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Discussion Forum

New hardwood floor cupping near doors

d2v | Posted in General Discussion on December 17, 2003 10:41am

Hi, all. My contractor installed my beautiful Jatoba floor while I was gone this past September; he also replaced a three-panel sliding patio door with french doors and sidelights. When I came home the first of November, everything was gorgeous. I had to leave again for a month and turned the heat way down (in-floor, hung between the joists) and when I returned I found that the floor is cupping badly in front of the new doors. I don’t know whether moisture is coming in under/around the doors, or whether it was wet when they installed them and the floor got wet. The floor butts against the doors; some of the boards are cupped as much as ten feet in from the doors. I am hoping that with the heat back to normal the boards will flatten out. I’m wondering if there is something I could or should be doing — my contractor is gone until after Christmas — to give it the best chance.

Seems like the in-floor heating would cause gaps, not cupping –??

The house, while unfinished, has been weather-tight for several years. The problem floor is the second floor; the ground floor has a slab with in-floor heat. The flooring is doing fine everywhere else; but this section that is cupped is about 10′ X 10′. Suggestions? Should I turn the heat up high on that floor? Is there anything I can do (as a non-carpenter) to improve the seal between the doors and the floors? The new doors are not trimmed yet; and the gaps around them are not insulated.

I will surely appreciate any help you folks can give.

– Deb

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Sphere | Dec 18, 2003 12:05am | #1

    Is the sun shining in there? Could be the top is heating up/drying out faster than the bottom..maybe the floor was not in the house long enough before install..actually unbundled, not just stacked in a heap. I bet the sun is the culprit.

    1. d2v | Dec 18, 2003 12:30am | #2

      The Italians have a word for that -- "magare" -- it means "would that it were." I live in a rain forest (Southeast Alaska). It has either been snowing or raining for at least the past week, and MONTHS since a hot sunny day.

      The flooring WAS still in boxes for the time it acclimated; but the only problem area is in front of those doors. And the doors are on the weather side.

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Dec 18, 2003 01:03am | #4

        Probly water then gettin in. I love Alaska..but not that part. Give me Wasilla anyday, or Soldotna.

        Is it cupped like a palm up or like a palm down? ONE side has grown. if palm up..it is the bottom side expanded (damp underneath) palm down, the top has expanded from moisture.

        1. d2v | Dec 18, 2003 02:23am | #6

          It's definitely moisture on the bottom; the edges are higher than the center. Palm up. Do you think it is still coming in?? (How would you know.) But if it cups way in from the door -- i.e., ten feet, would the moisture be traveling latterally like that? Or must it be coming from directly under the cupped part? The first floor is finished space -- can't see the subfloor. There's certainly no staining of the sheetrock down there.

          I wasn't here when they installed the door; I don't know if the subfloor got soaked. Or even which was done first, the floor or the door.

          1. MojoMan | Dec 18, 2003 02:39am | #8

            I'm pretty sure the direction of the cupping depends on the orientation of the growth rings in the board and not on the source of the water. The cupping most likely indicates the moisture content has changed since the floor was sanded. It could be wetter, or drier (although that seems unlikely in your case). It cups one way when wet and the other when dry. Unless, of course, the wood is vertical grain, which is prized for its stability.

            Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

          2. User avater
            Sphere | Dec 18, 2003 04:46am | #11

            Ah..not really, wood will gain dimension due to being hydroscopic..it exchanges moisture freely, unless something impedes that like a finish on one side and not the other. Given that the material was kiln dried it has been so far removed from its original relationship with the tree, that the growth rings are not as indicitive to it's behavior when subjected to sudden cellular absorbsion.

            The old addage/argument of SYP decks does not apply here. But then again...may be the installer hit one of those radiant tubes..

  2. MojoMan | Dec 18, 2003 12:50am | #3

    How long has the heat been up to normal temperature? In time, the flooring may dry, shrink and flatten. Have you been naughty or nice?

    Can you see the subfloor from down below? Any sign of it having been wet by water coming through the door opening?

    Was the door opening left open to the weather while the work was going on? Maybe the subfloor got soaked and hasn't dried yet and the moisture migrated into the hardwood.

    Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

    1. d2v | Dec 18, 2003 02:17am | #5

      The heat's been up for only 6 days. It may be my imagination, but it just might look better. How long 'till I find out whether I've been naughty?? What's the longest I can still be hoping it may flatten?

