NEED honest natural gas boiler advice
Hi. Can someone give me straight answers on biolers?
I recently was told that my 26 year old Weil Mclain VHE bioler needs to be replaced. I discovered it leaking (while it was cold and not operating) last month onto the basement floor. I had a plumbing and heating company check it out. He opened the back cover of the bioler and we could plainly see water slowly leaking down from between the cast iron sections where the hi temp caulk that they use in there to seal between the sections. This a a seal that is done in the factory I’m told. It was only from one seam.
Now I had this occur about 4 years ago and at the time the technician said it could seal itself up when I go to fire up the boiler during the winter and it did. Four years later and its leaking again. I’m afraid to chance it again (what with getting married later this year, my new lovely wife wouldn’t appreciate the broken boiler and neither would I in the dead of winter)
As a quick back story I found out late this winter that my bioler had been operating all winter with the valve to the expansion tank turned off (it was actually caused by a plumber who did work on the system in the spring and failed to turn that valve on). This caused a lot of pressure to build up and cycle throughtout the winter until finally my pressure relief valve started to release water. I turned the expansion tank valve on after that and it seemed to work fine. But I’m afraid that all of that cycling of high pressure throughout the winter may have fatigued and weakened the bioler system, eventually causing the leak.
I’ve gotten two companies to give me estimates on new biolers (one for about 6300 and one said 8.5 K to 10 K, and I intend on getting at leat 3 more estimates). One seemed to only push a system called Quietside. Anybody know if that’s a good system? Various reviews around the Internet found a lot of problems with them. Also this Quietside has the ability to hook up the domestic hot water to it, is that a good thing? When I inquired about the other systems (even lower 87% ones), in his thick book he carried, he just waved his hand and said that those systems would cost just the same to install so why go with them.
Another suggested getting the Weil Mclain Ultra (UG4) series boiler. But when I asked about getting a less expensive Weil Mclain system I felt he was a bit vague. Why not the Weil Mclain GV4 systems or the CGi system? He said something about how I was locked into the Ultra because the Cgi and GV would require a chimney system to be added to the house. But Weil M website shows that those other systems can be direct vented thru my block wall to the outside. I’m inclined to choose the GV4 since its efficiency is rated at 87% (between the 84 of the CGi and the 92 of the Ultra). So I’m confused now.
Does an 87% boiler qualify for the tax credit incentive?
I’ve owned the house for 5 years, the Weil Mclain is orig to the house (26 years old). It is a direct vent condensing system (that’s what they told me). It’s a Weil Mclain VHE Series 2 system, not made any more. I have hot water baseboard heating (not zoned). The boiler heats the water for them. I live in Southeastern PA. I will most likely be moving in a year or so.
American Standard doesn’t seem to offer much in the way of higher effficiency gas biolers. How about Carrier?
Sorry for being so long winded. Thanks to everyone in advance for any straight advice or direction.
Replies
One, unless the cast iron section is fractured, most WM dealers have the seal kits on hand. Yes, they are originally applied at the factory, but sections on cast iron Weil-McClain (and just about every other brand) boilers are changed all the time. If the cast iron is broken, it can be replaced as well.
This system is design to operate at low pressures and with expansion tank isolated, you (your not so bright plumber) forced water through a weak spot. Not necessarily bad, but don't let that plumber (plumbers, BTW, should stick with faucets and toilets, NOT boilers) touch your boiler again. If you wish to persue this, THEY ought to repair your boiler because of THEIR mistake, but good luck with that! Under normal pressure (5 psi) the system probably won't leak again, but that is just a guess. The overpressure situation may have compromised the section seal, but as mentioned above, that can be easily repaired.
I would recommend a heating contractor check the system, replace the relief valve and make sure the expansion tank and air separator are all in good working order and leave the boiler alone unless necessary, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".
Tax incentives in your area are best researched by you, if you want to make a decision based on that criteria.
Never heard of Quiteside.
If you are moving in a year or so, I would do maintenance on this system only.
For the best help on boilers, go here:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/wall_forum.cfm
and post you situation there.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
If you were going to stay, doing any weil-mclain other than the ultra, with an outdoor sensor installed, would be silly. It is the only one that will qualify for the tax credit to the best of my knowledge, and AFUE is not the entirety of the story. Modulation and reset-powered condensation are big deals, plus the thing is dead silent... very nice. You'll definitely save more than 5% at the end of the day with the outdoor sensor installed and properly configured for your area.
