Just curious, what is a typical pro laydown time for a square of simple 3-tab working alone? Could see where 2 folks could be much faster by more than 2X. Seems I spent half the time getting the shingles into place and up the slope.
Did a bad thing for me, actually bought new 3-tab for a shed, 7 bundles, 6/12 shed roof, 9 feet by 22 feet. What hurt most was the 10% sales tax here. 2 years ago architectural was $11 a bundle, now even simple 3 tab is $18! Rest of the shed only cost $8, so roofing was 95% of the cost.
Anyway, took me 4 hours to put on a little over 2 squares (getting old, mid 60’s), not including setup of another hour for the scaffold and ropes (used to do it without ropes, but not as sure footed anymore). 4 nails per shingle, coil nailer.
Replies
No penetrations, no valleys, no flashings? No ridge cap, with a gun, working alone...?
Hmmm.
~10 minutes per bundle or 2 square an hour; about right.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
~10 minutes per bundle or 2 square an hour; about right.
WOW. Could maybe do that when I was 30 YO, sure not now, maybe on a 4/12 roof where the shingle would stay where you put them.
Put on the last square yesterday, took me 50 minutes. Too danged scared of stepping on the hose and rolling off the roof.
We're talking open field shingling here, Art; nothing to get in yer way or slow ya down. Cut one half-tab off the start of every other row, slap em down on the notches, and go, go, go.
Anything that you have to go around, over, or under doubles or triples the time involved.
As to stepping on the hose and rolling off the roof, I hear ya. Too many snakes up there on a roof as it is what with haul ropes, extension cords, hoses, safety lines....
Two ways to deal with that:
1. Bring the hoses (etc) up over the ridge on the opposite side of the building, and pull the ends down to where you're working; don't haul them up behind you. As you work up the roof, shuck unneeded hose up and over.
2. Get an HT-65 wide-crown stapler. No hose....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Is the stapler typical? Reccomended?
Staples are not allowed here.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Emphatically, no.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Wide-crown (1" wide) HT-65 staplers are commonly used here and have been for some time. In the old days, when you bought a roof's worth of shingles, the yard would loan you an HT-65 free of charge.
Too, all shingle manufacturers selling product in this market allow wide-crown staples within their guarantee parameters, which is not an inconsequential consideration as if you don't attach the shingles per manufacturer's specifications, the guarantee is voided even if your building code permits them.
That said, some code jurisdictions do not allow them, and some people don't like them. It's also true that with the advent of cheap(er) compressors (in the last 10 years) and cheap, Chinese knock-off nailers (in the last 5), more people are now going pneumatic when they don't want to hand-nail.
I have done a lot of roofs using HT-65s, and in 15+ years in the business, I have never had even one blow-off complaint. This isn't cyclone or tornado terrain, but we can get very nasty line squalls in summer with wind peaks up to 150kph--enough to blow down hundreds of big trees and wreak generalised havoc along their path. That stapled-down shingles should hold under those conditions--and they do--seems to me to be the 'proof of the pudding.'
I run pneumatic tools as a matter of course so it wouldn't be a major step for me to get a few coil nailers. But I am certain that the staplers are as fast if not faster than a pneumatic nailer, and having one less piece of spaghetti to drag around or trip over up there on a roof is no small advantage to my way of thinking.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Very Interesting. I had never heard about that, will have to look into that if it is allowed in Toronto Ontario.
AFAIK, it should be okay, but check with your local AHJ. Or ask the guy at your lumber yard or roofing supplier; he'll know.
NBCC has nothing against it; BP and IKO both allow staples for their Quebec product.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
BTW, one thing you need to watch if it's hot and sunny when you're roofing is that you don't overdrive the staples. At 25º or over in direct sun, the shingles can get so soft you can literally drive the staple right through them if you swat too hard with the stapler. Keep each bundle of shingles out of the sun until you need it, especially the darker coloured ones.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I only do roofing once or twice a year if we are building a shed and we finish everything but that is really interesting to know.
Sounds like an HT-65 is ideal for your situation. A good quality roofing nailer--not a cheap knockoff that will double-fire and jam and drive ya nuts loading it-- will run you $500 or more new; the stapler will run ya about a buck sixty-five...and you don't need a compressor to run it.
Keep your eyes peeled at garage sales this summer; I scored two of my staplers for $5 each from a woman who was getting rid of her deceased husband's tools and had no idea at all what most of them were (and no clue what they were worth).