      1. MojoMan | Dec 18, 2003 02:31am | #7

        Only time will tell. The fact that it's only happening near the door seems to indicate that that area was wet, or is still getting wet. If the subfloor and flooring got wet during remodeling, it might take a couple of weeks, unless it's still getting wet. Extreme humidity outside can't help. Do you have a dehumidifier?

        A few years ago, I had a 5" wide hickory floor installed for a good customer. In the first six months or so, it went from flat to bulging up (humid summer) to gaps between boards (heating in winter). Eventually things seemed to settle down. I'm pretty sure flooring in wider widths is more susceptible to these problems. I'll stick with good old 2 1/4" from now on.

        Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

  3. andybuildz | Dec 18, 2003 03:51am | #9

    coinsidences happen...Question: Is the floor tight to the wall over on the door side.....?

    My life is my practice!

    http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

    1. User avater
      Sphere | Dec 18, 2003 04:35am | #10

      As Andy said "question".

      Is the floor running at a right angle to the door or parallel? Water wiil follow with the grain readily. I would look at the threshold both in and out.

  4. Piffin | Dec 18, 2003 04:57am | #12

    It really doesn't matter if your climate is wet, Deb. If the sun shines and the door set faces south, that could still bne contributing. Thgere can be a combination of moisture under, and excessive or faster drying on the surface.

    I don't believe there is anythjing you have done wrong re the heat because of the fact that the problem is only near the doors.

    My bet is that there is a leak under the threshold from lack of caulk and or pan flashing, and that leak is running back on the subfloor so the flooring wicks it up, expanding on the bottom to causethe cupping.

    Al is part right. Grain orientation will be a contributing factor but when wood is wetted fron only one side, that is the side that greows, regardless of grain orientation. We pay attention to the grain when laying shingles or trim boards sometimes to help countreeract the moisture problems but can't overcome it altogether.

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. d2v | Dec 18, 2003 06:36am | #13

      To all: Thanks so much for your thoughts.

      The floor runs perpendicular to the door; and butts right up against the doorjamb. Should I have put a strip of tile or something as a threshhold? Or a couple of strips parallel, then butt up to that? I know my contractor didn't hit the pex; there'd be water all over the ceiling below.

      I tend to think that either water is still getting in or that quite a bit got in during installation. The wood was prefinished, so seems logical to me that the bottom is swelling. I asked the folks who sold it to me if I should back-prime it; but they'd never heard of such a thing.

      How can I check on the caulking etc?? Is there any thing I can do to try to keep more from coming in??

      1. Piffin | Dec 18, 2003 07:06am | #14

        When I said leak, I didn't mean from the Pex. That would be obvious in more ways than one.

        I meant from outside, coming in under the threashold.

        You could ask the contractor, if you trust his answer.

        It is possible that the subfloor was badly wetted during the installation process and is just now showing up, but I don't lean that way.

        If it is from failing to seal and flash under the door ( one of the most common problems seen in new construction, by the way) the only way to fix it would be to remove, and re-install the door unit, not a freindly idea..

        Excellence is its own reward!

        1. d2v | Dec 18, 2003 10:14pm | #15

          I DO trust the contractor; he will be brokenhearted when he learns about this. But I didn't want to burden him right now as he has other stuff on his mind. But I tend to agree it is probably a leak underneath the door.

          When I bought this house a year ago, it was unfinished. There was a three-panel sliding glass door arrangement that I didn't like, that I wanted replaced with the french doors & sidelights. So this new unit just went in where the old one was. I don't know anything about installing exterior doors, specifically, whether the flashing you are talking about would have been put in when making the opening for the original unit, or would go with the replacement. The replacement fit the opening without modification. There certainly was no noticable leak under the old unit, onto the subfloor -- I lived here with the plywood floor & old unit for nearly a year.

          The contractor built a deck outside the "door to nowhere" before he changed out the doors. I know he knows all about keeping the ledger away from the siding; the ledger is bolted to the house well wide of the problem area, and I can see daylight between the deck & the house all in front of the door. So that's not the problem.

          I guess I'll have to ask him if the floor got very wet during installation, and about the flashing/caulking. I was hoping it would go back to flat before he got back.

          My main concern is whether there is anything I should be doing to prevent further harm; if there is any "time sensitive" consideration here -- or if leaving the whole thing until after the holidays will be as good as anything.

