New Framed wall wont sit fully onto deck
cottonbum1
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
So i just raised my two non-gable walls today and there is up to a 3/4″ “bubble” in some places. Due to the site, we framed, sheathed, and foamed the wall before raising. It looks like my guy might not have closed the studs all the way up before laying the plywood down. So now when the walls stand- there is a hump in a few places as the plywood is holding it up. We have pounded from above- but mostly bouncing. Trying to figure out if there is a way to pull the entire wall (10′) down in these trouble spots. I also attempted to set up cumalong in between studs from plate to floor- but mainly just busted the fastners.
Also- what would have been a better way to frame the walls on the ground before raising? to prevent this
thaks all
Replies
Bummer
The way I was taught and it works well I think. Chalk a line that is the inside edge of your bottom plate (3-1/2'' in from the outside of your rough wall). Nail the studs, plates and dbl plate it. Drag the stud wall to the line and Toe nail the plate to that line. Nail it every 4'.
Make sure you have the wall straight to that line. Measure diagonals (to the same points) across that stud wall to square it up. Partially nail a couple places at the top plate to keep it there. Sheet it, window it..............then figure out how you're going to lift if.
Lift it, it stays to your chalked toenailed line and will sit flat on the foor (unless the floor is screwed up).
All this is done on the deck out of the mud of course.
I'm trying to figure how you did it. Did you put it together flat on the deck? or the New Jersey way-toenailing?
Agreed
Good advice. Keeping everything square and following chalk-lines are important. Additionally, to assure the bottom plate doesn't move when you lift with the wall jacks, nail some short strips of the metal lumber strapping to the bottom of the bottom plate and to the flooring. You don't need to toe-nail if you use this techniques and only need straps every 10 feet or so. We've used strapping to hold large gables, complete with windows, patio doors, Tyvek and overhang on 12 x 12 roofs and they hold very well. As an added measure, nail them over the floor joist.
Steel strapping is tough. Make sure to wear saftey glasses, turn the pressure up, and "hitting" the strapping with the trigger pulled seems to help drive the 12's through.
Postscript
When you use plywood boxing on the exterior wall, it stays straight and true, foam does not have that advantage of rigidity, but it is also easy for the problem to be with your floor joists. Sill seal will only work for gaps 1/8" or so, you need to find a way to discover the problem or else your roof numbers will give you headaches while setting the skeleton and rafters. If your top plate is running true and the problem is with your floor, that's great news. Fill the gaps with foam and your done. If your top plates are out, then the roof won't come together by the numbers and you will have to take that in account when cutting your rafters.
Have you determined that the deck is flat?
I've seen a situation or two where the subfloor had a hump in it and a wall would rock instead of sitting flat.
If the wall is wrong, the best thing to do is take it apart, straighten it, reattach the sheathing, and stand it up again. In theory you *could* just shim it up level, filling in the spaces under the bottom plate as needed, but then you've raised your plate height and you'll have to do the same with all other walls. Plus, that huge air gap under there will leak cold like a sonofabitch. What you want is the bottom plate tight to the subfloor, preferably sitting on some type of gasket.
If the subfloor is wrong, fix that. Bottom line... if you did something wrong, fix it before going ahead. Time spent now making the frame accurate and consistent will help all thru the rest of the job.
Agree w/ the other guy ... fix the problem. Not sure I understand, though, if you have a wow in the bottom plate, the wall won't be sitting on the plywood ... a hump would be in the plate and it would sit high on the plate, not the plywood. You do line the plywood up w/ the bottom plate and let it go to the top.
I worked w/ a seasoned framer who would tend to agree ... fix the problem. Check the floor first. Is it flat? Is it level? Check the wall, is it straight (on the bottom plate)?
Assuming it's a long wall, sound like the framer didn't take care of checking the plate for straight before putting on the sheathing. Did he check it for square?
Even upright, you might be able to fix it. Slice the foam at the problem area. Remove the nails along the bottom edge, suck up the plate to the studs and renail.
Yup- did that and that
So thanks all for the replies.
We/ my guy did tack the wall to the floor. I know that the subfloor was perfect before building on it. We squared it up and tack both plates down, but i think it might have moved still with the traffic on it. I agree with everyone stating that it needs to be fixed- but i am looking for any ways of doing it before i resort to pullng the entire thing down (as it was a huge task to get it up).
I like the last guys suggestion on cutting through the foam and removing the bottom nails. That might help as i think the studs just need to be brought down flush to the bottom plate and to the floor. Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to repair this issue with the wall standing up?
To recap- wall is framed, sheathed and foamed. As it stands perfectly plumb on a perfect level floor- a few spots of the plate and studs are raised off the floor ( 1/2-3/4" in spots). Want to "sit" the wall down properly.
Here is a question that i might already know the answer--Can i shim the spots that are not touching the ground? this is my non-gable bearing wall
thanks again
assuming the top plate goes up and down
your ceiling would also unless you cut into the bottom of the ceiling joists.
the fascia would roll up and down unless you cut the birdmouth higher.