If you're not going to stay, I would do the same thing and expect to mention "brand new high efficiency boiler" on the sales listing. Use it as a sales tool. They look pretty cool too.
though honestly I do prefer Triangle Tube Prestige series boilers. Not a fan of Quietside.
while it may be a bit more now, I would question the ethics of sticking the next owner with a less ideal solution, and there is a big difference here. You could limp this along for the next owner and let them decide what to do, but they are going to need to replace anyway, so you can
-do it now and add the cost to your sale price,
-or you can wait and hope to fool someone into thinking it will last, which I would definitely call unethical
-or you can wait and knock the price of replacement off of your asking price.
might as well do it now and save on some fuel while you are still there.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
"If you're not going to stay, I would do the same thing and expect to mention "brand new high efficiency boiler" on the sales listing. Use it as a sales tool. They look pretty cool too."
I take it you've never bought or sold a house. Bad idea, waste of money.
"I would question the ethics of sticking the next owner with a less ideal solution"
Repairing a perfectly good system that, other than a moron mistake, operates perfectly well, is unethical. You believe that every builder and seller out there are providing nothing but ideal?!? Robby, baby, welcome to our planet. That doesn't happen here.
Sorry Tim, but sometimes I gotta disagree. Up here, it's us plumbers that do heat. When was the last time you operated a boiler? 5psi? not in my world.
Your profile explains this comment, very well ;p
But seriously, in my world, plumbers playing heating contractors do the most harm. OTH, most small low temp hydronic system are setup for 5 psi, why would need aything else?
Edited 6/25/2009 2:33 pm by Tim
I've got a boiler working on 1 psi.
Steam not hot water.
I didn't talk about what is normally done, only what is ethical. I don't base my morality on what other people do.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
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Having the expansion tank isolated did not blow the seal between the sections. The relief valve is set to 30 psi. That boiler was supposed to be tested to 45 psi when it was installed.
There are two gaskets between each section. The caulk is on the fire side of the boiler, the gaskets are on the water side. It is possible that there is a crack or pinhole in the section and not the gasket. You have to look between the sections.
You do have a direct vent boiler, not a condensing boiler.
Forget the Quietside.
Get more prices. If there is any chance you are staying longer than a year, I would look at a mod/con. Direct vent cast iron boilers are available.
Viessmann, Weil, Burnham, Slantfin, Dunkirk, Triangle, NTI, Munchkin, lots of choices.
But what do I know, I'm just a dumb plumber. :)
Edited 6/25/2009 2:34 pm ET by rich1
Thanks for the advice. But was is a "mod/con"? I'm not familiar with that abbreviation.
Hi Pizza - that stands for modulating condensing boiler. I have the Weil McClain 155 Ultra 3 with passive hot water tank - it's a great setup and the Ultra 4 is even better. WM has had a few controls issues (like voltage spike lockout) but they've mostly been worked out easily and under warranty.
Jeff
To get the energy tax credit on a gas boiler the AFUE has to be equal or greater than 90%. Note that this is greater than the requirement for an An Energy Star rating.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits
And here is a list of certified products.
http://www.ahrinet.org/ARI/util/showdoc.aspx?doc=1358
I don't know anything about boilers, but, for example A/c systems might be advertisted as a SEER 16 unit. But depending on the exact model in that series and which coil it is matched to the system SEER might be 15 and too low to qualify.
If there is any doubt verify the specific model and installation options with the manufacture to see if they qualify.
And this list state energy rebates/credits and utility company programs.
http://www.dsireusa.org/
Note - be sure and verify any before you depend on them. Sometimes those kind of places are out of date.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Hey Pizza
if you are going to stress over the boiler repair after married, you need to measure the worth of your sanity.
If you are going to be ok with a repair, find a good boiler repair tech and talk to them on the phone, tell them what your issues are and see if they can talk intelligently about it.
If you sell the home, you need to disclose the repair, but if it is repaired by a qualified technician and documented, you have nothing to be concerned about unless the WM does not condone the repairs.
