I am looking for opinions before choosing a replacement boiler. My duplex condo is ~1,600 sq ft, two zones of mostly basesboard (2 Runtal towel warmers). I also have a 200 sq ft sunroom with radiant floor heat that I set at 40 degree in the winter. My existing Burnham boiler is 18-20 years old and I have an 60 gal electric HW heater. Only two people live here. We have 2 baths (one with a large, but seldom used whirlpool tub), a dishwasher and a washing machine.
The proposals (all within $500 +/-) are as follows:
1. Lochinvar KBN080 & Lochinvar 40 gal Indirect Fired SS Water Heater
2. Burnham Alpine #80 & Superstore 80 gal HW Heater
3. Munchkin MC80 Wall Hung Boiler & Superstore 60 or 80 gal HW Heater
4. Weil-McLain Ultra 105 & Super Stor Ultra60 60 gal Indirect HW Heater
All of these boilers appear to be ‘state-of-the-art’ so I can’t determine their track record. Therefore, I’m asking for feedback on each of these proposals? Is one boiler significantly superior (or inferior) to the others? Is 40 gal too small? Is 80 gal too big?
Thanks,
Richard
Replies
3. Munchkin MC80 Wall Hung Boiler & Superstore 60 or 80 gal HW Heater
do you mean 60 or 80 gallon storage tank? or are you buying two heating devices, one for the radiant heat and one for DHW?
I'll have to double-check the proposal but I think the Munchkin would provide heat for 4 zones, 3 for heat and 1 (priority) for DHW.
why is the ultra a 105 instead of an 80?
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Good question. Contractor is oversizing? Should I get my utility company to do a heat loss analysis?
seems unlikely that 3 out of 4 contractors have undersized their boilers, and unless the indirect is smaller (because the boiler is bigger) I would say yes, that contractor is oversizing.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I think most of the propsals were based on the existing boiler.
Based upon the feedback, I'm leaning toward the combination Lochinvar Knight (KNB080) boiler and Squire (40 gallon) water heater. Do you think 40 gallons is big enough (remember the seldom used whirlpool tub)?
probably not.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I asked the contractor about potential problems at re-sale (at inspection?) with filling the whirlpool tub with the Lochinvar Squire 40 gallon HW heater. He said he could upgrade to a 52 gal for $150, his cost and no additional labor.
I think that might get him the job (btw, he was my first choice).
I thank you all for all of the interesting and useful information.
Any last thoughts?
Edited 11/3/2009 9:38 am ET by richardi
Why do you need a new boiler, @ 20 yrs that Burnham is just getting broken in!!!
I have an older WM he boiler, from the 60's,
over sized of coarse.
3500 sq ft solid brick 2 story, in the process of redoing windows and attic insulation.
Michigan, gas & electric will top $1,000.00 a month in the coldest month!!!
I have been thinking of doing the same, all the boilers you mentioned looked like good choices.
If I made the move, I was leaning towards WM ultra.
Thanks for the feedback. Would that coice be based on your satisfaction with your existing unit or what?
If your doing other energy-related upgrades, you might want to wait until next year. Take the tax credits this year for the windows and/or storms (and again next year for the heating?)
Yep!! Trying to get all the energy credit $$ I can this year.I need to do a couple repairs to the boiler that would be about $500.00-$1,000.00 , I have been limping along, hope to get by untill next year. That $$ would go nice towards a new boiler rather than in this.
Remember, I am in Michigan, near Flint, that were GM used to be!!!I have read good thing about the WM ultra.
The installer and proper sizing is the most important part, IMO, thats why Rob asked why not the 80 instead of the 105
NTRRob is pretty good at this stuff. I visit heatinghelp.com often., very nice people there, almost as nice as here!!Good luck!
I believe that with the exception of solar energy and maybe geothermal the total energy credit is fixed for 2009 &2010. It does not matter in which year or combination of years you use it you are still limited to the same total..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I'd opt for a smaller house. ;) THEN I'd worry about switching boilers.
you got that right!!
i was looking at the slantfin "lynx" modulating, condensing boiler. the guy at the supply house showed me the munchkin. great looking unit.
went home and googled munchkin. can't remember what site i ended up on. but lots and lots of horror stories. people are considering a class action suit.
so i'm sticking with the slantfin. http://slantfin.ca/product-lynx.html
anyone have any experience with the munchkin?
the most important part of any boiler install is the installer.if you have an installer with experience with munchkins, and a good track record, tread without fear. Munchkin got a lot of "arrows in the back" being early in the mod/con game.Otherwise, installer preference trumps any other boiler qualifications in nearly all circumstances. in good hands, any modern mod/con boiler can perform well. In poor hands, they can all be "screwed up". some, easier than others, but experience is key in any case.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Thanks for the input!
How does one determine installer experience with a particular product? Number of installations? References from people with the particular boiler?
tough question. they should indicate what their experience is in quantifiable number of units and years spent installing them. references are good. even better if you can get referrals from people you trust.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Number of installs? Hmm not necessarily. If he's fast and quick he'll install a lot, but maybe not do a good job. References? That'd be good. Also check e.g. complaints against his contracting license for hints of problems during the job. It's usually WAY EASY to obtain w/ the internet and public records. Find out if his insurance/bond is up to date.
The one who documents what he intends is in my book better. He's willing to go past the small talk and provide what he's doing in writing. You might ask him to tell you what energy saving aspects he has w/ his proposal and document the control modes/sequences. He doesn't have to be detailed ... a performance spec would be good ... e.g. he is going to reset the supply hot water temp based on 'X' and accomplish this w/ e.g. a 3 way valve on the supply or return (can't recall the right one there).
