need wood gutter installation tips
Megunticook
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’ve about to install 38′ of wood gutter and wondered if I could ask for some suggestions (Piffin, I know you’ve done a fair bit of these over on the island).
Here’s some visuals to show where they’re to be installed (just the main lower eave, not the dormer for now):
- First, treating the wood (it’s clear Doug Fir, by the way). Initially my thought was simply to oil the gutters with linseed oil in order to avoid any paint issues related to the moisture. Then I thought it might end up with mildew blackening stains, so I thought I’d oil the trough only and then paint the bottom and visible side (leaving the backside unpainted to allow any moisture that gets in the wood to evaporate–there would be a 1/2″ airspace there created by spacers placed along the fascia). What’s your experience with painting wood gutters? I’ve seen cases where the gutters weren’t properly maintained and water backed up in them, keeping the wood wet and causing the paint to fail badly. But if the gutters are well-maintained and allowed to dry, is paint fine?
- Second–there is only 4 1/8″ of fascia, the gutter measures 3 1/2″ high. If I want to keep the gutter from dropping below the fascia, that leaves only 5/8″ for drop on a 38 foot run, which seems like a bad idea. I would prefer to have only 1 downspout, but could have 2 if absolutely necessary. Suggestions on how to handle this?
- Relatedly, I need to check this to confirm but I’m not sure I can keep the gutter below the plane of the roof (6/12). Should I just fasten her into the rafter tails extra strong and figure it will load up with snow? Or is there a way to drop it below the fascia without looking silly?
- Third: I will need to join 2 20′ pieces. I’m planning a 45 degree scarf joint, with the edges in the trough beveled with a rasp and filled level with caulking. A better method?
- Fourth: should I do some sort of return on both ends, by have a 45 degree miter cut and running a short section of gutter from the outer gutter face into the fascia?
- Fifth (sorry for being long-winded): what’s the best downspout product to get? I would like to drop straight down into a wooden barrel with a copper downspout, the barrel will have a spigot to allow the water to be used in the yard/garden.
- Sixth, I was planning to use 1/2 treated plywood spacers between the back of the gutter and the fascia to allow air to circulate back there and dry things out. Good idea?
Thanks so much for your help.
Edited 10/17/2007 6:13 am ET by Megunticook
Replies
Er....please? (I did take the trouble to do a search to see if these questions had been covered in a previous thread...if I missed something, I apologize)
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Just curious - since does not look like a house on historic record?, so why choose wood gutters?
Live in PNW, until the '60s nearly all gutters were either clear DF or heart cedar as they were actually the cheapest then. Penta was the preferred treatment (obviously nno-obtainium now unless you have a hoard squirreled away). Even with Penta, 10-15 years was a long life.
I like the look; and I believe (although I could be wrong) that with proper preventative maintenance they will last many decades.Now, about those questions I asked. . .
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You NEED two drops (downspouts) for certain, I do know that.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Because of the length of run? I've read 35 is the cutoff, I've also read 40.
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No, gutter capabiltiy and roof size dumping into it. I've seen too many choked up gutters being overwhelmed, and with one drop outlet you really run the risk of a single clog , clogging the whole run. With two, at least some would drain.
Swallow up one birds nest in there and ya got a huge waterfall.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Good point.So pitch it from the center down toward either corner...hmmm, that would help with the narrow fascia problem, but then I'd have to have 2 runoff collection barrels, one at each corner.
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I've hung a mile of gutters and seen a lot of issues, but you are dealing with a whole different animal in all the other respects you asked about.
This months JLC has a bit about a curved gutter, but IIRC, not much detail on the specifics of the install.
As with any gutter, try to be as close to the natural drip off the roof edge, so water can't get behind, and yup, snow accomodation will be a counter productive approach to water handleing effieciancy..gotta find that fine line between those two. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I've constructed and installed only one wooden gutter, a straight length of about 30 feet and pitched both directions from the center.
It has been in service for about 5 years, with no signs of deterioration. It is constructed of white pine, with all joints expoxied. The exterior is painted with a good quality alkyd oil paint. The interior was coated with epoxy (West System), lightly sanded, then painted with a high-grade industrial oil enamel.
It is attached to the fascia with stainless steel screws.
Maintenance has consisted of the usual cleaning out of leaves and debris. No there has been absolutely no paint failure to date.
Spacers between the fascia and the gutter seem like a good idea to me, although I didn't do it. I will defer to others with more experience.
Allen
I have done repair and restoraation work on fir and cypress gutters here that are a hundred years old.There was a time thaat the aretaakers leaned the gutters twie a year and oiled them yearly.now, you are lucky to find one who even onsiders cleaaning them until they see trees growing in the debris - and then they call me rather than doing such a simple job themselves. New gutters now might only last 10-15 years with that kind of 'care'You guys do have a much wetter climate than we do too though
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a much wetter climate than we do
Probably a big part of it, that and temperature. Many years it never freezes here to kill the buggies that like the wood.
Recall in central IL that some simple oak gutters (90 degree nailed 1x4s) lasted over 30 years.