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
dinosaur---- the price on roofing coil nailers has come way down pretty sure I can by a bostich with a depth of drive adjustment for about $265 new----if I keep my eyes open.
stephen
And good used for $ 150 every day of the week .
Stephen,You talking about the RN46?Lots of those in here (ebay) for less than that. Reconditioned ones from CPO Bostitch are running $189 or $169 from ewharehousedirecthttp://tinyurl.com/n7jjrjHow's the bike riding and running going?Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Steve,
I am down about 30 lbs. since you saw me I am not running now--- knees are doing real good----- but my feet are killing me.
what i was absolutely sure was broken bones in both feet----turns out to be arthritis in both feet--WTF????anyhow--- legs are feeling good----still riding the bike. Last year i was doing a lot of easy trail riding-------- but this year i have mostly been riding in town---especially early morning on saturdays and sundays with no traffic-- i like to ride around town and scope out cool old houses-----some of the coolest/most interesting end up being in forgotten,out of the way,or perhaps"borderline" neighborhoods. I can now get on our towpath here about 4 blocks from my house and then ride 35-40 miles North to cleveland without significant time on a street--most recent section to open is quite close to my house and the towpath runs on a floating walkway across a lake. I can get on the towpath a few minutes south of my house and ride it about 4 minutes south with minor street time( for asome reason I have started riding that route on the 4th of july the last year or 2. stephen
Stephen,Good to hear. Sounds like you've got a nice area for riding.I, too, really enjoy finding hidden houses on my rides. Funny how I can pick up details then that I wouldn't seem to if I was walking past. I started my neighborhood photo thread after having so much fun following yours.Strange about your feet. Arthritis seems odd there. It wasn't plantar fasciitis from running too much too soon was it? Anything you can do about it?By the way, I was out with a friend last week who started to describe this spectacular place in West VA to rock climb. I knew it had to be the same spot you went with your son. Pretty sure you are not going to see me out on that bridge with half the planks missing anytime soon!Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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no, it's not plantar facaeitis I have had that--and it took about 6 years to get rid of THAT this is on the front of both feet---up top. foot guy says arthritis---apparently the big toe has a certain range of motion-----some many degrees of movement------ I now have much less. foot guy said he could eliminate the pain-----by fusing the joint!
on both feet! Naw--- I think I will just man up and accept the pain as my lot in life.as far as bike riding---------- besides about 80 miles of tow path(ohio/erie canal) we have a pretty good "rails to trails " set up as well---the city has put in bike lanes around town--we are pretty bicycle friendly.Stephen
"foot guy said he could eliminate the pain-----by fusing the joint!on both feet!
Naw--- I think I will just man up and accept the pain as my lot in life."
Ride to the library and browse through "Pain Free". See what he says about those itises.
I've got arthritis in my big toes too. The podiatrist said kneeling really does a number on them. He wanted to cut 3/8" out of each joint. I just couldn't do it.I have done the Pain Free exercises for them and they help. That guy knows his stuff!! If I had done them when I first started feeling the pain I'd have maybe cured the problem instead of just managing the pain.Also stretching works. If your calves and legs are tight things won't move right.Having someone look at your gait and eliminate a bad motion in your foot with orthotics might help.Manning up only works for awhile. Nothing worse than the bone spurs tearing up stuff with every step you take. Really slows you down and ruins your attitude.
the price on roofing coil nailers has come way down
Arrggghh. Go ahead, Stephen, rub it in! <G>
Roofing coil nailers up here are still more expensive than framing nailers, either coil or stick, and while the Bostitch has come down from $595 to about $495 over the last year, that's still a fair chunk of change for someone who only roofs occasionally.
BTW, hijack alert--I was wondering if you've got a detail to sugggest for the joint where two 'W' type valley flashings meet at the back end of a dormer ridge. I'm doing a couple of those next week and was planning to hammer the W down flat and put a counter-flashing on over it all, but I wondered if you might have a better idea.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 6/13/2009 11:44 am ET by Dinosaur
perhaps we could buy a coil nailer down here and mail it to you? W valley detail:
I would be interested to here from Grant and Walter on this--- I am sure they have a delitefull solution involving solder!!!!!
in my case--- it's usually aluminum Wvalley and heavy dimensional shingles----so we just run the caps right over the top of the valleys like normal-----it's never been a problem.
