I hope someone out here has experience with this. I have just constructed a coffered ceiling in a city row home we are in the process of remodeling, and I need to light it up. This is a very high end home in a high end area of the city, and as such I wanted to do something different.
The challenge is, of course you want the lighting centrally mounted in the center of the squares, however I have a lot of the old original joists that are running center, or nearly dead center almost the entire way down. So almost any type of lighting with a can higher then 3″ is out, and even 3″ may be out in some areas.
My idea, and the electricians idea was to give fiber optic lighting a try, however I cannot find anything that would work for this application without having many illuminators. I want only 2 one for the dining zone and one for the living zone.
Is there anyone out there that can give m a hand or an idea with this? The ceiling has 42 boxes each about 6″ square (except where they are built around areas on the wall that protrude into the room).
Thanks ahead!
Replies
my kneejerk reaction coming from a crumugeon ( or elitist pig take your pick ) is you don't want no stinking recessed lamps in your coffered ceiling
check out Brass Light Gallery / Miwaukee or Rejuvenation Lighting / Portland, Or. for some chandeliers and or wall sconces
my compromise is hiding low voltage / halogens behind coffers to illuminate artwork on the walls
Got any pictures?
fka (formerly known as) blue
Frankly, I'd think you'd have wanted to work this out before doing the ceiling.
John:
Thats not a bad idea, havent much thought of that. THat may b an option. I usually dont like having hanging fixtures in the houses I do however.
Jim:
Of course I will add links.
Dan:
Well, I am not an electrician, and I know no matter what, it will be figured out. So no, I didnt take a lot of thought into how I could drop the ceiling to accommodate fixtures. I wanted 9'+ ceilings, so dropping wasn't much of an option.
Are you planning on installing any crown up in those coffers? If so you can hide rope lighting above the crown. Leave the crown low by a few inches and install the rope lighting above.
You can also install cans in the lower part of the beam. Done that a number of times and looks OK.
Doug
While I agree with the sentiment no recessed cans in the coffers - earlier in my career I was a purist and insisted on no lights (cans or ceiling mounts) in my coffers and it doesn't work - you wind up with poorly lit rooms for the sake of purity. I personally perfer ceiling mounts to recessed cans and given the pictures I looked at, and the number of coffers you have I would say you definitely do not want lights in all the coffers - just finished laying out one for a house I'm doing last week and we did the four corners and two in the center for general purpose and one to light the fireplace. Perhaps that might work for you - I do like the idea of rope lighting - but please see my comments below - don't think you want to rope light all those coffers.
If I might - it looks like cherry ply so I am assuming it'a a staingrade room - I would have to vote that you have way to many coffers - sometimes less is more. You will not be able to appreciate the coffers - don't mean to be a critic.
Devin
Doug:Yes, there will be crown installed in the coffers, however there is not enough room to go through all the trouble of installing rope for a little effect, and as you said, I think that may be too much. If it was smaller, I certainly would, I think it looks slick.Devin:I agree, I don't think I want a light in every coffer. I was only considering it if I go the fiber optic route because I don't think they are nearly as bright as a regular bulb, and the fixtures are TINY so it would hardly be noticeable but give a nice glow to the room. Still trying to fid a way to do this.This is my first ever coffer ceiling. I had very little time to research so I did the best I could. It doesn't look nearly as busy in person, i think once the tops are in and the bottoms capped it will not look nearly as busy. Its paint grade cabinet ply, so it will *cough* get painted *cough*. Being it was my first time I didn't want to use the good stuff =). BTW, I always welcome a critique. I think I have way too many crazy ceilings in this house, got a bit wrapped up o the moment =), barrel vaults, domes, elliptical domes, etc.Piffin:Thats an interesting idea, look up color kinetic icolor tiles. now THAT would be slick!
I didn't mean to be to critical. Sorry if I did. I saw a coffered ceiling in fine homebuilding that I liked and will probably put in our remodeled kitchen. It is shallow and painted with contrasting colors to accentuate it. We'll see when we get into the design of it. I agree with you that all the interesting rooms I see in mags have something going on with the ceiling.
No problem! I didn't take it as such.You have some really nice ceilings there Doug!
I have never seen a coffered ceil with lights in it. Has always been traditional styled rooms with sconce on pillasters around the room.
