Negotiating Price on Building Materials
CarletonPope
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hi,
I’m building a new house about an hour away from Calgary, Alberta.
I’m wondering what I can expect for a discount when it comes to negotiating with building suppliers. We have several in the area. So far, the best I’ve come up with is 10% off the retail on most items.
Of course, I would like the best deal possible, especially given this building recession.
I’m looking at DirectBuy for finish products, but they’re not much good for rough building materials.
Does anybody know what kind of percentage discount that builders are usually able to negotiate wth their lumberyard, or what the markup/profit margins of building suppliers look like?
Thanks very much!
-Carleton
Replies
Does anybody know what kind of percentage discount that builders are usually able to negotiate wth their lumberyard, or what the markup/profit margins of building suppliers look like?>>>>
Yep. and no.
Are you building it yourself or acting as the GC on this home ??
Hi,
Building it myself. for the most part, minus slab finishing, and a few other trades.
-Carleton
Since your project is a one shot venture for the yards you'll probably not get the same discount as a builder putting up 10 a year.
Negotiate for the best you can get.
You'd better hope some other DIY'ers read this. I have no idea why you would expect builders to give you any information that would help cut another builders throat.
You're going to save millions building it yourself, I am sure the savings on labor will more than offset any full freight you have to pay on materials. Vic
VMackey,
I'm not sure why you feel that my private negotiations with a building supplier somehow cuts the throat of local builders. It should make no different to them. They're not involved at all. This project is between me, my suppliers, and my bank...no for-profit builders involved. What's your problem there?
The best thing I can come up with is that you think I shouldn't be building the house myself, and that I should be using a local builder to do the work for me. If that's the case, then that's a shame. And it simply won't happen. If you liked cooking, why would you pay someone else to cook for you? Well, I like building, so why would I pay someone else to build for me?
-Carleton
Good luck with your project Carleton. We would enjoy seeing pictures of your progress if you're comfortable sharing them with us.
I agree with you there. Seemed like VM went off a little half cocked on you
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Why would you consider Direct Buy for anything? Do you think they have some sort of pixie dust that allows them to operate their business for less than anyone else? If you've already gotten 10% off retail you should thank your lucky stars and get it in writing. Quick.
Carleton,
The days of discounts at the local yard are a thing of the past and then they were never ever more than 10%. What we got as continuous users of their business was service. Don't #### them, they shouldn't #### you. That 10 you got for decent material delivered on time/no or small charge is absolutely a good deal.
Now, don't abuse the privelege. Order properly, pay promptly and expect to cull some of the lineal, use it for blocks and bracing. Study up, know what you're talking about and ask if you don't.
Most "deep discounts" for your home can be had from a good plumbing and electrical supply. Fixtures have some room to deal.
Direct buy is based on the myth that there IS a retail price that people pay. Deal with a good local business, forget the sweet taste of the low price-it sours quickly.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"forget the sweet taste of the low price-it sours quickly." I like that one!
I like that one!
Edited 3/17/2009 10:49 pm ET by jimAKAblue
Edited 3/17/2009 10:49 pm ET by jimAKAblue
"forget the sweet taste of the low price-it sours quickly." I like that one!
I like that one!>>>>>>>>>>>
Very good line!
I wasn't going to say anything about Direct Buy. I like to watch people try to save big and cut out the knowledgeable middle man. Vic
who knew you could be so elequent...No Tag
I drew some admiration outta Blue. Got some surprise from you.
But an elusive award from Rez almost always escapes me.
Is there any justice in this world?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
why not just pay the price, they need to make a living too. I know its nice to have extra money in your pocket but its nice to have a good business to buy from too. next time you bid a house, after you get it built and waiting for finally check the owner says, oh yea I took 10% off the price. see how you feel. Just embrace the suck and buy from the cheapest.Lowes had this beat any price by 10%. I bought this electrical box for ceiling fans at HD, like $2. I bougt all they had, needed one more Lowes had it for $8. I had the hd receips with me. it took two hour to get them to think about giving me the hd price and then they never would. It just not worth it. Buy the best quality for the price.
ask Best Buy for a catalogue to take home before you join , never met a club member with one
they seem to appeal a lot to the mercedes crowd who love to tell all they meet about their great savings even though you have to buy a yearly membership and all savings are based on the elusive list price
went to a potential clients house who was a member not long ago ( had his and her benzs )
he said the object of his finishing his basement was " TO make a statement "
wanted a 1/2 bath , bar like a hotel , spare bedroom with murphy bed , pool table area with appropiate lighting , niches in the walls etc
he was one of those computer business freaks
long story short when it came to money he was all show and no dough but he sure bragged about his Best Buy deals , dam flake
kitchen looked like a showroom not a crumb or normal item in sight ,i think they ate in the basement so as not to disturb the decor LOL
Do you buy your cars that way?
Hi Folks,
Thanks very much for all the feedback. Obviously a pretty contentious issue for some of you. A lot of great answers though. I really appreciate your time. I never thought there would be so much buzz with this post.
You've certainly all answered my questions very well though. It sounds like profit margins wth building suppliers are pretty modest. That's both good and bad for me to hear. Good, I don't have to worry about negotiating with them, and bad, I don't have to worry about negotiating with them. At least I know that I'm not getting screwed around.
I'm always wary of retail outlets, as some have huge markups, and let's face it, like most people, I like getting the best VALUE. I imagine that the posters who dispute my conviction of getting the best price for a certain commodity never frequent Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Bestbuy or Costco? If I can pay $2.50 for a block of Philly cream cheese at Superstore, why the hell would I pay $4.50 at the local supermart? Same principle applies to building supplies. They're all consummables.
Some basic info, my house is a walkout bungalow just over 1600 s.f., +600 s.f. of deck, with an attached 900 s.f. garage/shop. Way too big for my tastes, but you know the rule: Happy Wife, Happy Life.
This is an acreage build, so servicing costs are much higher, the house should look good from all sides (not just frontage), and of course, my budget is limited. I've formed the ICF basement and frostwalls, and most backfill is done, so I'm looking forward to framing (that's where the majority of my building experience lies) come May/June.
Problem is, there's an immense amount of labour in a project like this, and I don't want to build a house for free. It's fun, and a great learning experience, but I'd like to generate equity with my labour and trouble, just as a builder generates profit. In case there's any misunderstanding here, building is my passion, not just my weekend hobby, and I'm committed to doing it right.
The real estate market is finally getting weak here, but decent and "GREEN" building materials are still as expensive as ever. That's brought my total estimate for the house and servicing to CDN$250,000. Not including land. Granted, there's a lot of windows, but even that package (vinyl/tri-pane comfort TiR) is quoted at $25K. A quote for hydronic heat without any labour was $25K as well. This makes me wary of some suppliers.
I'm barely into my project, and already I've had a sub-trade and a supplier hit me with unexpceted costs. For example, I still can't figure out why I had to pay 6 hours for concrete pumping time, when he was only here for 3, travel for 1, and there were no issues. There's $300-$400 gone. An electrician (nice guy, but paperwork challengd) tried to bill me $500 for the privilege of dropping off a few supplies, and spending 1 hour putting conduit on some wires. Come on, we're talking trades...not lawyers here. If I wanted to get screwed and charged for photocopies, I'd go to HappyGoLucky LLP.
If this happens on every item in my budget, I'll be seeing the banker, and I'd rather not. Needless to say, I want to make sure this project is done right, both in terms of construction quality, but also financially. My boss, a red-haired beauty, is quality conscious as well, so I can't skimp and put in cheap linoleum as opposed to decent tile.
I'd often heard that a house is 50% materials and 50% labour/GC cost. Well, my ratio is significantly skewed from that! It looks more like 75/25 right now, if I get lucky and all goes as planned. Maybe this is the same boat everybody is in now? Perhaps the tradeoff for building well on your own home or on a spec house is just that you make less money per hour? Let me know your thoughts.
Bottom line: if I were a GC subbing out trades, I would lose my shirt on this house. maybe the problem is it's too nice a house for the area, although there are certainly comparables around.
For a look at a local property that scared me, check this site out: http://kneehillrealestate.com/properties/residential/three_hills/res_perreault1_front.html
Does anybody think they could build this house on a $60,000 lot and sell the whole thing for $400,000? Keep in mind, that's Canadian dollars. So, do you think you could build it with subtrades and sell the whole shebang for $300,000 US, and make a dime? If so, you must have some pretty cheap trades. Everybody here wants at least $50-$80/hour, and whoever originally built this house (about 15 minutes away) may have lost his shirt on it. I'd prefer not to repeat the performance.
Oh, and Frenchy, I'd love to hear your thoughts about saving money on a house. Please share, because I don't want to go into a recession with a hefty mortgage on my back.
Thanks again.
-Carleton
"Same principle applies to building supplies. They're all consummables."Wrong in your assumed premise. Building supplies are commodites, not consumables."I'd often heard that a house is 50% materials and 50% labour/GC cost."I'd be surprised if you heard that from many builders, even from one who had been around long.I think you are going to fall in love with renchy
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think you are going to fall in love with renchy
Don't tell me that Frenchy has a cousin that's a mechanic :)'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
You said renchy....hahahaha
I like it.
Carleton,"I imagine that the posters who dispute my conviction of getting the best price for a certain commodity never frequent Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Bestbuy or Costco? If I can pay $2.50 for a block of Philly cream cheese at Superstore, why the hell would I pay $4.50 at the local supermart? Same principle applies to building supplies."If you think the best prices always come from big boxes, you're already in trouble."Come on, we're talking trades...not lawyers here"Nice attitude, you think others should pay for your lack of planning and knowledge.Here's hoping you're a fast learner, good luck
Barry E-Remodeler
The cabs for a kitchen remodel I'm doing just got ordered. It took a month for the H.O. to realize that just because the economy is dragging, it doesn't mean everyone will work for free and everything is 50% off what it cost last year.You want to stay on budget? Have drawings and contracts for your subs. Have the wife shop hard for fixtures and coverings while you shop the window/door/millwork package. I've heard the same about DirectBuy... big money, marginal savings, zero service.$0.02 Jim
"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded"
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Edited 3/18/2009 6:19 pm ET by FNbenthayer
Piffin, you got me on the commodity vs consumables issue. I can't argue that. My point is simply that I want to find the best value in all situations. I don't like to give my money away anymore than anyone else does. In my situation with the house, that usually ends up being best price, as I don't have much in the way of trades to schedule, and I'm in no hurry. So if materials are late, I'll find something else to do in the meantime. Having said that, my supplier is pretty good that way anyhow, so I guess I have nothing to complain about with them.
As for the cost split between labour/materials in a house, perhaps it is just local in more recent history. We went through a crazy building boom here in the past several years, and the labour cost alone to frame a 2000 s.f. 2-story ended up at $11-14K. Assuming every trade made close to that much money (and that's what I assumed), then you're talking about some pretty high labour bills by the end of it all. To say nothing of what the GCs were making.
