Hi,
I’m have trouble setting out some stone veneer. I losing my way from the floor set up to actually getting it on the wall. Needless to say one wrong piece throws everything out. I’m hoping to get some tips and tricks on doing this job, which I’ve never done before.
All help appreciated,
Mike
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Replies
Sorry, forgot to include the pics. Thought they may help.
Mike
First off, wet the block as you go. Your mud will dry slower and stronger. Facing a wall like this is an attempt to mimic a "Real" stone wall.
So, think in terms of "Courses".
They don't have to be linear like a brick wall, but rather layer upon layer as you would if truly stacking stones.
I think your stones don't have a feeling of "Sitting Down". Or being
weighted down if that makes sense. Started with the corners. Build both the face and the end together.
Keep in mind you will want to cross the joints next to the corners as much as possible.
This is a often obvious detail with facing. You can see a vertical line running next to the corner. As you lay on layer you are leaving a negative space for the next
course. Pay close attention to the space you are creating for this next stone.
Big steps and unfillable voids will have you looking for
"The Perfect Stone".
You are working with very regular squares and rectangles, so
make Squares and rectangles that suite them. All of this goes contrary to laying out the entire wall on the ground.
Don't do that. It won't fit right and it won't look good either. Loosen up!
This a creative task and requires a clear and confident mind.
As long as I'm rattling on... Striking the joints is it's own deal. Work with rather dry mud (not old mud but dry mud).
Pack the joints full so there are no voids hidden inside.
Let it set up. that means waiting for it to no long smear
on the the face of the stone. Then compress it back. At this point there are numerous ways to finish the look.
I "Strike" my joints. Which means as I compress the mud I also scrape it back to
an even plane.
Usually a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch back from the rock face. Then wait again. When it is just barely workable I brush each and every joint
smooth.
One of those throw away china brushes is perfect. Hope this was helpful. Chuck
Thanks,
The stones are very irregular, a bit too "natural" The problem I'm having is that some of the shapes are bit bizarre, like natural stone, however, unlike natural stone trimming and cutting the veneer spoils the whole effect. I'm going to try one more wall, this time leaving space for a grout joint. If it doesn't look better I'll switch the stone out for something a little more symmetrical to use on the inside of the walls. That's what will be the most visual. I think I'm over my head here.
Thanks again,
Mike
From your last post and looking at the pictures, I think maybe you
are trying to lay them to tight. Those stones aren't meant for a "DryStack" look. As in no visible joints.
Your wall will have the stones "Floating" in the joints.
Now obviously if the joints are to big it will look crummy, but
making them to tight is no good either.
What happens is you end up with big gaps where the profiles don't match next to tight little joints. Not good. Start a bit loose and then stay consistent. Do you have a couple of these-
http://www.toolbarn.com/category/masonry-tuck-pointers/ Get yourself a couple. one that is 1/2" wide and another 3/8". Use the 3/8" as your guide. That is ideally what all your joints should be.
1/2" takes care of the wide spots. Avoid narrower then 3/8" and it will look fairly consistent.PS
You really need some corner stones.
Edited 1/11/2009 12:49 pm ET by Henley
Thanks,
I'm inserting pedestals in the gaps so I'm not using the corners on the walls but using the corners on the pedestal.
Mike
you in the PacNW or Cusco
like your work!
Thanks, but no I'm not out west, although I did do 3 weeks in Cannon Beach, Oregon a few years ago.I'm in good old New England, Connecticut.
Rod(although my heart is in Maine)
Thanks,
You were right. I gave a bit of space between the stones and, which seemed to make things much easier, started from the middle of the setup and worked my way out. Spiral fashion. Still need to do a little finalizing but all in all it went much better. Did the 2 setups pictured in 15 mins. The last 2 took me 2 hours. I'm learning. Thanks to all the other helpers. I can't tell you how frustrated I was getting.
Mike
"If it doesn't look better I'll switch the stone out..."I started with the veneer stuff and ended up using real stone. Used to think the veneer looked good but I'll never use it again.
I would encourage you to try it if you can easily make the switch, if not, keep at it, look at lots of pictures (google stone wall images) or actual stone structures.
Edited 1/11/2009 4:36 pm ET by CJM
What's the problem again? The only thing i can see is you didn't use corner stones everything else looks fine.
Remember the rule.........2 stones over 1, 1 stone over 2.
Do the corners first, pick the best outside edges for them.
Once the corners are up, run string line across the faces to keep the wall going vertical.
I always try to think 3 or 4 stones ahead, ie.........if I put this here, what will that do for me there.
Trim your stones to fit........don't leave a little 2" x 2" square hole to fill .............it doesn't look right.
Try to keep your joints away from each other.......too close together results in odd spaces.
My first wall I built I spent 2 long hard days doing it. Third day I spent tearing it all out. That was 28 years ago. Haven't torn one out since.
Do it right the first time is my motto now!
Rod
Nice wall!
Very smooth face. I prefer a bit more definition, but that is
only my taste.
Honestly nice work.