If I was trying to do it, I would probably design it so the ceiling iself was the light.. The flat between coffer beams would be made of a diffuser the texture and opacity of alabaster. What the actuall light behind that was would depend on whether this is intended as area lighting or mood/decorative lighting.
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I have never seen a coffered ceil with lights in it. Has always been traditional styled rooms with sconce on pillasters around the room
Thats odd! I have never worked on or saw(in person) a coffered ceiling without lights!
I've done 14 coffered ceilings in the last 6 or 7 years and everyone has lights in it. Must be a regional thing, Or we like to see what were doing!
Doug
Doug
Doug, that theater ceiling, is that rope light?
I'd call it rope lighting but it really isnt! It is some sort of metal strips that have these tiny little light bulbs. Man I wish I could tell you more but I really dont know what the electrician called them.
I do know that it wasnt the traditional flexable rope lights that I think of as rope lighting.
Doug
I think I know what it is. It takes 12V automotive bulbs, like the bulb in the dome light of a car.
Thanks.
That sounds like the light bulb. I assume because these people wanted nothing but the best in material that that kind of light is better then your typical rope lighting.
Doug
Doug,Was the theater lighting similar to Clikstrip?
http://www.ardeelighting.com/page.php?id=clikstripBeautiful craftsmanship from you as usual.Best,
Steve
http://www.ardeelighting.com/subpage.php?id=clikstrip_pr
these would be similar but they are not exactly them.
Doug
Now that you made me think about it - I have seen lighting like that in coffered ceilings in commercial locations.I still don't like it though.no reflection on your work of course.
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An important thing to consider is what do you need the lighting FOR. If there will be plenty of separate task lighting then you really just want some gentle area lighting that will highlight the ceiling. If this is to be the primary room lighting then you need more.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
This is about as traditional of a coffered ceiling as you'll see and there are lights hanging from the ceiling. The rope lighting obviously is not tradition but you don't see that unless the room is dark.
View Image
I've seen many pictures of coffered ceilings from the late 1800's and early 1900's and lights hanging from the ceiling are as common as the wood itself.
I cant imagine not having ceiling lights. Why would you not want them in the ceiling, certainly not because there is wood up there? No ceiling lights reminds me of those cheap 1970 ranch houses where they cheaped out and switched a receptacle.
Doug
Edited 10/24/2007 9:29 pm ET by DougU
I don't see anything wrong with hanging ceiling fixtures either as long as they are well thought out. Perhaps one of the coffers could be designated as a base for a fixture, thus enhancing that spot in some way. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and I'm interested in seeing the finished product. It was looking fantastic to me, but so has everything else everyone posted.fka (formerly known as) blue
I like the hanging like what Jeff showed in his second and you have here. They are traditional.It is what you get used to I suppose. But for thousands of years the coffered ceilings had no little holes in them with light coming out. They had lamps set on the pillasters at the sides of the room, and those an light a room quite well unill it gets larger than 20' or so
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But for thousands of years the coffered ceilings had no little holes in them with light coming out
that's because they didn't have can lights, or rope lighting for that matter!
Two hundred years ago they didn't have circular saws but they do now so I'm going to use mine, if you chose to keep sawing with the old hand saw then that's your choice, I've moved into the 21st century. You should join us!
Tradition is tradition but remember, it was that way for a reason, sometimes those reasons were not choices. I've got a bathroom in my house too!
Now I'm just having some fun here but I don't follow tradition for the sake of tradition, there is usually a reason for the choices that were made and often times those choices were very limited. I've read extensively on why rooms are the size they are, why certain colors work in certain situations, why trim was used the way it was.............. This is all stuff that was worked out esthetically, spatially, .........lighting was also factored into their equation but their lighting choices were very limited, unlike those that we have at our disposal.
I think those people way back then would have installed lighting if they had it, they didn't, they had a damn torch, cant install one of those in a little hole in the ceiling without dire consequences!
Doug
Edited 10/25/2007 6:55 am ET by DougU
LOL, I knew I'd hear all that back.
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Exfitter:Thanks, I think there are some lights in that catalog I may end up using. I passed it on to my electrician to see what he thinks. There are some low voltage 20w fixtures in there that are only 3/4 - just over 1" high! I think we will put about 20 in there maybe on dimmers if need be. This will be the only light in these two rooms for 25' from the entrance of the house.DougU,Is that a room you did? That is spectacular!Edlee:Unfortunately there are some coffers where the beam runs dead through the center and is only about 2" above the top of the coffer panel. So I have extremely limited room for a lighting fixture so 4" is out.Thanks for the other suggestions guys. I am not as worried about the no light, or pilaster lights, or hanging lights as this is not a traditional house, its more contemporary with some traditional features.
