I’m looking for a reality check on a new home project. It’s more expensive than I anticipated and don’t know why. I understand materials have gotten very expensive over the last year, but the house is only 2500 sq. ft. I trust my builder implicitly, but wonder whether he’s not receiving competitive quotes from his subs. Here are some of the specs – does anything look way out of line? I know it’s tough to know with plans and specs, but generally, I would characterize it as high-quality but nothing extravagent.
3 bed/3 bath; 2 stories plus walk-out basement; 2500 sq. ft. of finished/heated space; 10/12 roof – three simple gables, about 30 square total with 3′ overhangs & exposed rafter tails, asphalt shingles; about 40 windows/doors; simple trim; $40,000 allowance for all cabs/counters.
There is a lot of tricky site and concrete work involved – to the tune of $113,000. If I back all of that out, I would think I could come in well under $150/ft. Right now, I’m at $200 per finished/heated ft. – again, not including the site and concrete work.
A few of the big-ticket items include: $48,000 for rough labor; $40,000 rough material; $12,000 for the roofing; $28,000 for HVAC; $15,000 for rough electric; $40,000 for windows/doors; $18,000 for interior trim/doors; $15,000 for flooring.
Replies
There is no way for anyone to tell you if the prices 're good or not.
One door can cost $20.00 or $200.00. The question is how much you can sell the house when is done.
And your builder don't gain your trust by accident.
Good luck with your new house.
YCF Dino
It's really hard to say... are those the costs your builder is charging you, or the costs he is being quoted by subs? Where in the country are you, and how much building is going on? Are you living on site in a trailer and watching the job go, or living 1000 miles away and visiting once a month? Are the plans complete or will the builder have to do design completion throughout the job? Does the job start tomorrow or in 6 months? All of these things matter.
Just off the top of my head, building what you want here would be $175-225/SF.
>but generally, I would characterize it as high-quality but nothing extravagent.
>3 bed/3 bath; 2 stories plus walk-out basement; 2500 sq. ft. of finished/heated space; 10/12 roof - three simple gables, about 30 square total with 3' overhangs & exposed rafter tails, asphalt shingles; about 40 windows/doors; simple trim; $40,000 allowance for all cabs/counters.
3 beds AND Bath$
3 $imple gable$
3' foot overhang$
exposed rafter tail$
40 window$ door$
$40.000 allowance for cab$
So your at at 245.00 per.
What was your question?
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
You comment that the builder may not be getting competitive bids. That in one since is good. He probably has worked with his crew of subs on many, many homes that he has built. That means consistent quality from home to home. Builders like to sleep at night too. Although the cost of the non competitive subs may be higher, your home will probably be built better than going outside his control. Over all, you will be better off building in this fashion. It only takes one poor sub to create havoc on your life once you are living in the house. It sounds like you are in snow country, which means to me that a quality built home is important to keep the elements outside and not coming in. Homebuilding always cost more than one would think even with all due diligence. GW
ok, ok Im not as good or big as some of the big boys that play here
but Im trying, and one of the first things you said is a red flag for me
competative bids from subs
maybe I wont get major league, but I dont shop aroiund on subs anymore. In the early years I did.
now almost as important is loyality, good work that I dont have to think twice about, schedules
it is so important for me now thta if I say I need this project plumbed by x date, that it is done RIGHT and ON TIME
staying with the example of plumber, i run into a problem on a job, not even one he is expecting, and I say hey , I need a vent pipe moved now ( on a remodel) someone from his company will show up
same with my electricain , and my drywaller
here is an examp;e of using a new sub. we were building a two stry apartment for a person, they wanted to use their subs, even though I was listed as the general, they were calling the shots and picking the subs
sure enough the first sub in was the plumber of their choice, the best bid.
failed inspection one time
wow then failed inspectin a second time, and people, including me are getting nervous with schedules
guess what, failed third time , and this time the city put a stop work order on it, and . get this, used it as a class and got newbies in to point out problems
in the mantime, everyone was at a dead halt waiting, not only did the sub screw up, but didnt have time to come back and fix it
it totaslly destoyed any schedules, and the "owner" paid for it in the long run
I could go on but I wont
so now I have older, established subs, with loyalty and brains
dont ask me to shop for lowest bid
Im smart enough to know if they are in line with pricing, anothe rclue is the other big boys would not be using them either
now for your example, not knowing where you are
10/12 roof $$
I wold guess, without seeing the plan , the numbers for labor and materils are reversed, what is the hvac, seems a touch high, electrical is a deal,as well as 15k for floors , maybe
40k in cabinets and counters, must be granite
but regardless
is this your home
or are you gong to turn it right away, if so go ahead and build junk, dont call me
if not, find a builder that you can get along with, and let him use HIS subs
next thing you know youll question his truss supplier, his painter, his deck man, his finish carpenter
and then complain when you got a $50 dollar job for $25 and you wnated $100 but only paying 25
well thats my late night sunday 2cents worth
can I go home now
sorry
I find that all the GCs around here who have, and want to keep, a good reputation have their own stable of subs that they use, over and over.
