Hi guys,
I’m visiting from over at knots and I need your help. I’m thinking of buying the bottom floor of a duplex that I live in ( it’s that or I have to find a place and move a well equiped workshop……….I don’t want to have to do that ).
Right now the place is heated by a gas furnace and water piped to radiators throughout six units. The new landlord wants to cut all the pipes out and put in electric baseboard heating so he can break up the property and sell it off unit by unit.
The unit I live in has the furnace in the garage below it. I want to keep this system just for my unit, I like the heat it gives and it keeps the garage ( where my workshop and wood supply is located ) warm and dry in the winter.
My question is ……….I want to change the gas furnace for an electric one and keep the system of water pipes and radiators It would be too much of a hassle to have the gas entry moved to my garage. Where on the web would I start my search for info on electric furnaces and how to make the transition.
Thanks for any help,
Brent
BTW I’m in Montreal Canada
Edited 7/5/2005 2:32 pm ET by brent
Edited 7/5/2005 2:33 pm ET by brent
Replies
I don't know about Canada, but here the cost would triple to change from gas to electric. I would be brain dead to agree to that.
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Hi Piffin,
Here in Quebec the cost is about the same or maybe a bit less for electric.
Brent
Let me speculate as to why...I know the Maritimes have natural gas to waste.
I know we Mainers get a large percentage of our electricity from up north there.
Are there gas fired generators somewhere and a lot of high voltage transmissionm lines from the gas fields to the industrial centers?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Are there gas fired generators somewhere and a lot of high voltage transmissionm
I'm going to guess that the NG price is artificially (by Provincial fiat) high, rather than electricity being hugely great supply. I could be wrong, too.
OP has a task ahead, no matter what. The cost of gas unit is higher up front. Those of us with inexpensive NG can recoup that higher initial cost with far, far less expensive operating costs.
If the same number of BTUs of heating cost the same if supplied with elec or NG; then the cheaper unit "wins." I just can't picture any electric resistance heating being as cost efficient as a system run from gas.
But, I've been accused of picturing things nobody else does a time or two . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You're right that there is a great loss of efficiency in converting gas energy to electric, but I was supposing an opposite artificial adjustment to prices - that elerctric might be kept artificially low as a way of subsidizing industries that use the electrons while supporting the drillers who have gfas to burn. It might be cheaper to transmitt electicity long distances over power lines than to lay in gas lines to carry the energu that way too.
I made that supposition based on the history Canadian govt has for subsidizing activity of one kind or another with a socialistic and central planning influence. Politics does not necessarily encourage efficiency in any delivery system.
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I am in the Kansas City area.Winter incremental electric is 3.4 cents per kWh.NG was 86 cents (per 100 ccf if I remember correctly), but has since dropped to about 69.When I did some calcualation last winter a HP was hands down winner and resistive still came out ahead, but I don't know if it was enough to make up the difference at 69.
HP was hands down winner and resistive still came out ahead,
There's a tricky slope in the comparison--how many btu re kwh versus btu per therm. Which then needs to be washed past the method of heating. A passive system like HW radiators or passive floor heat is much cheaper for needing lets elec for pumps than a forced air system.
I'll admit to a far-too cycnical thought that perhaps the Province decided to address in injustice of apartment dwellers having cheaper electrical heat versus greedy rich bourgeoisie home owners having economical gas, by simply raising the NG rate to some higher leve l to 'soak them rich folk."
(Grr, that sounds bitter, but I just heard a sound bite from one of our alleged legislative leaders whining that reducing property taxes unfairly benefits "the rich" as poor folk live in apartments or rent houses--like the property tax is not in the rent, sheesh!)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"There's a tricky slope in the comparison--how many btu re kwh versus btu per therm."I just used a nominal value for the gas energy and I think I look at both 80 & 90% eff.
used a nominal value for the gas energy
Sorry if I sounded pedantic at all, I had to defend all of the energy efficiency modeling calculus I created taking some grad school courses. Especially given the under-sophisticated programming environments available, the professors wanted to see only single variable comparisons. Which meant having to tabulate lots o' stuff. (Boy o boy, did I hate having to cipher "K" values for air turbulence in brownian versus fan-driven air--all just for a single stinkin assignment; not like a semester-long project.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The local gas & electric company has a good basic comparison page:
http://www.lgeenergy.com/rsc/lge/res_heating_costs.asp
Sorry in advance if the link doesn't work - first time I've tried to post one.
Lew
Brent,
I'm no HVAC pro but I know that in a cold climate, Minnesota, like Montreal, heating with electric baseboard is not a good solution. I'm sure it looks good to the landlord because it is the cheapest to install, but it is the most expensive to run. Natural gas would be much more affordable to operate.
Contact your gas utility. I found that moving supply lines are usually a few hundred dollars. You would save that over one winter of heat bills.
Hammer,
That's an option I'll be looking at also. The thing is that the furnace that's there now is 25 years old and the manufacturer is out of business. It's been repaired with bailing wire and duct tape a few times now ( not literally ).It's also a large beast that takes up way to much room. So, the furnace is going, one way or the other.
What I need are some sites to go to to learn a bit about this and the different types of furnaces I can replace it with.
Thanks,
Brent
Edited 7/5/2005 4:06 pm ET by brent
Edited 7/5/2005 4:06 pm ET by brent
http://www.hvac-talk.com/
where the HVAC pro's hang out - good luck!
First of all, you have a boiler, not a furnace. Go to heatinghelp.com and start looking around. Good place to start. What make of boiler do you have now?
Wrudiger and Rich,
Thanks for the links. That's exactly what I need to get me started, you have to know what you don't know before you can learn about something.
Rich, thanks for setting me straight. I've been searching furnaces and that's why I haven't been able to find the info I needed.
Thanks Guys,
Brent
As one pointed out, you are looking for a boiler, not a furnace. Down here in the States, most boiler manufacturers offer electric versions, Weil McLain, for instance, makes the PER series (51 to 85 mbh), the CER series (82 to 137 mbh) and the CE seriers (164 to 437 mbh). MBH equals 1000/btu per hour. 1000 watts equals 3413 btu per hour.
As with any heating or cooling equipment, to meet the needs of the installation, it needs to be sized properly, by someone qualified to do so.
Should you chose to retain your hydronic heat, you will need in addition to a heat source (boiler) you will need (at a minimum) a circulator, air separator, expansion tank, fill/pressure reducing valve, some controls and new piping to connect the existing terminal units (radiators, baseboards) to the new heating sysytem.
A cost anaylsis based on the cost of the various fuels and installation should be performed based on the local market to determine which fuel is the best source. In mostly heating regions, electric heat is seldom the most economical to use. It IS the most econimical to install, which is why the landlord wants to do that.
I would recommend that you solicit bids from local contractors that are experienced in these issues and compare the costs. Hvae them quote the job with an electric boiler, a natural draft boiler and a condesing boiler.
The utility companies should be able to assist in the energy cost evaluation.
Since you are in Quebec, I would call Quebec Hydro and ask them. I'm sure they will be able to point you in the right direction. They are the primary electric utility in Quebec, aren't they? I believe it is probably worth a try.