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Uncle Sam's dangerous drug
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© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com
House and Senate negotiators reached agreement this week on education legislation that the president is expected to sign quickly. And the House of Representatives, in an overwhelming vote uniting Democrats and Republicans, passed the bill on Thursday. Representatives Tom DeLay and Peter Hoekstra led a small group of the conservative remnant in opposing the $26.5 billion package, which Bush Republicans are trying hard to portray as a prudent implementation of conservative principle. But it is, in fact, the culminating capitulation of the conservative attempt to reform the federal government's role in education.
What I wrote about the bill in September remains true today: Instead of the promised attempt to rein in government domination of education, we have an education bill that ramps-up federal funding, increases federal control and was cooperatively stripped of all elements of support for genuine school choice and local control.
However distracted conservatives may be by the drama of the war against terror, we should not let this moment pass without noticing the comprehensive defeat that Bush education policy, enshrined in the bill, represents.
Apparently ended is the struggle conservatives have waged for decades to head off the nationalization of K-12 education. Constitutional language, American tradition and fundamental principles of self-government all weigh decidedly against any federal involvement in local education. Since the first election of Ronald Reagan, the Republican Party had stood for a rollback of that involvement, even abolition of the Department of Education. Now, at the federal level, we have abandoned the argument with the public about the costs and dangers of federal involvement in K-12 education. The current bill does not artfully advance an incremental version of the principled position of President Reagan. Indeed, it takes us in precisely the opposite direction.
It also utterly and finally reneges on one of the most important of President Bush's education policy campaign promises. Candidate Bush called for cutting funds to failing schools and returning to the parents that money in a limited voucher scheme. The bill about to pass Congress for President Bush's signature will give failing schools more money! And the voucher proposal was jettisoned shortly after the inauguration.
The increase in federal education funding in this bill is staggering – over 40 percent in one year. This is more than the education budgets of an average-sized state, such as Iowa or Colorado. With the money, President Bush has eagerly taken on himself, on behalf of the national government, responsibility for the educational performance of the nation's children. No rhetoric about flexibility and local independence will prevent the inevitable – ongoing torrents of federal money, bilge about federal resolve to "leave no child behind" and ever increasing levels of federal oversight and control.
And what will happen when an extra $8 billion fails to improve our children's learning? And fail it will, because real improvement in government schools is blocked by administrative inertia, obstructionist unions and statist secularism in the professional educational establishment. Sad history and all the data show that these impediments are increased, not diminished, by federal dollars. But still the cry will go up for more money, and a more aggressive federal commitment. What will President Bush say next year when another $8 billion increase, or $12 billion, is demanded to make real reform happen? After all, the federal government can leave no child behind. What next? Shall we pass the "Lake Woebegone Act" and decree that all the children shall be "above average?"
Most discouraging of all is that the new bipartisan federal education initiative is such a distraction from the deepest source of our educational problems – the demise of the two-parent, marriage-based family. The family is the school of character and must be the primary agent in education. No federal spending can effectively energize the real reform we need – reform in which parents get control of their own lives, reassert effective, wise and moral control over the lives of their children, and extend that control finally to the common life of our public schools.
As with most federal welfare, federal education money is a drug that obscures and intensifies underlying problems. The Republican Party used to preach "Just say 'No!'" Now we are increasing the dose and inviting the country to party on. It's a prescription for GOP and national addiction that immeasurably weakens our children's future. Let us pray it does not ultimately cost us our capacity for responsible self-government.
*What's your point ?
*BB, great point!
*To quote another:Blah blah blah blah blah.Are you evolved?did
*The point might be that the pendulum has stopped its swing to the right and knee-jerk, reflexive anti-federalism is in retreat.
*He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaack.
*i The family is the school of character and must be the primary agent in education. Yes!!!! That IS the point. I couldn't agree more.Now, on to i formaleducation. Parents - be involved, but let schools do what they do best - teach children on a formal level in an environment outside the home where they can participate and socialize with other children. Let teachers teach.Jeff
*My point is, I am jealous, I wish I could enjoy such a fine arangement with my customers, the worse job that I do, the more money that they pay me for the next job, hoping tnat I will do a better job because I am being paid more money. The other point is that duh-buyah is just another pragmatic politician whose word is no better than a wooden nickle.
*Instead of reading an op-ed about the new education law, read some of the news articles analyzing it. It sells out both sides and does nothing for schools except add more tests. More tests, less time to educate, no help to change failed schools and 2 twelve month periods to correct deficiencies, while the kids lose 2 years of school. And then they can transfer to better schools, except that there is no room in the better schools because they're not sitting empty waiting for the new kids.This law is a complete scam, not to mention an expensive one. It doesn't help failing schools to stop failing. It provides no support for poor districts that can't afford to hire certified teachers. It puts the same burden on schools that are exceeding national standards as those that are failing, taking the good schools away from their successful mission to engage in more teaching to the test. It operates on the false assumption that schools are like businesses, and upon the threat of losing funding will suddenly become better schools for no other reason. It assumes that district that do poorly do so because the teachers are not trying hard enough and the administrators are mismanaging and stealing.The huge gap is parents role, and what to do about the kids whose parents are gone, don't give a damn or are so stupid or drugged out that they are the biggest detriment to their children's success in school and hope to be better than their trash parents in the future.So, everybody, or every political persuasion, loses big on this one. That's the point.SHG
*SHG,Thanks for those points.In the 2000 cmpaign I was disappointed all 3 candidates acted like testing is a solution and desirable.I'd have voted for any of them who said "testing might help in evaluating which schools have problems, but we waste too much time teaching to the tests so that kids in good school districts end up loosing a lot of educational opportunities."I've made the effort to get my kids in a decent school district (paid more for my house; pay higher taxes) but see that much of their time is spent learning how to take the Ohio proficiency test.My school district isn't perfect, but it doesn't need to be tested, either.
*Mr Lucas; The school teachers are not the detrimental factor to good education, although they work a lot less hours and days than most people for their salaries. They don't have the freedom to teach, because of the federal educrats, and the lack of proper discipline among students. Any employee of mine would also do deficient work with improper tools and methods. Parents that don't provide oversight, and participate in their childrens education get the results that they deserve.
