Developing a project where the client wants almost 10′ ceiling on their one story 3000sf ranch style house. Current plate height is 8′. New Attic will have very steep pitches 12″ to 24″ to create usable space in attic with lots of gables and dormers.
In those spaces where attic is not created, the first floor ceilings will be vaulted.
So the challenge is to how to raise the existing plate height to 10′ or near 10′.
I have had three thoughts on this.
1) Knock down the whole darn house since all we are saving is less than 200 lf of exterior wall-all interior walls are being removed and the roof is being taken off and existing window and door locations are all changed. I cannot convince the owners this is the best way to go-(until I put hard numbers on it)
2)Build a knee wall and lag bolt to existing plate. Add plywood to the span the knee wall and tie into the existing wall. I am concerned that there is weak moment arm at the old plate and new knee wall connection even though the entire house will have structural ridges so I am not that concerned about spreading.
3) Add an 18″ or 24″ LVL or PSL beam on top of the existing wall and lag bolt with Plywood overlapping as mentioned above. Same concerns about the moment at the joint.
Your thoughts and ideas would be appreciated
Bruce
Replies
I built up one of those in Travis Heights but I only had to go up one foot. I used the solid header method and ran a couple full length studs on each end of the "headers".
It was a huge pain and we probably would have been much better off knocking it down. But, we were in a dilema because of existing encroachments.
What street is this project on?
Hijack: do you know of any good shops available for lease? We are looking for about five thousand feet with some sort of yard.
No encroachments, projects is in North University Area.
I do not know a that big of a shop space, but I am considering selling the lot next door to my shop. I am here most of the afternoon today and there is a shop across the street for sale.
Bruce
Do the hard numbers to convince them. ( do they want to live there while you are doing the job too? LOL That is almost as rediculous as saving the old walls to plate. Demo is cheaper when you do it all clean.
I did one similar and the ONLY reason we tryed to save the orig walls was that few opening locations were changing.
But in process they managed to change almost every one of them so they wasted lots of money.
But the method would be to add an 18" LVL header all the way around. with a double top plate over that you get tot he height you want.
Being energy conscious, I might consider a single LVL centered, and pack space with foam both sides of it. You also need a plan to have the sheathing connect across joints.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Here they won't let you attach to the top of the wall. Where the two walls meet it acts like a hinge. You might get an engineer to approve something but I doubt it, better off do 10' high walls.
There are ways to counteract that hinge action, with sheathing and hardware.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here they won't let you attach to the top of the wall.
Sure they will and have. I've done in many times raising the walls 12". I bid a job couple years ago where the walls were raised 18" using 18" lvl's gluing screwing and breaking the center of horizontal sheathing over over the top plate and lvl's. They also required simpson straps every 16" center.
2' I've never seen. It will definitely have to be engineered. There was a guy at JLC forum that suggested to run the second floor studs on the top plate and then run the joists into the studs, I think he said either with a ledger or just running the joists along side the studs and then putting studs underneath. I think that's the best idea. You can cut the top plates out and run king studs down to the shoe of the first floor and put headers in.Joe Carola
I like that marriage of a balloon frame there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your building codes are different than ours and you admit you have never seen 2'. That is all my point was. Different areas different codes and yes there is always a way to beat the system. Some engineers will and some will not. I still think it is easier to reframe.
Your building codes are different than ours and you admit you have never seen 2'. That is all my point was. Different areas different codes and yes there is always a way to beat the system. Some engineers will and some will not. I still think it is easier to reframe.
I'm IRC 2006, What are you? What do you mean by beating the system?
It's easier to reframe now that he's ripping apart the exterior and interior walls and windows. If he wasn't he has options.
Joe Carola
Silvertip and a bunch of us are under the Canadian Building code which doesn't like studs not to be continuous, and generally won't take into account sheathing as stiffening a wall except against shear. I guess you could get an engineer to come up with something but up here it's generally a no-go. That's why the poles on our Tipis extend through the roof.
I took two months to get over the living there discussions. The key was lead paint exposure to their 2 yr old son. They were fairly adamant that it could be done a bit at a time.
I will try to convince the tear down is the best way.
