don't remember exactly how I set the anti-scald thing but I basically eliminated it from interrupting anything.
I like your idea of using an old hot&cold system but I'd imagine you'd be happier with a third valve instead of a simple diverter. Better control.
Ive done about 25 showers in the last 4 to 5 years and when the home owner didn't get something them selves I got them the simmons , simple hasn't changed in many years under 100.00 and works great, round face, easy to install,one control knob and a small handle to switch from shower to spout. and for around 120.00 you get the same simmons fixture with a nicer face plate and handle.
Why ? well they havent changed the insides for years so replacement parts are easy to get not the same with most brands with all the small allen wrenches that you cant find later, this uses screws no adapters etc. just good design and good quality and the price hasen't changed for at least 4 years that I have seen.
Carpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me
If your valve is located on an inside wall, you may want to consider installing it from the back side to allow your granite penetrations to be smaller. Obviously this would require that you can open up the finished wall on that side without too much trouble and hopefully provide an access panel for future access. If an access panel isn't an option and you have to close the wall back up, most houses don't have this feature anyways.
Just make sure that you are able to access the valve from the shower side enough to change the guts out in the future. Different brands have different methods for doing this, some may be more accessible than others in this situation. Also, some valves have stops built into them that may need to be accessed from the shower side - again, look at different models to see.
Normally the tile or shower material is installed after the shower valve, requiring a larger, sloppier hole in the material that later requires a big plate to cover the hole up. I have seen some valves where you could actually leave the big plate off and have enough coverage for any gaps from just the handle itself IF you were able to carefully size the hole and the depth of the shower valve. I suppose if you were good enough and fussed with it enough, you could do this from the shower side, but you've only got one shot to get the holes right if you're talking about a large slab of granite.
Also, if you do decide to use a single handle, make sure that there is a large range of motion when you turn it on. It is very difficult to adjust the temperature in the shower if you only have 1/4 turn to work with.
(Pegasus and Kingston Brass are 2 that I've had the 1/4 turn problem with)
Hope this helps -
Jamie
Edited 1/26/2008 12:58 pm ET by Jamwats
thanks Jamie,
I can access the valve from the other side of the wall so I may just install the slabs first and drill in place for the valve and install it last. With a good template accurate drillings aren't generally a problem but drill in place does sound like a simpler approach when plumbing in the valve last is an option.From everything I have heard so far I don't see any big pluses for the single handle valves. I like the smaller footprint of the escutcheon plates on the classic three handle valve and diverter assemblies.thanks for the ongoing input
Karl
Hi Karl,
I thought of some reasons why I prefer a single handle faucet over the 3 handle - I wasn't sure if you had thought of these:
- Parts for 3 handle faucets may become harder to find down the road as more people switch to the single handle. I just finished a job where I switched out their 3 handle valve to a single handle with one of the reasons being we couldn't find a satin nickel trim kit for their 3 handle. Who knows what it's going to be like in 15 years or so when the wife wants that newest color trim for shower or something breaks. I would think that if you stick with a good name brand and keep your owner's manual, you should be able to find parts somewhere, but they may be hard to locate and expensive.
- I know that you mentioned you have new supply lines isolated to that shower, but there may be some issue that you didn't foresee that causes temperature variations that can be compensated with a pressure balanced single handle (it seems like every one I see in the store has this feature standard now). It sounds like you've got the high temperature issue settled for now by setting your tankless temp to 110, but what happens down the road if you want to raise that temperature or switch to some water heater that can't control it that precisely?
- You know better than me about drilling through granite, but it seems like 2 less holes would be a bonus. Less chance for leaks, too. Also 2 less metal shiny things to keep clean.
- That big plate that comes with a single handle can be eliminated if you install the valve right (right depth and a hole that is bigger than the valve but smaller than the handle).
I like your plan with the curbless shower, granite slab walls, and concrete floor. Should be easy to clean and look good too - love to see some pics at some point.
Jamie
Jamie, That was some good information. I have never installed a single handle faucet so I didn't realize you could use one without the large cover plate. I need to look into that.One of the earlier posts seemed to have some dislike of that inability to regulate flow or temperature as effectively with a single handle valve but again I have never lived with a single handle valve so I am not sure if I would have any complaints.It seems like the path of least resistance at this point is to go with a single handle and I am likely to go with the delta recommended by woodroe or the moen recommended by Jeff Buck unless someone gives a more compelling recommendation.Thanks,
Karl
Karl,
I would second the Delta or Moen recommendation.
As far as being hard to adjust, just avoid the 1/4 turn valves. Too sensitive. Try to feel the range of motion of the displays in the stores. Look for one that's smooth and easily rotated.
I actually think that it's easier to adjust a rotating single handle because there's only one thing you control - the temp. With the low flow shower heads these days, who takes a shower at anything but full on pressure?
Now, I have seen some that work like a kitchen faucet, where you can lift and rotate to control volume and temp. That seems like it might be tough to control. If you really want to regulate temp and pressure, I have seen a single handle delta that has 2 rotating levers stacked on top of each other - one for temp and one for pressure.
By the way, I had to change out 2 Moen Posi-Temp cartridges the other day because someone didn't drain the water in their outdoor showers during a hard freeze. The part was 11 bucks per shower and took 15 minutes to change both. I was pretty impressed.
Jamie
Jamie,
In the absence of a better suggestion I will go for the Moen Posi temp. Hopefully the concern voiced by Bill for a small wall penetration isn't an issue with these.Karl
Karl,
Bill's right, it may not work with every valve - you're probably going to have to open the box and look carefully. With those Moen valves there is a U-shaped key that slides in perpendicular to the shaft (parallel to the finished wall) that holds the central cartridge in place. You have to make sure that the valve is protruding past the plane of the finished wall so that you can remove that. The trick is to make sure that it's not protruding so far that the handle sticks out from the wall so far that there's a big gap (that would normally be covered by the big plate you're trying to avoid using). Good luck!
Jamie
"That big plate that comes with a single handle can be eliminated if you install the valve right (right depth and a hole that is bigger than the valve but smaller than the handle)."You need to really study the desing and details of the valves before you try a trick like that.With some of them you would not be able to service them.I know that you could not operated the built in stop vavles, but that in it'self is only a minor problem. Most tub/shower don't have anykind of stop valve so it is the main valve when needed..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
And don't forget the foam tiles on the shower floor.
Kids sometimes slip in there and bang their heads.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements