New Hardwood floor install: Fastening?
Hi all!
Well, the current project is to lay out about 400 s.f. of white oak 3/4″ thick strip flooring. We’ve been thinking of this project for a while now. The other day, when everyone was out of the house, I had my fill of this carpeting, so I tore out the carpet and padding, and got down to the plywood floor. So I guess that means we’re committed to doing it now!
We’ll be buying the flooring material today, and spreading out the bundles for three days to settle out to the humidity level in the house.
We were planning on using a Bostitch air-assited nailer to fasten down the oak, but the rental shop has both a nailer and a stapler, as well as a manual nailer. Both nailers use flat, serrated “nails” with a sort-of hooked head. The stapler uses regular-looking staples.
So, the question is: Do we use staples or nails? And if we use nails, do we use the “manual” nailer, or the air-assisted one?
I’ve heard or read that the manual nailer fastens the flooring better, because it takes a good whack to set the nail and the strips end up tighter. True? And if so, how hard of a whack are we talking? I don’t want to look like I’ve been lifting weights with only my right arm…
Replies
I've heard or read that the manual nailer fastens the flooring better, because it takes a good whack to set the nail and the strips end up tighter. True? And if so, how hard of a whack are we talking? I don't want to look like I've been lifting weights with only my right arm...
Melissa,
I used to think that the only way was the manual way, until we had to help install a 10,000 sq. ft. gym in maple. The contractor we assisted had the Bostich air nailers. I was amazed. They drive the boards plenty tight with a whole lot less effort. And yes, the manual jobs take a damn good whack to drive a nail.
If you aren't worried about the additional rental cost, get the pneumatics, it will make the job a whole lot more pleasurable.
If the rental place has a manual face nailer to rent, get one of those, too. They drive the same cleat nail through the face for when you get close to the wall and you can't use the big gun any more. The face nailed cleat nail is a slot shape, which blends with white oak grain better than using a round head finish nail. For white oak, go with the cleat nails, not the staples. Not a big deal, just a preference. Nail every joist, minimum.
carpenter in transition
Edited 4/23/2004 8:51 pm ET by TIM_KLINE
Hi Tim:
Thanks for the reply. The cost of the pneumatic nailer is only a few dollars a day more than the manual. So cost isn't really an issue. I'd like to do the best job possible, so I'm more concerned with the "best" way.
So far, you've voted "nails" and there are two votes for "staples." I was tending to nails rather than staples, so I'm still not sure what to do.
If there's nothing more than a preference involved, I'd probably go with the nails. I'm thinking nails were used for decades before staples, so they can't be all that bad.
Plus the nails come in smaller packages and are cheaper, so I won't spend as much...
:)
Ditto to the previous comment. We use the Bostitch stapler for our floors. Gets them nice and tight.
regards
mark
Quittintime
Hi Mark:
Thanks for weighing in. So you prefer staples? Any particular reason?
Thanks for the pictures. That looks like it'll be a nice room when done. I'm curious about how you're installing over sleepers. Is that a concrete floor underneath? It doesn't look like there's any plastic under the sleepers, so I wasn't sure. And I didn't think hardwood was installed over concrete.
BTW, I hope the dog wasn't nailed/stapled down, right? :)
Hello Melissa
Yes I do prefer staples. The wide crown gives a lot more hold down ability than a single nail head. We don't join on a joist as all our flooring is endmatched. ( we are in Australia and the floor in the pictures is of Australian Jarrah. Yes it has come up very nice with deep reds and browns )
No there is no plastic under the sleepers. For two resons.
1. It would only be penotrated with fixings anyway thus negating the purpose
2. The slab has a 100um poly barrier under it anyway. ( plus this is Australia and it never rains here. ( at least it seems that way at times ))
No the dog wasn't nailed down, ( though there are times when we should. She has this habit of throwing up on newly installed floors!)
regards
mark Quittintime
Hi Mark:
I'm starting to think staples are the way to go. The flooring I have is end matched, so I guess I can relax on hitting the joists.
I figured that the sleepers would keep the staples from puncturing plastic laid over the concrete, but then again, fastening the sleepers would puncture it anyway. So, it makes sense that you laid it under the slab.
