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Discussion Forum

Need Help With PT Deck ReHab

madmadscientist | Posted in Construction Techniques on April 27, 2012 05:58am

Alright, while we are waiting the 3-4 weeks for our kitchen cabinets and exhaust hood we need to focus on getting the deck up to snuff…and when I say up to snuff I mean untrucking all the wacky stuff the PO did and bringing it up to modern code. From what we can tell the deck was built around 5 years ago, which means its built with the extra nasty PT wood.

What I think that mostly means is;

Adding risers to the stairs.

Changing out ALL the non-PT rated hardware, bolts, washers, screws, nails, joist hangers…etc…hurray!

Adding code compliant hand rails to the stairs.

 

Here’s how the deck looks from afar.

View Image

Pretty big and impressive isn’t it?

Now, lets look a little closer…help me figure out what needs to be replaced and how?

 

First there are no risers to either run of stairs.

View Image

This run has 6 1/8″ clear between the treads.

 

View Image

This run has 6″ clear between the treads.

 

I need to put in a riser that passes the 4″ sphere rule.

Does anybody have any opinions on the best way to do that?

I think a single PT 2by4 would work and pass the 4″ rule and allow some light to pass through.

I’m sorta thinking if it was centered in the opening it would be best.

I have PT rated pocket screws. Would two in each end and into the beefy 4by12 carriage be a strong beefy connection?

 

It also looks like I’ll have to replace all the treads in the lower section that are not PT as they are showing signs of rotting…

View Image

 

Speaking of Stairs.

The PO used some sort of bracket that is not a Simpson Bracket and I don’t know anything about it.

 

Unknown stair bracket.

View Image

 

View Image

The bracket itself doesn’t appear to be rusting but those bolts sure do…and I believe you have to fill every single hole with these brackets.

 

Nails

The PO really, really, liked nails…

View Image

 

View Image

None of these nails should be rusting if they are of the correct type right?

So, I think I have to replace every single (if its actually doing anything useful) rusting out nail with something else.

I’d like to replace them all with PT rated structural screws from McFeelys, does that sound reasonable?

 

Corroded Structural Bolts

Notice how rusted the washers are. The bolts don’t look so bad but I haven’t backed one out yet to see…I’m afraid too..

View Image

 

View Image

Look at all the rusting out nails holding this stuff together. Are they even required with the bolts in place? Seems to me that the nails are mostly just chewing up the wood.

View Image

 

Whats a PT rated joist hanger?

View Image

 

Or hanger nail?

View Image

None, of the fricken joist hangers are PT rated…just standard hangers and they are starting to rot pretty well, some are actually green and fuzzy from corrosion…It also bugs me a bit that they use hangers for 2by6’s on 2by8’s and 10’s.

 

Questions: (remember that this is a one man operation)

Is everything that is rusting after 5 years need to be replaced? IE, the correct hardware would not be doing this right?

What’s the best way to remove and replace the joist hangers? I’ve got slightly over 50 to do!

What’s everybody think of my idea to remove the rusting out nails and replace them with PT rated structural screws?

Best way to add a riser to the stairs? Does my idea sound reasonable?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Yes, I know that the most sensible thing to do is to tear the entire thing down and do it right from the beginning but we don’t have the money or time for that.

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Replies

  1. User avater
    xxPaulCPxx | Apr 27, 2012 07:21pm | #1

    First of all, these guys will be your friend:

    http://www.connectorsonly.com/simpson-strong-tie.html

    The only place I could find where I didn't pay retail for connection hardware.  You can get all ZMAX from there, or get SS if you need that much protection.  You might want to add a layer of peel&stick between the boards and the hangers too.

    Instead of redoing it using nails, i would suggest using the SD9 or SD10 screws - even if they are going back into the same nail holes as the old nails.  The threads will still hold them at least as well as the nails did.  If you find them loose and not grabbing the sides of the hole, you can squirt in some foaming polyurathane glue - that will bond with the screw and the hole.  I did that on som hangers in my house that the nails had popped out of due to shrinkage.

