Well, I have had pathetic to zero luck in finding someone qualified to install step-flashing for a metal roof cap above a bay window. This metal roof cap rests up against a brick facade. I’ve tried roofers from the yellow pages and NoServiceMagic and got weak to terrible results.
While one of two origins of the water infiltration is believed to have been solved (improperly flashed greek-return), there is still water infiltration on the outside of the brick that is behind the metal cap. Some of you might remember that this problem first came about back in September, 2004.
I cannot believe I cannot find a roofer that a) can be located and communicated with, b) that speaks english (I speak no other language), c) knows what ‘step flashing’ is and how to install it, and d) is willing to actually come out to my home and quote or offer to do the work.
What is amazing is that I am offering a blank f-ing check and in the past 21-months of looking cannot find anyone outside of the lame to come out. As such, the room with this wonderful bay window is still not used, still not leak-free, and I cannot hope to find anyone competitent AND confident enough to do properly install step flashing.
What is more frustrating is I see step flashing being installed on new properties (mine is a whopping 5-6 year old home) being step-flashed left and right, but unfortunately none of the installers speak english, or they speak and and never show up or call back, etc., etc., etc.
I know many will suggest, as haven been suggested here before, to do the work myself, but that is not an option. BTW, I can find plenty of qualified, english-speaking, call-returning, yadda, yadda, yadda roofers in Atlanta, but no one wants to come up to the Buford area (think Mall of Georgia for the locals) for ‘repair work’.
Replies
You might be looking in the wrong place.
I go to my sheetmetal guy for something like that.
The roofing companies I used to work for - about half of them had their own SM shop as part of the business. So if you found one like that, they would yunderstand what you need better than a simple shingle layer, or a duct-work outfit.
BTW, if this is a copper cap, you need base flashing and counterflashing, - no step flashing would be used here, so you might be miscommunicating
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Every time I mention this to someone, thinking like you are, they turn around and tell me that I do not need a sheet-metal worker/installer, but a good roofer. I wonder if there is an organization or association for sheet-metal workers I could find contractors (tradesmen) in my area? BTW, its not copper, and I've attached a picture of the cap.
There's been a slew of those nail em on leakers mentioned here. You'd think the manufacturer would INSIST on a proper install. And it's not new either. They've been around and done wrong at least 30 yrs.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I think that I mentioned this before.You sure that water is not gettting behind the bricks and running down the backside, in addtion to any that leaks in the front.About 1-2 years ago there was a woman posting here with a similar problem (and also from the Atlanta area). Hers was open on the inside and IIRC she reported water on the backside of the bricks.
Bill, with the cornice return repaired, the ONLY place water is coming in from is on the exterior surface of the brick behind the cap. The mating surface between the metal cap and the brick facade is not sealed, even though everyone that has been out here wanted to do a caulk-a-thon solution. Its the shade-tree mentality. :)
BTW, the 1-2 year old posting was by http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=n&terms=sasha&submit=Go and everyone assumed it was a women, when it wasn't. I've often found it interesting how responses seemed to have a higher tendancy to be kind when directed to a female of the species rather than a male of the species.
I am equally amazed that I couldn't even fly someone into Atlanta for this repair when I was willing to cover all the costs. Amazing. Last option is through the HOA's ARC to remove the bay window and cap.
It was a woman
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Well,I have a harder timedifferentiating -I'm a pretty good roofer
And I've done a fair amt of sheete metal work
And some masonryMy sheetmetal guy does some roofs
my mason does flashings almost as good as mineif you were around here, you wouldn't have a problem finding the skilled person, just the time to do it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I had anything to do with that bay roof, I would insist on through flashing, which has to be laid with the brick. That may have been done above the unit (can't tell - if a membrane was used it wouldn't be visible, but there would be weep holes in the course above it).
There may be some confusion of terms, also. In my terminology, the step flashing is the base flashing, which is part of the roof panel in this situation. Counter flashing is what needs to be done, which is the part that's cut into the brick joints and overlaps the step or base flashing. The confusion of terms is agrevated because the counter flashing usually looks like "steps". Good luck.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Exactly how far are from say Asheville NC?
I come down frequently ( my grand kid is just WEST of there) and will be glad to ADD counters to it, but like my contractor Grant said, if the brick isn't thru flashed or the weeps are plugged/nonexistant..you have bigger problems.
Looks like a weekend after this 4th might be open, the DW wants to visit the kin. I go th FLA over the month change, so that is out..after that we are into August...pick a weekend.
I can probly do it in about 3 hrs, setting the counters in the brick with a diamond saw cut and Geocel. A warranty , if the problem is what I can see from the pics..if we have issues other than...I'll do the best tha can be done with whats available.