Slateman, thanks for the best wishes. I'll post a couple pics. I'm afraid I only have pre-pour and backfill photos, but you'll get the idea of what the project looks like. Pretty simple, with the exception of the walkout...not sure I'd do that again as a first build. What a pain. Nice result though.
Barry, trust me, I've looked at small retailers for good prices on all kinds of products. I've just always been disappointed. Even with my 10% off at my building supplier, it's still only the Home Depot price...if I'm lucky. But, that's where I will agree with some of the other posters, the guy I dealt with at my building supplier (before he left for another job) was very knowledgeable, and a good resource. But even he seemed overworked, and I had to review and correct his material takeoffs more than once.
As to knowledge and planning, I'm sorry, but I don't understand where you're going with that. But, let's assume I do. After all, that's why I'm here, right? Trying to pick the brains of older and more experienced people for useful information for my first build. You can't honestly think I'm doing this for my health. A few of the posters are far too crotchety to be my drinking buddies (present company excluded, of course). Perhaps I should keep my future posts to "how-to" construction only topics. ;) Even then, I think I'd be well advised to bring an umbrella to shield me from any heat-seeking #### that might randomly fall out of the sky.
FN, thanks for the post. Other than the obvious though, what's a HO?
All right, now to post those pictures, and wait for more #### to randomly fall out of the sky. I'm afraid my umbrella was packed for Spring.
Seriously though, I'd appreciate any useful and (preferably) non-combative advice on building this project, and actually having my labour bear some fruit within my market. Because right now, the options look pretty sparse, and work without pay makes Jack and unhappy boy. Have a look at the link, and let me know if there's any hope of making a profit with my house, or if I should just forget the idea of making money, and build my own house just for the fun of it.
-Carleton
Carleton,
Thanks for the pictures . You'll get some flak from the dial uppers on their size , but I had no issues with them.
You're getting a little hazing 'cause your new , but most just bark and don't bite.
Share more pics too as you progress if you're up to it.
Have a safe and happy build.
Walter
Hi Walter,
Thanks for the kind words. Sorry about the picture size...not sure how to change that.
Dial-uppers, I'm sorry, but I didn't know you still existed. I'll try to be more sensitive to your needs in future.
An aside, I have a sierra wireless internet stick. Same cost as dial-up, fits in your pocket, and it's more or less high speed. Works anywhere a cellphone does, and it's portable if you have a laptop. Just stick it into the USB hole in your computer, and voila...a 2 y.o. could figure it out. Look into it. We're in the country too, and used to have dial-up. It gives me shivers thinking about all the life I wasted waiting for screens to load.
But, to be sensitive, I will look into getting those pics downsized.
Okay, back to work...for real this time...
-Carleton
Carleton,
Thats the same system I have - we call it an " air card " here.
When you're ready to post more pictures we'll give you some tutorials.
Don't be scared off by some of the curmudgeons here .
We're looking forward to your progress.
I'll try the resize. Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
Thanks, but when you downsized them, you lost most of the trees. Check under your monitor for a pile of kindling.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Carleton
Are you related to Carlton Sheets? Long time no money down RE guy. Infomercials all the time. <G>
Good luck on your house.
The deal you heard on the take your material cost and double it for your total cost is an old carps tale. Maybe somewhere once it worked, someplace. But, as a rule of thumb it doesn't work. But the tale is out there. I've heard it probably from the sixties.
Enjoy building your house. It will cost what it costs. A GC will have pricing power with trades and suppliers. Just do the best you can. Written contracts with your trades will put you ahead of 80% of the GCs. And some trades will bump your price. You will make mistakes on this house and there will be redo work. Trades know that. And take that into account.
I built my first house in mid 80s. Working a full time job and then worked on the house after. Was dead tired by the end. Put some special touches in that will make it yours. I see that as the main benefit of doing it yourself. You can afford some extra labor (it's free!) to do some nice things.
Good luck
Carleton, Frenchy offers good advice on PEX and a few other matters, but building with local lumber is pretty dicey. I've built in three states, and each uses the US code, the IRC. The IRC requires all structural lumber to be grade stamped, which isn't easy to find from local mills. Frenchy lives somewhere in a hinterland where that's not a problem. I'm not at all sure about Canadian codes, but I'd guess they're at least as strict as ours.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Here Andy is wrong.. if you read the building code there is always provisions for local lumber.. you might have to dig them out which is what I did.. I found chapter and verse that allows it and then I dug around to find where specific wood meets requirements..
It's there you don't have to buy from lumberyards you simply have to meet those standards.. Incidentally it's relatively easy to meet the standards of SPF wood because they are so low in relation to many hardwoods..
Plus since you are working with actual sizes and not nominal there is greater strength in a real 2x4 than in a 1 1/2 x3 1/2 !
(just for example.)
Since the price of sawmill lumber is so cheap it's extremely easy to go up in size by a lot to eliminate any question..
I'm not in the hinterlands.. Andy! I live in a city that is extremely tightly controlled..Homes in the millions are normal and tens of millions not all that unusual..
We have more building inspectors per person than Mpls or St Paul! (about 1 per 2000 residents!) in addition the plans must meet staff approval which includes a city manager, a planner director and his assistant, and the city engineer..
Nothing slides by these people!
I've been in Minneapolis twice in the past two years for JLC Live. Love your downtown, and there are a couple of great breakfast restaurants - Hell's Kitchen is one, and the other's name I forget, but it's on the first floor of the Foshay Building (Which is a very cool building). Didn't realize you were in the metro area.
I've had the grade stamp conversation with any number of inspectors, one quite recently. While a local inspector might okay it, in my experience they insist on grade stamps for habitable buildings. Could be a local thing, though. I'm rednecked enough to agree that if you want to build from local, un-graded material, you should. No question that the design values of hardwoods generally exceed those of softwoods. Personally though, I'd want to be sure whoever was using such timbers understood, for example, the effect of an edge knot on the tension capacity of the bottom of a joist or a beam.
One thing I was told at the most recent show I did in MSP was that most builders don't put vapor barriers under slabs there. Is that true? I was stunned to hear that because that's been sop everywhere else for twenty or thirty years. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Hopefully Jon's posting to me solved the issue.. I have a tough building inspector known far and wide for his demanding requirements.. (at least he's tactful about it) So I did my homework in advance and had plenty of referance books with me and had memorised chapter and verse of the relavent data.
Once he understood I actually knew what I was talking about and had sufficent verifiable sources to back up my statements he relaxed and let me proceed.. a few progress inspections convinced him of my tendancy to overbuild and not cut corners and we had a very pleasant relationship.
I believe most building inspectors aren't really aware of the provisons in the building code which is why you are getting so much across the board rejection of the idea out of hand.. Plus there is a certain amount of CYA to those who really aren't confident with the whole DIY thing..
The potential exists for abuse though. If you get a sawmill who sells 2D's for example and someone were to use them in a structural application you're darn right there would be an issue.. Ungraded/mill run wood still must be selected for proper application..
No I've noticed most builders put vapor barriers underslabs. Since I viewed so many homes in progress that's probably accurite throughout the metro area .. In the rural areas I didn't notice it as much though..
I'm glad to know about the slabs. My comment was based on comments from a handful of people, and you've probably observed more construction min MN than I have.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
One thing I was told at the most recent show I did in MSP was that most builders don't put vapor barriers under slabs there>>>>>>>>>.
The same around here. It was done for awhile and the practise stoped.
I have tried to find out why, but so far, just a blank look when I asked!
sometimes it causes problems. A crew that uses too much water will see it float to the top and make finishing harder to do, waiting longer and potential scaling so the VB gets the blame instead of poor mix.And in a hot climate, the top can cure too quick unless they keep it misted and covered so the slab can curl up like a drying leave in the fall. Again, not really the VB to blame, but it can't stand up for itself. It just lays there and gets walked all over.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A lot of concrete guys don't like it because the excess water has to all evaporate instead of drain away. Tough, I say. Place the concrete stiffer - it's better that way.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Frenchy,
I for one am tired of you stating things from your memory and considering them to be infallible.
So, because I'm such a good guy, I found the IRC section you keep talking about:
"R104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction
and equipment. The provisions of this code are not
intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit
any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed
by this code, provided that any such alternative has
been approved. An alternative material, design or method of
construction shall be approved where the building official finds
that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the
intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material,
method orwork offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the
equivalent of that prescribed in this code. Compliance with the
specific performance-based provisions of the International
Codes in lieu of specific requirements of this code shall also be
permitted as an alternate.
R104.11.1 Tests. Whenever there is insufficient evidence of
compliance with the provisions of this code, or evidence
that a material or method does not conform to the requirements
of this code, or in order to substantiate claims for
alternative materials or methods, the building official shall
have the authority to require tests as evidence of compliance
to be made at no expense to the jurisdiction. Test methods
shall be as specified in this code or by other recognized test
standards. In the absence of recognized and accepted test
methods, the building official shall approve the testing procedures.
Tests shall be performed by an approved agency.
Reports of such tests shall be retained by the building official
for the period required for retention of public records."
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks Jon
I appreciate that.. I'll try to bookmark this so I can refer back to it in the future..
Please note that by over specing materials you can eliminate the need for testing.. Another words, If standard construction requires a 2x10 and if you use a 2x 12 you gain enough to eliminate any queastion of strength.
When you look up the numbers on ash for example and compare it with SPF you have a significant strength advantage going in.. add the actual size gains over demensional sizes and even the most skeptical building inspector becomes tolerant..
For the nominal costs involved in up sizing with the gains in strength and confidense a building inspector will have it's very poor economics to build to the minimum.
Hey Piffin, thanks for the correction. Your idea makes more sense. I had just seen that manufactured strips of subflooring, like Quik Trak, were just 1/2" plywood routed with grooves for PEX, and then an aluminum plate on the bottom. I just assumed that was the way to do it. Thanks for noticing and suggesting something better. ;)
My only question is, by putting the heat transfer plates on top of the plywood/OSB furring strips, will the aluminum's thickness cause any problem with regard to installing the finished flooring? For example, if I'm putting an engineered floor on top, I figure that a flat surface is pretty important. Perhaps I'd have to put 1/4" plywoood or something on top of the transfer plates? I have no idea how thick the plates are.
I've done an electric radiant heat cable installation under tile (for my wife's dog kennel...hehe, the dogs have radiant heat before I do), but I have no experience with hydronics. Yet.
Calvin, thanks for the tips. If you can find those photos, that would be awesome. Do you know how much your friend is paying for the heat transfer plates? Are they grooved for PEX, or are they just strips of flat aluminum? If I could use flat strips, I wonder if I could save a lot of money by buying bulk aluminum somewhere and cutting my own strips.