Beware -- lots of the LV "puck" lights are carp. There are a few good quality ones floating about, but you have to be very picky, and they aren't cheap.Plus you'll have to bury a transformer or two somewhere.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah, I have used them in the past. The ones I am looking at are located here:http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/2007_Master/lg_display.cfm?page_number=566&catalog=070148They are pricey, but as long as they do what I need, I will be happy to pay, and get past this project =).
Is that a room you did? Yes, all the pix that I showed I (along with a few other guys) did the work.
Doug
Doug,
I'm doing a coffered ceiling in our library, and have fussed for quite some time as to how to finish it.
Its all walnut, solid wood for the moldings and veneer ply for the beams.The whole room is walnut shelving and cabinets, so the finish must be consistent throughout. How do you finish these things?
Stef
This is for your own house? You should know by now that it's never finished.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Dear God, don't I.
We poured the foundation in 97, moved in two year ago. Still don't have all the base and doors in.
I'm working in an office I finished this week. Well, except for the trim.
As close to anything we have to being finished.
Stef
Yeah, and pretty soon you're gonna have to repaint the outside, rework some of the deck, redo foundation plantings, and change around the laundry area to the way your wife has decided she really wants it.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah,
I still don't have the stain on the north side logs, and the south side needs recoating.
I think I'll go to Hawaii next winter so I don't have to watch this.
Stef
fatboy
so the finish must be consistent throughout
ON that library we sprayed the stain after everything was installed, one guy running the gun and two or three guys wiping down behind. Then we sprayed the intire place with three coats of lac. Its a real pain to do it in place but when your done it looks killer!
Doug
Doug
I agree that it looks pretty busy. Another thought on a coofered cieling is if they are more shallow you can use more without it looking to busy. I'm no expert.
I'm interested in seeing the finished product. It looks like a hard thing to frame for someone like me with A.D.D LOL!fka (formerly known as) blue
check out http://www.outwatercatalogs.com they should have something that will work.
If it is a traditional interior don't use cans (as mentioned) - use flush mounts from Rejuvenation .com. Here are examples of two appropriate fixtures: http://www.rejuvenation.com/fixshowC808/templates/selection.phtml?n=v&custom_code=h2je&&custom_code=h2je&newC808%5B10FINISH%5D=C808LQ and http://www.rejuvenation.com/fixshowC550/templates/selection.phtml?n=v&custom_code=iwjg&&custom_code=iwjg&newC550%5B10FINISH%5D=C550LQ
Jeff
Mane,
Last year I wired a coffered ceiling in a dining room with a pattern of 5" recessed cans and a chandelier in the center. Ceiling painted white. It came out very nice-looking with a lot of useful light.
Here are some 3" cans by WAC. Click on this link and the look at the HR-800 link. These housings are 4" high....subtract 1/2" for drywall and you'd need 3-1/2" veritcal. Could that work for you?
They're 12v so you'd need a remote transformer and then LV wiring in the ceiling. 35wMR16 is a bright bulb available in various widths of flood and spot, your choice depending on how high the ceiling is and how many you used.
http://www.waclighting.com/USA/products/?categoryid=124
Here's their linear system. The SBH-102 for example has a very low profile http://www.waclighting.com/USA/products/?categoryid=228
These thing are unusual, and have a 2-7/8" deep housing, never used them and have no idea if they'd be useful: http://www.waclighting.com/USA/products/?categoryid=105
Ed
mane 3215
crystal chandlers are clearly called for .. they compliment coffered ceilings helping to draw the eye up to look at them.. lacking that wall sconces will do the same thing..
With coffered ceilings don't go modern or contemporary even if the rest of the house is..
the ceiling will always be in conflict.
Do not become a slave to a single style.. an eclectic apporach to styles creates an interest that little else will.. Done well even if it's not appreciated it will not be seen in a negative maner this is a room you want to be dold in.. make a real statement in.. carefully define..
You went to all the effort to do a coffered ceiling! Maximise it! Focus attention on it! feature it..
PS go on the web for good prices on Crystal, do not buy locally!
I doubt he has the height to go with a chandelier.