*The question really should be: "How can we make teaching a more desirable profession?"Aside from Lawyers and Used Car Salesmen and CONTRACTORS... teachers get vilified the most. Who wants to go into a profession that receives such little acknowledgement and so much blame? Why is it that most people who choose teaching as a career are not the high achievers. Find out the WHY to that question and you will automatically discover the HOW to fix it.High achievers...analytical thinkers...problem solvers THAT is who we need in our school systems. They will not be drones teaching from rote but they will be creative people pulling out all the stops until the student LEARNS. Oh yeah and get the stinking govt bureaucracy out of the way too.
*Funny thing with teachers. They have a very different view of themselves than everyone else has of them. Having a few in my family, they complain bitterly about how unappreciated they are, underpaid they are, etc. Try having a conversation about their pay versus the number of hours, days and months they work and they will bite your head off. They are indoctrinated to the belief that they are martyrs, suffering for their calling. And don't even mention the word tenure unless you want to spend the rest of the day hearing about how they need to be protected from the adminstrators (mind you, the same ones who used to be the teachers) who are stupid, lazy and do everything possible to stop teachers from teaching.From the outside, the view is very different. There are good teachers and not as good teachers. Any contractors out there get tenure? Anybody complaining that they have to work all year long, weekends, sometimes (oh my god!) in the evenings? The problem is that it is impossible to ever have a discussion about teachers without some teacher (or spouse of a teacher) throwing a hissy fit.SHG
*Good way to put it. P.S. Bill Gates IS a dropout - didn't finish Harvard...did
*Damn, here we go again.....Darrell is right, in a few years it will not be who can teach, but who is going to teach.....It amazes me there is still the misconception out there that only the lowest achievers teach.....Not true, but it's still there....Yes, there are bad teachers, good teachers and great teachers.....I like to consider myself a good teacher....I do not belong to Mensa, but I do know my mathematics and I can teach.....I have found that, sometimes the brightest people make lousy teachers as they can't see the forest for the trees i.e. they are so smart they assume everyone else should be on the same level as they are..My high school Latin teacher was like that, brilliant, but couldn't teach her way out of a paper bag.....The good and great teachers are aware that it takes a certain pedogagy to reach children of all ages.....Now, testing.....No amount of testing is going to negate the fact that kids today are not learning....I just returned from a seminar on the TIMSS report(Third International Mathematics and Science Study)....Our students are catching up but are still behind other countries....One of the reasons is the difference in cultures, the different teaching methods and the fact that in the U.S., teachers are having to change the WAY in which they teach....Another reason is we don't have a National Curriculum as Japan, Germany, Canada and other countries.....Our Mathematics curriculm is a mile wide and an inch thick.....We attempt to teach too much and kids are not mastering the basics...A greater amount of tests is not going to accomplish anything....Yeah, we complain, but usually for good reasons.....We're also the first ones to acknowledge we need reform.....Whooo, I'm done..It is changing, but change is slow and we still have a long way to go.....If you're interested, do a search on the TIMMS report.....
*Canada does not have a "national curriculum" for math, or any other subject.
*Thanks, Phill.....Did you read anything else I wrote? You would make a mediocre teacher as you always point out the mistakes....Anything positive to say?
*Out of curiosity, does this mean you had access to the TIMMS-R report or the the results of the 1995 tests ? Canada moved up considerably in the OECD test round from the 1995 TIMMS (which we considered a national disgrace).
*No, what this means, is that the first TIMSS report was done in 1996....We were given results on the 1999 results.....Remember, you have to question how the study was done, how the results were obtained, etc.....
*Ah, per the URL, this was the US-only 1999 study ?
*Ah, and I thought the mark of a mediocre teacher was to always respond with a put-down: learned something new. But what other remarks would you like me to comment on ? The 95 TIMSS study (published in parts over '97-'98)? We covered that some time ago. Some good teachers, some bad teachers ? I recall we covered that before. We are your comments on the more recent (reported this fall) OECD results and rankings ?
*Well, I do live in the U.S......Read on Phill.....
*Phill, this report has nothing to do with poor or good teachers....Oh, why do I bother? I really don't give a rat's ass on rankings....What I do care about is whether our students are learning.....As my husband keeps saying to me over and over, why do you care what others think....Read the statistics, Phill and interpret on your own......
*The good and poor teachers was part of what you said in your note, not mine - as I said, we did that. Why did you ask then ? And the rankings are important, because they show that it can, and is being done better; and, it shows how you're progressing over time and among the larger group. The stats and analysis are interesting, particularly when you include the OECD results. One we found particularly interesting was that you can isolate the results and show that the top half of academically-centred private schools produce virtually the same results, world-wide. Why ? It can't just be a coincidence. What is it that they do or know ?
*i "Three, classes are not as diverse as public school populations" While this does describe a very, very, small percentage of private schools, it is not typical. My son attends a pretty average private school, looking at his class (grade 3) picture right here in front of me: there are 26 kids in the class: of the 3 caucasions in the picture, only 1 was born in this country into an English-speaking household. Neither of the teachers is caucasion and both were born in another country. This is the least diverse class my son has joined in the last 4 years.Now, in many of the other 36 countries in the study, there would be little diversity in the private schools and almost none in the public system.As for public school children working at night. How common do you really think that is ? How would that compare to, say, Korea, where they achieve much higher results in the public system than either of our countries ?
*It is typical for high-schoolers to work; not at 10, like in my time, but certainly by 14-16. And while most private schools in Canada are day-schools (slightly less in proportion in the US), in most other countries, private schools are boarding schools, no parents in sight. But yes, the major entry criteria for private school entry and retention is the parental contract. In low-tuition schools, the parents actually perform the janitorial duties, fill in as teacher assistants, coach sports, etc. In virtually all day-schools you are required to review and sign-off on your child's homework every day. But most people believe the key is discipline.