Ordinarily, I'd like to use a manufactured product like Quik Trak, instead of putting everything together myself. But, for 1600 s.f., I'm looking at $7000 of Quik Trak, plus my labour. The price is the same for a Calgary-based contractor to pour a 1.5" gypsum overlay. If my floor system could handle it, it would be a lot cheaper to have a local contractor pour/place a 3" concrete slab! Not doing that though.
In addition to a dry system, I do like gypcrete. Enough thermal mass to be efficient, but perhaps not too much to be impossible to heat up and cool down quickly. In Alberta, where I live, mountain chinooks frequently cause the outdoor termperature shift 30 or 40 degrees in one day during the winter...in both directions.
Does anyone have any ideas if a guy can do his own gypcrete pour? I laughed when someone first suggested to me that I get a few hefty friends, a bunch of 5 gallon buckets, and mix/pour my own gypcrete, probably between sleepers. But, after getting a quote of $7000+ for some sexy white mud and day's work, I'm not laughing anymore. Does anyone have suggestions about this option, and what gypcrete is composed of and where to get the raw materials?
Thanks again to everybody and all their great suggestions.
-Carleton
regular baseboard hyrdronic heat has a lot of advantages for your climate with fast temperature swings compared to an in floor radiant with no thermal mass, cost savings being one of them, and the title of your thread suggests that cost is a high concern for you. So I was just suggesting that the way you were considering the floor heat was not cost effective, IMO.When we use it under wood floors, it is usually staple up from underneathe which puss the plates in direct contact with the subfloor.The plates are no thicker than a dollar bill, but a smooth surface is important for engineered flooring, tho you would probably be using a cushion felt backing or roll out underlayment for it.It's good to know that when your wife sends you to the doghouse, you can at least sleep on a warm floor, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll try to remember to ask him the cost of the transfer plates-he may have just ordered them-he takes his time on progress.
The plates are dished out to rcv. the hose-it snaps into the groove I've been informed. Not sure how they deal with the loops, didn't see those pcs but we did use a template for the turns (which may explain the non judicious use of material in the layout.
When we did our slab, I'm thinking the hose (not pex) could accomodate a 6'' radius.;A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"Please note that by over specing materials you can eliminate the need for testing.. Another words, If standard construction requires a 2x10 and if you use a 2x 12 you gain enough to eliminate any queastion of strength. "
You certainly may practically eliminate questions of strength by overbuilding, but from the code's point of view it couldn't care less. Replace a required 2"x10" by an 8"x8" and it will not pass without an engineers stamp.
You clearly haven't read what Jon posted to me.. IT says right in the code what is allowed and that includes alternative materials.. such as sawmill wood..
A couple of salient points:
The OP asking for advice lives in Canada, so your code interpretations are less than helpful for him.
Even within the parameters of the (your) code quoted by Jon, the need for testing is not eliminated simply because you think you have oversized a structural member.
fingersandtoes,
I suspect like all codes they have similar provisions..
The oversizing greatly increases the load capacity of members thus removing any question of adequacy. Which is the only reason to justify testing..
But you can hide behind stamps and labels if they make you feel better..
Mind you some of the most durable wooden structures have no stamps or approval attached with them. Only recently has the minimum standard become the norm..
You suspect wrong. So counselling someone in Canada to use saw mill lumber, or substituting timbers for dimension lumber, without knowing that they will be requiring the services of both a lumber grader and a professional engineer is not doing them any favours.
I mean I am certain I saved a ton of money building my place but on the other hand it's taken me 10 years of my life to do so..
It's possible Carleton has something planned for the rest of his life that doesn't involve arguing with the local Building Dept about the benefits of using un-graded materials.
Joe H
convincing the building inspector to allow my selection of timbers took maybe 15-20 minutes.. prep work took me several hours. (and the purchase of a couple of referance books)..
The difficulty was I bought a house the cities planning director wanted to buy and he made me pay for it....
Hey,
Piffin, your idea for baseboard radiators is good, but I don't think my wife would let me get away with it. I think I'm stuck trying to find some economical variant of in-floor heat. I have also heard about these things called ultra-fins, which clip onto PEX tubing that's suspended between joists. But I understand they serve mainly to create convection in the joist bays, which then warms the floor above? That just sounded strange to me though, because as you mention, radiant heat is based more of conduction and radiation, right?
My apologies that I do assume things, my friend. I try to be as accurate as possible. I'm afraid I don't have the breadth of experience, or the length of existence, that you and some of the other posters have on me. ;)
As to the doghouse, I must admit that I didn't much argue her idea for radiant heat in there...for reasons you already brought to light. Now if the beerfridge would go out there without blowing a circuit, what more would a man need?
I sheepishly admit that you're right about "oopsies." My deck footings, ahhh...didn't go so well. Basement footings and ICFs went fine, but I'm afraid I used these bell-shaped bigfoot forms and sonotubes for 10 deck footings. Well, I quickly learned that manufacturer's specs for attaching the tubes to the footings forms were not adequate in any way. Moreover, I also learned a little big about the fluid pressure of concrete pushing up on something that isn't held to the ground well enough. Needless to say, a valuable lesson learned, and luckily, probably only cost $1000, and I budgeted for a few of those in the project. This is why someone else will be finishing my slabs. ;) How do you normally pour deck footings, that need both a pad and a pier? Do you pour the two separately, or have any good ideas about doing a monopour? My site is very hard to access, so a pump is easiest, but of course, the basic charge for pumping makes me want to do everything in one shot, so I like the idea of the monopour. Would have saved a lot of money already if I didn't though. ;)
Calvin, thanks for checking into your friend's radiant project. Really appreciate it.
As to Directbuy, thanks very much to fingersandtoes for the tip about the CBC Marketplace report on it. I will 100% be tuning in for that.
Jim, thanks for the advice on saving/spending money. I am trying to look at ways of really curbing costs, but maintaining quality with the house. This is a tough trade-off. For example, I'm not sure the economics as yet, but I figured that having an acid-stained basement slab might save a lot of money over purchasing and installing enough decent tile to cover 1600 s.f.
I notice some of the posters think that I'm trying to GC, and have a bunch of subs do a lot of the work. My financial issue isn't really with subs...because I don't have many. But yes, if I did, I agree, I find it quite financially painful to build my own house, as opposed to having a local builder do it. I've had maybe five quotes from different sub-trades, and they all come in at between $1000-$3000/day of labour. Granted, on the higher end, that involves a couple guys and a Bobcat, but let's face it, a Bobcat is only $200/day to rent. Tops. So, whether or not the contractors are justified in charging the higher prices for a HO isn't really my concern on this project...I simply don't have the money, or don't want to pay it. Hence, I'm trying to do it all myself. Doing it this way, it isn't probable to lose money on the project, as 90% of all my costs lie in materials and servicing. But at the same time, I'd rather not work for free. I don't imagine anyone here likes working for free. I like my work, but it's not my life. Lately, my life has been talking to you fine folks. ;) My wife is starting to get jealous. Watch out for redheads. There be dragons.
Hey Shoemaker, great post. I'd be really interested in hearing more about your experience with your build.
I'm in the country, 1 hour North-East of Calgary, near towns called Three Hills and Linden (yep, bumpkinville). Not many conveniences, but it's niiiiice and quiet.
I certainly love the idea of ICF all the way up. Shame though, but nobody would cut me deals on larger purchases. Talked to the concrete and ICF suppliers. Price was the same no matter the quantity. And for better or worse, framing/housewrap/insulating/VB is still a lot cheaper, when labour is free. Oh, and our window design was already done based on a wood frame house. According to the ICF books, we didn't have large enough columns between many of the windows to support to loads, in concrete. Of course, in wood, there's no issue. I'm sure an engineer could have figured something out, but again, more $$$.
I've seen the kind of interior window treatment you're talking about. It looks slick. Congrats to you for doing all that. As for passive solar and overhangs, I've taken that into consideration a bit, but my site was pretty brutal...there's only so many places you could put the house, for a thousand different reasons. And with the house having been designed before I read up on passive solar. Well, you do the math. ;) Nevertheless, the windows are all going to be super energy efficient, so as I understand, they kill something like 80% of solar heat gain. According to the manufacturer's books.
Hehe, I've heard stories about some local flatwork and concrete contractors as well. Sounds pretty grim, but that's what happens in a building boom. I hope we have good concrete slab finishers here, and they only charge $.90/s.f., so that seems like a bargain to me.
Mind you, that's concrete, not gypcrete. I tend to agree with you on trying it room-to-room. For that matter though, I wonder what kind of pump they use to pump it into the house. I have a bobcat here, and other than the pump, it sounded like that was the only other thing the gypcrete guys would bring. I'll have to look more into doing my own gypcrete pour if I want to go with a wet system.
Bottom line, I'm 25, and my wife's 20. It would be nice to be in this house forever, but I don't feel comfortable spending an extra $100-$150k doing everything exactly the way we want it...because the local country market simply wouldn't ever return us the money if we had to sell the property. Between ICFs, stucco, stone, a conventional in-floor radiant heat system, and all the other perks we would want without compromising, we'd be breaking the budget. I want to build a quality home, but one that I can also get my money back out of if I have to leave it.
Ideally, I would have built much closer to the city. Properties there can almost go as high as the builder wants them to. But at $300,000 for an unserviced 3 acre flat parcel...if you're lucky...that simply wasn't an option.
-Carleton
ah to be young again : i bought my first place when i was 32 after having been a asistant plant manager in a mfg facility which i quit after having been at it for 6 years
there was nothing i dident do beeing self employed from grave digging to building houses from the hole in the ground to the roof
i own all the tools finally and am now bored doing most of the work
broke a few bones along the way also but i think i was determined to hire very few so i could save my way to wealth & today im not sure i was successful
tried retiring at 50 to a winter home in Fiorida but was bored as i found most people were not very ambitious there and that bored me also
these days i keep busy doing work for other people who are determined to save a buck and there fore spend twice as much as the projected savings
one comes to mind building a $25 ,000 deck on a 900 sq ft house , been off & on it for last 2 years just needs the lower level benches to be completed when the owner finally gets the brackets completed at some buddys place to save money
this guy should be able to save money as he is a accountant and tighter than the bark on a tree and double checks everything
shure was nice that he supplied the plastic decking from Home Depot seeing as how its delaminating and the manufacturor went bankrupt but he did save $ 3000 over my supplier
having been the biggest local DIY i can relate to people who try the same thing
I learned early on its hard to beat people who have been in a game for many years as they seem to know everyway the rat can run and just wait for it to wear out before nailing it
the previous is just my 2 cents on life condensed
Carleton
I installed some Quik Trak a few years back, so they maybe different now. You are right, the Q.T. I did was just 2, 3" strips of 1/2" plywood with a peice of shiny tin holding them together.