Make sure he gets a permit, submits a plan, and gets inspections. HINT ... when he does this, bend the BO's ear for some informal opinion about how good it is.
Use your intuition to your benefit. Does he really know what he's talking about or is he a braggart that loves to talk about everything he knows and what it is he has done? Ditto the BO - some may not know their arse from a hole in the ground. A good contractor will explain how it works and why, not just that he's always done it that way or done it a million times. If he tends to be reluctant to explain it ... lose him. Food for thought.
Eighteen months ago I purchased a Knight KBN080 and it heated just the basement floor for one heating season keeping only the basement above freezing during major remodelling (i.e. low hours in service). Several days after beginning this heating season I now have a $1,020.00 repair bill to replace the circuit board six months out of warranty. This represents 1/4 to 1/3 of the entire purchase price of the boiler.
This can't necesarily be an indictment on Lochinvar as after doing major research like you and considering different proposals I learned that they as a company and this boiler has a good reputation. It does however make me wonder how much gas I could have purchased with a less complicated, less efficient boiler for this repair cost. I assume all boilers and furnaces now have brains inside that can have problems but my old carrier furnace was dirt cheap to replace the board. I now wonder how often I will face major repair costs. I consulted with tech. services at Lochinvar and was told that they will diagnose the board if it is sent in by the distributor but blame the failure on a voltage spike even if there is no evidence of it left on the board. We have never lost any electronics in fourteen years here and there was no lightning in the area that day. I also got a bad feeling that there is not good communication between the mfr and the techs in the field. He critisized the tech for following the repair manual saying it was written by marketing dept, not tech services... huh? My hvac contractor was not unfamiliar with this unit having sold many in ther area so it wasn't lack of experience.
Since I spent a lot on the radiant system I went cheap on a furnace to blow A/C and use as back up heat. This cheap-o furnace has a FIVE year minimum warranty on parts and labor and it too has a board inside that is covered. Seems that furnace manufacturers are willing to give a respectable warranty on their work and boiler makers avoid this. Lochinvar now offers an extended warranty for extra cost, I would recommend it. It was not offered to me and may not have been available back then.
Best of luck in whatever you choose.
We have choice #4 in the WM Ultra III 155 model. It's a good boiler but we've had a few controls issues (lockouts) that theoretically have been fixed.
Burnham is a great name but I've only specified their oil boilers.
Jeff
Make sure they pipe it right.
You must do primary/secondary loops with the condensing boilers.
The good condensing boiler manufacturers include a pump. This pump is for the primary loop. The boiler HX has a high head loss- which is why they provide the pump.
Every other zone must have its own pump. The new generation of variable speed pumps with sensors can make for a very comfortable and efficient system. Smart people know that the upfront installation costs are small potatoes compared to long term operating costs.
The colder the return water to that condensing boiler, the more efficient it becomes. That is why piping is so important. If everything is done right to ensure maximum heat transfer, you get the most out of your heating dollars. The new variable speed pumps will modulate and deliver the 20* temperature difference that many designs are based on without redoing all of the piping and/or adding balancing valves that were never installed in the beginning because they cost a little extra.
If your current system is a primary loop only, and they stick a condensing boiler in there, you are gonna be very disappointed when it doesn't work... and it won't matter what name is on the box.
Your installer should have asked you some questions about hot water use, and then sized the indirect heater to meet your first hour demands. That is the only way to have it done right. The math is easy. First hour supply capacity of an indirect tank compared to a standard gas/electric water heater is huge. The "tank within a tank" design compared to the "heating coil inside a tank" design provides faster heat transfer due to more surface area.
Make sure they wire up the built-in outdoor reset control. You might need to make sure they order a sensor.
I wouldn't even consider a condensing appliance that doesn't have provisions to pipe in outdoor combustion air. I wouldn't even consider an installer that then tells me that one pipe is good enough.
Remember, piping is important. So much so, it is in the instruction manual that many installers toss.
A lot of good advice there! The part about getting the right type of boiler for a particular system is so important.
Unfortunately, most heating contractors don't attend to about 50% or more of the points you made.
Lots of heating/cooling equipment will provide heat/cold under a wide range of installed conditions... from poorly installed to correctly installed.
The really technical and efficient stuff won't.
I design primary loop only mod/cons every day, and I never upsize my system pumps for it..you need to maintain a minimum flow rate through the unit. You need to make sure you have the maximum flow and frictional loss covered with the pump sizing as well.but the vast majority of homes don't need more than 3 to 6 GPM of flow under design conditions. It's quite possible for a standard size circulator to provide that going through a mod/con boiler. Some are worse than others, but many work just fine at that flow rate in a primary configuration only. Primary secondary on EVERY install is simply laziness.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Well, I looked in my IBR book today, and condensing boilers with a high head HX need primary/secondary piping.
So, as long as the contractor knows what they are doing, everyone will be OK
:)
IBR is great, but it's general.If you have a 3 to 5 GPM system requirement, you can usually push that through any boiler, even a "high head" one, without much difficulty. and that flow range can encompass most normal, modern homes.you still have to address minimum flow on multizone systems, but a bypass valve does the trick nicely.So in short: primary/secondary is a waste of a pump and its pump energy on a whole lot of systems out there. I do not regard it as "high design" in most cases. it does, however, keep systems that are NOT designed out of some trouble in some cases. so when I see it on a small system, I know someone was NOT running the numbers.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Thanks for the input.
Would you mind explaining the primary/secondary loops concept. One contractor did make note of the radiant heat zone (with mixing valve?).
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Edited 11/2/2009 9:10 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Thanks for the diagram. I am assuming the secondary zone is the line below ZONE 1. Is the piece of hardware marked witht the 25 a mixing valve or a pump?
Legend added