If the top plate is flat and true-shim the bottom plate or the studs-perhaps the precuts were cut wrong? or if you cut all your studs, different on a couple?
Pull the sheathing nails out on the bottom plate. Take e.g. an old hand saw and slice the foam along the problem area. then everything should 'settle' (well coax it a bit ... ) into place, then renail the sheathing. Stud nails still in tact.
The other guy brings up a point ... what is the top plate doing? Although IMO, that's less of an issue ... simply shim as needed for the trusses/rafters and you'll be flat/even. If I recall, long after I had stood a wall up, I had to adjust the top plate ... actually I pulled sheathing nails on that and adjusted the top plate wherever needed and shimmed on top of the stud, renailed it and was good to go. My framer used a laser level to shoot a level line across all my studs and I used that reference to adjust the top plate.
While a bit of a pain, it really wasn't that big of a deal. He taught me that ... I'd whine about e.g. removing a joist hanger bracket after install a little wrong and he'd just say that is what my 'eraser' was for (i.e. that little prybar/hook I keep in my pouch). I learned it really wasn't that big of a deal ... just get in there and correct it ... I tell everyone I built two houses 'cause all the stuff I had to do twice!! ;)
Total confusion
I've read and re-read your description of the situation and it's clear as mud to me. I'd suggest a photo or two.
By "foamed" do you mean you sprayed foam into the stud bays on the interior side? If so, no amount of coaxing will straighten out the wall... it is simply too well glued together.
I'm pretty sure
he means that he nailed foam board to the outside of the sheathing.
I'm also pretty sure he doesn't want to expend the effort to fix it, he wants to shim under the wall instead. I now feel that he should do this, so that he learns what a lousy idea it is and won't do it again next time.
What is your top plate doing? If you pull a string line on it, is it going up and down, running parrallel to your bottom plate (where your bottom plate is up off the subfloor is the top plate above the string line?). If it is, then shimming the bottom plate at the gaps isnt gonna help with your wavy top plate ( which as other people have said is then gonna cause you problems).
If it really is the plywood thats causing the humps, around the high spots cut or pull the nails holding the plywood to the bottom plate. This should free up the bottom plate. Smash the bottom plate down and nail off to subfloor. Then hit the top plate/ wall down and renail the plywood to bottom plate.
Not sure if this will work or not. Something just doesnt sound right with this wall. How exactly did you guys build this wall? Snapped a line on the subfloor, tacked bottom plate to the line, framed up wall on the deck? Then squared up the wall and sheathed? Did you guys sheath the entire wall with plywood/osb and then cover sheathing with foam or did you sheath the corners and then infill with foam board?
m2akita
>>It looks like my guy might
>>It looks like my guy might not have closed the studs all the way up before laying the plywood down. So now when the walls stand- there is a hump in a few places as the plywood is holding it up.
huh?
are you saying that you think that when the framing was on the deck, not all of the studs were up against the plates? I.e. that the plates weren't parallel, but bowed away from each other?
Oh my, I didn't catch that or
Oh my, I didn't catch that or read the original post carefully enough. There is no excuse for this kind of sloppy framing... after chaulking the inside of the wall, toenail the bottom as suggested in the first post, set the top and double top plate against the bottom plate for stud layout and cutouts for interior walls, the gofer is crowning and laying studs right behind me; after a 14 or 16' section is ready, he picks up the top plates and uses them to push the precuts to the bottom, move the double top aside and cut as needed.
To keep the all the studs tight to the top and bottom plate, nail the first and last stud of the wall section together first, this places enough pressure against the studs between them to minimize the gap caused by kick-back of the air-nailer.
Very basic stuff and please do not ever place a come-along on a wall ever again.
As far as solving your problem, the only thing I can think of is what was mentioned earlier, cut the staples at the bottom to close the gap in the framing. If you overhang your plywood to cover the outside rim to tie everything together like we do, then you are in for a treat (might want to pack lunch and supper that day).
String a chalkline across the top of the outside corner studs and snap the line. Cut the top of the studs at the high spots and bang your top plate down to the studs and now you will have a straight/level top plate . Shim the bottom plate. No reason at all to take the wall down. The top plate has to be straight and level and that is a simple fix.
going forward...
I know you said you sheathed and foamed the wall(s?) before raising because of the terain - which I don't really get (foamed?) (terain?) but I will say that most all the different framing crews I have used sheath the 1st walls after they raise them. Maybe if the foundation below was 10' tall... Sheathing the walls later give the helpers something to do while the carpenters are cutting the roof.
I helped my (then) relative raise the 2nd floor of a garage once. We sheathed AND SIDED the walls before raising them.
what i did
what i ended up doing was cutting the studs down level. since i had the 5.5 of studs, .5 of sheathing, and 1.5 of foam, I busted out the 16" makita timber saw. we tacked a plate to run the saw across to keep it straight. the most challenging part was in between the stud cavity. but the walls are now perfect and we are moving foward. btw- my guy who did the horrible job framing, is now delegated to building the outhouse.