    The big box stores should have a big selection of galvy bolts.

    I m concerned about the bolt through that vertical stair handrail piece - it appears the bolt goes through the seam between two boards.

    For the risers, what about using a painted black thick galvy mesh instead?  Lots of light and easy to screw into both the top and bottom treads.

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | Apr 28, 2012 04:33pm | #3

      thanks

      For the reply,

      That online connector place looks like it has pretty good prices.

      On the handrail post it might just be the angle but I'll have to check it out when I get home.

      I don't like to buy bolts from the big box stores as I am very circumspect of their quality.....

      I've got a real lumberyard nearby that seems to carry better quality stuff in that respect.

  2. florida | Apr 27, 2012 10:46pm | #2

    Just to clarify something. Unless you are permitting the work for some reason you're not required to bring the deck up to current codes.

    For removing hangers we use this

    http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Hand-Tools-Wrecking-Pry-Bars/h_d1/N-5yc1vZashb/R-202332139/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

    We drive the straight claw under the nails which either pulls the head up or cuts it off. We replace rusted hangers with stainless steel and SS hanger nails. Same with bolts and stair brackets, SS only. You'll never get the nails out wihout destroying the wood and I'd replace those handrails anyway, they look pretty nasty. I've started using Tandeck for the handrails since it looks nicer, doesn't splinter, crack or separate. The hangers we use are the same size as the ones you pictured and are rated for 2 x 6 and 2 X 8 construction.

    Your treads look a little thin to me to be spanning that far. I'd put a 2X riser tight to the bottom front of the tread to give it more support and screw it in good. If the builder used  galvanized gun nails they'd be rusted just like your pictures but a regular 16# nail shouldn't.

    As high and large as that deck is I'd be replacing as much as possible and probably rebolting it to the house just to make sure.

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | Apr 28, 2012 04:38pm | #4

      Hello

      and thanks for the reply.

      The deck is a code enforcement case where I have a limited amount of time to bring it up to current code standards.

      That tool does look pretty handy I have a cats paw and a wonder bar but neither of those have a built in bottle opener.

      I'm thinking that if I go with double shear 2by8 hangers that the nail holes will not be in the same places and I can drive in new nails or screws with less hassle....

      Several people have made similar comments on the treads so it looks like I will have to do as you/them suggest.

  3. User avater
    MarkH | Apr 29, 2012 04:20pm | #5

    I know from your rants that you are pretty picky.  So, I doubt that re-working that deck will produce a result you would be happy with.

    My suggestion is to take it down and start over, unless you like the the design and shape of the deck.  It's easier and faster to just build a new one, and sometimes cheaper if you are hiring the work out.

    Just think of the fun you could have designing a new deck, and seeing it come to fruition.

  4. User avater
    MarkH | Apr 29, 2012 04:43pm | #6

    Ok, if I owned the deck I would just repair it. It's easy for me to spend your money, but I'm not so rich as to start over when the lumber has another 10 years easy left in it.

    I would not use anything but solid risers because if you somehow caught your foot under the 2x4, you could fall, and if your foot was trapped, you could have very serious injuries.

    I would prefer to have a center carriage on the stairs also. 

    I would use a grinder to cut off the nail heads that are on hardware being replaced.  Less likely to split lumber or injure yourself.  Use eye and hearing protection yada yada ....  Lose the little angle brackets on the steps.  Put something beefy and corrosion resistant there.

    I would remove some of the rusted hardware for a reality check, maybe the situation is not as dire as expected.

    I personally like nails myself, but they should not be rusting.  I wouldn't replace them, I'd just add youir choice of fastener to the connection.  I find SS screws are both soft and brittle, so I wouldnt use them for structural uses, yes I know a number of people disagree.  I would use hot dipped Maze spikes and nails myself.  If the rusty heads on the old nails bother you, try dotting the nailheads with a product that transforms rust.  The only one I have had luck with is SEM "Rust Seal", not Rust Mort.

