Replies

1. 
   BossHog | Feb 27, 2003 07:27pm | #1

   Sounds like a good idea, on the surface.

   But what happens when things get out of hand? You start in the kitchen, then "while we're at it" you do a couple more things. Then one of your neighbors that you pissed off finds out about it and turns you in.

   Seems to me it's not worth it.

   Cooperation can only be reached if we work together.

1. 
   bedub | Feb 28, 2003 12:44am | #14

   Thanks for the advice, Boss Hog.  Sounds wise to me!  BeDub

2. 
   Kayto | Feb 27, 2003 07:48pm | #2

   Taking out a permit will generally ensure that a code inspector will review the construction. There is a benefit in having an inspector review the construction / remodel to make sure it at least meets the building codes.

1. 
   user-218654 | Feb 27, 2003 10:02pm | #5

   Having permit in hand also acts as a "CYA" in case the homeowner turns out to be a jerk and takes you to court... a "small job" can get very expensive in a big hurry if there's no permit issued and lawyers get involved!

2. 
   bedub | Feb 28, 2003 12:45am | #16

   Thanks for the reply.  I'm with you!!  BeDub

3. 
   rez | Feb 27, 2003 08:00pm | #3

   Construction is a constant state of war.

    

    

1. 
   jhyer | Feb 27, 2003 08:11pm | #4

    

   "Construction is a constant state of war."

   That really doesn't bode well for my restoration/renovation/remodel... I'll start preparing for battle!

   On a more serious note, this string raises questions in my mind about the whole process of permitting.  Are there any general guidelines (I know there are differences between states, and communities and how they handle building permits) for what level of design should be submitted for getting permits.  Should I have full construction drawings for a sub to be able to work to, or are rough drawings good for most permitting scenarios. 

   I'm looking at structural repair to an existing house and an addition.  plus lots of remodeling inside.  I don't want to get nailed on everything in the old portion (as I'm doing the work myself) when they come to inspect the addition.

   BTW, I'm in MA if that helps to answer this question.

   Thanks

   Jeff

1. 
   JohnSprung | Feb 27, 2003 10:10pm | #6

   >  Should I have full construction drawings for a sub to be able to work to, or are rough drawings good for most permitting scenarios. 

   Here it's very important to hit the right balance.  Either too much or too little detail and you're in trouble.  That's part of the reason why there are professional permit pullers who, for a couple grand, will do the whole chore for you.  For simple stuff, a draftsman/puller can do it.  But since you have structural issues, you'd need an engineer/puller if you were here.  Ask around among other homeowners who have done remodeling, and see if it works like that back there.

   -- J.S.

1. 
   jhyer | Feb 27, 2003 10:15pm | #7

   thanks for the response... BTW, where is here (west coast, south, etc)

1. 
   JohnSprung | Feb 27, 2003 10:17pm | #8

   Ah, yes.  Los Angeles.

   -- J.S.

2. 
   CloudHidden | Feb 27, 2003 11:28pm | #9

   >Are there any general guidelines

   The permitting offices I've dealt with have been very cooperative about fielding questions and letting me know what they'd like to see. They tell me when napkin sketches are ok, when they need formal drawings, and when they need stamps. Free phone call. Just make sure you talk to them BEFORE you start work. They're a lot meaner if you've already started before you first talk to them.

1. 
   UncleDunc | Feb 28, 2003 12:00am | #11

   But don't give them your name and address before you get the information you need.

3. 
   Jencar | Feb 27, 2003 11:44pm | #10

   Our house has lots of old work that was Mickey Moused...when the BI comes out to inspect a current project, he's very cool about ignoring that stuff, (he recognizes a 15 yo hack job when he sees one) and sticking to the scope of the permit. Builds a more productive working relationship.

4. 
   theharv | Mar 05, 2003 04:00pm | #32

   I am just wrapping up my own house, that was in the beginning a remodel, but came out a new home.  Between poor craftsmanship, and my lil friends eating my joists.  I had to start over.  Permits are well advised.  Most mine were under $200.  Where the coast went up for me was the variances I had to apply for.  Due to the fact my lot was no longer a buildable lot and I had 3 set back issues.  There is a rule here if you demo to the foundation, it's considered new construction.  My blocks were no longer cover by grandfather clause.  They were to close to the front and side yards.  That was more money for that application at the construction office plus you have to stand before a board and plea you case before them.  Brought me up to a total of $2200 after all my mailings to neighbors, other fees and such.   My prints were made by me and only showed a floor plan.  They were satisfied with that.  Good luck. 