Hello
Isaw this post this morning but had to run off and am just now finding it again. I see there are lots of respones, so this may already be redundant..
I'll try to asnwer all those Qs in order.
For finish all I have ever done is linseed oil on the interior and paint on the exterior.. With today;s high quality latex paints, that should be pretty ideal.
When I get it delivered, I immediately oil the inside, then roll it upside down so the excess can bleed off and cure. Sometimes a second coat the following day and then a week to cure. Then a primer on the outside before cutting and installation.
I have done restoration work on the old ones too, using GitRot or other epoxies. I have thought of possiblty doing my next wood gutter by treating the inside with epoxy instead of oil. It seems to have lasted ten years anyways in the old ones I have done.
On the size and placement of your gutter, You do have a challenge there. We usually install the gutter first, then a strip over top of it that would ccorrespond to your rainboard at the top of your fascia. We put a bevel on the bottom of that strip to orrespond to the bevel you have on the top of the fir gutter, assuming it is the same pattern we get here. So this means I would first remove the strip you have there. That would give you room to elevate the gutter and have some facia showing below.
Alternatively, some of the older homes here have the wood gutter installed to the rafter tails and a tail trim equivalent to the fascia is then placed below the gutter. I don't know if you will have nailing enough to do that with only 2x6 rafter tials.
It is likely that with such small space, I might do away with that 1x2 rain drip edge altogether to raise the gutter to the shingle metal edge.
For your fitting and joinery. cut anywhere from a 30° to 45° joint and use PL premium in the joint and small stainless steel nails or trim head screws. On the top soide of that joint, inside the gutter where the water runs, rasp the wood down a bit before making the joint, then after the PL ures,lay a seam of FG tape and epoxy to span the joint. By having removed some material first, this extra build up does not reate a damn to slow water flow.
Yes do a mitre return at the ends and place a lead aulked and nailed on before lifting the gutter to fasten it to the house. I think you want two drops, one at each end. Drill the hole also before hanging the gutter up. It is easier to work with on saw horses than whil eyou are hanging from a ladder. Make sure the lead drop fits, then back it out and gouge around the hole inside again. Runaa bead of geocell caulk in the hole and around the top lip, then slide the drop back in from above.
I keep a chunk of 1-1/2" dowel handy to tunk and shape the lead to the gutter. When it fits, I place some three penny fine nails in the rim of the lead to hold it in place, and caulk over the heads of the nails.
We use the GRK stainless screws to hook things up to the house.
Copper would look good on that house and trim colour. Andy Stancioff ( Optimum Glass and Sheet Metal in Rockport - up behind the Fresh Off the Farm on Rt One) can make up whatever you need for that.
I would not use such large spacers. 3/16" would suffice
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Thanks for your thorough and informative response.
If I may, I'd like to just ask a couple quick follow-up questions:
I'm thinking maybe it's not such a good idea to leave the backside of the gutter unpainted. Seal it up just like the bottom and front?
What would you say a minimum pitch would be? I've been reading all kinds of varying rules of thumb on that.
Worry about keeping the gutter below the roof slope or in this particular situation not worry about it because of the narrow fascia?
What diameter lead drop? I'll do as you say and have one on each end.
Good call on Andrew Stancioff--he's a nice and very skilled guy, did a sweet job wrapping a half-circle piece of plywood in copper for the sunburst I did on the porch gable end. (http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=32829.31&search=y
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Edited 10/18/2007 11:15 pm ET by Megunticook
Edited 10/18/2007 11:20 pm ET by Megunticook
Not sure, but 1-1/2" is probably as big as you can go with this.Yes, I defintiely paint backside too.Pitch - as much as you can and still have it look decent. As long as it will flow, it will work.I only wory about keeping gutter below roof plane with flimsy stuff like plasmo, and metal roofs where the snow can slide off and take the gutter with it. Your wood gutter is soild and can handle stuff.
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I'll just add that I recently replaced a 32' fir gutter that was about 15 yrs old. The gutter was in salvagable condition but the downspouts were plugged and neglected causing the gutter to overflow. The gutter was attached directly to the pine facia with a 3" brass screw every 16". The HO called me because the gutter overflow had beat the paint off the wall below it, and also contributed to serious rot on two window casings/sills below the gutter. They were not aware that the facia behind much of the gutter was completely rotted away, along with much of the subfacia, as well as damage to a few rafter tails. It was a real mess. After repairing everything, I reinstalled new gutter with ss GRK screws. Latex paint on all sides of the gutter, cuprinol on the inside. Aluminum downspouts (white, to match the house trim), was able to salvage the old lead connectors for the downspouts. These were tapped and tacked into place and sealed with butyl gutter caulk. I didn't use spacers between the facia and gutter but I would have if the shingles had any overhang at all. The roof was done by hacks about 3 years ago and they barely ran the asphalt flush with the drip edge. Because the back of the gutter is so thick, if I had used spacers I was worried that rain would simply run down the facia behind the gutter. I think with regular inspection and maintenance they should be fine for a bunch more years.