The subs know they'll get steady work; the GCs know they can rely on the quality, scheduling, and work ethic of the subs.
A big red flag is a GC who suddenly starts using different subs; either he's in financial trouble, or there's something afoot.
Some times I feel that contractors, including some who post in this forum, have no sense of reality or give a rats about the thought processes of the customer. So many times I read a post to the effect, "you should be happy to pay me whatever I ask, if you complain you are an SOB, end of story".
The point about quality is so very very well taken, but that can not be the end of the story. Every contractor is going to drag that one out. But the reality is that not all those trolling that line around fall into that category of contractor. Second bit of reality is that there WILL BE DIFFERENT BID PRICES by different contractors for the SAME QUALITY OF WORK! FACT! It is not unreasonable for a consumer to ask how I can get X quality for the best price. The question does not make the customer an AS.
Mediarich,
Much of your answer depends on where you are. From where I live I can drive 45 min in either direction and get two wildly different prices on the same project even if you exclude the land costs. How about $14 an hour for a carpenter in one direction? $30 an hour in the other?
I suggest you find a house in your area that is of the quality you expect of your builder and see how it turns out SQ FT wise. Compare the two.
Don't forget all that complicated site work. I have to assume it's on a difficult lot for one reason or another. Site conditions don't just add to the site and concrete work. Maybe your builders framer and sider and even roofer have added on because of an expected slower pace due to site conditions.
Also, what kind of doors and windows? What is simple trim? Once again, in one direction from me simple trim is clamshell. In the other 3 1/2 poplar is considered simple.
As others have said, a lot depends on your location, your definition of quality, etc.
The 3br, 2.5 bath ranch with bonus room over the garage I am building now is about the same size as yours at 2500 sq ft. It has 10/12 and 12/12 roofs pretty well cut up as is the foundation with 9' walls. Lot is about .75 acres and pretty flat. Here some of my costs here in Iowa.
Foundation, excavation and all flatwork (incl driveway and 400 ln ft of sidewalk) 43k
Materials (lumber, shingles, siding etc) 53k
~35 Marvin windows and Pella exterior doors 17k
Framing 20k
Roofing 5k
Siding 4k
1500 sq ft of brick 16k
Plumbing incl fixtures 11k
Electrical incl fixtures 11k
HVAC 7.5k
All cabinets and counters incl granite for kitchen 16k
Floor coverings incl hardwood, tile, and carpet 13k
Trim work 7k
Drywall 8k
Of course there are lots of other costs such as permits, landscaping, etc. House and lot should appraise out at about 325-330 when complete. Hope this helps.
Dennis
Your biggest problem (God I feel like Dear Abby) is "I trust my builder implicitly". I wouldn't trust anyone or anything on this planet implicitly. This is not a slight against your contractor, it just isn't wise. Get another quote from another contractor and tell number one you are doing so because you are not sure of his numbers, right, you do have doubts or else you would not have posted your message.
signed, Abby
Would be sticker shock to me. You must live in Conneticut or SF area?
"$28,000 for HVAC; $15,000 for rough electric; $40,000 for windows/doors"
as said before "a touch high" ?
Brother and I travelled 2300 miles earlier this year to install a HVAC system for my mother after she got a pro quote for $6000 for a all new HVAC system for a 9 room 2000 sq ft house, DIY cost with flex duct and 48 K BTU Goodman Heat pump was under $1600 - The DIY included a new 200A GE elec service and branch circuits for the HP (not included in the pro quote). Mom's $6K quote seems a great deal compared to what you are getting.
$40 K for windows and doors must mean you are putting in a few $1000 plus stained glass doors, etc??
Brother and I travelled 2300 miles earlier this year to install a HVAC system for my mother after she got a pro quote for $6000 for a all new HVAC system for a 9 room 2000 sq ft house, DIY cost with flex duct and 48 K BTU Goodman Heat pump was under $1600 - The DIY included a new 200A GE elec service and branch circuits for the HP (not included in the pro quote). Mom's $6K quote seems a great deal compared to what you are getting.