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I can't say, never seen him. Maybe vertical stripes would help.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Actually, though, I think the best style might be a flush or semi-flush something like this:
View Image
Quite a few styles to pick from in that general category.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I'm doing a coffered ceiling and asked Doug how he finished his-stain, sprayed lacquer. you are a proponent of shellac, I know. Mine is walnut and I want a more reddish tone than the usual warm brown of walnut. Would you spray shellac, and what do you think of Garnet shellac?
Stef
fatboy2
I always spray ceilings and such when I do shellac.. it's fine, no worries about runs etc.. when you spray if you overthin the shellac. (use two gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of Bullseye shellac.
I've used garnet but didn't like it it made the wood too dark (in my humble opinion) three coats of shellac seem to be just about right to make the black walnut just pop.
Since you like a redder shellac maybe you could try the first coat with the blonde then sand the nubs off it, spray the second coat with garnet and based on that decide if you want the third coat blonde or garnet..
Fatboy
You can tint shellac if you cant find the shade your looking for in the garnet, blond, ..........
Doug
Frenchy and Doug
Thanks a bunch. Doug, what stain did you use, and what type stain would you add to shellac? Brand Name?
Stef
Fatboy2
stain then shellac.. I don't like to mix them.. (I differ from doug in that regard) You can buy Garnett flakes (brand doesn't make any differance) an add them to the blonde if you want a darker colored shellac, just remember to add more denatured alcohol. test to see if you like the resulting color first..
Black walnut really pops dark with a few coats of shellac. if you use garnett or any other darker flake you will lose someof the wonderful color that makes up black wanut. The purples, yellow, and gold will all be pretty much wiped out..
Edited 10/30/2007 3:41 pm ET by frenchy
Stef
On all the work that I've posted on this thread the finish is laq. Catalyzed at that.
I've tinted shellac a lot of different colors. I use an alcohol based tint, mixes well with the shellac seeings how the shellac is diluted with alcohol.
I cant come up with the brand of tints but look in any of the woodworking mags(woodcrafters comes to mind) that sell finish products, they should have some alcohol based stains. The stain will mix with the shellac, it comes in powdered form.
I'm with Frenchy in that if I can get the desired color using just garnet, orange, blond, ......then I will but sometimes I cant. Its also more preferable to shellac, stain and then reshellac rather then tint the shellac but there is no reason that you cant tint either. I believe that you'll get a better depth using the layered method.
You might try looking over at john Bridges for more info on finishes, I'm nothing more then a hack at the finish end of things.
EDIT: What I meant to say was http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/ instead of John Bridges.
Doug
Edited 10/30/2007 11:13 pm ET by DougU
Edited 11/4/2007 9:08 pm ET by DougU
Doug and Frenchy,
You've been quite helpful, I think I'll have to experiment on scrap to find the right mix.
I do appreciate your help!
Stef
You might try looking over at john Bridges for more info on finishes, I'm nothing more then a hack at the finish end of things.
E...r, Doug, you mean knots? I know what those guys would say, if you want shellac it has to be hand rubbed.
So... fatboy will never finish his library.
Edited 11/3/2007 10:43 pm ET by TomC
Ooooo, my bad!
I meant http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/
Dont know what the hell I was thinking?
Better go back and edit
Doug
Just read everything for the first time and I might have seen something that we are considering for a travel trailer rebuild.
LED lights are finally coming of age as the prices keep droping and many of the short comings are being overcome. Check out the latest lines of LED lights and there will surely be something you can use.
The way I understand LED's is you need high output LED's (now they are large enough to be measured in watts with 5 watt solo LED's running about $8 or $25 in a 2"x2"x1/4" "puck light"), either bright white or warm white, a light cone to match the application (say 150 degree lumination for overhead lights or side emitting LED's to light up the sides of your coffers, and a system that provides power for enough of the lights you want to use.
There are also 7 watt LED's in either side emitting, wide focus lens or narrow focus lens, but the fine print from the company actually manufacturing them says they are not for continous use, but more suitable for something like flashlights or portable lanters.
Finally an under cabinet light that's only 1/4" thick! It takes a bunch of them to equal the higher output lights we're getting used to, but at least they are there.
Best of luck and nice looking project.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If you want to try fiber optics, then you ought to talk to folks to light museums and art galleries. They use a lot of fiber optics and the better designers know a lot of tricks which often don't filter down to other commercial or residential planners or sales persons. Good luck.