In this market, a new boiler will likely not help sell your home and you will not get your money back out of it. (heat is mandatory, it either works or doesnt. If the home inspector says it is older and might last 1 month and might last 10 years, the buyer will hear the same thing about any other older appliance in any other older resale as well)
Buyers are wowed by community, school district, curb appeal, kitchen appeal, etc. Not the nuts and bolts!
Let me know if you need some referals for some good Boiler Plumbers in the local area. (SE PA)
I'm in Chadds Ford but run Chester, Mont, and DE counties all the time and grew up in Bucks County so I can maybe give you some good names for some good guys
Jeff in PA
[email protected]
Thanks Jeff I'll email you so I could get some good referals that you say you know of. I'd appreciate it.
Also so far none of the two companies talked to me about doing a heat loss calc on the house to size the new system correctly.
It seems to make sense that any boiler tech who is knowleadgeable and trained should be doing that first thing, no? They're just going by the numbers on the plate on the old system (87000 Btu). And they both are suggesting that I need a 105000 BTu unit. How could they really know that without knowing the particulars of my house construction, insulation, window age and condition etc. Every house is different and you can't tell me they're experienced enough to just flip a number off the top of their head when everything I've read about heat loss calcs takes into account those particular details.
The modcons modulate. They go from say 105,000 down to 30,000 btu. (just throwing numbers out for an example.)
So, on the coldest day of the year, you may only need 75,000. That is where a modcon will run. On nicer days it will run lower. Think of it as cruise control. Set the stat in the house at 72, and the boiler will measure the water temp and the outdoor temp and try to keep the house at 72.
Doing a heat loss might not be needed if going with a modcon. You have an 87,000 boiler and the house is comfortable. Modcons don't usually come in a lot of choices, don't have to because they modulate.
Get some prices from some good heating guys and then do the math as to what makes the most sense.
BTW, in one sense Tim is right. A good plumber might not know heating, but a lot of heating guys don't really know boilers.
this post is incorrect.mod/cons are low mass boilers, and they have minimum rates, and what happens under the minimum rate, where the vast majority of homes will operate on mid to high range mod/cons, most of the year?they short cycle.If you have buffer capacity (gigantic radiators, very few zones, thermostats not TRVs) then you don't need a heat loss.otherwise, no major heating appliance should EVER be installed without a heat loss survey being referred to.routinely I specify boilers half the size of others being considered, and I've never had one come up short, and the boiler that is in his house may already be 2x too large.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I agree. Biggest problem with the net is not being able to see the job.
Which is why I added the second post. I was just trying ( and not very well) to point out that with modcons, we only have a few choices in terms of input, but with CI, we need to size very closely.
AFWIW, I think that every system should have a buffer tank. LLH are nice, but don't enough capacity.
It's too bad that Slantfin removed their heat loss program. I've had customers use it to confirm what I was telling them. Great selling tool.
ok now a short story about the dangers of assuming.
Good customer wanted a new boiler. Was willing and able to pay for the best modcon available. He wanted a vitodens 200.
No problem. BTW, any problems heating the house? YES hollers the wife. When it gets cold out, we can't keep the house warm.
OOPS.
So I do a heat loss and measure the baseboard. They have half of what the program tells me they need at 180f water temp. The vitodens won't go to 180 and there is no way to add more baseboard.
I still service the old cast iron boiler every year.
Having said all that, that was a rare case. Most places have way more baseboard than they need, so a much lower water temp can be used, saving a lot of operating cost.
There is higher output hydronic baseboard.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
I know, but it wasn't an option in this case.
I will say that a lot of HVAC guys do figure stuff off the top of their heads.
They look around the house and use swag from experience.
i dont mess with the HVAC Calcs much but am not sure if they can be adjusted for well insulated vs poorly, etc.
My main guy (tin knocker, not boilers) does his calcs and then does adjustments because of this or that. His systems work well, that is for sure!!
Looked at an AC job and did an onsite load calc. The other companies were talking 3.5 and 4 ton AC units.
Load calc and coil selection showed a 2 ton unit would work fine.
Furnace is way oversized and the ductwork is incapable of supporting even 3t of airflow....
None of the other outfits did a load calc or bothered to look in the basement. None of them asked if the homeowners had hot/cold issues in the existing heat only setup.
