Replies

1. 
   PRP | Aug 23, 1999 09:38pm | #1

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   Jennifer:

   I am not an electrician and I'm not in your neck of the woods, and I'm not exactly sure of what is meant by "heavy-up." Sounds to me like an evaluation and not repair work.

   If you had someone update your electrical service circuits from the panel box to the switches and receptacles then I would say that anyone would install 2 wire cable w/ an additional ground wire for most 15 and 20 amp circuits. I'm not sure by your post if someone did already come and do this. My understanding is that there are one or two methods of grounding at receptacles and fixtures in the National Electric Code that do not require redoing all the cable (changing it out) but that these are not best method of attaining the grounding desired.

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   Guest_ | Aug 24, 1999 01:44am | #2

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   Hey, we have a 60 y.o. house in the D.C. area (Arlington) too! Does yours still have the cloth-insulated wire?

   "Heavy-up" -- you didn't ask what it meant? My bet is it means a lot of money. The circuits should be evaluated individually for sufficiency and condition. Some may have been damaged by overamperage or other abuse, others may be fine for what they are doing.

   It is not permitted to install a 3-prong receptacle where no means of grounding exists. Most electricians will install a jumper (a green or bare wire) to the metal receptacle box to provide grounding, and this will usually work because the metal sheath of the electrical cables is grounded. However, this is not a very good ground, and today most cable have a separate bare wire for continuous ground. Our pre-move-in electrician did the jumper thing but apparently never tested the result; our boxes were not, it turned out, grounded ... so the installation of 3-prong receptacles created a safety hazard.

   Don't spend a ton of money unless there really is a problem ... our oldest wiring was in better shape than late-60's aluminum wire and I'm letting it be. Ask the electrician whether you have breakers, how many amps is the service (should be 135+), etc. Ask also about GFCI's, an inexpensive and effective safety device for the kitchen, bathroom, and outside that requires no rewiring.

   P.S. Don't use those cheapie 30¢ receptacles either. The $2 "commercial" ones are 100x better and still offer backwiring.

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   Jennifer_P | Aug 24, 1999 02:15am | #3

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   Thanks for the responses. The heavy-up is to bring more power to the house from the street poles. It supposedly is to allow us to use more appliances at once without blowing a circuit. We do have breakers and copper wiring and, yes, cloth insulated wiring. I already switched some two-prong receptacles for three-prong without grounding them. Someone told me that a jumper doesn't really work. Does anyone know how to determine if the boxes are grounded or not(and therefore, whether a jumper would work?) Why is the two-prong any safer than the three-prong if neither is grounded? I also heard that GFCIs aren't any safer if they're not grounded. Obviously, I would ask more questions of the electrician that gave me a quote before I hired him.

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   Guest_ | Aug 24, 1999 02:52am | #4

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   (1) Get gas appliances and save money on fuel too; (2) only if you're blowing the master breaker is the panel overloaded (or, if there is no master, there are too many subcircuits); (3) you can test for ground with a neon tester, but this doesn't tell you it is a "good" ground; (4) ungrounded three prong lets you plug in appliances that require ground to be safe (e.g., metal refrigerator); (5) the GFCI does NOT have to be grounded to work.

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   Guest_ | Aug 24, 1999 08:39am | #5

   *Jennifer;Two prong and 3 prong are the same if neither is grounded, EXCEPT 3 prong has the appearance of being grounded but is NOT. I believe code allows this as long as the receptacle has a sticker "this outlet not grounded" or some such.I believe one of your problems is who to ask the question: "do we need to upgrade our service". An electrician, unless very honest, is apt to steer you toward the upgrade. What is the size of your current service? (60,100,125A?) Do you have central Air? electric heat? Spa? what other major electric loads? If you have a 60 or 100A service in a soon-to-be remodelled 2000 sqft house, the answer is easy. Some more info may get you more detailed responses. IMHO, make certain the service is adequate, and as you remodel/upgrade different areas, also upgrade the electric. I wouldn't upgrade just the electric outlets in the entire house. I can see upgrading a shop, the kitchen, or the computer room/office in one shot.There was a FHB article a few months ago on testing outlets in old wiring. This might be of interest. A neon light may show you the box is grounded, or it may tell you the box is tied to neutral somewhere.