The tin goes down so the pex can go in between, the plumber used a malet to get the pex in the track. Was totally shocked when told the cost for just 2 peices of plywood and tin, 4yrs ago shipped here it was $13.
These would not be hard to make and the $ $avings would be at least 50% of that $7000. The rolls of pex come in 350' lengths so that`s how far one run would be, out from and back to the manifold. Some planning needed for sure.
As for lumber, the price is low and the quality is high right now, due to the slow exports south. It`s a long drive over that Rocky Wall to pickup lumber. When I built I used a local guy who air dried then planed it, was good lumber but it still shinks differently. Not a big deal for me cause I knew I was not going to finish for fews yrs.
Maybe go to a few lumber yards and look at the lumber and note where it comes from, company and which mill, Canfor Houston is producing a nice product right now.
Dog house with heat and beer, add the big screen, why build?
This has more info about DirectBuy.http://www.ratethatcompany.com/Ratings/ViewRatings.aspx?co=4561254 Ratings I'm posting this this just to give more info, you may want to stay away from them.
concerning your thermal mass pouraround here we have what i think is called a grout truck - a might bit cheaper than the big pumper and definitely more amenable to "custom" type projects like yours
2" ID hose improves maneuverability dramatically, smaller footprint
may be one near you
Hi,
Thanks for all the good comments, guys.
Mike, I checked with the insulation company (Can-Cell Industries). They have a Weathershield and WallBar product. Weathershield is apparently fluffier, for attics. The Wallbar is their dense pack product, and contains some glues and what not, but they and their retailers won't sell to me, as I'm not a "licensed installer." It's my house, why should it matter? They did say that the blower machinery needs to be more powerful than what most rental shops have, and like for your Mooney Wall (good idea, btw), the hose needs a smaller end nozzle.
Do you still use a standard attic cellulose product, and pack it in tighter, or a specialized wall product? It sounds like Regal Wall is made specially for stud bays. Maybe I'll have to see if there are any other cellulose suppliers around. Can-Cell is the only one I've ever seen around here, but Home Depot had some bags from some other manufacturer last time I was there.
Ed, thanks for the tips. I was thinking about just doing a double bottom plate for the 1.5" pour. I saw that done while working on a multi-family project once. We'll probably be going with floating engineered wood over most of the main floor, with about 20% tile and 20% carpet. For the basement, I'm just hoping to leave it as concrete, maybe coloured, and look into learning about acid staining or something interesting like that. As for getting the concrete into the house, undetermined as yet. IF the truck can back up to the front door (might be too high for his chute, I don't know), then I would like to just wheelbarrow it around. Otherwise, yep, pump was my other option, and yeah, I know how fast they go...would need to enlist a bit of help for screeding/trowelling.
You were wondering about servicing...We're about 1 hour out of Calgary here, and not bad for services. But it is the country. No garbage pickup in the country, of course, so we have to burn, recycle, or take things to the dump. Phone is fine, and I have the line trenched in, but I want to try internet phone anyway. I don't get along with the local telecom company (Telus). No cable, but of course, satellite tv is always around. Other than Flames hockey, I don't watch tv, and neither does the wife...got the bunny ears though. ;) Internet is great. Satellite is available, but we have a fixed wireless tower 1 kilometer away, and it sends out a much better signal at a much better price. Electrical service goes right by the house, but it still cost me $8000 for a pole on the corner of the property, then another $3000 or so to run the service up to the house underground with 0000 wire. We have a fine well at the site, but the county has decided to bring municipal water from 1 hour away to each and every rural dwelling. That's going to be a lovely $6000 tax bill...not including how much it costs to get the water from the road to the house. I already roughed in the appropriate water line from the road to my house though, so it shouldn't be too hard to hook up. I wish they had brought sewer out instead. It's non-existent, so I'm going to put in a septic field. But of course, there's likely to be all kinds of rock 4-6 feet down, which functions as an impervious layer, and the plumbing inspector doesn't like that for a dispersal field. Damn, there's a lot of stuff to learn to build your own house. Especially in the middle of nowhere!
John, great idea about the grout truck. I'll have to check into that. It would sure be nice.
CJM, thanks for the links to DirectBuy reviews. I'll have a read.
As for the radiant on the main floor of the house, I just got gypcrete priced at $28/bag (80 lb. bag). Supplier told me to mix it equal proportions with 3-5 mil washed sand, and add 3.5 gallons water to that. Having said that, this would still bring my install price to $3000-$4000. Concrete is still WAY cheaper, and easier to get mixed. Does anyone have any more comments regarding whether gypcrete or concrete is a better way to go? So far, I like the sleeper idea, as the floor should be very level overall. I'm nervous about slabs, as I'd be surprised if they ended up nice and flat like a new lumber subfloor. Non-flat surfaces make laying flooring a pain.
-Carleton
carleton... cellulose is pretty much cellulose
it sounds like Can-Cel is selling an installed product designed for damp spray
as far as cellulose goes... there are two basic kinds:
one ( the cheaper product ) uses amonium sulfate as the chemical fire retarder
the better products use borates as the chemical fire retarder
we use only the borate product and we buy it from our distributor who gets it from the mfr. : National Fiber out of Massachusetts
http://www.nationalfiber.com/
there are many regional cellulose mfr's , most selling thru distributors....
I have bought some things from Regal Industries... another good mfr.
most rental machines have the power to blow dens pak... the real trick is having an air valve at the machine that allows you to change the ratio of air to cells..... you want a lot of air and not much cells to blow dens-pak
whereas... in an attic blow you want just enough air to make the cells flow thru the hose
there are a lot of guys on this site that blow their own cells... some own blowers , some rentMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike,
Believe it or not, Can-Cell's WallBar product isn't a damp-spray. It's just a different formulation of cellulose that they claim is much better for dense packing. Except of course, they won't sell it to me, because they're afraid I might not install it properly. For anyone interested, their website is http://www.can-cell.com They do have damp-spray stuff too, but that's not really an option for me, I don't think. Not that they would sell that to me either!
Thanks for the note on treatments. Can-Cel's products are borate treated, but it's good to know what to look for!
Perhaps I'll just make sure I can dense pack this company's other cellulose product, and do it that way. Otherwise, I guess I'm back to rockwool batts. >:(
I'll check out the links, and will keep doing my research. Thanks for the info!
-Carleton
doesn't appear that you read it either. It clearly says that the local guy can require engineering if there is the slightest doubt.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin it doesn't use the word slightest doubt. that is your interpitation.. Here's where being a professional salesman helped me and I can help others.
To prevent doubt from creeping in I was prepared with referance books that proved my case.. (in sales parlance that's called anticipation of an objection) I had the relavent data bookmarked and I was quickly able to flip to it and cite it..
We aren't speaking about questions of safety here. Merely eliminating any possible question prior to it becoming an unsurmountable hurdle.. Mind you I suggested that the builder go well beyond what is required because the cost is so nominal.
Any responsible home owner/ contractor should be willing to spend a tiny bit more to provide a significantly stronger, safer house.. (and to eliminate any need for additional costs in the form of obstruction)..
Mind you I have always said to approach your local building inspector with respect. Tact tells you that you provide the correct information not as a way to prove him wrong merely additional information that he may have overlooked..
Frenchy,You have remodeled your house and have dealt with the building department and inspectors, so I will grant you that experience.However, it is clear to me that you have not had the pleasure of working with inspectors who love the letter of the code and are seemingly incapable of grasping the spirit of the code.If some guys in the building departments that we work with have the "slightest" doubt, they will turn you down. Many are reasonable, but some want to be 100% sure or they will not stick their neck out.The code section I quoted states: "Whenever there is insufficient evidence of compliance with the provisions of this code", so unless you can show an inspector/plan reviewer a span table proving that ash 4x12's with no grade stamp will span 19' with a given loading criteria, some will not accept your plans.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
That's why I spent over a $100 for a book. I forget what the tittle is but it has just such a table in it and it's the source book for all the tables in building codes..
It takes away the concern.. and allows the building inspector to use a reputable, verifiable source for his decision.. Thus taking any responsibility away which is why some building inspectors are such sticklers..
Incidentally I got that little tidbit from an friendly architect.
One caviot. Your approach needs to be correct or even with all the stamps and approvals in the world you can get into trouble. I've seen builders argue it out with inspectors and invariably they lose not because they are wrong but they put the inspector on the defencive to start with.
I found it's far better to approach inspectors with deferance to the fact that for better or worse they have final approval of everything.. While they don't want to sit there and discuss nail by nail every detail in a house they will gladly tell you what concerns they focus on and how to comply..
Edited 3/23/2009 9:29 am ET by frenchy
"Works anywhere a cellphone does"You might not believe this, but there are places in America where cell phones don't work, in spite of those commercials representing the opposite POV
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Look out, the sky sheet is falling already.
Those pics are waaaaaaaaaaaay too big for me on dial up out here in the boonies.
Piffin too is a dial upper, just cuz he's too old to figure out that high speed stuff, but still he's a guy you want looking at your stuff for input.
There's a bunch of info on posting pics here, but I don't use that program so can't give you the name except for starts with an I, Infra view or something.
Joe H
Irfan view is the one, but any photo editing program can do it. If somebody has a camera and the software that came with it, they have the ability and the instructions in the help file to figure it out.But Irfan is one of the easier ones and is free. I brought that recommendation in here from the SPLASH CAD forum a long time ago now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
HO is a home owner.
You've got less snow out there than we do here : ) .
Contracting the house yourself will be challenging. You can, of course, get lots of good advice here. Sometimes we even agree with each other. I suspect your biggest problem may be to find reliable subs.
Edited 3/18/2009 9:43 pm ET by sisyphus
Oh, and Frenchy, I'd love to hear your thoughts about saving money on a house. Please share,
Frenchy isn't here, so I'll tell you his secret.
Buy your 12" x 12" x 20' black walnut beams direct from a local mill. Should be about 6 cents BF.
Oak is cheaper, so you might want to use that for your framing lumber.
That's about it for the Frenchy secrets, and make sure you don't insulate with cellulose, your whole house will turn to a mulch pile.
Joe H
Since you've already done ICF's Think of how easy it will be to keep on going with them right up to the roof line.. There's some pretty decent labor savings there. second go find a local sawmill.. I saved a fortune on my house by eliminating all the middle men that handle lumber..
Give you an idea.. a railroad tie sells for $20.00 (US) and that's 9"x7"x 8 1/2 feet, made from hardwood.. How much would a similar sized piece of wood cost from a lumberyard or Home Depot?
pallet wood. (again Hardwood like oak/ash etc.) sells for 15 cents a bd.ft. which is less than you pay for sheetrock..
So make your studs etc. from say ash which is relatively easy to nail into while green and will dry out at about the same pace as the wood you buy from the lumberyard.