    Mitered corners always come apart, I would get some SS or copper angles bent up and fasten them to hold the corners together.

    Finally, a good cleaning and a quality stain will a lot on the looks.

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | May 01, 2012 01:58pm | #9

      Rants! Hah

      Yes I agree with your experience with SS screws.

      Bought a big box of fancy square drive self drilling 3" screws years ago and mostly what happens when I try to use them I twist the heads off with my impact driver....

      I wonder though if my location is 'salty' enough to require stainless...don't know how to decide that...

      I don't actually have a choice about replacing the joist hangers my BI has already said as much. He is not going to pass the deck if it still have non PT rated stuff in load bearing areas...unfortunately the joist hangers are the easiest thing to tell are not right because its printed right on em...

      And yes I need to get ten more years outta this deck before we will have the funds to replace it...that and its also the only way to get to the two rental appts. on the second floor of our house.

  5. IdahoDon | Apr 29, 2012 09:54pm | #7

    I enjoy your projects because you like to do things right.

    For pulling off old hangers I like to use a pair of end nippers that are flush cutting, not so the heads can be cut off flush, but so the nippers can grab under the nail heads so they can be pulled out.   My favorite pair is a 9" or 10" channel lock concrete tie wire nippers (the identical pliers are also sold for pulling/cutting horse shoe nails at farm and ranch stores).   Neither of these is truely flush cutting, but nearly enough so that a quick sanding with a belt sander and they are.

    In 15 years of construction I have yet to find a faster way to pull off hangers than using these pliers, but I have never seen another carpenter succesfully use other types of end nippers to do the same so I will warn you that all end nippers are not the same and if they aren't filed down to be completely flush cutting they aren't worth a crap. I will say with near certainty that if you buy a pair with a different shape they won't work - if you see another brand that is similar they also will not work - other models of channel lock will not work.

    What you want is not the first or second pics, but the last pic.   They aren't sold everywhere, but are worth spending the extra time to find.  In specialty catalogs I've seen them in 8", 10", and 12" models - all with the same head just different length handles.  The ideal size for what you are doing is either the 10" or 12" - the 10" have a permanent place in my tool bags.   I've litterally pulled hundreds of finish and hundreds if not thousands of framing nails with the set I currently have and it probably has half it's life left.

    As for everything else, it sounds like you're headed in the right direction.  :)

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | May 01, 2012 02:01pm | #10

      thanks for the tip

      I can't quite make out the manf or make in your pic.

      Could you please tell me what they are.

      Also, if I can't find em locally do you know where I can get a pair online?

      Thanks,

      1. IdahoDon | May 01, 2012 03:23pm | #11

        http://www.channellock.com/35-250-Concretors-Nippers.aspx

        I hate to admit it, but my pair has been completely ground smooth and polished - channel lock just doesn't have a very refined finish and since these go everywhere with me I enjoy the feel of them in my hand much more now  :)

        1. User avater
          madmadscientist | May 18, 2012 08:03pm | #14

          Got a New Development

          Just got off the phone with my local Simpson Aplication engineer.

          She says that I abosolutely can not just yank out the LUS26's and replace them with LUS28Z's...

          She says that the holes are in the same places and even if I used their SD screws that the pre-drill hole would be too big! It looks like the hangers are put up with standard 10D nails and she says thats too much of a pre-drilled hole!

          She wants me to use HUS26Z's which cost twice as much take twice as many nails but that the holes are in different places....dang.

          So, I get a 'bright' idea and call up USP and talk to their joist hanger application engineer. I ask him if the nail holes on their version of an LUS26 are in the same place. I'm figuring they couldn't be...but no! He says with a little shame in his voice that their connectors are exactly the same!?!?!?! How could that be legal?

          Then the Simpson engineer gets back to me with another option. Simpson actually makes a joist hanger that is designed to go over another hanger! Who Knew?

