Hey guys. I’m in the Houston area and have been looking into starting a career in carpentry, maybe towards finish work or cabinetry. I have a little experience with building, and have always been good with it. Any recommendations on how to get started in this industry? Schooling or apprenticing? Best job market? Anyone out their looking for an apprentice?? Thank.
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the first step to cabinet work is sweeping sawdust
married ? single ?
how old ? how much experience ?
can you move to Asheville, NC ?
<can you move to Asheville, NC ?>What's the matter with RI?http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
I was wondering the same thing .
You wanna be an apprentice, eh? Hmmm....You any good at scraping three coats of mystery paint off cedar ranch siding in the rain? I need another guy yesterday.
I hope ya like working up high. And bring yer foul weather gear. Only had two sunny days in the last 20....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Contact the local carpenter union about apprenticeship program. Some years they may not take any new apprentice and you are probably too late for this years class.
Go to trade school.
Check out job sites and ask for employment. Keep going back to the same ones until you give or they give.
Take tools with you in case they say yes. At least a tool belt, hammer, tape measure, utility knife, and pencil.
Wear the tools even if you are digging a ditch. Be prepared to grunt and run starting out
I hope that you have some other options, if carpentry doesn't pan out the way you imagine, because it probably won't.
Even when the economy is moving, it's a tough way to earn a living. Often dangerous too.
Only a small percentage of the most skilled, solid and determined guys ever make a real success of it, over the long haul. The rest of us just make a living, hand to mouth. And many of us are forced to leave the trade before retirement, due to injuries and, more often, lower back problems.
I've been nursing sciatica for the last thirty years. Ain't fun and it limits what I can do away from work too. That's a very common problem for older carpenters.
When you work for wages you must produce quantity and quality like clockwork, every day. When you work as a sub-contractor you must do the same and manage a business well too. Plenty of pressure to produce...on schedule...either way.
Most guys who are attracted to carpentry and woodworking would be better served to make it a hobby, not a career.
Looking back, I wish that I'd worked a couple years at the trade in my younger days, to learn enough to build my own home, then moved on to something which paid better and had more security.
For the past few years I've been advising younger guys to get trained as an HVAC service technician. Air conditioning is a very lucrative business and the technicians make very good money, particularly those who live and work in the South West. Houston fits right in there.
Service work is always more financially secure than building new or remodeling.
Adult vocational schools have courses which can be taken full time or part time at night.
Edited 7/13/2009 8:23 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I agree with most of what you say and I agree with the overall gist of your counsel.
I stayed in carpentry for a very long time because it was a labor of love for me. I also thought I could make a great income from it, in business, and have been self employed since the early eighties. It was certainly a roller coaster ride....the ups and downs are significant and it wasn't easy to survive, much less prosper.
The problem for me was deciding whether I was going to be a business person or a carpenter. Carpenters don't make very good businessmen...usually. And, it's safe to say that business men don't normally make good carpenters. Each of these walks in life are distinctly different paths and each takes an enormous amount of effort and dedication in entirely different ways.
I wouldn't want to steer anyone away from their labor of love, but I would advise them to choose their financial path, in that particular trade, wisely. I loved framing custom homes but looking back, I can clearly see that I was putting myself at a distinct disadvantage, as a business, when I chose that path.
I'm sure there are some framers that are making a lot of money, but the only ones I know that "made a lot of money" weren't working with the tools. That pretty much sums it up: if your main tool is a nail gun and saw, you probably won't be wealthy from framing. If your main tool is a pencil and calculator and you sell framing, you have a chance at being wealthy.
I wouldn't want to steer anyone away from their labor of love, but I would advise them to choose their financial path, in that particular trade, wisely.
Agreed. But of course all of us in carpentry are forced to alter our primary course from time to time, due to economic necessity.
Some of us join the union, where wood is only seen on concrete form jobs and the pressure for production is constant. Lousy conditions, good pay.
I wouldn't choose union carpentry as a career path but I had to accept it as a stop gap measure when other work was non-existent. Even then, I had to do some minor slight of hand, just to get back into my local.