Email me [email protected] for the particulars.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Spere, I am tied to the Buford, GA location, which is Exit 120 on Interstate 85.
So, last Thursday I stumble upon a metal roofing company here in Atlanta. Their website says both commercial and residential. I call them, they come out, its a salesperson of the 'southern babtist mentaility' trying to sell me on a ribbed metal roof. Sorry, a ribbed sheet metal isn't going to pass ARC, and I already asked. Ok, they can engage their custom sheet-metal fabricator and implement a 'repair' that they will warranty. They bring this individual out on Friday and he looks, thinks, and looks some more. They elave and this 'fabricator' comes back out late on Saturday and realizes (he forgot) that this is a concave crimped-seam metal roof. His solution isn't going to work. I repeat what I said on both Thursday and Friday, which is that any replacement endeavor CAN include non-concave styles, but the sheet-metal must be flat, not ribbed. Ok, this 'fabricator' says it will be easier then. They frame in a substructure, which isn't there presently (wonderful southern invisible building codes), a substrate roof, felt, and sheet-metal. He leaves and I get another call ~8PM telling me their flat sheet-metal supplier may not be open Monday due to the holidy on Tuesday. I say "fine", but let me know if this is a Wednesday event or a Monday event. At 10AM no call. I'm proactive and call their 'fabricator' who actually explains that he installs prefabricated units, and not site-fabricated units, and the roofing company's site-fabricator will come out once the framing is done. Now, I call the roofing company which turns out to be some mom & pop operation, with pop having fun out on the golf course this morning and not calling the sheet metal supplier to let me and the framer know. Nice, and wonderful, misrepresentation of their abilities. As such, I am back to square-one on this headache, and I am now in month #22 and still no solution seen in the near future. BTW, it was nice to learn that the crimped-based metal roof currently on the bay window was not meant for a brick facade. Because of the brick, there wasn't a way for the original builder to tuck the lip of the metal underneath like you would a clapboard-sided house.
I do not think I can shake my head violently enough to resolve this problem. Kerosene is looking so tempting ...
Damm, it shouldn't be so hard for ya.
I could flash it with hand seamers and an angle grinder in less time than it would take to get there..I am still planning on staying up here next weekend ( the wife is going down to NC) BUT, if they can't figgure a way to flash it, in the mean time, then I'd come do it.
IIRC, that brick facade was "questionable" to begin with..
If I don't venture down, send me a close up pic of the interface of brick and roof, I might be able to walk ya thru it pretty painlessly..
If I DO venture down to NC , it's your dime from when I get to your house, till I leave your house, plus materials. But my hourly rate is not exhorbitant.
I'd prefer ya get a 4'' grinder and have at it tho'...LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
So, the one metal roofing company that has come out actually doesn't have anyone in-house that can do this. And his contractor for doing framing and such also seems to have vaporized some of his previously reported skills.
Still at square one. I do not know which will come sooner, a resolution to this problem or early heart disease (and attack).
I need a close up pic.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Hey Nuke, call me @ 770-229-2408. I'm in Griffin but would come up for your problem. Jerry
Jerry, thanks for the offer. On the day you responded, I got contacted by a roofing company from across Atlanta (Kennesaw). Before entertaining a visit, I asked the person to explain to me how they would install a standing-seam metal roof over a bay window with a brick facade. He talked, I listened, and I was amazed he answered correctly (going by what FHB members said is the correct method).
Ok, so I entertained a visit by them. The company rep showed up a couple of minutes early, took a look inside and out, understood what I was after, gesticulated while repeating how the work would be conducted, offered me the options (concave or flat), etc., and then went back and wrote up an estimate for the job for the options I agreed on.
He then left me copies of license, copy of license to operate for their on-staff architect, insurance, workmen's comp., references, and some company literature. While I would have asked for all of this before committing, I was astonished he was prepared with it. Seems they get a lot of work handed to them other roofing companies (including commercial co's) that do not do more crafty work like this job.
The commitment is for Friday (next), and if it goes well I'll post pictures either Friday evening or Saturday morning. Unfortunately, next week I start working a day shift, which I will greatly detest after haven worked second shift for six years.
Sounds good Nuke. Good luck and hope it works out for you. Jerry
Oh, while the wife was present she kept to her own work, but the neighbors had some entertainment watchging the non-Latino crew of five perform the work. Unfortunately, the new metal was sat on my nice green Bermuda lawn for a period of time and the sun 'baked' the sod.
Edited 7/16/2006 7:42 am ET by Nuke
Oh, while the wife was present she kept to her own work, but the neighbors had some entertainment watchging the non-Latino crew of five perform the work. Unfortunately, the new metal was sat on my nice green Bermuda lawn for a period of time and the sun 'baked' the sod.