When garage was built, and the cellar floor poured, I asked that they lay plastic down first, to help stop the moisture wicking up. It seems to have helped keep the humidity down.
Thanks for your help!
air power rent a stapler and a finish gun, 2" fasteners for both you won't be able to handle manual face nailer unless used to it last few courses u will have hands full tightening boards, use scraps, blocks & prybar, nail as someone holds board tight
try to stagger end joints 8" and use 8-9" nail pattern w stapler if breaking a lot of tongues, set air pressure back set initially at 80psi
Thanks, Ed.
So, you prefer staples too? That's two votes for staples, one for nails!
I was planning on 2" fasteners, so I'm glad you mentioned that. I have a 2" finish nailer, and I was figuring on using that on the last row. I've also marked the joists up on the wall where the molding was, so I can be sure to find them when nailing.
What do you mean by 8-9" pattern with the stapler? Am I supposed to nail on every joist, as well as in between each?
And is it critical or recommended to have the joints lay over a joist? Or just nail within a couple of inches of the end of each? The flooring we're getting has tongue & groove on the ends too, so I would think it'd be ok to let the joints fall where they do...
nails cause tongues to split/break less, but staplers will be easier to find at rental houses, been out 20 yrs, nailguns only a few someone said more time in house to acclimate, good advice 8-9" nail pattern means setting fasteners that distance apart forget about hitting the joists, won't help.... 2" fastener shoots on a 45 angle at top of tongue, so through 1/2" of flooring stock, then through 3/4"(typical) of plywood, so 1 1/4" but on an angle this depletes about 1 3/4" of the shank to make any difference in hold power into a joist, at least 1" would have to go into the beam, not gonna happen don't worry, it's fastened to the subfloor tightly not important for end seams to land on a joist u will have to start the first 2-3 courses w the finish nailer, end the last 3 w it also, as the magazine on the flooring gun will contact the wall at the start and not be usable, same at the end wall w the piston and swing room for mallet u can get 4th and 5th from last courses in at end wall by bringing mallet down vertically to contact and trip piston air gun seats stock, but stock should be seated w mallet first, same as u would do w manual gun leave a 1/2" air space between wall and flooring at perimeter of room to let it move humid conditions, drop baseboard onto, not into, this area to hide space, can add shoe or quarter round molding if more is needed
3 days to acclimatize your flooring is very chancy. If you're lucky and the flooring was stored properly and your house is really dry, you may luck out. But you may not. Damp basement, higher than normal or lower than normal humidity. Poorly dried flooring, all sorts of things can make your life difficult. If you're installing prefinished, OK. Its very well sealed. If unfinished, I;d give it longer. I check with a humidity meter and install when the flooring and subfloor match. If you don't have access to a meter, wait as long as you can stand. Preferably at least a week. Two weeks is not unreasonable when you don't know the vendor, the brand and the conditions in the house. If the flooring is too wet and shrinks you get gaps. Not attractive, but not fatal. If its too dry and expands, then it buckles. That is a killer.. Tear out and re-do.
Thanks, Bob:
And here I was thinking three days was good! I don't have a moisture meter. I don't know if I could borrow one. And the flooring is unfinished.
The house is reasonably dry for New England in April! Then again, it's been raining for a few days... Anyway, the cellar below is dry.
The way things are going, I haven't yet bought the flooring. But I could stand letting it sit for a week or more.
But it gets humid around here in the summer. So how does that affect things? I was figuring that doing the install at this time of year was a good midpoint from the humidity extremes.
When the heat is on in the winter, the house gets pretty dry. Last summer was particularly damp, and we even had to fight some mold forming inside on the ceilings - something that's never happened before.
So, how does this flooring handle humidity swings like we get around here?
Flooring stability is fine so long as it is about the same moisture content as the subfloor when installed. Then they both expand/contract about the same. You get the usual seasonal variations, but nothing unusual. If the flooring comes in at 10% and the subfloor is 6, you get gaps, the other way around it can buckle. I like to lay it out right on the subfloor for a week or better. Not stacked or stickered. Then the flooring and subfloor can come to equilibrium better. Doesn't much matter what the exact moisture content is, just that they're close.