OK you're walls will be 1/2 thicker but so what! You might also replace some interior walls with wood since it will be cheaper than sheetrock.. Buy yourself one of those cheap benchtop planners and a rounter and you can do wonders!
Plus it will add a whole lot of value to the home not to mention it's probably a lot easier to put up than a sheet of sheetrock..
For subflooring you can use 1x material and spend a lot less than 3/4 inch plywood.. In fact I used 2X material and that was still cheaper than 3/4 inch plywood.. Plus a whole lot easier to haul around than plywood sheets are.. Here's my numbers.. 1x material costs $6.40 for select 32 sq.ft. (4x8 sheet is 32 sq.ft.) 2x material cost me $12. 80 my subflooring is Tamarack a wonderful wood that is a real beauty all by itself
Try to buy a 3/4 inch sheet of plywood for $12.80!
If you ignore your own labor you can make hardwood flooring for a fraction of what you can buy it for.. depending on your local sawmill you can get pieces of wood up to 22 inches wide. I know another sawmill capable of making 48 inch wide planks.. (it's got a top and bottom blade)..
To find these prices go find your local pallet mill. Ask them where they get their wood from ..
Next heating!
Forget forced air.. think in floor radiant. Simple to do with Pex and some staple up aluminum..(I don't use a stapler I use a roofing nailer much faster and easier!) there are places that will do the calculations for you. Sell you the stuff you can't buy locally. (I suggest advantec who advertizes here)
Same with plumbing (at least you won't hack the floor joists apart like they will.. )
Pex is an affordable, workable, proven system.. Whole lot easier to do than PVC there are more if you're interested..
Hi Folks,
Thanks for all the great pointers. By the way, all the prices in this post are CDN. A CDN dollar is about $.70 US, give or take. I don't pay attention to currency fluctuations anymore.
Scrapr, I liked what you had to say, but no, I'm not related to Carleton Sheets. What's your first name? Are you related to everyone with the same first name too? I didn't know we had posters from West Virginia here. ;) Okay, that was a low blow...apologies to anyone from West Virginia. Hehe.
Do you still build houses? Any way that you think I could make much in the way of sweat equity doing almost all of the trades on the house?
Frenchy, where to start...yes, please keep posting your ideas for building economically. They're really unique, and and that's great.
ICFs all the way up. Love the idea, makes a much better build than stick framing, but also makes another $15-20,000 dent in my pocket. I had to give up on that idea in the early stages of planning. :( But not too many tears shed; I like framing.
Great ideas on the sawmill. I'll have to check that out...might have to go to BC for the nearest one though...the Prairie is pretty devoid of trees. So far though, lumber seems really cheap...it's the trusses and engineered floor that are priced high. $4k for the I-joists on 1600 s.f. I suppose the more manufacturing in a product, the greater the cost. Maybe I should look into 2x10 joists, eh? Probably save few grand, just don't see it done anymore.
Radiant heat, I'm with you all the way. I'll check out Advantec, thanks. On that note, an observation...I noticed there seemed to be some contention from the owner of Warmboard in this month's FHB over last month's article on radiant heating. That's too bad, because although the article probably did have some omissions, it gave me all kinds of awesome ideas I never knew about. If memory serves, I figured warmboard would have cost $15,000 alone for the house, before the $25,000+ of mechanicals...oh yeah, and then add on whatever labour's worth. So, Warmboard's market is obviously a pretty wealthy one. For the rest of us who'd like radiant heat without a second mortgage, I really enjoyed last month's article, so good on the author. Anyway, that's my rant for the day.
Still on the topic of radiant heat, I'm for sure going to put it in both my garage and basement slabs. That's a no-brainer. On the main floor though (bungalow), I had heard about a system whereby you run your PEX directly on the subfloor, then fur the subfloor up between the pipes with appropriate sized plywood strips (could probably use OSB too). Apparently, a company sells plastic plates with U-shaped grooves for the switchbacks in the pipe runs. If you were router handy, I guess you could make your own, but that sounds like a pain. Although still no thermal mass with this system, if I put heat transfer plates under the PEX, the water temperature shouldn't have to be too high to keep the main floor warm. Let's face it, 3/4" of lumber subfloor is an awful conductor. And my favourite part of this, is that I don't have to work 10' over my head between joists. ;) Anybody familiar with this system? Comments?
Piffin, glad you're enjoying my sense of humour. It doesn't always come out to play, but postings from the odd disgruntled codger playing a crotchety housewife got my fur up. I just couldn't resist the urge to come out and play. The first series of replies to my initial question were anything but a warm welcome to Breaktime. You seem like a nice guy though.
Thx for the tip on photos. I'll make sure to do that in future.
As to cell phones not working...well, please let me know where that is. I hate those damned things. But I do like the wireless card, so I guess it's a fair tradeoff.
Andy, thanks very much for your good tips, and discourse with Frenchy. By the way, I really like your articles. Among others, I read your ICF article a couple times before I put my basement together. Tres cool. I have the newest FHB open to your article on winders right now, but I'm afraid that this topic might be too finnicky for me. ;) I'm looking forward to someone dropping off stairs ready for me...assuming the price is right. ;) Otherwise, I'll be working on becoming a master stair builder, ha.
Popawheelie, any ideas why you can't make money building your own house? I guess where I'm coming from, is I'm looking at the average $500,000 house in the Calgary market, and there's at least $150,000 of labour in it. Then the GC has to make some money too, so there's obviously some pretty hefty labour/contracting bills and room for a little guy to manoeuvre. So...I'm wondering what part of the picture I'm missing here. Granted, the market has softened, so the big profits in spec building have evaporated for the time being, and maybe it's just as simple as that.
Jason, thanks for the great ideas. I'll have to check out e-bay for some products.
GC'ing and doing some work on your own house, how much money do you think you saved over having a builder do everything for you?
On Directbuy, I'm simply curious. I walked away from their pushy sales presentation once. Liked the promises, didn't like the hard-sell and secrecy. Having said that, in the past couple years, I've met different people in the ordinary course of life who say they've saved a fortune renovating, building, etc. There's obviously a lot of contention with Directbuy. If I do ever end up getting a membership, I'll be sure to report back here on what the real deal is with them. There's no "his/her Mercedes" here. Just a safe utility vehicle and an old work truck, so I don't have much socialite image to protect. ;)
Generally, how much do trades charge these days in all of your guys' areas? What it works out to per hour would be nice. It sounds like labour might be cheap to come by. Although I keep hearing about this recession here, so far, I haven't seen labour quotes go down. It's still very steep here from the building boom.
Okay, wow, I should go to bed.
-Carleton
Occasional customer across the ravine decided to use his own variation on Warmboard. He is getting the heat transfer plates from a local radiant contractor.
I ripped much of his straight runs, using a template-routed all the turns.
I have inslab radiant so I guess he figured my experience invaluble. Moreso, I think he justs likes the company along with a bit of expertise. He's taken his large addition on his own after subbing the framing.
I may have taken some pictures of the job-I'll give it a look see.
The ripping and routing are the easy and less time consuming part. Laying down the straights and turns is mostly a layout ordeal. The labor not super fast either. We glued and screwed-he's putting 5/8's engineered over it.
Be careful to plan ahead. I had to change his two stair runs with the added thickness of the furring for radiant (some change in material on different levels. Makes you wonder why people don't think of finishes when in the framing stage.
note: Here's something to consider. The radiant contractor loaned him some of the parts so he could fab his own runs and turns. The layout might be proper with the 6'' strips in between, but when making the turns , the layout is 7'' centers-not a judicious material use. I just showed up and started in on copying the parts-didn't even bother to spend a minute "figuring" anything............assumed it was right and either the aluminum transfer plates required the sizing or the heat layout.
And another note-the pattern on the floor is dizzying...........A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
" if I put heat transfer plates under the PEX, the water temperature shouldn't have to be too high to keep the main floor warm"you'll want to study up on how radiant heat works a little more.The purpose of the plates is to transfer the heat by conduction, so by putting them under the pex not in contact with the upper floor, you are heating your lower subfloor so the heat still has to more via convection and radiation to the upper finish floor before heating you.which removes a lot of the efficiency of the concept of a radiant floor. You are placing hurdles in front of the heat and making it hard for the poor little BTUs to do their job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the good words. Let's be honest though - I had good teachers like Stan Foster and Jed Dixon.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
I guess where I'm coming from, is I'm looking at the average $500,000 house in the Calgary market, and there's at least $150,000 of labour in it. Then the GC has to make some money too, so there's obviously some pretty hefty labour/contracting bills and room for a little guy to manoeuvre. So...I'm wondering what part of the picture I'm missing here.
Don't get in a big hurry to spend all that money you are going to save. Save it first, then spend it. If you do it in that order, you might find out that you don't save anything.
I framed custom homes for many years. Early in my career, I learned that framing homes for experienced builders resulted in much better numbers for me. Conversely, I found that framing for homeowners cost me a lot more. So, I had to make a decision...either raise my prices substantially for the homeowners, or refuse to frame for them.
I chose to refuse to frame for them.
There are several reasons why homeowners SHOULD get a higher price based on sound economic reasoning. So, if a homeowner is going to same money by hiring subs, he has to find those subs who haven't learned the lessons that I learned early in my career.
Did you notice how often CP used the word, "Assume" in this thread with regard to pricing?
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Yes. I'm assuming that this is his first rodeo. I don't blame him for wanting/hoping/believing that he is going to save a chunk of money but the reality will soon kick in.
Builders constantly struggle to find the best value in materials and labor. They have to balance the time value of their effort to and minimize the cost of capital. New builders can't possibly amass the efficencies that the veterans have.
I'd guess that if a new homeowner/builder gets it done at the same price an experience builder would sell it, he would be doing great! I actually think the thing will come in higher.
You know I think in retrospect that you are really correct in this saving money business.. I mean I am certain I saved a ton of money building my place but on the other hand it's taken me 10 years of my life to do so.. That is I worked a normal full time job and came home and put in 50-60 hours per week building my home.
So in addition to the 17 cent a bd. ft. black walnut I have hundreds of hours getting it stacking and stickering it, Milling it and shaping it. That's just the black walnut.. If you calulate the hours I spent on all 50,000 bd.ft. there is easily thousands of hours spent there.. (with many thousand more to come)..
Now If I cooly calculate the cost of my wood factoring in my labor I'll still have saved money over the currant $9or$10 a bd. ft. just not as much..
However Since I don't charge myself anything for my labor and actually enjoy doing the work I look at it like a hobby.. How much would you charge yourself to play a round of golf or go hunting etc. whatever is you hobby?
"I actually think the thing will come in higher."That is normal. They spend assumed savings that never materialize on upgrades, and once or twice in the process have to do something over because of ooopsies.