Bruce
"I took two months to get over the living there discussions. The key was lead paint exposure to their 2 yr old son. They were fairly adamant that it could be done a bit at a time.I will try to convince the tear down is the best way."Well, it could be done that way at four times the cost!Holy cow - I was kidding about them wanting to live there. If they are this goofy, you are going to need a ton of patience to handle them while actually doing the work.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bruce,
My bad in my first post. I thought you were adding a second floor.
When I was young and stupid I framed the front wall of a Contemporary house 6'. It was supposed to be 10. This wall was a cathedral ceiling with 2x12 24' rafters going to the second floor. Architect came out and we had to glue, nailed and bolt 10' 2x10's flat to the wall up against a 2' kneewall. We then nailed 2x6's along side the kneewall studs and the 2x10's. Maybe 3/4" plywood, glue and screws would be stronger instead of the 2x6's.
This was easy because it was a new frame job. You would have to gut the walls and then add extension jambs for the windows. This is still cheaper than knocking all the walls and siding down.
Maybe that could be done along with gluing, screwing and simpson over the plywood and studs.
If this was new, it might make sense, but we are tearing off the existing brick facade, none of the existing window and door openings will be used and we will be tearing out the existing drywall to upgrade electrical and insulation.
If we were not doing so much demo it may make sense, but with 3/4 of the wall already slated to be demoed, the added work to save it does not make sense (in my mind) when you have to jury rig a 2' addition to the existing wall. A trackhoe with a thumb can remove alot of walls in a hurry.(plus I want to rent a trackhoe with a thumb to take off the roof)
THanks for your input.
Edited 7/26/2009 5:05 pm by Hiker
Edited 7/26/2009 5:05 pm by Hiker
but we are tearing off the existing brick facade, none of the existing window and door openings will be used and we will be tearing out the existing drywall to upgrade electrical and insulation
Didn't realize you're doing all that. It's a no brainer to frame all new 10' walls.
Joe Carola
problem being, it is sounding like he has a no-brainer for a customer trying t5o tell him how to do the job.Customer's job is to tell me what they want to end up with. My job is to decide how to get from here to there.
And I'm not shy about reminding them of that fact.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Build a 10 foot wall INSIDE the existing walls. Stagger the studs so the new studs do not line up with the original studs. Now you have your new 10 foot height along with a better thermal break of the inside wall studs to the outside sheathing. Plus thicker walls for better insulation.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any way you run the numbers, it's going to be faster and cheaper to tear it down and rebuild with new.
I know it's hard to convince homeowners and that's why I hated remodeling so much. I'd end up doing stupid things because they wanted it done that way but they were never willing to pay more for doing the stupid things. They normally thought they should get a discount LOL.
Is your shop space near the downtown area?
Here is a map to the shop
Stop by I will be here all day
3409 Andtree Blvd
Bruce
I wonder if you couldn't do a SIPS wall instead:
either the SIP would be only 24" tall with a ton of extra OSB overhang, or just straight 10' walls - they might sell better since the "wall" is complete once it is set. It may be easier for the client to visualize a quick SIP install than a quick frame, then sheath, then utility, then insulation, then drywall.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I suppose you could notch out the plate between every 3rd or 4th stud and run a full-length stud through. You'd want to somehow fasten the stud to the old plate, though (maybe sister to an adjacent existing stud), so that it wouldn't just pull loose from the wall.
I did a fix job on a miss-framed home many years ago. The original unqualified framer framed all the walls at 8’ and added a 2’ wall to the entire frame, then put the ceilings and roof on that. He left the job unfinished and we were hired to fix it. There was quite a lot off wobble at the hinges but not as much as you might expect. Most of the hinge flex was cured with double studed posts run through the lower top plates. The corners were not flexing and only the longer walls and around the larger doors and windows needed the added posts. It was not the correct way to frame a new house, but we didn’t have to tear it down either, the fix worked.
Ask someone if that'll work for you.
We ran studs up every 16' or so. Mostly on the ends of each wall. I figured that if it was good enough for a garage door header, it was good enough for a wall. The engineer agreed with me and stamped my idea.
That would probably work fine, but I am going to push for total demo-I just know it will cost less that way.
Thanks
Bruce
I'd knock it down. Reading the other solutions it sounds like it would be easier lowering the ground!!
Runnerguy