If you want to save some work, vacuum the floor, staple down rosin paper. Lay out the flooring about how it will get nailed down except leave a foot or two bare next to the starting wall. That way, when you start installing, just slide a piece from behind you and nail it. If you have baseboard installed, tear it out now. Also undercut door jambs if not already done.. Special saws for that. I use a Fein Multimaster. Keep at least 3/8 away from the walls but no more than 5/8 so the baseboard will cover the gap. If you need to run telephone wiring, stuff it in the gap before the baseboards go back.
I always use nails. Wanted to try staples, but never have. Make sure you have the air pressure set properly and not too long a hose. If you get an occasional nail that does not go in all the way, its a pain. I have an old flat screwdriver I ground to use as a nail set. All the nails have to be all the way in. Any sticking up will cause trouble. For a small job and a first-time DIY effort, do not get a drum or belt sander. Rent a random-orbit pad sander. Slower, but very little chance of trashing the floor. A drum sander can make your floor look like the Atlantic ocean.
Bob,
"A drum sander can make a floor look like th Atlantic Ocean!"
My brother used a drum sander on his wood floor and that is exactly what happened! The entire floor has dips and ridges, a very wavy appearance. What is it about drum sanders that cause this?
Duey
Drum or belt sanders take off a lot of material quickly. Great for a pro with 35 grit to level a floor fast. But they take a lot of skill and practice. Need to move at a very consistent slow speed and learn to feel what the drum is doing. You let the machine pull you along. You have to hold it back and control it. If you just walk with it, every step has a slight pause and a divot. Hard or soft spots or nails or old varnish can be a problem. You don't always want to go with the grain either. Sometimes at an angle is better. One second of inattention and you have a divot an eighth of an inch deep. Definitely not a do-it-yourself tool for most people. Like doing carving with a chainsaw. Takes a fine touch.
The rectangular pad sanders are very forgiving. Slower sanding rate, but things stay flat and they sand right into corners. Round orbital buffer/sanders also have their uses but don't get into corners. The most efficient and quickest way is belt sand to level or strip, a pad sander for fine sanding and a buffer for high-gloss final finish. You can do it all with just the pad sander but it takes probably 3 times as long. Also, the pad sanders are 120 volts where the drum or belt units are 240. Not always easy to get 240 where you need it.
Bob:
The most efficient and quickest way is belt sand to level or strip
Is this belt sander different than the drum sander I was thinking of? You don't mean a hand-held belt sander, I'm guessing!
I was figuring to use the drum sander to just level everything, using a higher grit to start, maybe 60 or 80, but definitely not 35. Then, once it's all level, I figured on using the square pad sander to give it a finer finish. Then poly and use the square pad between coats.
I've used a round floor buffer before. I thought I did read that you could use a fine 3M pad before doing the final coat?
So what exactly do you recommend I do, besides hiring a pro!
The random-orbit sander I'm talking about is not like a furniture sander. Its big, made for floors. Uses a sheet of 12 by 18 paper. OBS is a fairly common one. They're powerful and quiet. On a new floor, if your flooring is good quality and you lay it properly, there isn't a lot of material to remove. The pad sander will give you a level and smooth surface. It does not burn or gouge like a drum.
Drums are fine, but if you don't have the right touch you can make a real mess. Pretty much a necessity on a big floor, but 400 SF is no problem for an orbital. Belt sanders look almost exactly like a drum sander. They just use a big wide belt and the paper is much easier/faster to change. Its also tougher paper. The drums are easier to tear the paper. The belts are zirconia on cloth. If you get a drum sander, you need an edger and a buffer (or orbital) too. 3 times as much stuff to deal with. Orbitals will sand into the corners and will also buff.
For oak, you only need sand to 100 or 120. Cherry needs finer and maple as high as you have the patience unless you're going to stain. Start with 60, then 80, then 100. About 20 or 30 degrees to the grain with 60, each way, until the floor is level. With the grain with 80 until the 60 scratches are invisible. With the grain with 100 or 120 sanding screen. Vacuum in between each grit. Wear white socks, no shoes, for the final sanding. Roll on (or use a lambswool pad - depends on the brand) a coat of sealer. Let dry. Put on 2 coats of finish with proper drying in between. Scuff with scotchbrite (white) and vacuum. Put on final coat. If you have bubbles or nits visible, you can scuff and add a coat until you like it. If you see objectionable little swirly marks after the sealer, re-sand with sanding screen until they go away, then re-seal. I don't like the water-based finishes. You have to get a catalyzed professional brand for it to be halfway decent. They're not for amateur use. A good name-brand oil-based polyurethane. Don't put it on when too hot or too cold. Too cold doesn't level. Too hot gives bubbles.