When I left Friday morning at 6:30AM the lawn was all green, then this is how it appeared Saturday mid-morning:
Nuke,<!----><!----><!---->
You’ve probably already checked this but are you sure of the location of the leak? (If so then I’m just wasting space.) Had a leak job in Marietta in Fall of 2004 with a nearly identical arrangement that you show in the pics. The leak turned out to be a void in the mortar/caulk in the 2nd floor window sill above the bay. <!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Cheers<!----><!---->John7G
UPDATE:
So, the representative came out, and like the first time I was not present. I hate day jobs. Anyway, the rep claimed the current water infiltration was coming from the window sill. That may be true, but it IS coming from below the sill AT the roof line itself.
Unfortunately, both Friday and yesterday we had some rather strong late afternoon thunderstorms that prohibited any after-work experimentation. Both days of storms produced leaks on both the exterior and interior surfaces of the brick where it enters the study area at the bay window.
This morning, the brick was try so the wife and I conducted some good water testing. I unreeled a new garden hose out the window of the bedroom above the study, attached a spray handle, and put the wife on a kitchen ladder directly underneath the bay window roof in (inside the room).
Initially, I shot one side of the new metal roof where it interfaces with the brick, but deliberately not engaging the corner-middle intersection. I was toward the middle of the roof, from above, aiming in such a manner to not afford natural wicking underneath the counter-flashing. No leak.
As soon as I took the intersection where the side meet the middle section of the roof water was easily able to get behind the counter-flashing and leak into the bay window. And this was while aiming the spray handle to best-afford no wicking. Jesus! And since this is my first close-up inspection from the second floor, I was dismayed at the use of shade-tree caulking (silicone)--another issue to address as I explicitly prohibited its use because it barely will last a year.
Ok, took some pictures and experimented with the other corner. Same routine and same EXACT results. The intersection of the corn and middle roof sections is such that the counter-flashing is worthless, regardless how I aimed the spray handle to avoid water leaking into the bay window.
Finally, I tested the middle section of the roof. Its fine, and no leaks resulting from it. I chose to avoid engaging the brick window sill for the window above, and found no faults in painter's-caulking, or failures in the brick's mortar. Each piece of experimentation resulted in water leaking ONLY on the exterior surface of the brick just underneath the bay window metal roof.
The roofer's rep suggesting it was the brick window sill above and or the wood-brick interface of the window is complete BS. I'm getting ready to call him for another appointment. I WILL take the f-ing day off this time, and maybe load a pistol for laughs. (joking)
PICTURES:
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c1.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c2.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c3.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c4.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c5.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c6-watersprayview.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c7-watersprayview.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c8.jpg
http://www.brae.us/tmp/bay/c9-rainview.jpg
What I see is not the leak problem , but the face fastners in the counter flashing is way WRONG. Why puncture a perfectly good flashing then goob caulk on it?
If the standing seam was flatten down, then the counter can be riveted to the flattend seam, minimizing the open area where the current counter is held high..the counter shold be inserted in a kerf, and plugged in with a roll of metal, then caulked only in the kerf.
Also, those pans should crawl up the wall a bit, but I can't see if they do.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>then the counter can be riveted to the flattend seam, minimizing the open area where the current counter is held high..the counter shold be inserted in a kerf, and plugged in with a roll of metal, then caulked only in the kerf.There should ne no reason for that apron to lap out on the roof like that. The roof pnas should bend up the wall and the counter would come over that. They probably didn't know how to or didn't want to bother finishing the tops of the seams. That flashing on the sides is not kerfed into the brick, IMHO.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
"Common guys, it's getin' hot an' beer thirty is just around the corner.
Cut that corner and let's wrap this one up"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yup
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
i don't see any let-in either .... looks like surface applied & caulked
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Looks good Nuke. Now it's time for the test of time. Did they let the flashing into the brick or are they relying on caulk to hold up? Best wishes for a long stretch of peace of mind for you.
They definitely went into the brick, per their plans. In fact, I have brick dust on the sidewalk that passes by the bay window. From what the wife said, this was a five-hour job. This evening I am going to put a sprinkler on it just above the new metal and just beneath the window sill of the second floor window. I figure 10-15 minutes of water-from-sprinkler should be sufficient for a driven-water test. What do you think?
If this works I am going to be so happy.
Good looking job there. About what I woulda done.
Hey, we try to save the grass when we can, but shid happens.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
Oh, I am much more happier about the roof than upset with the lawn. I'm just going to let their rep know with the invoice payment they may wish to drop a mover's blanket on the lawn before the metal. I went out this morning and saturated the spots with water. Its Bermuda and will recover.