Thanks,
That is a nice wall but I notice all the straight lines, not a bad thing, but a lot of this stuff I'm using is very irregular and I may have described the material wrongly. I'm using a fake stone, made from some form of concrete, so I'm trying to avoid having straight cut lines, and the 2 over 1 just isn't going to work, I have some peices @ 2" and others @ 8" high.
Thanks,
Mike
2 over 1, 1 over 2, pick your corners.The straight lines were just that particular pattern of laying stone.2 over 1, 1 over 2, pick your corners, works in any stone pattern.As someone else mentioned, let the stone "talk" to you. Rod
View Image
Hey, nice Timber Frame too.
OK I see your fundamental problem. You're trying to lay stone like brick.. It's not brick and shouldn't be treated like it is..
Laying stone is more art than science. Let the stone talk to you.
I know how mystic that sounds but please it is really simple once you understand it..
Accept that you're going to put up several stones before you find the"right" one for a given location.. with experiance your eye figures it out like the pieces of a puzzle and you'll look at stone and it will just tell you where it goes..
I started with what are called slip sticks.. when a tape measure breaks it's end off cut the remains with a tin snips at exactly the 1 foot mark.. use that to find a piece about the right length and depth.. eventually with experiance you'll glace at stones and pick the right one up every time..
Go over to the left and enter in 85891.1 & 94941.1 you'll see how I did my stone wall.
Edited 1/10/2009 7:38 pm ET by frenchy
" Let the stone talk to you " you made me smile!
I've had full on relationships with stone. I really should get some pics of one wall.
I was fully into it! It was my going away present to my mom.
Yeh maybe I should have said talk to the stone but since I think stone talks to me already I'd expect the guys with the white suits to be knocking on my door pretty soon. <grin>
I keep hoping someone will see the humor I put into my stone work.. Stone masons all see it and laugh with me but brick masons never understand the joke..
>>Stone masons all see it and laugh with me but brick masons never understand the joke.<<
Frenchy... They weren't laughing with you, they were laughing at you. And it wasn't the talking back to the stones that amused them. It was the full out conversation with the stone audience. I guess because you actually found a group that was willing to listen to you.
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:-) joking...
Seriously though - anyone who has even done this even a little knows it is a lot of work and 3x as much for novices. And using natural stone turns into heavy work. My hat is off to you in that regard. And you are right - you gotta get in the right mind set. It's not like - "OK - I'll have this wall done in an hour and a half and those 2 done by the end of the day...." or at least not for a beginner.
Frenchy-- I too talk to the stone, brick. block or whatever,I'm laying. but only after I have known them awhile, usally when they fall off the wall for no apparant reason / scuff up my elbows or shins/or flutter the covers. %)
The G.C.'s I work for," when I,m working that is" have found me laying on the wall i am working on with stones on my chest ,a lite one on my forehead or whatever it takes to become one with the stone "This is wtrue".I have even just sat beside a couple pallets of brick with my arms and face on them just to give them a hug and to become friends with them and ask for their help in giving to my customers a presentable job.I know this is weird but to me it is a show of respect for the materials and the people who worked to take the raw materials they are made out of and give it their best to present me with the finished product I am to install.Heck I don't reckon it hurts anything to be a little off center.
Strange-----(the crikets chirp)---, but then again I am typing this with my finger and toe nails all painted differant colors and as my little girl tells me, a marvilous make up job. She has just finished her handi work, and I will bet my bottom Dollar I look like a 280# Amy Winehouse, with kitty kat wiskers. ahhhhhh the fast and fun times of a stay at home dad.
Edited 1/12/2009 9:11 am ET by dedubya
There is a house done in Monterey California ( the Greene and Greene House) where the stone mason tore down walls sometimes 3 times because they weren't "right" I mean structurally they were correct but they didn't "sing" to the architect.
Today that's one of the most photographed houses in California. It's been on the cover of this magazine.
<I've had full on relationships with stone.>
LOL, glad to know I'm not the only one. I've scattered pallets around so I could pick and choose, and there are always one or two that look promising, but no matter how many times i flip and spin 'em, they just don't work.
By the end of the job, I scowl at those guys like an unwelcome relative... "oh, you again?"
k
Those guy's ! Yeah I call them "Non-Rocks".
Cause they don't fit anywhere in the universe. I think the thing to do is save them up and make one
extremely crooked and ugly wall out of them.
Might appease the Stone Gods.
I'll send you mine...
k
Pallets?
To really develop a relationship with the stone, one has to go to the fields and pick it. Like 15 years worth of picking...
I'm not sure if this will help or not, but it might be worth something:
http://www.culturedstone.com/installation/
Josh,
Hey thanks for that link. I learned a lot.
Thanks.
Great reply's above so I can't add to that.
Used to live in an area with miles and miles of drystacked stone walls, some 200 years old.
These guys building or rebuilding them had a saying "Every stone has a home". In other words, don't put a stone down for another. In the winter they worked in a heated tent which they moved along the wall. On one side would be a pile of stones and out the other would come a 3' high wall, all nice and neat.
Runnerguy