Many of us take on a related specialty to make ends meet and end up making a career out of it. Roofing comes to mind. Drywall. There are a lot of guys working in those fields who only wanted to work with wood to begin with, build some nice homes.
I humped enough drywall to know that it's more like a jail sentence than anything else.
During one slow economic period I installed swimming pools, every summer for about six years. Good challenge and decent money but very hard work, long hours, six days a week. It was not how I wanted to enjoy the nicest season of the year in my area.
Most of us are forced to travel to make a living at some time. Whether it's a long daily commute into a city or a winter trip to Florida, it's still a serious digression.
Three carpenters from my small town spent a couple of years commuting to lower Manhattan to work, when times were very tough. Two hours or more each way gets old real quick, particularly when it involves city traffic for part of the ride.
I traveled twice in the winters, to work in warmer climates and make ends meet. I enjoyed the warm weather work but spending money for rent on top of my mortgage payment meant that I returned north with almost nothing saved.
So...between all those necessary digressions, I seldom did the kind of work I had in mind when I chose carpentry in my mid-twenties. I did build some nice homes but that only amounted to about one third of my time in the trade, maybe less. And only about one third of those were my own designs.
That's a personal history which fits a lot of carpenters.
Edited 7/14/2009 11:50 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I was lucky in my union apprenticeship. I worked on a couple houses and lots of apartment buildings. Several good old guys willing to teach and show me thier tricks of the trade.
Funny thing, my first job in the union was wood framed housing at West Point. I thought I'd found my place in the trade. Later I discovered that job was very unusual in our territory, and at West Point.
I did learn some excellent framing techniques on that job, from a couple of guys who had been framing since high school. Too bad that was the end of it for our local.
The union can't compete with non-union builders so their only remedy is to reduce the hourly wage for house work. Our local's members never could agree to do that so we never had a contract for house work. Only Heavy and Highway; all commercial work and concrete forms.
None of that is rewarding to a woodworker.
Edited 7/16/2009 4:45 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I quit the union in 1987. They do have a reduced rate for housing here which includes apartment buildings up to two stories.
For the past few years I've been advising younger guys to get trained as an HVAC service technician. Air conditioning is a very lucrative business and the technicians make very good money, particularly those who live and work in the South West. Houston fits right in there.
Service work is always more financially secure than building new or remodeling.
I might agree with most of that if the air conditioning work was in the commercial end or commercial refrigeration.
I would disagree if the air conditioning work was in the residential end of the spectrum, where it is lucrative more for the business owner than the guy in the trenches (or attic).
I would disagree if the air conditioning work was in the residential end of the spectrum, where it is lucrative more for the business owner than the guy in the trenches (or attic).
The OP lives in Houston, where there is a lot of residential AC work which pays rather well. That's true of the entire South West.
I know this because I did a survey of wages in the Los Angeles area, including an old friend who owns a well established AC business here.
I also spoke with an instructor at the local adult education center, the HVAC union, and two other contractors. The adult ed center works closely with AC contractors who depend on that resource for new hires.
The base pay for an AC service technician in L.A., right out of school, is $60K-$70K per year, with about three months off during the winter.
What winter would that be?
The time of year when the AC is dormant in SoCal.
Winter in SoCal offers pretty good skiing in the local mountains, most years. All the ski areas have snow making equipment too.
The local mountains are part of the Sierra range, altitudes up to 8K feet. On a clear day, up on the ridge, you can see the Pacific Ocean out to Catalina Island on one side and the Mohave Desert on the other.
That high desert between Needles and LA gets pretty cool in the summer.
I try to stay out of Calif. Been there one time at 16, and several times in a Big Truck, hauling textiles out and fruit back.
Edited 7/20/2009 10:44 am ET by catfish
it depends on your area. we have an HVAC school that turn out 100tech every 90 days, the average pay here is $11 and that with five year exprience. we have mucho tech working out of pickups on residental. so that why I always say find somebody been in business thirty years with thirty trucks. the other wont be around. Alot of havc are partner their selve with electrical and plumbers so to turn key jobs.