The point? Plenty of companies go by rule of thumb and what is easiest to do. It only has to last a year. Sizing boilers is at least as complicated as sizing AC systems... maybe more so.
If you are looking to meet tax credit guidelines, you had best research qualifying equipment and standards on your own. Insist on a manufacturers tax credit certificate. There are links at the Energy Star website to the independent ARI tables and certifications.
No certification = no tax credit
"Energy Star Qualified" does *not* necessarily mean the equipment will qualify for the tax credit.
Well...I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. I am a mechanical contractor and builder /remodeler/ home speculator.
Boilers that develop pinholes in the cast iron often plug the hole themselves. (As yours did) However, if this becomes frequent, it's time for a new boiler in my opinion.
So now what do you do?? Most people that buy homes don't know the difference between a fancy boiler and the kind you have, and don't really care. The Mrs. is looking at the kitchen and bath and Pop is looking at the lawn and garage.
Anything but a coal burning boiler doesn't get noticed. Now if you were selling your house to Rob, he would throw you a few more bucks because he would know what he was getting.
If you are selling a budget house, then I would install a budget boiler. If it's a higher priced home, I would probably go for the Ultra because you may be attracting a more sophisticated buyer who would appreciate that and be willing to at least give you back 50 cents on the dollar that it cost you to install it.
Remember, in most places, it's a buyer's market and they are going to try and negotiate you out of every dollar they can.
But this is the problem. For all you free-marketeers out there, pay attention.This replacement will set the boiler in this house for at least the next 15 years, maybe more. There is NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER a mod/con boiler is the right boiler for this job in terms of midterm or longer energy savings. It's the right choice to make. It's the choice the informed person would make if they lived there for 5 years or more, for sure. That is, purely as purely can be, a fact. the fact that the person DOING the replacement isn't planning on being here that long is allowing this decision to be made on poor criteria: initial cost alone. But there is much more at stake. these are the very decisions that are the cause of the problems our whole society is facing. I encourage all of us to have the courage to look at it a little differently. There are things at least as important as a few bucks. especially now with the tax credits where the difference really should just be a small amount.If you can't do this right, don't do it, and knock something off of your asking price for the boiler replacement the next owner will need to do, inform them of it, and hopefully THEY can do it based on reality rather than short term economic "shortcut" if you refuse to do it right.And this, free marketeers, is why energy efficiency legislation is a requirement. Because the whole idea of the market solving it breaks when the person making the decision has only a short term interest in the results of their decisions. So they make decisions that are actively bad for everyone but them.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Rob, I don't disagree with a word you said. I'm just telling the guy that if he invests in a boiler like the Ultra, there's a 99.9% chance that he will never get his money back from the buyer. Now, if knowing that fact, he wants to be an energy crusader and spend the money on a boiler like that...that's up to him.
I do like your idea of leveling with the potential buyer and letting him/her choose a new boiler.
FWIW, I've made my living for over 30 years building and selling homes. Rarely, if ever has a potential customer grilled me about the specifics of the heating system. They want to know what type of fuel it uses and whether the house has air conditioning. Beyond that, nobody seems to give a hoot.
Remember, it's the women that buy the house!
So this seller will have to deal with his own situation. But I don't believe he has the moral obligation to install a hi-tech boiler for the next owner, in fact, from an economic standpoint he may not be doing the guy a favor. These new boilers are energy efficient, but they may cost more to operate in the long run because of routine maintenance and breakdowns. They also have an expected life span much less than that of the older style boilers.