*Did I call it or what? It's always a pissing match with teachers when you discuss this subject.Okay Teachers, here's the question: Acknowledging that many parents fail to hold up their end of the bargain by demonstrating adequate care for their children's education and discipline, what then can the schools do to elevate the standards? Everybody (except politicians)agrees that testing isn't an answer, but are students doomed by their parents and that's it? Are teachers marginal? In school districts that succeed, are all parents wonderful and that's the answer? In schools that fail, are all parents horrible and that's the answer?As a society, we have denigrated intellectualism as some elitist snobbery. Is thinking to be viewed as a bad thing? And why do teachers whine so damn much about having to do their job? The rest of us work hard, often with difficult bosses and for long hours and for far worse pay than teachers get. Why is it that teachers, some of whom earn over $100G with benefits and tenure working shorter days and shorters years than the rest of us, deserve our sympathy? Some may deserve our appreciation, but sympathy? Do teachers really have it that bad? And what about the lousy teachers? Let's admit it, there are always more lousy teachers than good teachers. But they still have tenure, they still get step increases and we still have to suffer our children being taught by some of these third rate, hostile, self-aggrandizing windbags? How do the good teachers justify their complaints when they do nothing to get the bad teachers away from kids? Just asking.SHGSHG
*SHG,I believe teachers feed on each other and have developed a very strong us/them consciousness (very much like police, military and other groups with a strong professional identity.)They tend to feed on each other's thoughts and ideas (in the tracher's lounge?) and can easily lose sight of common sense.6-7 years ago there was a school system in the Pittsburgh PA area (in a fairly decent district) where the teachers started demanding a weeks paid vacation during the school year! They actually requested that as part of their contract demands!I personally am very "schizo" about teachers. I very much admire many whom I know, but also have nothing but distain for them as a group.
*If I challenge your sacred cows, I'm hostile? I've asked questions, not given answers. You get a D-, but I'll give you a make-up "assessment". (They don't call them tests anymore, but assessments)This isn't about one teacher's salary, because if we play that game, the highest paid public school teacher in my school district gets $135,000 plus benefits worth more than $40,000 per year. So let's talk generically instead of anecdotally. And people who disagree don't necessarily live in "fantasy hate land," but using excuses like this to avoid confronting the issues is why it's gotten pretty hard to maintain respect or sympathy for teachers. I live in "my kids go to school and I pay taxes land." I also live in "I work for a living land," a place where I work twelve months a year, including early mornings and late nights and even weekends, and if I don't do my job well, nobody hires me tomorrow.Want to try for a better grade? I'm listening.SHG
*"My salary is for 180 days and divided into 12 payments"I'm curious. How many "personal days" do you get? How many "sick days"?How many teachers do you know who don't take all of their "sick days?"What is the cash value of your health insurance? Your retirement fund?Most people I know work 250 days a year, plus early morning, evenings, and sometimes weekends. That's 139% of what teachers work! (I.e., about 40% more!) Many people I know don't get any paid vacation or sick days or health insurance or retirement.I was sick most of last week. Only worked 1 day. Only got paid for 1 day. Didn't make a penny the rest of the week (but my overhead didn't go away.)Am I hostile to teachers? Per se, no. Am I hostile to teachers who whine and exagerate their situations. Yes.
*I think you make a good point regarding how education is valued. Just look at the attitude in this forum where the majority (well, the majority of the vocal) put down anyone who appears to have an education; they're obviously hostile, perhaps even fearful, to the ideas that a broader education, formal or informal, brings out; and so many are clearly envious of the rewards of education. Now, they may be telling their children once a month that education is important and they have to study hard; but, every day they're ingraining those same children with the belief that anyone with an education is an "education idiot", someone to distain, someone who's 'not cool'. Read the discussion on the 101K house: that man was obviously successful, so, without knowing a thing about him, he's called "stupid", "just lucky", and has had his character totally assassignated.
*Phil,There's a big difference between putting people down because they are educated and putting down conspicious consumption. You are assuming the guy with 101000 sq ft house is educated. Being educated does not necessarily translate into monetary success. Most PhDs do not make mega bucks. The guy with the huge house was being put down for building an enormous and unecessay building and the resources he was wasting just because he apparently wants the world to know he can afford it. Has nothing to do with his education or lack thereof.Mary
*Most PhD's make above average salaries and even those who only took personal-interest subjects, like literature or phylosophy, can make a living out of them Marie. No matter whatb youragenda for putting down this man, others clearly were expressing envy and a distain for the educated. But we'll mark you down as "resentful of success and education"
*Phil,That's pretty funny since I'm among the intellectually bent and well educated. An above average salary will not allow anyone to build a 100,000 sq. ft. house. As I said, that takes mega-bucks. (Let me explain what mega means - mega means millions, not just more than $50,000 a year.) Most PhDs who studied literature or philosophy (yes, Phil, that's how it is spelled) do not earn a living by it. A few make it into a university, more work as teachers at lower grade levels, and a lot work as secretaries or something else entirely unrelated. Even heavy duty disciplines like physics do not mean there's necessarily a job for you. I have an old friend who is a brilliant physical oceanographer, PhD - couldn't get a job in his field for 15 years. So it goes among the well educated.I admit I didn't read the whole thread - got bored with it after awhile, but the gist of the folks who weren't enamored by the guy were more concerned with the effects on natural resources of building way more than anyone needs. I realize that is a concept beyond your comprehension (too big a word for you, Phil?), but not everyone's motives are as black and white as you choose to think.Mary
*Mary, a word to the wise.... There was a lot of "he can't be smart, so he's gotta be lucky" type attitude oozing out toward the end. And a lot of "if it doesn't make sense for me then it doesn't make sense for anyone" type stuff. Also references to large buildings compensating for small.....oh, never mind. The first half was more environmental; the latter half more envy-omental.Jim
*Well gosh Mary, even "Phill" is too big a word for you. Even a personal-interest PhD is still a doctorate and that opens doors. The rigor of the PhD is not what determines salary, it's the value of the skills to an employer.And so, do you actually have an opinion on the point of education being greatly undervalued by a large segment of the population ?
*phillllll... you mistake disdain for envy....and you transfer disdain for yourself ( a specific) to other educated people ( a generality).. once again your logic fails to impress..the disdain is not for educated people.. it's for educated idiots ....hell, some of best friends are Phds....and a third of my relatives....no, disdain is not freely granted to anyone who has an advanced degree.. you really do have to earn it..congratulations !