Yea, supply and demand and the cost of living too. One bedroom apt here is $800+/mo and utilities. So first and last months' rent plus one month security means $2500+ just to move in and get the power turned on.
Still, if I had finished AC tech school, I'd check for jobs in the South West on the net, then make some calls.
How many hours must one work to earn that $60k - $70k per year?
I can say that there is little likliehood that a non-union residential HVAC shop in Texas is paying $40 an hour.... pretty lucky to get $30 an hour in the Chicago area on the non-union residential side.
Of course, maybe I should move...
How many hours must one work to earn that $60k - $70k per year?
I expect that includes a lot of OT, during peak season. You'll have to check the L.A. yellow pages and make some calls, if you want the straight scoop.
Remember, that's starting pay. I've was told that, as knowledge and experience are acquired, a good service tech can easily make $100K and more in wages, after a few years. That came from everyone I talked to in the business.
<maybe towards finish work or cabinetry>
get on with a cabinet shop as an installer's assistant. If that turns out well they'll start throwing you little install jobs after a while.
Actually, the cab shops I know about mostly subcontract the installation, so you might need to hunt up one of the installation contractors and get on directly with him, which would also give you better chances at making an apprenticeship link.
Don't know what the apprenticeship procedures are in Texas, though.
j
I learned cause my dad was a carpenter but when young i worked for old carpenters, Then i went on a framing crew, I worked Union as a carpenter but went to work for myself, It was always hard getting enough work, I went to own a roofing bisness, Though hard i think after awhile there will be a demand for carpenters but im worried when i see Mexican crews in everything. I was never hurt bad and my back held up but whats the odds a guy can put in many years like that, So go for it but keep another option at all times, I should have had a back up plan in place. On the other hand i had some very good years.
A lot of negative. No wonder nobody wants to be a carpenter.
Try to learn and be a good carpenter.
Hard way to make a living but I am not sorry I am a carpenter.
Reality is not negativity.
Being a "good" carpenter only assures survival. Anything less than "good" carpenters are usually well below the poverty line most of their careers.
This seems like a great time to post a few items that I just recently ran across when I was sorting junk.
One pic shows my Journeyman cert from 1980. I studied hard and was a student of the trade. I had great mentors. Everyone (7 guys) on the crew I started with had already graduated from the Union carpenter school or were in the school as apprentices (2). We did good work and it still didn't help me overall as a career choice.
Notice the wage scale on one of those pics. That wage scale was about where I started in the union in 1977. I think there was wage freezes on at the time because of Jimmy CArter politics.
Those wages were very close to mine. I also started in 77. In 1987 when I quit the union, the journeyman wage was $18.65
My journeyman certificate is the exact same as your picture.
Sounds negative to me. I am still a hourly wage employee and never was sorry I became a good carpenter.
Wow, $18.65? That's about what our top guys get now, 22 years later. Not union, but still....
I was thinking the same thing. That seems really good translate that into todays dollars and I would feel like I'm doing pretty dam good. According to the inflation calculator thats 35 an hour today. Ill take it.
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
Don't know for sure but I think they are around 32.
Mike, that was the point of posting that wage card.
When I started in the trade, one of the reasons I wanted to be a carpenter was because it was a skilled trade. I could make more money as a skilled tradesman and I wanted that "better" life for me and my family. At that time I was choosing between the carpenters life and a job with Chrysler in the factory. I chose carpentry BECAUSE IT PAID MORE! I also didn't want to work in the same factory every day for the next 30 years.
30 years later, my buddy, who chose the factory, retired with more than a half million in his pension and many other perks. He also made significantly more money than I did every year he worked.
I'm not complaining and I'm not being negative. I'm simply pointing out the facts. Staying in Carpentry, always was a labor of love for me. I knew in the 90's that I was sacrificing a lot, financially speaking, to stay in the framing "business", wearing the tools. Carpentry simply is not a vehichle to make much money, unless you specialize and fill a niche market of some sort.
I find it hugely ironic that I could hire a carpenter apprentice today, for less than I was paid in 1979.