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I've done this several times all over 2500 sq ft. All as my own GC and Frame, Trim & Roofer, etc. My experience is that you need to do a thorough enough plan that you can do fixed bids on the other subs and supplies. Do thorough research on the subs. Then plan 2-3 fixed list material loads to be delivered in those full loads for a fixed price. Then on your shorts pay the counter price at big box. Buy Studs in full ricks (500 count) and cut the excess.
If you can't develop that detailed a set of plans; don't expect suppliers or subs to discount for you. Also even the best plan will come up short. Be sure you have financing for 20% over those supposedly complete plan bids.
Edited 3/20/2009 9:36 pm ET by jimcco
"justice"
now you are funny tooNo Tag
For general building supplies, the 10% that was offered is fair. There isn't much markup on commodity items. You may be able to do better on items with higher markup such as appliances and windows.
Building a single home you have little leverage, so pretty much asking for a discount and taking what you can get, if anything, is about all you can do.
The best deals are when the seller gets something for dealing, too. For example, you could take last year's model or a floor display for an appliance that a seller would be interested in getting rid of if the new models were in.
The best way to save money are in the choices you make yourself. Say you will be carpeting many rooms. You could go for the high end carpet in the master bedroom or in a public room such as a living room, but put in cheap carpet in the kid's rooms. Or low end vinyl in the spare bathroom. And so forth. The way you manage schedule can affect cost, too. By having the entire interior ready for paint, or carpet, or electrical trim-out, at one time you can save the cost of multiple trips by a contractor.
Carleton
As others have said the days of contractor discounts are long gone. I get a discount, but it is like chasing a vapor to figure out what it is. Things like shingles I pay the same as the guy off the street.
What I would do is develop your materials list. Present it to several yards and ask them to bid on your house. Don't dicker and ask for a discount and insist on the lowest price, you won't impress them or us.
What you are going to want more than a good price is good advice on product selection, prompt delivery without damage and service after the sale.
Good luck
Rich
Compile accurate and complete lists of materials needed. Submit that in writing to all area suppliers. Ask for bids including delivery. There will be a limit as to how long the price is good for.
Carleton, there's not much markup to be given away for the basic stuff, but electric supply & plumbing supply will give you a fair discount if you ask for a cash account.
Tell the truth & see what they'll do.
BUT, you do need to know what you want. They're not baby-sitters, if they're busy with paying customers you're gonna be last in line if you waste their time.
Somewhere there's a recent thread, says that Direct Buy wants $6,000 to join?
For that 6K you can outfit a nice shop with a cabinet saw, jointer and planer & a whole bunch of miscellaneous tools.
Joe H
Forget discount and look at the net - bottom line.
I do business with three yards.
Get ten percent FROM ONE, 6-7% AT ANOTHER, AND NO DISCOUNT AT THE THIRD.
And currently I am doing most of my buying at that third one.
But overall for the last 20 years, the net price has been within about one percent at all three.
you also want to look at service and honesty. Lousy service and late deliveies or messed up orders cost big money in this business.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The myth of builders getting big discounts is just that - a myth. OK, maybe a huge national builder who negotiates stuff for 50 or 100 houses at a time.
I work for a slightly larger than small builder. The discounts I get at the building supplies are modest. I'd say that by the time I get the discounts and free delivery it is a little less than a big box delivered price. Plus, with the BS I get to deal with the better professionals and the BS has a better selection of basic building materials. Big boxes are good hardware stores...
When I get a framing package, if I bid it out to 4 BSs, the price will vary a few hundred dollars either way on a $7k package. What does that tell you? Very little profit in there...
Besides - since you want to DIY nearly everything, you aren't gonna be able to "process" truckloads of material at a time. The stuff will get wet, damaged, etc sitting around on site.
I know building a home is a big investment for most any person/family, but one house to a BS salesmen isn't anything to get excited about. OK - with the bad economy they will have time to return your call...
Something I don't know if anyone has mentioned or not, that the OP should be aware of, a building pro like you or me generally has a darn good idea what they want, and just orders it. not a lot of time for the sales people at the yard invested.but a DIY novice is going to be pestering them with question after question before making the order and then a few complaints afterwards, and the people at the yard know that going in, so they cannot feasibly make a discount as large to a DIY as to a contractor, esp knowing this job is a one off.
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Don't get my fur up over direct buy. The owners of the condo project paid 5 grand for the privilage of using them. They ordered kitchen cabinets,the person doing the order said it was her first time. WELL IT SHOWED. Missed the details for an island. sent 1 end panel, back panel was 2 inches to short. Well after over a month to get 3 panels the person will not return an e-mail, phone call, fax. so the job is floating in the waters of time.
The cabinet company had 3 different cute little white tabs covering the hinge guts, so who made them? do all the installers don't read.and quality control what a joke.Discounts are deceiving unless you go over every invoice and see if they made up the discounts on other things. Go with good service and delivery! Having some knowlegde and being polite will get a discount faster than whining and looking like a cheap ####.
If you're going to try to save money you are going about it wrong..
You have to look beyond the obvious.. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry tries this and in the end they usually don't make much of a real dent in building costs..
If you are really interested I'll be glad to share where I found pretty massive savings and how to find them for yourself..
Good on you for building.
Over here (BC) the local lumber yard (Castle) gives a 10% to a home builder for 1yr. I`ve seen the service they give and it`s good. Mind you this is a small town.
If you can pick one close to where you are building and in the furture you will keep getting the service.
Contractors are still getting the 10% here. As long as bill is paid within a certain time.
And don`t forget about the Gov. money for using "green" products.
Directbuy..... be careful, very very very careful!!!!
Good luck on your build.
I might have a different view or take on this than most...
so place the value of this information right up there with what you are pay'n for it...
First we don't know your skill sets... or experience... meaning most of the guys here who do this day in and day out... know just about exactly what each job requires... thats materials... tools... and time... and the most valuable part...
they know the natural order of things... they know what they need... and when they need it... and where to get it... PLUS they know how long it will take to get it... meaning they know when to order something to have it there when it's needed... but not so soon that it'd get damaged before it's used...
I don't know if you have covered secured storage onsite... big plus if you do...
now where & how to save? if you know exactly what you need... how many faucets... door knobs... towel bars recepticals... switches... then you can hunt on ebay and get great deals... only buy NEW stuff in the box that is complete never installed... you can either save a ton of money or get far better quality than you had planned on use'n... not hard to get a $400 faucet for $80 which is great if you were going to spend $80 on a faucet anyway... or you can find the $80 faucet for maybe $35...
have flex in your plans... you might find some special ordered windows that are a few inches different than what you had planned ... but for 40% of the price...
you will not save any money on framing materials... or drywall... you can save money on nails & screws... and sandpaper for the above... you can save money on caulk... great deals on case prices on ebay...
good plans will save you a ton... plans where there is room to run the mechanicals from a central location.. can save you big...
PAY in advance... you should get a min. of 2% dscount for this vs pay'n with a credit card... because most merchants lose 2% to the credit card co's... I can usually expect 5% discount on really large orders if i pay them BEFORE anything is delivered... it lets them maybe get a better price from their supplier... they get the use of your money... they know they won't have a bad or late debt... it saves them money in book keeping and billing... IF you can't get a discount this way... use a credit card that has rewards you can use... need something big? get a HD 10% off coupon and open a credit card account on the same order... thats another 10%... plus you get reward points...worth another 1% or so...
now my soapbox.... it's not the money that you saved... it's the money you DID NOT SPEND... which means it's money you don't have to finance or earn... if it's money from a construction loan... that will roll into a mortage... you can figure for every dollar not financed thats $3 dollars you didn't have to bring home... for every $3 you don't have to bring home... thats $4.50 that you didn't have to earn (or more) so if you save 50k building a home through wise purchases and labor savings... that $150k you don't have to pay back or a min. of 225k you'll never need to earn...
most of the people on this board are building for others... they mark up materials ... standard is 20%... there is no reason for them to get the "best price" when it just cuts into what they make... this is not a slam on them by any means... it takes a ton of time to order... receive...pay for and bill materials...
remember it's your money...
just my 2cents
p
Awesome post, Pony. Thanks very much for all the good tips.
I've already got $15,000 sitting in the building supplier's pocket as collateral for what they order, so they should feel all warm and fuzzy about my ability to pay. ;)
In designing the house, I made sure locate everything the mechanicals centrally, that should be good...the only thing I regret, was building a deck that wasn't integrated into the house somehow. Now, I have a more-or-less freestanding monster with tons of posts, railing, and perhaps unsightly bracing. Note to self, don't do that again.
Great point on the composition of people on this board to. I've never used this much, so I had no idea who contributed. I've never supplied materials for anything (other than nails), so that's all news to me. Anyway, thanks again for the great post. Very informative.
Roman, it took me a moment to figure our "renchy" too. More amusing, if you try the spell check, it wants to turn our friend Piffin into a Puffin. ;)
Joe, very good idea...I would get right on that...expect I'm in Alberta! There's no local mills, and I'm afraid the closest place Black Walnut or Oak trees grow are, umm...maybe 4000 kilometers away? Or what's that, 2500 miles? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there's none around here. No mill, no lumber, but great idea otherwise.
Our BC friend has lots of cedar though...maybe I'll pay him a visit. ;)
Okay, at long last, I have to get back to work.
-Carleton
I gotta say, I'm liking your writing style and sense of humour more and more.Sorry about losing the f on Frenchy. That is the finger I cut off and put back on, so sometimes I think I hit that f,c,or v key harder than I did.
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Good Luck with your project, Reminds me of when I spent 4 years out west , 2 framing houses in and around Calgary and 2 going to SAIT for Architecture back in the early 80's.Moved back home to Ontario when the last recession started.
It never ceases to amaze me that clients get annoyed if we builders try to make a profit. They all want fixed price contracts and for builders to assume all the risk for overruns but can't understand why we have to add 10-15-20 % to our costs. Go into any store and ask the sales person what the markup is on any product. Better yet, tell them you don't want to pay retail for the tv/fridge/etc, you want to pay cost. Why should the building industry be any different.
I might be wrong on this but from what i understand only the really big developers get deep discounts. Even then they might go around the lumber yard.
If they have a big warehouse they can order stuff by the truckload and store it.
How many builders are doing that?
If you think you are going to save a lot of money building it yourself you are mistaken.
I'd enjoy building your own house and savor each day you can pick up a tool.
The rest is just bean counting.
Edited 3/19/2009 10:06 pm ET by popawheelie
I might be wrong on this but from what i understand only the really big developers get deep discounts. Even then they might go around the lumber yard.
Poppa, have a bud at a BIG builder. They buy on the futures market. Or maybe did, haven't talked to him in almost 2 years.
Joe H
Edited 3/19/2009 11:30 pm by JoeH
"Poppa, have a bud at a BIG builder. They buy on the futures market. Or maybe did, haven't talked to him in almost 2 years.Joe H"I'd rather buy from the past-prices were so much cheaper then! ;-)John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Is your head spinning yet?