Hey BoJangles, I don't mean to point this at you, you just happened to be the one I responded to directly last.I understand people make their own choices about what is acceptable or not: I am simply advocating for a definite stance, that it should not be about short term economics for decisions that have long term impacts like this, and I would not personally pretend like it's a good decision to make decisions like that. "defensible" or not, I think it's wrong. that said, I would make the decision on the facts of the matter, not pretending that something is true that is not (such as that he would see a one or two year payback). I'm just saying that economics to the person who happens to be the purchaser can't continue to be the ONLY concern or we are never going to fix the problems that face us moving forward. That we should, collectively, have the courage to look rationally at a situation, and choose a path that may be slightly harder, to do the right thing.However, to you directly, I meant what I said about this definitely being a correct decision: when you compare the cost of a mod/con vs the cost of a cast iron boiler, including any maintenance differential, in a typical home the mod/con is still a very clear winner economically... 20%+ energy savings will typically pay for quite a bit of service in typical house stock and cast iron boilers aren't service free either, if you want to hold efficiency and ensure lifespan. There are many reliable and even low-maintenance modcon units on the market today, so "premature failure" isn't any more of a concern than with cast iron installed poorly these days. With tax credits, it's a no brainer for sure to anyone with even a medium-term interest in the fuel usage of a building! And that says nothing about where energy prices may go in the next 5 to 10 years. and in terms of lifespan, I have a boiler in my own house, mod/con of course, that replaced the cast iron boiler that was there previously and that died in the middle of winter. That boiler was 12 years old and a major brand name here in the US. Just because it's cast iron doesn't mean it'll last forever... quality isn't what it was in the 70's on those things. And mod/cons have been out quite awhile now... short term failure is basically ruled out, and now we're looking at middle term to see if we are talking about 10, 15, or 20 year lifespans. In short, I see a lot of arguments against modern tech boilers as just FUD at this point. They are clearly the winners in the gas fired world for any house with a real heat load. That is not to say that they can't have problems, just that the problems are, as with anything, the result of poor installations.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
In short, I see a lot of arguments against modern tech boilers as just FUD at this point. They are clearly the winners in the gas fired world for any house with a real heat load. That is not to say that they can't have problems, just that the problems are, as with anything, the result of poor installations.
I don't necessarily agree that the problems we see with mod-cons are because of poor installations. The problems we see result from defective electrical components, certain parts of the boiler that have a rather short life built into them, routine maintenance that is not followed, and lastly little or no knowledge of how these complex units operate or how to set them up properly.
About thirty years ago we started to build apartment buildings as rental units. At that time it was common to install standing pilot boilers. I would say that we have not spent a nickel repairing most of them in that time period. I surely hope that they can eventually get the new boilers to be as maintenance free as the old ones. We have well over a hundred of the standard cast iron boilers installed in these units and have never had a leak in any of them or any other problems for that matter. Saving 20% on gas in a modern home really is not much money, so I'm not convinced that these new boilers are the sure winners in overall operating costs.
I would be on my second or third set of Ultras in that time frame. I'm all for saving energy, but being realistic, some people are more concerned about saving money. For instance, rental unit owners seldom invest in a high tech boiler. They don't care how much the gas bill is at the end of the month because the renter is paying the bill. They are primarily concerned with dependability and not having to get calls from renters with heating problems. I'm not saying that's a good attitude, but that's the way it is.
We happen to deal in the two boilers you mentioned. As I recall, you chose the Ultra in your home....psssss (shoulda got the other one)
$ or $ you will often get a much better return putting the money in insulation, sealing, and design then in equipment.Will often get you smaller and less expensive equipment. And you can get more energy savings than with the equipment..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Yup! insulating and tightening the building is definitely the place to start.
Tim, there is a reason you need your residential boiler over 5 psi. If you have a two story with the boiler in the basement. The top of the second floor radiators can be about 18 feet above the radiator. 5 psi is only 12 feet. You won't have any water on the second floor if you don't have more than 5 psi.
Yeah, I would choose a triangle tube prestige if I were choosing today... which does seem to be a very trouble free boiler with greatly reduced maintenance requirements, stainless steel exchanger, good stuff, tons out there and no real horror stories as of yet. Should last a good long time. I do not sell boilers at all so no one should read that thinking i have a vested interested of any kind in boiler sales.but even with a 15 year lifespan, 20% savings is real money and also real fuel amounts. While heat loads are down in modern homes, energy costs are up. and they are not done. Run the numbers in any heating-dominated climate with a real load, and it would seem to be pretty clear. cost difference, maintenance differential, and a reasonable lifespan assumption (which I would say based on what we're seeing so far, should be 15 years at least), and if you've got gas, a mod/con is the choice. Add domestic in and having a low mass boiler doing your indirect gets even sweeter. If you have gotten your heat load down far enough where a mod/con doesn't make sense, great! but most people have not, at least not in heating climates.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Wow, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the advice and I think soemtimes heated (no pun intended) discussion on this topic I started.
Yes, I want to do the right thing for myself and even for the next owner of the house if and when I decide to sell.