I find it hugely ironic that I could hire a carpenter apprentice today, for less than I was paid in 1979.
That may be true if you just look at the numbers, but if you figure out what your 1979 wage is equivalent to in even 2007 dollars, you will be surprised.
Your $18 an hour 1979 wage is probably equal to over $40 an hour today.
the typical carpenter here, nails 2x together. maybe $11 hour tops. the high dollar carps are the form carps. maybe $13
To add a more optimistic and spiritual point of view, I offer the words of Honore de Balzac:
"The vocations which we wanted to pursue, but didn't, bleed, like colors, on the whole of our existence."
Yea we were highest paid in Indiana, but Chicago was even more than that.
MC,
Only have a few minutes because I'm on my way to a meeting...........yeah, most of my tools hang in the garage these days.
A few questions. How old are? Married yet?
I'm sure you've read some pretty negative responses by now. Almost all of them are true to life.
But we all know that our reality is what we make it.
Were it me to do all over again? I would spend my younger working days learning everything I could from the best person at that individual task who would give me the time of day. Meaning? I would go out and make a list of the best guys in my area doing what it was I wanted to do.................and pester them until one hired me.
And I would spend my evenings learning about the fundamentals like Geometry. I'm sure your local community college has some construction related courses at night. I'd learn some business too.
http://WWW.JLCONLINE.com is also a pretty good resource......although some of the guys there are full of themselves..........and bu*&^it too.
I would strongly caution against taking legal or accounting advice from here or there without also consulting local legal or accounting professionals.
Make friends with a good insurance agent too.
But before you do any of that.............I suggest you sit down and take a long hard look at your own life, your expecations and needs...........and see how they fit with the realities of life as a tradesman.
A lot of guys here are down on the trades right now............but that doesn;t mean they are wrong. A lot of what they are telling you is nothing more than reality.
After it's all said and done.................don't get discouraged if the first job doesn't work out............not everyone who is a good tradesman is a good
I have to say, I have been a carpenter for a while.While I don't make a ton of money, if I am frugal I can live a decent and fair life.I enjoy my work, I don't get too stressed while I am working, I get exercise while I am working.
I don't work at in an office and I can look back at the end of each day and see the results of the past 8 hours.I enjoy my work and feel like it is fairly rewarding.Of course there are those days...............
I always enjoyed the work. I still enjoy that kind of work.
But as you've said yourself..........you are relatively frugal.
In most of the country, life has passed the typical employee carpenter by. Sure some still find solid employment with a good company that treats them right. But for every one of them there is a line of ten other carpenters who didn't. Guys who worked for that guy who took out taxes but never paid them in. guys who never paid their workers comp insurance, ect, ect.
And there are ton of guys, even some here, who work for themselves and will never make more than $50K a year.
It often leaves to wonder why anyone would bother.but then we come back to the love of work thing.
And if you can love your work and make life enjoyable within what it provides? That has to be the best feeling in the world....................it alos means you're not married to my wife or supporting my kids.
Probably the best work days of my life were spent on a framing crew. There's a lot to be said for that.
For cabinetry, there are a number of schools that offer programs. Some are world class if you fancy yourself talented enough to make it. Here's one of the best. http://www.nbss.org/home/index_flash.asp
Hey m crosby,
I don't usually say much but I think this thread needs a bit of balance...
I've been thinking a lot about my life as a carpenter lately...nice to have something in common with Jesus-lol
I started in 1970 as a carpenter's helper...same year I graduated from high school and my first child was born...she's 39 now...I'm 57.
I was struggling to make a living-my then wife said-why don't you become a carpenter. At least I got 1 good thing out of that marriage-(grin)
I went on to serve a carpentry apprenticeship and spent years in the trade doing everything from building custom houses to timber framing
and everything in between. Love working outside in the summer...and I hate working in an office so it was a good fit. Lots of hard physical work but some folks thrive on that-lots of shared comradarie too
The difference between framing and finishing is how close to a line you can you really cut...and how well. I was a natural at finish carpentry and ending up working in cabinet shops- building and installing custom cabinets, and became a cabinet maker after serving an apprenticeship.