Depends on what his HVAC system is too. You may have installed a forced-air air-source heat pump for your Mother for $1600, but he might be installing a ground-source heat pump with radiant floors AND forced air.
(but yes, I see your point... if the two systems were comparable and one was $1600 and one $6k, that wouldn't look good)
jt8
Edited 12/2/2004 5:51 pm ET by JohnT8
How much for the painter and when do you want me there?
I pretty much agree with the responses here. I'm a small G/C and have my own stable of good subs. I'd be an idiot to shop on them unless I started having problems.
Has your project started yet? Is this a firm bid? He might have his profit worked into some of the line items. (We do have to make a living). Some builders will list their profit as a line item....sometimes that's a deal killer because some HO's don't understand business.
And I always mark up the subcosts for myself because 1. They are a liability to me for insurance purposes and 2. They are a cost to me administratively and time-wise when I need to work with them on site issues or with HO changes of mind, etc.
Like one other poster, the HVAC seemed a little high, but when I put together a bid, I include my own anticipated costs if I have to frame and drywall around ducting or a big plenum, or frame in a cold-air return chase like on the home I'm building now.
The roof sounds pretty reasonable. My crew is roofing our current project (10/12 and 12/12 pitches w/ 7 dormers). The risk is greater, I pay them a little more for the steeper pitches and the work goes a little slower weaving valleys, tying in ridges, moving toe-boards, etc.
The cabinetry also seems a little high, but it's unfair that I even suggest a problem there because I don't have a clue what you asked for.
There's more I could mention, but it's Sunday night, and I've got to write up some change orders for tomorrow and map out a central vac system.
Edited 11/28/2004 10:27 pm ET by Notchman
As has been noted numerous times, it is not in your best interest for the builder to shop the work to subs he does not routinely work with. If the builder does this, it will only create scheduling and cost issues in the long run. Lastly, you need to trust your builder and at the same time, need to understand how he/she prices the job. Is this a fixed cost, cost+, cost with fixed management, or some other cost structure?
What stage is the project in? How complete are your plans and specs, including site planning and engineering?
You may be getting "safely ballparked," but from what info you have given, you have laid out requirements for a house that will come in at over $225, your cost from a builder, land not included.
Sounds cheap for what you're getting.
Kuityerbitchin and pay attention to the details that will make it all the more livable.
As far as price - do you need any more people to tell you that you're buying at the top of the market under very competitive conditions?
Consider yourself lucky that money is as cheep as it is. Knowing that, any future refinancings will probably be at higher interest rates, so you better do it right the first time. Sooner or later inflation will pick up to make those payments seem cheep as long as you stay done and IN the house.
I think you just hit the nail square on the head. TOP OF THE MARKET!
House around the corner I could have bought for 185K 3 years ago just went for 325K a week ago.
I think we need more information, to tell if your getting a deal or hosed. How did you find your builder? A simple call to the local building department could give you a wealth of information on your builder with a few simple questions.
With what little info you posted prices seem high $19 sf.ft. for roughs. $1000 per window/ door. $7 ft for trim. You must be using some nice stuff or your building in Aspen Colorado.
This is real easy.....
Do a study of the other homes in your immediate vicinity. The next door neighbor, the house down the street... or maybe you are in a development and have a lot of homes close by. Find all of the homes with the same specs as close to you house as possible (same number of bed, same bath, etc... don't worry about big differences in floor plan but you can't compare a ranch to a two story colonial)
Now how much did those houses sell for? What would they sell for today?
Ok, so when you are done building and you get the final bill, will you be able to sell your house for the same amount of money? Less..... Why? Keep in mind selling your house for the same amount of money includes paying the realtor and having a little money left over for yourself.
Remember, the value of your home is not determined by what you pay for it. It is determined by the mortgage lending institution that holds the loan and they determine your homes value by comparable homes in your area.
So, if you are going to end up paying more for your house then you can sell it for, you definitely chose the wrong contractor.
In my area (Cleveland, Ohio), I could have that size home built for much less than that (why are you backing out the tricky concrete work.... you can't have your house without it.... is it making you feel better to see "less than $150 / sq ft"). So maybe your high quality is really more like extravagant. Do you have a security system? Whole house vac? Whole house audio? Intercom? Brick or stone anywhere on the house? Pavers or concrete out back on the walk out? Custom cabinets or name brand? Serious communications wiring package? Long driveway?
Some more to think about,
Rob Kress