And my wife is opening up to me out-sourcing the lawncare. I need to start not-caring about it. lol
I ask a lawn care specialist about this and he said that there is really nothing that can be done to protect a lawn.In my case it was holding dirt for a day or two on a tarp or similar.In your case, however, some 2x4 laid down would have probably helped as it allows air under the metal. But I suspect that there would still be some damage from the radiant heat off the metal. And where the 2x4 where.
We do LARGE areas of copper pans, and site storage is always a concern on established yardage...standing the pans up on end against a wall or scaffold is a very good way to avoid that damage, but hell, we all FU on occaision.
What finish is that on the metal?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
The shiney copper doesn't harm grass as bad as black metal. I've burnt a fair amount of grass with terne pans, but not done much damage with copper. I've killed grass with a tarp on it for 4 hours or less on 90+ degree sunny days.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
Good idea. I'll tarp my back 40...hell, I'll tarp it all.
Can I still nab some scaffold? About 4 high , one tower? 6 walk boards,,,from 1st week of aug till middle of sept?
be back later, I am cutting off the first 16" of sheathing and Rand R the sheathing and dry in before it gets stoopid hot.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This evening I am going to put a sprinkler on it just above the new metal and just beneath the window sill of the second floor window. I figure 10-15 minutes of water-from-sprinkler should be sufficient for a driven-water test. What do you think?Direct the water so it hits the window sill after you test the flashing. Unless there's some sort of thru flashing, you still have leak potential. You might want to look at your flashing a little closer. If it's cut into the brick, why are there face nails in the flashing? I've blown up the pic and it doesn't look cut in to me, but it gets fuzzy just before I can get a good look.Good luck with the water test - I'd run it longer than 15 mins.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
The water testing will be on the new metal roof first, the the sill above next, and finally (finally!) the cornice/greek return that was repaired last March above them.
Yeah, its been some unfriendly weather here in Atlanta. The highs going well into the 90ºF and humidity >60% in the afternoons (and above 80-90% in the mornings).
nuke.. i know that cutting the brick is a fairly typical method..
but i would think the preferred method would be steps let-in to the courses, so no bricks were cut
we don't have a lot of residential brick structures here, so it is mostly commercial work, where cutting the brick is more common
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Would you be willing to share what it cost to have this work performed?
The quote was for $854 to remove, frame & deck, and install new system. If I remember correctly, the decking option was $250 (of the $854). I would have paid double if it meant I wouldn't have gone through ~40 roofer 1st-contract attempts, entertained about 8 different people, hired 3 different people (shadetree people), etc.
Ok, its late enough for me to go play with the water ...
Sounds quite reasonable,and a nice looking job too.
Hope it passes your water test. Thanks for sharing the cost aspect.
And it still leaks. Left top corner and top center are leaking. Water is seen dripping on the exterior surface of the brick behind the nail-headers they fastened to the brick for the decking. Already called the roofer/contractor company and they are coming back out again.
Good thing I haven't paid them yet.
The cynical side of me sees my inability to meet the second precept of 'shelter'. Damn those cavemen!
I think they just cut the mortar joint at the top and caulked those side pieces on. I can't see any sign of the kerf ending at the bottom of the flashing.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
Yeah about the kerf not showing but, I/we have relieved the counter lip and cover the overcut.
It still looks like a shoddy job to my eyes.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
>>>>>>>I/we have relieved the counter lip and cover the overcut.Yeah, but the caulk looks beaded on the surface, not squirted into a kerf. It doesn't matter though, if it's not thru flashed it's gonna leak regardless of what he does on the surface of the brick. He's refused to pay any heed to that and that may be why no one wants the job.
Andrew Douglas: What have you been up to? Jim White: Killin' time... It just won't die.
http://grantlogan.net/
That and the pucker on the frieze is awful looking and the pucker on the rake counter makes it look like it is nailed on.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
Guys, you are talking mostly greek to me. Pucker, frieze, and rake are not exactly known to me in the context of this discussion. lol
So, to the ignorant it looks good, but to the critical eye it looks bad.
Where the nails are exposed and driven too tite ( possibly), the metal is goonched up, or puckered.
We blind nail and poprivet almost everything.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
I'm with you, and the excessive amt of caulk ( probably silicone) is hiding work, good or bad, buit that kind of bead is not needed with a good job cut in and returned. They are depending too much on caulk but didn't tool it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sphere,Buford is lovely. We used to own 3 acres there on Lake Lanier.Go for it!
Thought Sphere offered to take a look?
If having a low wage work force was good for a country's economy then why hasn't Mexico built a fence?
I coulda last weekend, but I got no response, so I didn't head south with the wife.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
With those wasp stings you might not could see it anyway now. Hope that get's better quick.
I feelin for Nuke here, too.
If having a low wage work force was good for a country's economy then why hasn't Mexico built a fence?
Thanks, Yup, I felt sorry for his dilemma.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"