After working for lots of different shops and contractors, I started my own business in 1989 and unwittingly served a business apprenticeship for the next several years.
I also taught woodworking and cabinet making at night for 16 years at our local community college which gave me a lot of satisfaction and fun and helped to pay the bills.
Fast forward to 2009-I'm riding around with my wife and I'm saying- I shoulda been a postie, I shoulda been a teacher...
fact is- after 30 years of marriage we're still together and... happy. She works in the business with me-as I like to say-she's the talented one. She designs and finishes our projects and we have done everything from custom homes including our own that our family built, to walnut burl conference tables and cabinets with vacuum bagged veneer, to furniture refinishing to my speciality- interior handrails.
We make a decent living, work our own hours, were able to homeschool our kids and help our kids achieve the passions of their lives.
Tonight I will be happy to get into bed beside her...tomorrow morning I will have coffee, go for a beautiful walk in the country where we live and then go out to my shop and finish some cabinets I've been working on.
We had time and the knowledge to design and build barns for our daughter's horses, put up 4 generations of horse fences, work on their horse trailer and truck, work with them which for me is probably about as fun as it gets.
Seeing your daughter up on a ladder backing out toe screws one handed is quite a thrill...or your son humping wheelbarrows of concrete for your own footings...or helping you on a hardwood floor...some of our best times our working together!
For us it's a lifestyle...in my more grandious moments , I'll say I'm a carpentry and woodworking enterpreneur...other times I'll say-if it's wood I can build it, repair it, restore it, finish it...
My grandfather was a painter-old style with a white painters hat that said benjamin moore. Not hard to see him in his paint splattered white overalls with a stub of a king edward's cigar in his mouth...beaming at a job he just finished...never said much to me but-he'd say...Philip, I love my work.
I never forgot that...and I've been through lots, hell at times...I remember once going out to the shop and smashing a wood tool box.
But fact is I love what we do...I love the freedom of not having to work 8 to 5 for the man...I love that what profit I make on a job is mine...I love that we do a very good job, that I strive for excellence and my customers appreciate what my company does for them...that everyday I have to work at the top of my game...
anyhoo sorry for the rant...but for some folks it is the right road to travel and as someone said- we make our own bed.
I'm 57, healthy as a horse and although I'm working on plan b, c and d
I know I can make plan a work for a good many years.
the advice I give young folks-
do something you love-you're gonna do it for a long time
develop plan b,cdefghijklm...
read the 4 hour workweek
get education-lots of it-night school, an apprenticeship
this ain't no dress rehearsal-we get one chance at life-go for the gusto!
cheers,
silver
Well said.
"Well said."that's good to know-don't usually talk about myself but I sure remember what it was like to be a keen and green young feller... silver
So much for sharing the trials and tribulations of life in the building trades with a newbie. He ain't been back since he posted his question, three days ago.
yeah... but we had a heck of a good timeMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yea we did.
Hey, maybe the simple act of posting the question brought him to his senses.
ROFLMAO
Maybe he got a lead carpenter job somewhere.
I think he got a job in Rhode Island<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Go to your local Carpenters Union and ask when they recruit or if you could sign up. It's hard work with the unions and they expect a lot from you all day. But they will provide you with classes that are dirt cheap. it might take a while to get work in this eceonomy, but you'll eventually get off the bench. You'll find out if you really want to be a carpenter after you work in the union. Good luck Buddy.
if your young enough did you ever think of the military as a carpenter ?
That's an interesting perspective. How does the construction industry receive ex-military carpenters (ie the SeaBees). Favorably? or not because military-type construction is too far removed from typical home or commercial construction?Just curious....
Kevin
I always preferred those with military service because I knew they had been trained to get out of bed in the morning. Anyone can be taught carpentry, if they already know how to show up and work.
my lead man is a seabee... started working for me right after the service at 21Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Best advice.......go back to school. Get your Construction Management degree and go to work for a large commericial outfit that will pay you a ton of money....and then remember the guy that gave this great advice and write him a thank you note!
I think we finally agree on something.