*Yeah, you called it.....You gave your opinions, I gave mine......I don't think I was pissy because when I am, it's not pretty...I don't think I have ever said that I complain about doing my job and the teachers I know don't complain about that either...SHG, what teachers do you know earn over $100G? If you know where, I'll be glad to go there in a minute...No one is asking for sympathy, just understanding.....Education is a combined effort between the child, parents and teachers.....I know of no study that says that lousy schools always have lousy teachers or parents or vice versa.....There are a lot of variables that go into making a school an excellent one....Sounds to me that you have a very low opinion of all teachers....I can't personally get rid of lousy teachers.....What I and other good teachers can do is provide support, professional development ideas, ways to become better......This is done inhouse and, hopefully with the support of the administrator.....I really resent you lumping all teachers into a "whining bunch of windbags"....Where do get your information that there are more lousy teachers than good ones?Just asking.Carole
*I should have said I wasn't complaining; I love the work I do. If I'd stayed in the corporate world I'd be making about twice what I make as a home inspector. (Or else dead from the stress!)So, 1.5 sick days per month. So we're not at 180, it's really 162, less 3 personal days, so we're at 159. That's about 2/3 of the number of days put in by the average worker! (I.e, the avregare worker puts in 1/2 again as many days on the job.) Without "tenure:" how many teachers in our elementary and secondary schools are really at risk for supression arising from their research and floating of new ideas?Most of the businesses I know of have gone from the "sick day" concept to the "sick occurance" concept. If the number of sick occurances gets too high, they start asking questions. The reason is becuase people start thiunking of sick days as a right, not as a buffer.
*Darrell; I know that there are some very good teachers, I had about three of them in 12 years. Any opinion that criticizes education seems to be taken as a personal attack against the teachers, which is misconstrued in my case, my problem is with the system, the federal system in particular, education should be directed from the local level, supervised by parents and school boards that are not NEA puppets, but people with a real desire to educate children. It is just too simple of a solution for the educrats to understand, how private schools accomplish so much more, with a third of the resources, it is called accountability, if the school that my children attend is failing to educate my children, I can simply fire them and move my children to a school that will do the job.
*Darrell;Good points.
*>SHG, what teachers do you know earn over $100G? If you know where, I'll be glad to go there in a minute... I'm on Long Island, New York, Carole. Average teacher salary (just salary, not with benefits) in my district is $87,000, and this is pretty consistent throughout L.I. Want a job here? We also average 1400 applications for every opening. And yet, every time contract negotiations come around, we get the same arguments how the teachers work soooo hard and are soooo underappreciated. We should all be so underpaid and under appreciated.I have friends and acquaintances who are teachers, all of whom tell me what great teachers they are. I don't know if they are or not, but they still complain about being underpaid and underappreciated.SHG
*Darrell,It's beginning to scare me that they let you near children. Get a grip on yourself. Carole asked a question, and I answered her, which is more than you've shown yourself capable of doing as yet.You assume that my view of teaching is only of NY. Once again, your wrong, and writing a lot of HAHAs is a little too reminiscent of Jack Nicholson for my taste. I have family who are teachers in Virginia, North Carolina and Washington. My view is a little broader. So before the nice men in white jackets take you away, maybe you should tone it down and think a little.By the way, how is it your on this site at 10:56 on a Thursday? Aren't you supposed to be teaching? Maybe your surfing the net in the teachers' lounge, giving us comfort that our tax dollars for school computers are being put to good use?SHG
*>Quick test! What is Christmas Break? You're on Christmas break already? My kids go till tomorrow. I fully realize that you think that my ideas are silly, and that criticism of teachers can only be made by people who live in fantasy hate land. That's the problem, both here and in general, with discussing teachers and teaching. Teachers (and this is not directed at you per se) dismiss their critics because "they don't get it" rather than confront the criticism. This is the same with cops, and other public employees, who, like teachers, believe that no one understands but them.The flip side, however, is that it does nothing to persuade anyone to agree with your viewpoint. SHG
*It's beginning to scare me that they let you near children. Get a grip on yourself. Carole asked a question, and I answered her, which is more than you've shown yourself capable of doing as yet. By the way, how is it your on this site at 10:56 on a Thursday? Aren't you supposed to be teaching? Maybe your surfing the net in the teachers' lounge, giving us comfort that our tax dollars for school computers are being put to good use? These are directed at me and you have no idea what kind of person that I am. Or, whether I can tech. My viewpoint is that – mine. If you read the things I have posted, you will find that the only complaint I have is that you guys lump teachers into one basket. I have also stated that I’m not the brightest guy on my staff. At least I know my weaknesses. As for wanting anyone to think my opinions are all written in stone, I am not that delusional…………. Yet.
*Well, if I could, I would move to LI....Teachers here in Cleveland make on the average $45,000(without benefits)....They can make, after 30 years of teaching, a Masters plus 30 hours, $65,000.....Maybe LI teachers should come to Cleveland and then complain....With the new licensing laws now in effect, new teachers are under a much more stringent microscope....I don't always agree with all of the tenure regulations, but, with these new new rules, "lousy" teachers will not make it into the profession....The fact that some teachers are less than stellar can be laid at the feet of the prepatory universities....That's another topic...BTW, what teacher is his/her right mind is going to tell you he/she is a poor teacher?Sounds like you hang with a bunch of complaining educators who are not working to reform their profession......
*I'm on break tomorrow, also.....I confront criticism everyday, just as you do in your profession...Heard any good lawyer jokes lately?....Those who complain and do nothing deserve everything they get....Those who work for reform within their ranks are the true heroes in our profession......Talk with some of them and then come back and we can have a real dialogue......
*Your talking to the wrong guy when it comes to lawyers. I'm quite critical of lawyers, both here and elsewhere, and I'm no apologist for lawyers. I teach and lecture on ethics and practice for CLE and am not shy about critising both incompetence and ethical lapses. Now that we've dealt with my profession, what about yours? Why is it the parents of the children you teach, or the payers of the taxes that pay your salaries, are unworthy of a discussion?Your really proving the point, that being that there can be no discussion with teachers. You will use every excuse in the book, but still won't entertain any criticism. SHG
*given the status quo..and the fact that teachers are unionized ( and rightfully so, i will add).. what can possibly change to better the educational enviornment..?will teachers bargain away their 180 day school year?t'aint likely..will they give up tenure? not without some bitter strikes.. the only thing they might do is sell out the next generation.. bargain away things for the new hires..so , if you were sitting at the negotiating table.. what would you be bargaining for to improve education..?or do we just make an end run and settle everything in the state and federal legislatures..? if so.. what kind of new education legislation do we want to improve education..? and frankly.. i am only interested in public school education.. the one that 75% of our citizens will only see and be exposed to and educated by, in their lives...