Where are you from Cowtown? I know some of the area, used to survey out of Lethbridge.Pour 1.5 inches over your pex tube. If the idiots that did mine are pros's, well my dead mother can trowel cement better. I would and could do my own gypcreting, Just do one room at a time. talk to you local concrete dude and you will be suprised to learn about when is on the market.
I live in Saskatchewan land of four seasons in one day! The thermal mass is a bonus, especially of you get a good dose of passive solar and proper overhangs for summer.We went 3 stories with ICF and do not regret it. Think tornado resistance and sound control and better price from icf and cement suppliers with volume, especially now of days.
also it's insulated and done no vapor barrier. I ordered All weather window fiberglass frames for a 2x4 wall opening and 3/4 gyproc retun. I made my window seats out of birch ply and just slipped them into the return. very classy look and in the long run quite inexpensive in material and time. and the cat's love them. also no condensation problems.
The savings you make now must be considered against long term cost of living and energy prices. I got a Buderus boiler could have saved ton'ns with a water heater and the new systems are a lot better that 1997.
I'd rather buy from the past-prices were so much cheaper then! ;-)
When I used to take my mother grocery shopping she wouldn't buy anything.
She could remember when tuna was ten cents a can, and everything else was too.
We're all living in the past a bit, when I get an order of fries at McD's and it's a buck + I always have that "I remember when those were 19 cents."
Joe H
Edited 3/21/2009 8:04 pm by JoeH
We GC'ed our own place a couple years back. Did a lot ourselves, but hired out a lot too. Here's what I found:
1) If you want quality materials without having to hand-select every single stick of lumber, cheap or free delivery, wide selection of materials, and possibly a small discount, a reputable full-service building supply house is well worth your trouble. We established an account so we didn't have to pay cash-and-carry, and our supplier gave a 3% discount on invoices paid within 30 days.
2) If you do your homework and get on the right mailing lists, you might do well to purchase some stuff at larger chain stores (if there are any within a reasonable distance).
This applies in the US. Canada may be entirely different. That said, when we were building, I'd have taken a 10% discount all damn day from anyone I could get it from. That ain't a bad deal. As others have stated, the markup on a lot of building materials just isn't that big.
You can also save money by trying to cut out the middle man. I bought all our hardwood flooring on eBay, believe it or not, direct from the millwork shop in Pennsylvania.
Call/visit tile and brick suppliers. You might be able to find small/odd lots or discontinued styles you like and can pick up at a reduced price. I stumbled across a brick & tile supplier who was getting out of the tile business. Picked up a lot of high-quality Italian ceramic for dirt cheap.
Beware false economies - some things cannot be done more cheaply by you. One example I found was insulation. There was no earthly way I could insulate my house for less time or money than a contractor. The materials alone would've been equal to what the insulation sub charged me for everything.
The best way to economize is figure out what work you can do and want to do - and most importantly, have time to do. If you're in no big hurry, great learn as you go, DIY as much as you possibly can. But if you have to have the place done before next winter and all you have now is vacant, unbroken ground, you'll have to prioritize and sub-contract out more stuff.
Hope this helps.
Jason
PS. From what I've heard from other DIY GC's online, DirectBuy isn't worth it. You're better off watching for sales at the big-box stores.
"From what I've heard from other DIY GC's online, DirectBuy isn't worth it."
No sorry, I can't believe that. All those nicely dressed couples giving testimonials on my TV can't be wrong.
Try BMC. I think they're in your area. Based in Idaho. If your credit is good, they will give you an account, they will go 'net tenth'. Every dime you charged the previous month MUST be paid by the TENTH of the following month.
Back in the days when I had my own business I got 5% if I paid my account in full w/in 10 days. That was actually pretty good for the small volume I did. But the biggest bonuses I got from the major dealer in the area were 4 yards conveniently located in the different quadrants of the city, up to date info on all the latest building supplies and materials, a lumber desk staffed with knowledgeable sale persons, next morning delivery if I called in before 4:00 pm and last but not least top quality materials. I'd say all those things more than make up for the time shopping at some discounter like Menards, Lowes or HD and make the full service yard look like a bargain whether you get 10% off or not.
I refuse to think of HD as a discount place.for instance, on a set of cabs this winter, I rpiced them out ( same exact cabs) at HD, Lowes, and the two local yards I do most of my work with.one of the local was lowest- delivered,and the HD was higherest by far, with no delivery, and a rep for lousy special orders and service.I get to shop price with them about once every 2-3 years, usually when some HO owns stock in them and thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread. They hhave ALWAYS come in high on price package, so it is ALWAYS a waste of my time so I always charge the HO for doing them the favour of checking again. They always have to see it to believe it.
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Back to this Direct Buy thing. CBC TV's consumer reporting program Market Place is doing an feature on them next Friday March 27th. Probably worth a look before shelling out for a membership.
Hello. This is what I do with my suppliers because, frankly building material is building material... and suppliers use the price wratcheting schemes as early and often as they can - regardless of volume. Relationships matter little here because the outside sales reps are usually one step above used car salesmen.
Find 10 suppliers, or the most you can less than 10. Make a spread sheet with your takeoffs and make them fill it out. Work the suppliers against one another and make them be competetive, regardless of whether you are a big shot. You'll be shocked at the spread in prices.
Bottom line: when an artist needs a paint brush, he buys one. I could care less if it comes from any one of the brush salesmen. Those salesmen need to remember who the customer is and if they don't want your business, give it to someone who does.
"the outside sales reps are usually one step above used car salesmen."After working three different parts of the country, I have found that every site sales rep has been extremely helpful.It could be that you've had bad experiences with them simply because they see all the signs that you are strictly a hard nosed bottom line guy with a bad attitude and recognize that their time is better spent with other customers.
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We had an outside sales guy make a 6 hour round trip last week to pick up an Andersen window for us.We had a bathroom job with an extremely tight schedule, and the window, through no fault of the sales guy, was behind schedule. He helped us out incredibly by doing that.We buy as much as we can from them. It doesn't always work, but I try to support them as much as possible. I guess our mutually beneficial really came back to us in spades with this window episode.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
excellant point Jon.
That's exactly what most good salesmen do.. You will never be able to retire from one sale your income comes from repeat business and how well you take care of customers determines how much repeat business you get.
Those guys will seek out special prices to offer you and special deals too, when there are a limited number available for the best customers. It just takes a good relationship and treating them with respect that cuts both ways.
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Well said Piffin.
I'm sure there were people who met me and thought I was a bad salesman because I wouldn't sell them what they wanted..
On the other hand the vast majority of my sales were from people refered to me by other customers because I had really taken care of them..
Yes as a salesman you quickly learn to read people and decide who to spend time with and who to move on from.. Just like contractors..
I took a look at Jack's website and it told me a lot...But I was wondering what his reaction is to customers who want him to be one of ten builders bidding on building a house for them, or does he recommend that a potential client get nine other bids before deciding to contract with him for a job.
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He's out of town so no word on the cost of the transfer plates. But here's a couple of pictures of what the job looked like in progress.
I think you can pick up on the weather change from one day to the other.
View Image
View Image
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Now git back over there and vacumn all that sawdust out of the peastone. Sheesh, gotta tell you young guys everything....
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Come on, what do you take me for?
You always take the picture, shows the volume of dust, hence volume of work done.
I don't bag it up and then at each photo session, dump it out.
You islanders, what a bunch of ............
well, what is it a bunch of? Never lived on an island.
now I get it.
That was exposed aggregate, not gravel.
Broom clean is what they get.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 3/23/2009 2:52 pm ET by calvin
LOL, we expose our aggregate too, just don't bother hiding some of it in portland.Anyways, the idea ain't bad at all. Some things aren't worth the labour to replicate, but that one sure looks to be
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I think I have a handle on the "time cost" to replicate the warmboard or whatever that premade track cost is.
Figure that there's shipping in the premade stuff also. I know that figuring the pattern isn't rocket science, but you do have to keep in mind the length of run as you worm your way back and forth. That and gluing and screwing the strips down and the returns and resultant fillers eats up the day.
Ripping isn't that huge a time constraint, the routing of the loop return wasn't bad, but it does take time. Plus side, the half moon insert is made at the same time with a 1'' bit.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
calvin.....
we used the QuikTrack on that sunroom job... i really like it
i don't think i can save enough in materials to warrant the labor of making my own site-built QuickTrack
View Image
here's the link to that thread...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63765.1
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/23/2009 4:18 pm ET by MikeSmith
I really couldn't tell you as I have never had any experience w/quicktrac. He used 5/8's osb and intends on floating eng. hardwood on top in most of the rooms. The hose gap was 1'' and the transfer plate slips in that one inch gap. His heating guru uses BC ply usually, not sure other than the potato chip factor and/or ply gaps in sheeting that would negate that grade. The OSB did lay flat, made keeping that one inch block easy-no interlock so you had to keep the gap consistant.
I stacked 4 sheets, clamped them together and ripped away.
What was the centers on the quicktrac? This ended up as directed by the guru and the 6'' rip-a 7'' center. Ruined any non wasteful layout of those routed curves. He ended up cutting the end off each butt joint to keep the pattern. I ripped and routed all the material b/4 I even looked and thought about judicious use of material.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I priced out a wet system with my local concrete supplier. He said he's done a few pours here of regular concrete with pea aggregate at 1.5" thick. Hasn't even bothered to add fiber reinforcement to the mix, and he said there doesn't seem to be a problem with any of them. I think I'll likely end up going that route, because:
1.5" concrete pour with 2x2 or 2x4 sleepers 16" o.c. will cost $1500 tops, not including PEX.
Pricing out a DIY system with transfer plates, ripping my own plywood/OSB, etc, the non-mechanical materials will cost me at least $4000, require more PEX, perhaps required more under-floor insulation, and be less efficient due to no thermal mass...and IMO, looks like more work than screeding concrete between sleepers. Still a bargain over quik trac, but it seems that concrete is the way to go.
I'd eliminate the sleepers too, but I might required a special type of concrete, and to face the facts, I'm just not comfortable enough finishing a big slab and making it flat
A gypcrete guy in Calgary actually ended up being willing to sell to me 80 lb. bags of gypcrete (surprised me). He was supposed to get to me with a price today, but I'm expecting it will be quite a bit more expensive than the concrete. Anything in a bag is 5x what the bulk price is. Just look at redi-mix. Then I'd have to add my own sand, which I'm sure isn't free. From what I read in an old FHB article, concrete has better conductive performance than gypcrete anyway. That's to say nothing of how much of a pain doing my own gypcrete would turn out to be. I like that the concrete truck mixes the raw material together...not really a big fan of doing that stuff myself. Anybody have any negative comments about the concrete between sleepers idea, please let me know.