   Bye the way never will I build for my self again.  I had the worst super I have even meet ......  MY WIFE!!!!!!!!

   Edited 3/5/2003 8:15:02 AM ET by theharv

1. 
   Remodeler | Mar 05, 2003 07:44pm | #33

   tell us about your super...work conditions, pay, etc.

   We're in midst of major remodel.  We were at bookstore w/coffee shop for date and chatting with other couples last weekend.  My wife says "my priority is to get the heavy furniture back in the nursery"  baby due in less than 3 mos. (first one).  So I said, "don't you mean - your priorities for MY work" she agreed.  Still have finishes in new bathroom and whole kitchen remod to go.  I laughed hard for a while.

   remodeler

1. 
   JohnSprung | Mar 05, 2003 10:29pm | #34

   >  Still have finishes in new bathroom and whole kitchen remod to go. 

   Ah, but on the bright side, you're down to the point where you can confine the chaos to a room or two at a time.  That makes it a lot easier than the structural/plumbing/electrical days when you have to tear everything apart at the same time.  ;-)

   -- J.S.

2. 
   WorkshopJon | Mar 06, 2003 03:57am | #35

   I grew up in a NYC suburb.  In general there was very little new construction.  I remember reading in the local paper a quote from the building inspector something to the effect that "nobody does anything in my town without a permit."  I'm not making this up.  I remember a woman being fined because she had placed a bird feeder in her front yard and had not applied for a building permit!  Apparently out there (Westchester County) permiting fees are their bread and butter.  Not so here in good old Wisconsin.  I have had many dealings with our local inspector and he genuinely seems to have an interest in making sure that new construction conforms to code, and will talk your ear off with free advice. but with respect to remodeling...Don't ask, don't tell.  Not to brag, but new construction has been going on all around me for years while I have done numerous improvements on my house without pulling a permit. Never been a problem.  And I'm still waiting for the tax bill for the garage I did pull a permit on a year ago (and was signed off on last May).  Every town is different.

2. 
   bedub | Feb 28, 2003 12:48am | #17

   He Rez, I thought it was marrage that was the constant state of war.  Construction is the constant state of challange.  In any event, I sense what you mean and agree!.  Thanks, BeDub

4. 
   AdamJH | Feb 28, 2003 12:24am | #12

   I'll throw my 2 cents in...

   If you're a contractor, I'd be very leery of this kind of thinking. Building codes are just as strictly enforced as the penal code, vehicle code, etc.. 

   Doing work like this without a permit is like stealing, speeding, etc.. If you do it enough, the question is not if you'll get caught, but when.. And if you are a contractor, you can kiss your license goodbye, in addition to fines and possible jail time. This also applies if you're a private homeowner doing the work yourself.

   Also, you would be totally out on a limb legally and financially. What if the customer decides he/she doesnt feel like paying?  If you sue, the court will want to see the permit. If the structure fails, or the customer sues you because the roof leaks, etc.. you're screwed. The customer can plead ignorance about needing a permit, but you're ruined.

   Its kinda like speeding on the freeway every day. Sure, you'll probably get away with it more often that not, but be prepared for the consequences if you're caught...

1. 
   bedub | Feb 28, 2003 12:50am | #18

   I couldn't agree with you more fully.  Thanks for the wisdom!  BeDub

5. 
   Ward | Feb 28, 2003 12:32am | #13

   Did some work on a fixer upper a buddy bought at auction.  He kinda himhollard when I asked if he had a Permit or if I ought to pick one up.  He said, tryin to keep the cost down, you know.  I said i'ld get one.

   Later in the job, we were standing around trying to figure out what to do with a hacked up 1/2 garage, 1/2 storage shed, 1/2 exterior stairway (hey thats more than a whole) anyway, he sensed my frustaration with the whatRwe gonadues and said "thats why there are building codes" 

   It was truely a beautiful thing.

6. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 28, 2003 12:44am | #15

   bedub... that homeowner wants to involve you in collusion to break your local laws..

   you and he will become partners, except that his livelyhood doesn't depend on your reputation.. yours does..

   if you are just starting out in this business, think about who you want on your side.. homeowners who request that you do something dishonest... or  the building inspector and his successors that you will be dealing with for the rest of your career ..

   without insulting your customer.. just nicely tell him that you don't work without a permit...if anything goes wrong with the job..the lack of permit works in his favor, not yours

   but hey, whadda i no ?

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1. 
   bedub | Feb 28, 2003 12:53am | #19

   Mike, you could not have been more eloquent.  Thanks for the right script!  BeDub

7. 
   hasbeen | Feb 28, 2003 04:12am | #20

   I've built in five different States.  The Code adopted in each area is different and differently applied.  There is still no Code adopted in lots of rural areas.

   I called the town office in the little town my dad lives in when I was getting ready to redo his kitchen.  They asked me, "What do you want a building permit for?"

   My brother just added onto his daughter's home in another small town.  He said when he called for a permit they told him they were sure he'd do a good job.  No permit required! 

   The inspector where I live has no background or training in construction.  When I called for a final on a recent project he came over, looked around with a very questioning face, and said, "it'll be alright as long as we don't get any complaints."  Complaints???!!!???  I could go on with the examples, but you get the drift.

   For those of you who are used to building in wealthy and urban markets I agree that your comments are appropriate.  Out in the sticks you may have to teach the inspector, if there is one...

   Average Joe:

   I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/4/2003 9:04:10 PM ET by Hasbeen

8. 
   FrankB89 | Feb 28, 2003 04:43am | #21

   Mike Smith probably gave the most concise post on this thread.  I would only add that each jurisdiction is different in the way they approach permitting and inspections.

   In Oregon, the state building codes division has oversight on all rural permits and some of the smaller burgs that can't afford a bldg. dept.  Cities and towns usually have their own in-house permitting and inspecting office which invariably meets or exceeds the CABO code the state adheres to.  When I'm working in one of the local towns,  there are a few more issues to deal with and be attentive to than when I'm out in the boonies somewhere.

   The question came up about the required detail on plans;  I don't consider myself a designer, but I have drawn out a number of houses and remodel/addition plans and, knowing what the jurisdiction I'm dealing with wants, I always try to avoid as much detail as possible on the dwgs that are submitted for the permit. The inspectors couldn't care less whether you're going to do Greek returns or tin ceilings or wall paper borders, but they do want the rebar specified, shear walls to be engineered and joist and rafter spans to meet code.  (Actually, when I think about it, our inspectors might be confused by too much detail).

   Too much detail on a set of plans can box you in with the inspection process.  On the other hand, when certain details are important to the owner and must be done in a certain way, shape or form,  a set of drawings for the craftsman or sub can be invaluable.

   I wouldn't even think of working without a permit, if the scope of work required one.

    

1. 
   bedub | Feb 28, 2003 03:07pm | #22

   Thanks for the insight.  Well stated wisdom that I'm sure has come from lots of experience.  Thanks again, BeDub

1. 
   brownbagg | Feb 28, 2003 04:41pm | #23

   around here the purpose of the permit is so the county can raise the property tax. It sound mean but it is true. The inspectors are some high ranking county employee brother in law that cannot get a job in the real world. I started my garage last week, paid the permit fee and told the inspector, I'm not calling for inspection. He said O.K

   I claimed I knew more about concrete placement than anybody at the county. In fact, my company does the roadway inspections for the county.

1. 
   alecs | Mar 02, 2003 07:27pm | #24

   I see a connection between this permit discussion and the other thread about all the things that have been done by graduates of Half-#### school.  (How Ignorant Can Someone Be?). 

   As a homeowner, I want to do things right when I do renovations.  I also don't have any objection to the cost of a building permit in and of itself, and it would be nice to have an inspector sign off on the work, assuming the inspector knew his stuff.  However, here in Taxachusetts, especially in the city I live in, the inspection dep't says you can do carpentry, but no electrical, no plumbing.  Not even changing a switch from ivory to white, or swapping out a faucet.  So the two options are do it yourself and break the law, or hire a contractor, pay through the nose, and get the inspector involved, which may lead to even more work if they want you to bring other things up to code. 