*Teacher negotiations are always the same, it's all for the children, for education. But when the dust settles, its a raise and some new benefits for the teachers. Ever hear of the teacher union bargaining for a longer school day, to teach more classes or to make the curriculum more challenging? Do they bargain for merit increases?I'm really not anti-teacher, but I am anti-bullshit.SHG
*shg.. so .. as near as i can tell, there are only two ways to change the system..one is at the bargaining table.. and oneis with new laws.. my question again.....what would you bargain for?..or would you not bother and add some new law?. if so.. what law ?BTW.. i more or less agree with your read..but there is a vast difference from state to state..my understanding of AZ.. teachers are still at-will employees....and the schools aren't any better.. some would say , worse..... i'm not for a return to the bad old days..pre-albert shanker.. but it is obvious to me the school committees don't do as good a job at the bargaining table as the union reps...
*> my understanding of AZ.. teachers are still at-will employees....and the schools aren't any better.. some would say , worse...Really? At-will in AZ? I didn't know that. And it doesn't help?!So the question is, how many actually get fired? Does the school system use the tool given them?I still think the best thing to do is double the number of schools we have (hence, smaller schools), but since that will never happen (hell, Marion is about to close a middle school to save bucks, student population hasn't gone down), there needs to be a system to evaluate teacher competence, and it has to be possible for the school system to fire bad teachers. And then the school system needs to do that.Rich Beckman
*In the system that I work in they release people. In the last five years my system has fired at least 10 people for being incompetent. That may not sound like a lot but it is. Also in our school an administrator is in your room at least three times a week evaluating job performance. Not formally of course, but he or she is there and wants to see lessons and plans for lessons. We have three formal evaluations and many informal evaluations. The average SAT score from the students that attend our high school is 1060.
*1060 ? I'm not sure what the scores exactly mean or what the expectation are (when I took these exams, the important score was your percentile ranking); but, a lot of students here write the US SAT's so that they can keep the option of going to a US university, there was a big uproar here last year when the local highschool slipped below 1400 for the first time. That sounds like more than little distance from 1100, am I missing something ?
*Well, part of the difference is that lawyers get paid based on results; there are lots of lawyers who don't make very much at all. The lawyers working in corporations (HR, contracts, bids, patents, media relations, procurement, pricing, etc.) make about the same as senior techies; government lawyers don't make a whole lot; and neither do prosecutors. M&A briefs make huge dollars, but they work incredable hours, impossible schedules, under immense stress, and they risk their career every time they carry a deal.And, of course, if you don't think a lawyer is worth their pay, you can just go down the road; if you don't think a teacher is worth their pay, they go on strike and your kids get zero education (talk about a gun to the heads of the politicians).
*I never said parents were unworthy of a discussion....What are you asking? I am a parent as well as a teacher.....Parents are the most important variable in a child's education.....I have stated that time and time again.....If more parents participated in the educational process, Johnny would benefit.....Teachers realize who pays their salaries....Have you ever participated in teacher/district negotiations......I have and your assumptions about it just being about money when the dust settles is also bullshit.....As far as criticism, criticize away.....As far as discussion, as long as I agree with you, then I'm fine.....If I disagree with you, then I'm spouting bullshit.....Seems a little one sided to me.....I'm glad you teach and lecture on ethics.....I also lecture and teach every day ethics to my students along with mathematics.....It's not an easy job, is it?
*Darrell:"I have spent the last ten minutes thinking about what you have posted. Instead of lashing out at you and your profession I have a few questions: What makes lawyers believe there worth more than 20,000 per year?"Must have been a pretty scary 10 minutesIt's not what lawyers think about their worth that's important, its what the clients are willing to pay that's important.That was the easy one. You should have figured that one out."If teachers do it all for education what excuses do lawyers use?"I don't know why teachers do it; but I doubt that itsi allfor education. I also suppect that different teachers have different motivations. I know lawyers have lots of different motivations."Is it noble to defend criminals and corporations just to make large sums of money?" Do you think there is there something wrong with providing criminal defense or working for corporations?Perhaps you should sit in on some of your school's civics classes for some remedial catch up.It can be argued that it i isnoble to provide driminal defense: a basic tenent of our country is that everyone has the right to a fair trial. Because many people vilify laws who practice in the criminal defense area, anyone who practices in that area is purposely choosing an unpopular area to work in to ensure that our country's ideals have a chance to be realized.Re corporate work: I'll just note that I practiced for 12 years as in-house counsel for 2 major US banks. 99.9% of thew work I did was dealing with gov. laws & regulations and with other major banks and corporations. In my view, it wasn't particularly noble or ignoble. It was a job: often interetsing, often challanging; sometimes incredibly boring, but basically just a job. (Who would have expected one of the board's knee-jerk liberals did that kind of work?)
*"In the system that I work in they release people. In the last five years my system has fired at least 10 people for being incompetent"How many years experience did they each have in that system? Did any have tenure? How long does it take to get tenure in your system? How many teachers are in the system altogther?
*To the extent that this board is a microcosm of society, this discussion pretty well mirrors every discussion I have ever seen about education. The teachers circle the wagons and have studiously (pun intended) avoided addressing both criticism of teachers and responsibility for educating students.The non-teachers on the thread have been left wholly unconvinced by any statement made by the teachers, and the discussion, to the extent it can be called that, has degenerated into teachers engaging in a poor attempt to bash others to divert the issue from themselves. Is it not clear that your defense has failed to sway anyone to your side? You have blamed parents, lawyers, politicians and administrators, but attribute no fault to teachers for the failure to teach students. Your view of teaching is self-serving, self-aggrandizing and myopic. You can neither see nor admit a problem with teachers, but readily, indeed immediately, point the finger elsewhere for excuse the one clear fact that every non-teacher sees clearly: Too many students come home from school with a poor education. And yet, no responsibility for this falls on the shoulders of teachers.Going back to the original point of this thread, the new education law will accomplish nothing because testing students does nothing to improve the system whereby they are to be educated, and demonstrating by test results that the system has not served students well will not show how to improve the system. And as long as teachers have nothing to do with the failures of the system, as per the teachers, there will be no cure on the horizon.SHG
*I realize that I am terrible. You guys are correct, but of course I did not have to tell you this. I think the only bashing and criticism going on here is from you guys. Of course I am wrong. I realize that my writing is sub- lawyer standard but your comprehension of what I have said is extremely low. I will not remediate you. I know it would be impossible. Thanks For all of your insight into the minds of educators.