          Here are a couple of pics -- "before", a month ago, and today.

          1. User avater
            Sphere | Dec 18, 2003 10:34pm | #16

            Wow..expensive bummer. Gives a whole new meaning to "floating" floor. You fer certain have water damage, could it possibly have happened while you were away? Like was someone there that may have left the door open by accident? If not, it very well could be the door install as said above..sealant, flashing not doing its thing. Also is there a gutter above the door opening or is water splashing up off the deck on to the glass? Could be running down the glass finds the threshold and leaks in there. Even if he flashed and sealed with silicone. Close the door and put a hose to the outside of the door and look for leaks inside. Got nothingg to lose 'cept some already cupped sticks of floor. and may point you in the right direction so that if he replaces the bad stuff it won't repeat.

          2. d2v | Dec 19, 2003 12:48am | #17

            Yeah, we've definitely got to figure out where it is coming from before replacing the floor. The good news is that I think I have enough flooring left over from the project to replace all of the damage. That IS the weather side; if it can get in under the threshold, which may be the problem, it doesn't need to splash off the deck. There's a bit of roof two floors up over the front of the house (a gable) that sticks out about 2 feet. But that's not enough when the rain comes down at a 45 degree angle. Maybe I'll just have to roof over some of the deck.

            Thanks for all your thoughts & help.

          3. BillW | Dec 19, 2003 01:45am | #18

            Deb - I had the exact same problem on my previous house - I did a double take when i saw your pix because everything about it is identical.  Ours was definitely water coming under the door.  I recommend you fix that first, then see if the floor needs repair - once dry, it might settle down, or at least maybe you can just sand and refinish the damaged area - if it's no longer getting wet, it should stay flat.  Hopefully you won't have to replace it at all.  This is theoretical, since I never fixed mine - I was transfered and sold the house before I got to it.

            By the way, I had a builder I really trusted, but I remember watching one of the guys on his crew empty a couple of huge tubes of Sikoflex (sp) caulk under that door, thinking at the time that he was being thorough.  In retrospect, there shouldn't have been a gap big enough to need that much caulk.

            Good luck ... Bill.

          4. d2v | Dec 19, 2003 04:03am | #20

            Thanks, Bill --- I expect you are right. Is there anything I can do right now to keep the water out until the door can be fixed??

          5. Piffin | Dec 19, 2003 03:48am | #19

            Holy Salmon cakes Batwoman! That is more than just cupping. i was imagining that each individual piece was expanding from the back and the edges curling up just enough to form a cup, repeated for each piece.

            What you have is uplift. There is so much growth from water that all pieces have grown enough to put pressure beyiond what the nails and pscae available can withstand, so the whole floor is seeking release. That much water is almost cetainly getting in under the door threshold. He'll have to pull the door unit and reseat it, IMHO.

            The photos also bring another Q to my mind. Is this deck on the same level as the interior finished floor? It almost appears to be but I can't tell. There are some places where codes require that, but here in Coastal Maine, we have a similar maritime climate ( except our wet comes from the east) and the local standard is that only a flatlander will build a deck that way because it is expected to cause problems. Water can't drain away quickly enough and snow/ice builds up to prevent emergency egress. We always build decks to finish at least 4" below the threshold.

            BYW, it was hard for me to focus on the floor. My field of focus kept wandering out to your view. Maybe that will help you overloook the little floor problem, eh?

            ;).

            Excellence is its own reward!

          6. d2v | Dec 19, 2003 04:09am | #21

            Yeah, the deck is nearly flush, but the doors open in, so how could you not be able to get out??

            Yep, the view makes up for a lot. And the sun does shine sometimes -- see attached.

            Bottom line is they are only sticks of wood. It's not like losing your love.

            -- Deb

          7. Piffin | Dec 19, 2003 04:32am | #23

            Thanks for the picture to add to my files.

            I was in my way to move to AK three times in my life and circumstances conspired against me.

            The only sure way to prevent further damage until he gets it fixed is to tent out over the door a ways with poly.

            Excellence is its own reward!

          8. d2v | Dec 19, 2003 04:47am | #25

            That's what I'll do. Tent tomorrow. Thanks.

          9. User avater
            Sphere | Dec 19, 2003 09:15pm | #26

            Better awtch out, sounds like piffs on his way to your house to fix it!..Are you far from Portage?