   For example, I asked an electrician about upgrading my service to 200A and replacing the fuse panel with circuit breakers.  He advised me against it, saying that the inspector in my city would make me relocate the meter from the basement to outside, install hardwired smoke detectors in every part of the house, etc.  Not that these would be bad things, but it makes a $500 job cost $5000.   

   Now a good friend of mine lives in southern NH, and he describes a much better relationship between homeowners and inspectors.  He brings a sketch of his project to the building inspector, the inspector talks to him about the project, gives him tips on what to do, suggests types of material to buy.  The inspector comes out during the project and makes sure everything looks good, gives more pointers, etc.  Once the project is nearing completion, the inspector comes back again for a final inspection and signs off on it.  My buddy is allowed to do his own electrical, plumbing, etc.

   If there was that type of building inspection department here, I would be pleased as punch to work with the inspectors.  But otherwise, it's hard to swallow the added hassle and expense.  In the meantime, I continue to rip out all the half-#### stuff that previous owners/contractors have done, and try my best to do it professionally and correctly.  But I bet some of the stuff described in the other thread is due to the antagonistic relationship between many homeowners and their building inspection departments.  People who resent the thought of an inspector, and don't know what they're doing, just hacking away. 

   Of course, there are some people who just have no clue about what they're doing.  I once ripped out all the wiring in an artist's studio, and by wiring, I mean a whole ton of those zip-cord extension cords, stapled onto the wall and running all over the place.  I suppose that the building inspectors are in place to catch things like that, but those are the types of places where inspectors are seldom invited.  What are you going to do???  Just my $0.02. 

1. 
   rez | Mar 02, 2003 07:35pm | #25

   Ya, Southern Hew Hampshire. Every building inspector I ever met there was great. Good living there except for the snow.

   The BI must live by the state motto: 'Live Free or Die'.

    

    

2. 
   Qtrmeg | Mar 02, 2003 08:13pm | #26

   Err, each town is different, in every way you can imagine.

   It seems to me that the towns/cities that have the larger building depts are the ones that keep you on your toes. The small towns are a trip. One town has the police chief inspect, that's always tough. Another town asks "Are you done?", yeps, "ok". Hmm, you don't want to inspect this?, "Should I?" I just laughed, nope, not really.

   I did get banned from one town, that was kinda funny.

3. 
   toolnut | Mar 02, 2003 09:57pm | #27

   "I did get banned from one town, that was kinda funny. "

   What did you do?   We got to know.

4. 
   Qtrmeg | Mar 03, 2003 01:31am | #28

   Oh sure, right away you assume it was something I did?

   The inspector in a little town blew off an inspection for a deck frame over an old crawlspace. Soo, I put the subfloor down and moved on. Later on he says I have to rip up the subfloor in several spots so he can inspect. I explained that he can see anything he needs to see from a little access hole in the main basement. He thought the hole was too small to get thru to do a proper inspection, and he really felt it would be best if I ripped up the subfloor. At this point I might have said something like if he couldn't see what he needed to from the hole I would cram his arse thru it.

   He must have been able to see enough afterall, but I think I hurt his feelings.

5. 
   DaveRicheson | Mar 04, 2003 01:17am | #29

   At least he did not get stuck in the hole. We had an inspector on a HUD job climb into the attic to inspect the fire wall between apartment units. He stepped on the dw ceiling over the mechanical room. Got wedged between the truss bottom cord, wall and furnace phelum. Took three of us to pull his big arse back up through the ceiling. He said,"that ceiling material doesn't seem like it is as strong as it should be." He did pass the building, and 8 more without ever inspecting another firewall. I could never keep a straight face when he showed up do an inspection after that.

6. 
   Qtrmeg | Mar 04, 2003 03:02am | #30

   If he got stuck in the hole, he would still be there. ;-)

9. 
   MikeOuch | Mar 04, 2003 04:15am | #31

   In CT, the Inspector might as well be the assessor and the tax collector.  As soon as you get a final, the tax bill shows up.

   I don't go for doing jobs at other people's houses without pulling a permit, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pull a permit to do a job in my house....especially if I know it is above code.

   Mike O.