*SHG,I think you should distinguish between Darrell and Pi in those remrks.Darrell was pretty quick to take offense and become defensive; Pi got into the game well after things had heated up. Plus, IMHO, she deserves the benefit of the doubt because of her long history of thoughful, constructive posts.I think you have been a bit defensive at times in this thread as well.
*Thanks your correct.
*Point well taken Bob. Pi wasn't there in the beginning, and she is deserving of the benefit of the doubt for her many contributions to Breaktime.Darrell, Bob wasn't complimenting you. You've contributed nothing to the defense or understanding of teachers and your last post was pathetic. Perhaps you are a good teacher. I certainly hope you are, for I would not wish a bad teacher on any child. Thanks for not remediating me. It would have been ugly.SHG
*SHGLAW,No Kidding! I have tried. I have lost. You win! You guys are just too smart for me.
*i Parents are the most important variable in a child's educationGee, Carole, I've always considered myself a constant! :-) . (Please, no irrational responses).Merry Christmas!Jeff
*LOL, Jeff......I said when I get pissy, it's not pretty.....Merry ChristmasCarole
*SHG, I believe I have stated time and time again that all more testing does is create a cadre of teachers teaching to a test that becomes more evaluative than diagnostic.....As far as teachers taking the blame, we do, every day when classes are over and we are looking over student work and wondering what is wrong....One of the reasons I am involved in math standards workshops in our district is that we realize that teaching styles have to change and we are the only ones who can do it......That was the reason for my posting the TMMSS Report.....If it's any comfort, other countries are doing as well or poorer that we are.....Did you know that Singapore 8th grade students are consistently #1 in mathematics and science, yet it is one of the most repressive countries we know.....Maybe we should return to caning...I was also discussing our conversations with a mathematics college professor today and he stated that our teacher unions are approaching the negotiation tables in such a way that it does give the public the perception that all we are are moneygrubbing individuals.....Have a Merry Christmas......Carole
*Thanks, BobMerry Christmas and Happy Holidays......
*Singapore repressive ? You've never been there !
*No, but I do read......
*phill..>how would you describe it? open, liberal, tolerant society ?....what ?
*...Shg...I beilieve in freedom of expression......I also believe that teachers are concerned......Laywers, one the other hand, are kind'a jerks......Care to elaborate???......Newf...
*Daryl,This isn't about lawyers. But you would be surprised to find that there are quite a few of us here. And most lawyers are jerks. And most teachers are concerned. But none of that answers the question, since lawyers don't teach children and teachers being concerned apparently isn't enough to educate a child.SHG
*...Ditch the extra r, please, is this a play on the other Canadian with the extra LLLL???......Newf......ps... Can't a lawyer find something better to do than pick on someone trying to help our kids, than shit on them. Where does the $500.00 an hour come from,...
*...Sorry, you were ahead of me...
*...I really don't like people picking on teachers:We are ALL teachers in some way, We just don't like the present system......Newf...
*SHG: I agree with some of the earlier comments.....you ask for 'discussion'...when someone disagrees with your premise, then they're whining or avoiding the question. I don't see a lot of 'discussion'. What do you think is appropriate for a teacher...hours of work, qualifications, compensation, etc? I'm not circling any wagons here....I'm teaching right now, but maybe not past June....I have no vested interest, have no higher degrees in education ( beyond the program I have to take as a new instructor in my college). If I'm not needed, I go back to industry, and that's fine. Heck, I don't teach in the k-12 system, or even in your country. But I think you're you're being pretty harsh on the individuals involved, who have to work in a syatem. And under a contract.In my small part of the teaching world, the majority of the people I work with are exceptional. There is no other word for it, they're just excellent people, and in my particular little college, the new people being recruited have a huge amount of respect from me. They are well trained, hard working, committed people, and we work everyday with what the public schools give us, so we're well aware of the shortcomings there. And there are also people, like in any organisation, that don't measure up....I've had to deal with many fools in the private sector, that I could never figure out why they still had a job. In my wee campus,BTW, I've seen a line up at the photocopier at 6:30 a.m, and walked out with other instructors at 9:30 p.m to meet others coming back in. We get paid for six hours a day. I work as much on the weekends as I did as a business owner. I know one guy that took a 65K pay cut to come and teach.So, what's my solution? My opinion is, most of it comes down to what happens to the child in the years before they get into the system, or anywhere near a teacher.My father, with 1.5 phds, owned 10,000+ books. I was reading at university level, according to the tests, before I hit high school (not that I set any records there, mind, discovering beer and all). My little girl, turning twenty months old, has been surrounded by books since she was tiny, and they are one of the great sources of pleasure in her life already. I have no doubt whatsoever she'll be well prepared to tackle school when she gets there, and take advantage of it. Other kids aren't so lucky, but they're the ones that are going to occupy most of their teachers time.You want to get me going, start talking about the curriculum in teacher education, which gets pretty silly sometimes, from what I've seen. I still have a lot of respect for the individuals involved on the front lines, and I still see a lot of fuzzy thinking here when it comes to compensation and related issues.
*Nice, quiet, industrious, affluent, clean, good food, multi-ethnic, lots of art. It is, of course, also very densely populated, so they do not tolerate and have strict laws against vadalism, rowdyism, drunkiness, and the use of illegal drugs; which, according to some American press reports a few years back, should not apply to Americans.