          10. d2v | Dec 19, 2003 09:36pm | #27

            OK by me! I can use all the help I can get.

            I'm near Juneau; Portage is near Anchorage -- quite a ways from here. I have to go through Canada to get there.

          11. User avater
            Sphere | Dec 19, 2003 09:43pm | #28

            I had to go to Anchorage for a funeral..airline said there would be a 6 hr. layover at SeaTac..I said No big deal , can stay/kill time with a relative, that is also going up.  Airline says "well, mabey you could all DRIVE to Anchorage together and SAVE some time"..Whats it take about a week?..ha ha ..

          12. d2v | Dec 20, 2003 04:32am | #29

            I've driven "outside" -- to Michigan -- the last few years; it takes me two days to drive the Alaska Highway to where I get off to go to Southeast Alaska; it is another day and a half to Anchorage. This is counting from the start of the highway at Dawson Creek, BC. From Seattle, you have to go pretty far east to get to the start of the highway. Take the ferry from Seattle!

            You don't say where you'd start from. It takes me about five long days to get to Michigan. The Highway is just a two lane paved road any more; not the adventure of old!

          13. User avater
            Sphere | Dec 20, 2003 04:51am | #30

            I woulda had to drive from seattle, the airport. To Anchorage to save a 6 + hr. layover. Wound up leaving Allentown , Pa. to Harrisburg, Pa. to Detroit, Mi, to SeaTac, to Anchorage. only like 16 hrs, all  in all..Then got to drive up past Talkeetna..whew.

            I stayed and visited and 3 weeks..never saw the top of Danali the whole time..clouded over. I loved Thompson pass and Valdez areas..oh yeah and the Matanuska Valley..my x lived there most of her life..had a moose rip out a window when he was pokeing in his head to nibble on flowers on the table. The dog (a little yappy thang) attacked the moose..moose did the quick back out but forgot that he had to wiggle his head to get in, and would have to do teh same to get out..she has a picture of the hole in the cabin wall with the moose running away with the window frame like a necklace..she was getting a pic. of the moose eating the flowers at the time..

            I could go on ..but I'll spare ya..Duane

          14. d2v | Dec 20, 2003 05:21am | #31

            Too bad the weather was bad. Speaking of little yappy things, did you hear this one? It was in the Anchorage paper a few years ago. Couple in a big Lumbago stopped in a gas station in Valdez, and let the little yapper out for a bit. An eagle swooped down and carried him off. Wife was devastated; husband comforted her, gave her hugs -- then walked around the other side of the RV and raised his fist, saying "YES".

            One wonders if they are still together.

            I tented the door; we'll see if the floor lays back down any.

          15. UncleDunc | Dec 20, 2003 07:23am | #32

            I won't say it wasn't in the paper, but I saw it in one of Dana Stabenow's Kate Shugak novels.

            Edited 12/20/2003 12:04:06 AM ET by Uncle Dunc

          16. d2v | Dec 20, 2003 09:53am | #33

            Could be! I haven't read them all. She sure does use the real stuff. What book was that, do you remember?

            I read it either in the Anchorage or the Juneau paper. Wonder which paper the wife saw.

          17. UncleDunc | Dec 20, 2003 10:12am | #34

            Play With Fire.

          18. Piffin | Dec 19, 2003 04:40am | #24

            Main doors are inswing but screens and storms generally open out.

            Looks like yoiu are the victim of a conspiracy too. Deck holding water right up high immediately under the threshold. Wind driving planty more in. lack of sufficient sealant or flashing pan under the threshold to prevent ingress.

            The combination of (IMO) poor deck design with regards to elevation and less than perfect craftsmanship on the door installation, work together against the poor floor. He's outnumbered and out gunned. No wonder he has a defeatist attitude and lays down to let people walk all over him. He's probably just trying to get a little lift in life by jumping up just an inch to be able to see the view.

            ;).

            Excellence is its own reward!

          19. Piffin | Dec 19, 2003 04:17am | #22

            In the attached PDF, see figure 3 on page 2 for an eaxample of a pan flashing. This can be bought in a PVC sleave material or made up from soldered copper, or simply laid in with Vycor peel and stick with the back edge turned up to prevent ingress.

            http://www.stocorp.com/servicessto.nsf/htmlmedia/flashings.pdf/$file/flashings.pdf.

            Excellence is its own reward!

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