I believe that a new boiler on the sell sheet will make a difference. Yeah, maybe the women do the buying, but pointing out a new boiler unit does count.
I am currently getting other estimates and will try to find out what the cost of a repair will be - just so I know for myself. Although I suspect no one is going to want to attempt it. I suspect that they will all try to sell me a new boiler of some sort.
I'm staying away from the Quietside that the first guy tried to steeer me toward without any other options simply because he didn't give me any options and because my research has found thet they have problems .....period-even though his catalogs were thick with other options-that just didn't seem right.
The third heating guy is coming out this wednesday-armed with a little more knowledge from you guys...I'll see what he has to say. I'm hoping he's honest, knowleadgeable, and doesn't give me just one option (the most expensive one so he can make a large commision, or whatever)
Thanks everyone.!!
I believe that a new boiler on the sell sheet will make a difference. Yeah, maybe the women do the buying, but pointing out a new boiler unit does count.
Yup.
And, at some point, the smart home buyers will notice energy efficiency... and notice which homes have the low end builders grade mechanical equipment.
Maybe some future buyers will notice things fixed right instead of fixed just good enough because the current owners "won't be here long".
Someday....
It's coming up here. Just had an energy audit done on the house. Blower door test, insulation levels, etc. Once any upgrades are done, the audit is done again and then a certificate is issued just like the ones you get with a stove or fridge stating how it rates on a scale of 100.
There are rumblings about making it mandatory. And you can bet the next generation of homebuyers will be looking at how efficient a house is as a major factor.
I hope that, eventually, more homebuyers become wise to sellers making poor choices regarding major mechanical repairs.
Someday...
This is the problem with not being practical and not having enough real world sense to know the difference.
A mod/con boiler is going to last "at least the next 15 years"? Doubtful, and you don't have enough experience to know any different.
Is a low mass, modulating, condensing boiler aboslutely THE "right" (meaning the sole correct choice). No. I don't disagree that it is a good choice, but not THE choice.
This is not an issue about free markets, but your liberal bent does detract from your technical knowlegde (and makes you more like Frenchy than Piffin).
Everyday, real people are faced with real choices and compromises must be made. Get off your high horse and get a clue. If your XX year old car needs brakes, do you overhaul the engine? You might, but most intelligent people would not.
You can't say "doubtful" either about 15 year lifespans based on any actual evidence, but I can say there are plenty out there at 10+ right now, and europe has had them even longer. So take your fearmongering elsewhere and get with the times. It's 2009 tough guy. Munchkins are 12 years old. Where are the mass mod/con replacements?I will reiterate: for a gas fired home, with a real heat load, a mod/con is the only choice that makes any sense, unless you happen to be in an area that has no qualified installers. The facts do not support 60 year old boiler technology anymore. To anyone looking at the facts, it should be clear. Even without condensing, they are clear winners simply by modulation and sealed combustion operation. In some cases, you might need a small buffer tank as well. that's it. Compromises must be made sometimes: no doubt. But I don't put lipstick on a pig and pretend that it's ok to squirt some WD-40 on my used car's squeaks just before selling it to someone else just because that's what people do, if I know it has real problems. And reoccurring leaks on a cast iron boiler are real problems, not "brake failure". Masking the symptom of that problem and acting like the boiler is fine is unethical, though normal i agree. Putting in dinosaur boilers in todays day and age is at the very least a poor decision, though if it's the only choice possible, so be it. But if it's possible to do better, better should be done. As for the free market stuff, I mention it only because this is a prime example of why market forces do not always yield optimal results. My "liberal bent" certainly shouldn't change my technical knowledge. I am very capable of calculating an approximate payback and, with a little more grubbing even a ROI calculation on the choice, given the facts, and armed with someone's guess on what they will pay for fuel. I'm simply saying that calculation is not always the end of the story. Such as in this particular case, when you are making the decision for the long term. In that case, the decision should be made for the long term, period.When I sell my house with its replacement mod/con boiler in the basement that has been on the market 2 years longer than I expected in this economic climate, I can say that not only did I do the right thing, I am benefiting from it as well. Funny how things work out: if the house sells, ok, maybe you missed out on a little profit from the sale. If it doesn't, you save money on fuel. good stuff.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com