          Its called a NRU26Z and it special order only....she could not tell me the price...but heck, if its not stupid expensive then I could just use it and not have to rip out the old ones! That'll turn a multiple day job into a half day job I bet....

          We'll see what they cost...at least if I use the HUS26Z's I don't have to worry about removing the nails I can just break them off at the surface with a cold chisel and a sharp wack.

          Mads

          1. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | May 19, 2012 04:40pm | #17

            That's why I'm thinking epoxy or urathane glue in the holes... something to take up the space and bind the screw to the hole walls.

            You could ask Simpson about filling the nail holes with their 2 part epoxy, then driving the screws in.  That aught to keep the engineeres buzzing amongst themselves!

    2. User avater
      madmadscientist | May 18, 2012 08:04pm | #15

      Got the 12" versions of these

      How exactly should I tune up the face (I'm guessing) so that it will pull these nails?

      Thanks,

      1. IdahoDon | May 19, 2012 11:46am | #16

        Where the jaws come together there is a very slight bevel on the outer (wood side) side of the bite that's very small - you simply sand that off with a belt sander or random orbit until the bevel is removed and the bite of the jaws is essentially flush with the surface of the jaws.

      2. User avater
        MarkH | May 21, 2012 06:32am | #18

        Or, buy hoof (farriers) nippers. They are flush nippers, and are generally well made tools. This would be my choice. http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-14D-14-Inch-Nipper-Plastic/dp/B00002N7PJ/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1337596328&sr=1-1

  6. tobydouglas | Apr 30, 2012 05:59am | #8

    Deck not all that bad actually it is kinda nice

    Hey old mad,

    Well I would first approach a lot of your project with more discussion with an informed/qualified building inspector.

    You have a lot of corroded fasteners, but in all the pictures that you posted most all of them meet the IRC codes, (codes are really a set of minimums).  If you don't like the looks of the deck fastners you should probably use stainless steel.

    Stainless steel is not as strong as regular steel, but it is more corrosion resistant.  The metal brackets under your stair treads could be looked upon as actually meeting residential code (the analogy are the 1/2 inch or larger anchor bolts that go through the pressure treated sills of your house.  It might rust, but it will take a very,very long time.

    Your handrail just needs to meet the req'mnt of a grippable surface (if you get too restrictive here you have reduced design possibilities).  The 4" rule, just blind out the larger space with the 2x4 you already suggested.

    If it is of any comfort, my first open minded impression was that your stair case looked fairly good.  If you want to tantalize your imagination about design possibilities go to the public library and look at a picture book about fencing.  There you will be able to quickly see all kinds of boundary solutions.

    One last consideration:  are you fairly close to the coast?  You have additinal considerations in that case, that will take extraordinary steps.  (there are grades of stainless steel)

    Douglas

    1. User avater
      madmadscientist | May 02, 2012 02:42pm | #12

      Hello Douglas

      Actually I don't want to be tantalized by design ideas right now.

      What I have to do right now is bring the deck up to code as quickly

      as possible.

      In ten years I'll want to think about that stuff.

      I live in Alameda CA which technically is an island surronded by bay not open ocean.

      We're about a mile from the bay...

      This is one of my biggest concerns...how in the heck do I decide if I need to go up to stainless on the fasteners?

      My BI is okay with zmax and typlically I will spray all my hardware with a coat of galv compound from a spray can also...

      About the stairs I figured out what the angles are they are SCA-10's from USP connectors.http://www.uspconnectors.com/pdf-full-line-2010/189.pdf

      Looks like they're good if they are the gold coated version but I don't as of yet know if mine are.

       

      1. User avater
        madmadscientist | May 02, 2012 02:46pm | #13

        Hurray

        It appears that the PO did somethign right.

        The stair angles are indeed the gold coat version which is their most resistant coating!

        At least I won't have to replace those...but a lot of the lag screws holding them on are rotting away so I will have to replace those

        with the correct hot dipped stuff.

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