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   Guest_ | Aug 24, 1999 04:57pm | #6

   *Jennifer - as far as 2 and 3 prong outlets and grounding go, Adam is correct. If neither is grounded, they are equally unsafe. Adding jumpers to the outlets to tie them to the metal box (and supposedly ground them) would only work if your wires have metal jackets, which they may or may not. Further, that is not a reliable ground. It is difficult to test for ground due to the fact that the effectiveness of a ground relates to how much current is trying to go through it. A small current may pass through a weak ground where a larger current (the real danger) would not. One of the common neon-bulb testers that you buy at the hardware store will not do it. They use such a small current that you can ground them just by touching them with your fingers (not a good ground, or a good idea.) However, there is a relatively easy and cheap way to fix this problem and install 3-prong outlets using existing wiring. The resource for this info is an excellent book, "Wiring a House", which is written by Rex Cauldwell and published by Taunton. It is a wise investment even if you are not an electrician or tradesman. Page 130 shows how a GFCI can be used to make a 2-wire system with no ground safe by installing a GFCI in the first outlet of the circuit, and installing 3-prong receptacles in the outlets following it. None of these need to be grounded since if the GFCI detects a ground fault it kills the power to the circuit. Do not rely just on this description to wire this. But, it is safe, legal, and will work. One other caution: if light fixtures are in the same circuit with the GFCI (and some will be), if the GFCI trips (which is known to happen occasionally for no apparent reason), then your lights will go out, possibly leaving you searching for the reset button in the dark. Good luck and make sure you check out your electrician carefully, he should really be familiar with all of this.

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   Guest_ | Aug 24, 1999 08:08pm | #7

   *It sounds like your electrician and you want more more, perhaps 200 amp service. In our area of SoCal, one can not upgrade to 200 amp service without a new box, and a new box means new wiring. New wiring means opening up walls and strining new Romex or conduit. That means about $10,000 and 2-3 weeks.I do mostly rehab and restoration work of old and historic homes. My recommendation is to bite the bullet. You won't regret it 10 years from now. Have your electrican install new single cable drops with up to date weatherheads, a 200 amp box, and run 12-2 and 12-3 Romex into the home. Run a couple extra 12-3 cables to the attic and basement for future needs. Then hire a drywall or plastering contractor to close up the walls.

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   Guest_ | Aug 24, 1999 09:32pm | #8

   *I take a different view -- but then I haven't seen the house! Generally: if it works, don't replace it without a reason. Many people are living safely with knob-and-tube wiring (the original method) today. Our cloth-insulated wire is doing fine where it was not overheated by overlamping ceiling fixtures. We have 150 amp service and are using far far less, even with central A/C, power tools, typical kitchen appliances and an electric dryer. There was a 30 y.o. electric range too, but we upgraded to gas.I inferred from the question that an electrical upgrade was being recommended not for a remodel, but as a move-in upgrade. When you have a clear idea what remodeling you'd like to do, opening walls will be more efficient -- you won't end up doing it twice. (I fished all my circuits anyway, a good DIY task that is aggravating but doesn't require more than small holes.)In the next year you will find PLENTY of other things in your old house to spend money on, more urgent than the wires. And your thoughts on remodeling will evolve too.If you like, drop me a line to my e-mail -- I'd be happy to talk since our houses are probably constructed similarly. I'm guessing your house is not huge? I think this 1700-sf cape was built in 1940.Nick, interesting idea on using the GFCI. I would worry about nuisance trips too, and wouldn't want something like the refrigerator on a GFCI circuit. Our fridge was ungrounded (three prong receptacle, 3-wire Romex, but the nitwit snipped off the grounding wire) AND reverse polarity.

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   Guest_ | Aug 25, 1999 06:26am | #9

   *Andrew and Scooter - I also agree that upgrading all the wiring is the best way to go. Adding GFCI's or other methods of grounding doesn't address problems of overloaded circuits, but it is an option that can work. Nuisance tripping could be a real pain in the neck, especially with things like lights and refrigerators (and clocks, and VCR's, and......)but, strictly from a safety viewpoint is an option. I also live in a early 1900's house where almost everything is on a handful of circuits (what do you mean the bedroom lights went out when I flipped the breaker for the basement??!!!!). In any event, I think that it is up to the homeowner to decide how far she wants to go. To the homeowner, I would suggest that she talks to several electricians; a good, professional electrician will know the options, and could do work up to a complete re-wire quickly and with as little disturbance as possible.