400 SF = 1 gal sealer, 2 or 2 1/2 gals finish. 3 days rental on the sander, paper and screens, rollers. Probably $250. Compared to maybe $1K for a pro. Small rooms cost more per SF.
Don't buy a jamb saw just to do a couple doors. You can rent them. Or, use a japanese-style flexible saw and a wood block. Fifteen bucks.
Hey Bob:
I was thinking of laying the flooring out as you suggest. I figured it would serve to help me plan the layout, as well as give the wood more surface to dry out.
I've already pulled the baseboards, but havent undercut the doorway yet. I've been looking for the best saw to buy for that. I'll take a look at the Fein.
As for the sander, I thought that the random-orbit pad sander would not do as smooth a finish? Doesn't the flooring need to be sanded with the grain? I know that the first pass is sometimes done at 45 degrees to level it out, but I thought that the random-orbit would leave marks?
I don't mind too much if the sanding process is slower, as long as the finish looks good. I had been planning to use the drum sander before putting on the poly, then using the random-orbit pad between coats...
I've always let my floors acclimate for at least 2-3 weeks.My life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I've done a couple of small rooms. One I did with the manual and one I did with the air gun, both with nails. So my experience is limited....
....but from it I decided if I want the boards to sit tightly next to each other, I had better make sure they are tight before I put in the nail. Manual or air assisted, sometimes a stubborn board won't end up tight.
Use longer boards against the far wall and a sacrificial short piece of the tongue and goove floor to wedge any board that even hints at not wanting to be tight. If the far wall is too far, nail a 2x to the floor and wedge against that.
And from what little I know of it...I agree that three days isn't enough. At least a week.
Finally, be sure to mix in the short pieces from the very beginning.
Oh! Use the air assist. The manual is a hell of lot of work.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Edited 4/24/2004 11:49 pm ET by Rich Beckman
"I don't want to look like I've been lifting weights with only my right arm..."
Your nervous system is symmetrical...anything you do to strengthen one side of your body, also strengthens the side that doesn't do any work. It'd be a good reason to skip the gym for a week... ;-)
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Tim:
I thought that excersise "stessed" a muscle, and that rest rebuilt it. I didn't think that would happen on the side that wasn't stressed.
Learn something here every day!
Have the flooring acclimate to the room where it is to be installed is paramount. If you skimp on this like I did you will sing the blues. The manual staplers are dogs even the new ones, don't screw with them. You won't save any money avoiding a compressor. Treat your floor and what lies underneath like a surgeon. I had on earplugs late at night and had leaky compressor fittings. When I nailed through a water pipe, the water leak sound was masked for some time, but I'm over that now.
-Jacksonian
Melissa,
There's some good intro info here:
http://www.nofma.org/
My recommendations? Use air, use staples, and staple every 8". That way you can still hit the joists should you still be inclined.
One bad thing about hitting the joists is that you'll invariably hit a subfloor nailhead/screwhead with a fastener. the odds of doing so are like hitting the lottery, but it's amazing how your odds improve in the wild world of contruction.
Always pop the air hose off the nailer before clearing a jam.
If you only need a small amount of fasteners, often times rental places sell individual sleeves.
Mark, I thought that was odd, your footware; I've got a pair of Blundies and Rossi boots myself. ;-)
To the thead at hand; I'm having some hardwood flooring being put in right now. We acclimated the wood for two weeks. I originally wanted the floor put in, in February, put my hardwood flooring guy wanted me to heat the place which I wasn't going to do; new construction so the heat system wasn't ready to be fired up. These guys used staples for the most part which I thought was pretty good given that a staple is almost like two nails side-by-side, plus you have the bridge of the staple adding some extra leverage.
We will let the wood sit for two additional weeks before finishing.