*Adrian,You're right, I was being pretty harsh about it. But that was in the hope of getting a discussion on the subject. The issue started following the position that the failure of the educational system was the lack of parental involvement and support, for a variety of reasons. I do not disagree that this is a vital factor. But, my question was, if a kid comes from such a family, does that mean that he has no chance in school and that teachers have no responsibility to educate the child. Then the excuses started rolling in from the teachers: They don't get paid enough, they work too hard, administrators are stupid, greedy, incompetent, etc. Bottom line is that none of the teachers was willing to accept that they had any responsibility for teaching the child. All problems with education were someone else's fault and they were the real victims. And the point was pressed home when one person argued that anyone who thinks that teachers are part of the problem lives in "fantasy hate land," meaning that we must either support teachers unequivocably or we're just teacher haters.Then came the argument that if you're not a teacher, then you have no right to question teachers, you couldn't possibly understand. Again, was a cop out, not a discussion. I may have been missing something, but I don't see how these responses address anything.Newf (with one "r") says he likes teachers and doesn't like lawyers. Yeah, so? If you read way back in this thread, you can see how it developed. I have known good teachers and not so good teachers. But I have a problem with any occupation (this is a glaring generality) that takes no responsiblity for the performance of its job.My view: Parents absolutely have a role. Some teachers are inspirational to students. Most are not. Teachers are pretty well paid for the amount of time they work. Putting the lives of children into the hands of teachers is a very heavy responsibility, and too many teachers are not up to the task. Too many parents aren't either, but that's a separate discussion. Whether it's parents, administrators or lawyers, the fact that someone else may be doing a poor job fulfilling their role is not a justification for teachers not fulfilling theirs.I love children, and believe very strongly that we, individually and as a society, cannot afford to neglect them. I care more about children than I do about teachers. SHG
*And now, I take the other side for a moment:It is almost impossible for a teacher to be effective in teaching a class of 20-30 heterogenous children. Each child needs to be engaged, taught to a learning style that differs from child to child. It's not a matter of putting in the time to know your subject matter, since staying a page ahead of the class would suffice, but being able to know and understand what makes each kid tick, how to take the child, particularly the child with other issues in his or her life, and connect with the child to gain his or her trust and confidence and instill a desire to learn. Students with strong parental involvement, strong intellectual abilities and strong self-esteem, will not need as much teacher motivation. But the children most at risk are the ones who need this the most, need an adult who instills in them the love of learning and confidence that they can succeed.The time and energy it would take to accomplish this is enormous, impossible to do given the length of a class and the number of children involved.So then we overlay Testing, the new magic bullet. And this further reduces the teachers' time to actually know his students and engage them. And it limits the teachers' ability to direct his instruction to the interests and needs of his class, instead requiring him to focus on the test since poor results will invariably bring the administration, parents and community crashing down on his head for being a bad teacher.Not every teacher has the ability and desire to accomplish this task in the first place, and there are some, perhaps even many, who find themselves in a position to which they are not well suited. But for those teachers who have the gift and desire, we have placed them in a situation that almost precludes them from reaching students and giving them the gift of learning.SHG
*SHG, I would agree with you.....Not every teacher has the ability or desire to accomplish this task......As stated before, a teacher cannot do it alone....As far as students with a strong parental involvement, this is true, but I have students with no parental involvement who want to learn and are motivated to do so.....I am always amazed at these students...Perhaps motivation comes from within......I also believe that the new testing program proposed is just another band-aid for poor performing schools.....If a child is not motivated to learn, does not come to school, has parents who never completed their education is compared with those sudents with high parental involvement, high motivation and high intelligence, it is not fair...."It's not a matter of putting in the time to know your subject matter,etc" is one of the conundrums of public education.....How many times have you heard some on this board say we should just teach and forget the social issues?.....In my school, we have children who are not taught at home and many come into our system in kdg. already two years behind.....Many primary teachers have to play catch up, deal with kids with numerous social and emotional problems and then test them.....Hello?......If there are saints in the teaching profession, it is these teachers who teach, clothe, nurture and counsel.....The good teachers stick with the profession, the bad ones eventually drop out(not fast enough, however).....I just heard that the Philadelphia School System is now under state control due to crumbling buildings, lack of teachers and poor test scores.....How did this happen?...There are many answers to this question.....Just curious, Carole........
*Well, you succeeded!!
*One thing that's been overlooked by several people here: criticisms of or cheers for one group of people or another are meaningless:Teachers are [fill in the blank.] Lawyers are [fill in the blank.](Of course, when I make remarks about "republicans are [fill in the blank] they are meaningful and insightfull )
*I would suggest you read Geoffrey Robertson's book "The Justice Game" before you start praising Singapore too highly.All of the benefits you mention come at the cost of civil rights for its citizens.
*LOL, Bob.....Just trying to give another perspective....Now, I wouldn't presume to malign lawyers or Republicans!!Interesting site on how one public school system is working to improve....
*3.14159Crumbling schools, lack of certified staff, etc., present one type of problem. What of the schools that have all the money they need and still can't manage?SHG
*Well, I can only speak for myself here, but I take full responsibility for how well I teach my students (and sometimes I have to slap my own wrist)....with one proviso. I teach adults; some of them are very young adults, some are a lot older than I am. I am willing to work as hard towards their success as they are....to the nth degree....but I'm not helping anyone if I work harder than they do, and there's a lesson in that. I don't have enough experience to say if that applies to children or not, but I do think there are people that are lazy and unmotivated and basically unteachable to some extent.Anyway, the buck stops with me, in my situation. As a matter of fact, I don't have a lot of the equipment I require to teach, and my curriculum that I inherited needs a lot of work. I'm working my ass off to change both situations. Maybe it's geographic, but I see a lot of really committed people working really hard, all along the line. Not everyone, by a long shot, but I still, honestly, can't see the basis for this general feeling of ill will towards teachers that I keep seeing here.
*I have friends there, I have family there, I've been there.
*>but I still, honestly, can't see the basis for this general feeling of ill will towards teachers that I keep seeing here. Adrian, I think the reason for the "ill-will," thought I don't think that's what it is at all, is that we're talking about children. Given the choice of taking the side of teachers or children, the children come first. SHG
*As Geoffrey Robertson is an internationally respected QC who has defended several civil rights cases against the government of Singapore I am inclined to place more weight on his assessment of the situation there than yours.As I said, read the accounts of various trials there before you make sweeping statements, although you may find the facts inconvenient.
*SHG, what was the number at the beginning of your post?I don't know all of the particulars, just heard it as I was driving today.....The Philadelphia system is the largest in the U.S. to be put under state control.....In Cleveland, we were under state control due to mismanagement of monies(surprised), crumbling buildings(the last one built in Cleveland was in 1978, my school) and poor test scores......We were under this control for 4 years and couldn't spend a penny without the state saying it was ok.....None of us saw any improvement while this control was exercised.....We then were put under the control of our mayor by the state.....Our CEO(like that term) was hired from NY City schools.....The board of education was appointed by the mayor and not elected.....Some improvement, but not enough to shout about.....If the state exercises control, all schools in a district are under their control, not just the bad ones.....Sort of lumps all schools into one category......