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   Guest_ | Aug 27, 1999 01:55am | #10

   *Jennifer,I live in the WDC area in Maryland and I have a good electrician who is licensed in the entire area. He will give you a frank assesment of what you need with an emphasis on safety. And old houses are a speciality of his. The only problem is he charges travel time. You can e-mail me directly and I'll send you the info.As far as what a heavy-up means in this area, it means an increase in the amperage of the main service panel. This usually necessitates new service entrance cable (SEC), meter base, weatherhead, grounding rod, and main service box. Sometimes the SEC is sized sufficiently that it doesn't have to be replaced.As far as I can tell, the main reason for a heavy up seems to have more to do with number of circuits than with the actual load demand. Particularly in kitchens, it seems that manufactures want users to have dedicated circuits. Add a few more circuits for sump pumps, extra refrigerators, dehumidifiers (this is WDC afterall!) and the next thing you know the box is full. I'm getting ready to do a heavy-up for just this reason. I could probably get by with a sub-panel, but why bother? When you go to sell your house, the buyer's inspector will tell them the same thing yours told you: Get a heavy up. I think part of this is just a generic statement on the part of inspectors. I just sold a house and I noticed that they spent more time making generic statements than they did actually inspecting what was present.None of this implies that you HAVE to rewire your house, even if you get a heavy-up. If the armoured cable is intact, and your boxes are metal, then the grounding can be accomplished through the cable. And, as you may have noticed, the plastic in the outlets can get brittle and break with age. But outlets can be replaced without replacing wiring. But personally, I would NEVER EVER put in a grounded outlet without grounding it, no matter how it is labeled.Good luck!

4. 
   Guest_ | Aug 27, 1999 03:01am | #11

   *I could be wrong as I haven't read the entire NEC, but I have read several interpretations of the NEC and I didn't see anything that said that the grounding wire could not be separate from the cable carrying the neutral and hot wires. Thus in my old house I ran a separate ground wire from each outlet down under the floor to a grounding bus that I tied back to the main panel. This was probably easier in my Calif. house because there was no insulation to get in the way and it was a single story with a crawl space that allowed me to run the wires less than a foot from each outlet down through the floor and into the crawl space. For most of the outlets, I just removed the moulding below the outlet, drilled a hole through the floor with a long drill bit and then cut a narrow channel in the wall for the ground wire up to the outlet box. The moulding covered the hole (which I filled with caulk to keep the ants out) and repairing the dry wall was no big deal.

5. 
   Guest_ | Aug 27, 1999 04:58am | #12

   *I ran into the problem Bryan describes of running out of circuits. The subpanel I ran for the kitchen cost about $75 for the box and 6 breakers. I already had a double-pole breaker from the electric stove we replaced with gas. Not a bad deal, about what an electrician charges to install one receptacle.

6. 
   Guest_ | Aug 27, 1999 07:25pm | #13

   *Hi Jennifer,I'm sure a lot of us have a good deal of background/horror stories on rehabbing houses and seeing a jillion different combinations of electrical systems. They cannot be classified. Someone capable will have to inspect your wiring and give very specific recommendations. This (and gas plumbing) is the most important safety factor in your house. I would take no chances with even one faulty/iffy circuit/wire/box etc. and can give many examples.E-mail me and I'll give you more detail, if you like.Good Luck,Scottp.s. I think the term Heavy-up must be regional. Haven't heard that in

7. 
   Guest_ | Aug 27, 1999 07:43pm | #14

   *Yes, Scott is right. Most of my negative reaction stems from a recent experience with HVAC contractors trying to "build up" the job with services I didn't want or need -- raising the price to replace our central A/C by up to 50%. This sort of thing is what makes homeowners hate contractors. I went with the one who was the straightest with me, and he wasn't the cheapest or the one who said what I wanted to hear. I just trusted him, he was experienced and down-to-earth.Bad electric --> shock or fire. MANY fires start this way. A lot of contractors will reflexively recommend wholesale replacement, and this is indeed a very safe option (assuming good workmanship). The cotton-insulated wire is not inherently dangerous, but it can become so.Be alert for anyone peddling the fear factor to get your attention. And get more than one opinion -- it sounds like you approached the electrician already asking for a "heavy up" rather than an assessment. I have to go talk to an auto shop about what they told my wife concerning the car's brakes. We've all been there...

5. 
   Jennifer_P. | Aug 27, 1999 07:45pm | #15

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   I recently purchased a 60 year old home in the Washington, DC area. During our home inspection, we were advised to get a "heavy-up". An electrician gave us a verbal quote, however, I'm unsure what should be included in this service. In replacing the outlets ouselves, we noticed that there were only two wires - apparently no grounding wire. In doing the heavy-up, shouldn't we have a ground throughout the house to take advantage of the heavy-up? Would this require rewiring the house? Any assistance is appreciated.