Assuming concrete weighs 4000 lbs/cu.yd. I think the concrete overlay will be about 18-19 lbs. per s.f. dead load, not accounting for the sleepers, which the joist supplier says is no problem.
Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice with these issues. I guess we've got off topic from the original post, but this has all really been fascinating and helpful for me.
What I've mainly taken from all this, is that it's just up to me to be the most judicious possible in terms of my own material expenses. There's no magic discounts that builders get, unless they're building on a grand scale. On the upside, at least all the little guys are in the same boat.
I've chatted with a few local realtors as well, and they are all very much of the opinion that it would suck to be a builder here right now, and any fancy houses invariably sell for less than what they cost to build. This would explain why I haven't seen any new houses go up in the last 6 months. So, I'd better be damned careful.
Oh, I've also learned that not all Breaktime posters are a pain in the ####. ;) So thank all you decent folk for showing up after the first round of axe-grinders had their say.
-Carleton
I saw your link about the project you did with QuikTrac. It was a very interesting read. Maybe I'll post details of my project on here as it progresses as well.
You mentioned about insulating with cellulose in that thread. I was super interested about insulating with cellulose in my stud cavities, but the cellulose supplier told me not to use their regular cellulose product due to potential settling. They have another product that is somewhat tacky and sticks in place, called WalBar or something like that. Unlinke regular cellulose though, they said it had to be installed by someone with special equipment.
Did you use this special kind of cellulose? Or are you just not concerned about this settling I was told about?
It sucks if I can't use cellulose, as I think it's the #1 insulating product in its price range. I'm not a big fan of batts, especially fiberglass. For as cheap as I might seem from my posts about economy on my house, I was planning on at least using rockwool for a little better quality, and so I didn't get itched to death.
-Carleton
your cellulose supplier must be out to lunchyou blow cellulose in walls at a density above it's theoretical settled density.... sohow can it settle ?google dens-pack celluloseor regal wallor do a search for Mooney wall on this siteMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike is right that your insulguy is trying to upsell you.Also check out Corbond. Not a cheap install, but the best insulation you can get.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Carleton
Do you know what type of flooring you want. If it`s nail down wood flooring I`d go with the Quik Trak and if it was tile or carpet go with sleepers. A mix of both is a thought also.
With the sleepers, how do you plan on getting the concrete up into house? If it`s a pump truck, you are going to be busy, it goes down fast, over here the pump truck adds $350 to the cost of concrete.
Also with sleepers you loose 1 1/2" off your ceiling height if you use the pre cut studs. Watch the rough openings for the doors when framing, another issue is the bottom plate. You`ll need 2 plates or blocking between all the studs, other wise there is no backing for dry wall.
Did one a few years and asked the owner to take lots of photos as he had a new digital camera, "yes yes he said". A change came up and we need to know where the pex was, yes you guessed it he did not take the photos. You ever heard nees knocking?
Corbond from what see is just in the states, they have so much more to choose from in the states than we do. Big reason for that is the population of all of Canada is about the same as California.
So what services do you have at 1/2 hr from Cow Town, like water gas cable ect?
Just have fun
Ed
That osb eat up a lot of router bit?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That looks like exposed aggregate CC to me, you old guy you.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hey Calvin,
Thanks very much for the photos! Really neat way to put the system together. I'll bet the OSB saves money over plywood too. Do you think there's any problem with that? Also, do you know if your friend is going to put a cover sheet of something over the tubing/plates before installing his finished flooring?
Dude, I really liked your post. Great food for thought. Although I'm not quite sure why you moved back up here from a nice climate...unless you also like hockey...in which case, I understand completely.
Cut50, great points. I hadn't even broken down quik trak into it's component parts. Pretty expensive for some plywood, aluminum, and glue, eh? Perfect example of a heavily marked up product that doesn't make sense for a DIY job, due to manufacturing cost and too many middle men.
As for building my house, it's more out of fear than desire. You see, if I don't build it, the wife will take a away me nice radiant doghouse, and then I'll be sleeping outside...and the weather sucks.
I've done a whole bunch more radiant research the last couple days, but it still isn't clear to me how much more efficient a thin-slab on top of a wood subfloor is, versus the heat transfer plate system. It appears as though gypcrete (thermafloor) is near impossible to come by unless you're in the business of installing it. So perhaps a lightweight concrete poured between 2x2 or 2x4 sleepers might be the only reasonable way of having a wet system for a guy like me. I don't want to beef up my floor system for a full 3" slab, and the screed rails at 16" centers should allow me to avoid paying a finisher to do the slab for me. Even I could figure that one out! Any thoughts?
-Carleton
'Zat your Milwuakee screw shooter?
If so, where do you get extra bits - electric tool have 'em?
Need to stock up...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I used to work for Calcasieu Lumber company which was bought by Stock Lumber which is owned by Carolina Holdings which is owned by a British holding company.
Retail lumber is generally marked up 100% from wholesale. Wholesale fluctuates seasonally. Wholesale is lowest around January and goes up weekly until about July. It begins to decline during October.
Builders that start about a house a day got 5 to 10% above wholesale. Fox and Jacobs which became Centex in Texas did a huge volume and threatened to take their business elsewhere unless they could dictate what the smaller builders had to pay for lumber.
That said, volume customers are easier to deal with
in a logistics sense. Ask for 50% off retail and settle for 15 to 20% off.
A small yard will not be able to cut off as much.
What is your location and when did these pricings occur?
I have never had this idea that such vastly difference pricings were going on. I've never built for nor done a house a day. I would expect someone with this volume to deal direct with wholesalers and have seen this set up here in NW Oh. where a builder set up a yard for stocking purposes. They didn't sell to the public.
I'd be surprised if the O.P. got any discount, much less 15/20% being a one time novice.
Retail price to me is some number manufacturers put on a product to make you think you are getting a deal on their actual selling price. Never had local/regional lumberyards post any ficticious price (retail) and then sell much lower. Their price is THE price. In 37 yrs one yard offered 10 off if paid by the 10th, now only one yard offers a percent plus for the same terms.
So how about a little more information.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
If you look around, there are very few local yards anymore. Some appear to be, but are owned by big boys just to look friendly. About half of the yards are owned by Carolina Holdings (Stock for one) and the other half are owned by BMC.I observed the seasonal whole fluctuations where I worked. That yard was 40 acres and did about 100 million in sales a year. Lumber came in by rail and 18 wheeler. Truckers would come in and exclaim "biggest yard I ever saw"A large scale builder could set up yard and buy wholesale, but then they still need windows, trusses, millwork, and etc.Probably cheaper to pay a little over wholesale, instead of managing all that.Location, Austin TXBTW, is D grade YP available in your are. It is no longer produced here. My buddies in other areas of Texas report the same.fictitious prices! how about fictitious lumber grading. It seems that there is no grading authority. A mill just calls a piece of lumber any grade it wants to.
Hey,
Thanks for all the good info on how some of the lumber business works. I had always figured that rough lumber was marked up somewhere about 100%, but of course, there certainly is overhead involved in a lumberyard. Of course, this all probably varies by region, company, purchasing power, etc.
The supplier I'm dealing with is a province-wide company, although they do more agricultural supply than buildings. Nevertheless, they seemed fairly priced, and more professional than a closer franchise-owned dedicated building supplier. The former lumber sales rep was also very knowledgeable and helpful. Not sure about the new one, as I haven't dealt with him much.
In hindsight, I should have bought my truss/floor package direct from the manufacturer. As I have since found out, it is certainly a possibility. There wasn't much benefit in terms of dealing with a middleman there. In fact, my truss plan ended up have a gable truss and a scissor truss mixed up - that I had to notice. I have no idea what building suppliers do as a markup on windows, but it doesn't seem to be possible to buy them direct in any capacity. With a package price of $25K, I imagine the building supplier is making at least a few thousand bucks off of it, and will never have to even see the windows. They'll come straight from the factory to my door. Windows are another area where building supply doesn't seem to help. It seems to take hours to change a quote! Give me the software at home, and I'd prefer to do it myself.
I have no problem dealing with the lumberyard, but I know my project a lot better than they do. So far, they have only delivered one set of materials, and I've picked up the rest. Anything else just came directly from manufacturer, with them coordinating the delivery...which is more difficult. With upward of a $100K package price on rough supplies, no one has even come out to have a look at my project. That's fine, as I'm sure they have other things to do...but as a result, I don't think I can be blamed for trying to cut out the middleman where possible.
After all, money isn't all that easy to make, so why give it away if you don't have to?
-Carleton
A few more thoughts.If you can't save much on prices demand service. Order more wood than you need and send back the crooked stuff.Of course, some of it can be used for short pieces and blocking.Since I worked there, I could go in and pick thru for the good stuff.. It seemed like I could get 8 decent boards out of a unit (bundle of wood).I have seen good framing crews go thru and reject about half of the studs we delivered and I don't blame them.The yard I worked at had their own truss plant. They had their own stock of lumber and it ways way better that what the yard sold. one of the truss designers built his own house and built his trusses on site using plywood gussets.
Carleton,
I'm a little surprised that this got to 133 posts.
Anyway, there isn't a whole lot of extra mark up in lumber when you compare actual selling price to wholesale.
Yes, builders who buy huge amounts of lumber can get significant discounts. But you aren't them.
MY father works for a large development company. around 1994 or 1995 I was doing some work for him in one of his larger projects. My contract included providing material for one of the projects.
Because I was using the same yard he used........I was getting the same discount on my lumber.............................and surprisingly, there was only maybe 3% discount from my normal price.
From experience, customers who work so hard to save money? Usually end up paying more.
Make your materials list, and take it to three or four competing yards and get prices. If you prefer one yard over the other, but they aren't the lowest? Tell them the truth and ask what they can do.
They may say nothing. They may meet you in the middle.
By the way. Prices for one time customers often reflect what a pain in the a$$ the salesman feels the customer is going to be.
They don't NEED your one house. And if it's your first, they have no incentive to walk you through the process, all the while giving you a discount.
As for the mark-up from wholesale to retail?
Lumber is a labor and cost intensive business. Storage, manual labor to build loads, forklifts, transportation costs, fixed facility overhead......................
Business is about NET profit. And there isn't huge NET profit in lumber.
Get three bids, find the yard that you are comfortable with, see what they are willing to do if they aren't the lowest..............and then enjoy building your house.
This is good advice...In our lumber yard, the customers that are a pleasure to deal with get the VERY best service...We will do anything to help them, and the staff loves to do it. The value they get more than makes up for a slightly higher price they (may) pay. The grinders better have a few good habits, like always paying on time, or they normally will be asked to move on to another yard...And the good builders rarely send any twisted material back... they know how to optimize the materials properly, and there is little falldown. The yard foreman knows the customers who routinely over-order then send back the twisted material, sometimes the customer gets those same boards shipped in his next order....