*Fine, you base your whole opinion on the self-aggrandisement of Geoffery Robertson and his recollections of defending Marxist terrorists and pornographers 20 years ago. I still say that Pi's "sweeping statement" that Singapore is one of the most repressive countries and that is why they score well in international test is incorrect.
*Geoffrey Robertson's international reputation and his pro-bono work for Amnesty International need no self-aggrandisement, they are matters of fact. If it is a choice of basing my opinion on that or on your reflections as an occasional tourist, I'll choose him.Pi's statement, as I understood it, was that things are possible in a repressive society which are not where there is an absence of coercion, eg. Mussolini's success in suppressing the Mafia under a Fascist regime.
*I never said that is why they score well....What I said was that Singapore 8th grade students consistently did well on the TMMSS tests.....I then pointed out that Singapore is one of the most repressive countries in the world....I did not make a correlation that that is why they score well, you did.....
*I'm sorry that I misunderstood your comment Maybe we should return to caning... as indicating that coercion is the secret of their success.
*No apology needed....I didn't make myself clear on that point....I meant that as a little(very little)joke.....It was extremely interesting to me, however, how a school system that is very rigid, caning students and demanding that there is complete respect for learning, should score high consistently.....One of the participants had also spent a year in Japan and reported on the complete respect for learning and teachers.....I honestly feel that this is one variable that explains why our students are not at the top in mathematics and science as well as other disciplines....We watched three tapes of the same math lesson done in the U.S., Japan and Germany....Our teachers HAVE to change their teaching styles to reach all students.....Parents also have to demand that education is of the highest priority....Japanese students in the 8th grade take a very high stakes test in order to get into the most prestigious schools and universities....Our students don't even begin thinking about this until they are juniors or seniors.....I'm off my soapbox now.....Happy Holidays and peace to all......
*i We watched three tapes of the same math lesson done in the U.S., Japan and Germany....So, did you notice a lot of differences? And happy holidays and peace to you, too :-)
*Oh yeah, Kai......The lesson was for 8th graders on the areas of triangles and how to change a pentagon into triangles using parallel lines.....The American teacher was boring as hell, told the kids most of the answers, used a lot of worksheets, etc.....The Japanese and German teachers used technology(computer generated polygons), taught the "inquiry" way i.e. made the kids come up with the solutions and interacted much more with their students.....Now, I'm not saying this is the only way to teach, but the Japanese and German students really became involved in their learning.....Hope you make it to Vancouver!!
*It (a rigid discipline) seems to be common in most of the Asian countries. When I was in Vietnam, our guide was explaining the school curriculum there and it seemed to leave very little room for personal initiative. It may be the Confucian tradition of course, where advancement was always by examination but I don't think I'd like to be part of that sort of society. When I was in Saudi, the day started for the workers of our Korean sub-contractor with an harangue by the manager as they were drawn up in lines before him like soldiers on parade and 15 minutes of physical exercises. It was very reminiscent of an ant society.
*It must have been interesting to observe all of those different cultures.....Our Asian students in my school are much more disciplined than our other students....The Japanese students I observed in the tapes, stand, bow every time the teacher enters the room.....I would not want that regimentation either.....However, once the lesson began they interacted with each other and the teacher....I wish I could have seen a tape of the other Asian countries, especially Singapore.....I agree about many of their cultures being reminiscent of ants following in line......Would you agree this acccounts for their discipline in other ways?
*Sadly, I only had one great math teacher, in 7th grade. We did calculus and stuff, made me set out to be a math major. This math discrepancy has been happening for a while, witness, e.g., all the foreign-born new hires at our high tech company.
*Yes, definitely -- but at the expense, it seemed to me, of initiative.
*Yeah, was speaking to the presenter from NASA and he said they had so many engineering positions to fill, could not get enough applicants from the U.S., as all employees at NASA have to be U.S. citizens!We have to catch up......
*I would like to talk to you more, Ian, on this subject.....Why then, do they SEEM to excel?
*we had a japanese exchange student with us for a month about 10 summers ago.. Yuko's family was middle class, her dad was a mercede's mechanic..her day started at 4am... then a two hour train ride to school...for exercise at 7am... academics until 5...exercise and after school related activities until 8.. a two hour train ride home.. dinner....study until midnight.. then start over...she kept in touch.. took the entrance exams for university three years in a row until she got in..we lost touch after her 2d year of university.. but she didn't sound very confident of success...the other students in her gruop that summer related similar stories to their host families..... not a price most would pay for academics here...
*i her day started at 4am.....study until midnight.. then start over... Only 4 hrs of sleep/night? Sheesh! Must be all that tofu they eat, eh?
*kai.. i asked her about that..like .. did she sleep on the train?.. but she said she studied on the train....and i believed her..all of this is a little uncomprehensible for this old C student.....
*Thanks, Mike......I guess that's why those Japanese students in 8th grade were so involved......Their families know if they don't succeed, they will not get into the universities.....Big price to pay......
*Ah, the resilience of youth. But I needed a minimum 6 hrs sleep/night, and made up for it on the weekends!
*I was speaking to a music teacher friend in Australia about her Asian students, particularly of a violinist of chinese parentage who was performing at the Melbourne Arts Centre that evening and the teacher's comment was that the chinese girl was technically the best student she had ever had but that there was nothing of herself in the playing.They do excel at the sciences but are they so good at anything that requires individuality? -- I noticed particularly with the koreans on site that they lacked the Western ability to improvise when faced with a problem.
*Yup, that would explain the economic miracle of the 7 Tigers. And, of course, Yo-Yo Ma is merely technically good, right ? And there's no innovation at Sony, JVC, Hitachi, Mitsubichi, Toyota, or Nisan either, right ?
*Tsk tsk tsk Phill...As if none of those happened/are happening with western engineers/artists/other innovative influences...
*Sure, just like GM, Ford, IBM, HP, Compaq, Sun, Dell, et al aren't filled with Asian engineers and managers and don't have Asian labs.
*They sure do.But you aren't making your point.
*
See first post.