I am starting a project tommorrow with slate and copper----- and I was planning a variation of what you described combined with what I usually do I think the flashing piece may end up being something like what you would use if slating a closed valley----the step flashing bent point to point with another bend over the ridge and then the ridge metal coming over that.
stephen
Stephen and TH ,
I wouldn't be the right one to ask since I don't use W valleys on any regular basis .
If it were a metal that could be soldered it would be easy to flatten and solder as it crossed the peak though .
Walter
Walter, this is 26ga gauge galvanised steel. Can you solder galvanised? I wouldn't think so but I've never tried so I don't really know.
Nobody uses W valleys around here--hell, most of the 'roofers' in this area don't even do step flashing--but I like the way they look and I'm betting that these will outlast anything but copper (which, unfortunately, wasn't in the budget).
I had them bent for me by our local sheet metal fabricator and they did a beautiful job. Hemmed both edges, too, which helps keep water in the valley a bit more. But they are a bear to cut with snips, and my nibbler can't swallow the hem, so I just grunt and cuss. Where I have to fold the metal over a ridge, I've been bending them with a 3" hand seamer, or a pair of 2x4 scraps and brute force....
I did one dormer today and pretty much just bashed the W down flat at the overlap, the cut a counter flashing to ride over both valleys and gooked up the joint good with pitch. Got another to do tomorrow plus one real wonky detail where the carps who framed the roof screwed up and one ridge intersects the other 6" too high.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
TH ,
Yes galvanized solders more easily than copper , but with the use of a different flux -- muriatic acid !
I don't like a W in most cases ,'cause most of my work is with slate and I don't like being on those valleys while slating them in . In 90 % of most situations a V valley functions just as well or better than the other style I feel .
Your 26 must be heavier than what we get here . I'm flashing 2 chimneys now with what we get for 26 and even the hemmed areas cut pretty easily .
Sounds like the method for the top is basically the same as how I'd do it .
2 V valleys could be soldered at the tops and not capped across that piece , but it's more time consuming .
I'll look to see if I still have an HT 65 from early on - if I find it I'll ship it up to you .
Walter
TH ,
I took some pictures today of soldering up galvanized . Hadn't used much of it since last Fall , but I'm flashing several chimneys with it this week .
Heres a few of 2 scrap pieces locked together , fluxed with acid , sweated together , then filled in . Last one shows the sides dressed .
Gotta remember posting this way to work backwards instead of the old way !
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Your 26 must be heavier than what we get here .
Or maybe I'm just a wimp, LOL....
I dunno how heavy your 26ga is, but the 8 lengths of 8' x 2' valley I had bent for this roof were heavy enough that it took two of us to get the bundle up on the roof rack of the truck. It's good, heavy stuff, and that's the way I want it. The next time this roof leaks, I want to hear about it from St. Peter....
galvanized solders more easily than copper , but with the use of a different flux -- muriatic acid !
Aha! I shoulda known that; what the heck was I thinking seals the bottom to the sides of the big galvanised wash-boiler I use for boiling off my maple syrup? Duh....
Well, now you've given me a challenge; next rain day I'm gonna stink up the shop trying to solder a couple of pieces of galvanised scrap together. What solder do you use on that, and are you burning MAPP or propane? All I usually keep around here is the no-lead stuff we have to use for potable water pipes; for that stuff I use MAPP gas.
PS, cool pix in the other post.
I'll look to see if I still have an HT 65 from early on - if I find it I'll ship it up to you .
That's awful generous of you, bro, but I've already got three or four of them. Keep yours for yourself; even if you don't fasten shingles with staples, there's nothing faster than an HT65 for holding the felt in place when you know you're going right over it the same day.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino ,
I use 50 / 50 bar solder and irons heated with a plumbers propane furnace .
If you use just flame it will distort the metal while you're trying to solder it .
Heres my set up for small jobs .
And one of the chimney in need of CPR
I'll never use the HT again -- most of my jobs aren't asphalt and sometimes not slated for several weeks or longer .
I've got a Hitachi button / nail gun for securing felt , synthetics , typar etc .
I'll look for it when I have a chance .
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Edited 6/16/2009 7:57 pm ET by theslateman
If you use just flame it will distort the metal while you're trying to solder it .
Not to mention the likelihood of setting the roof on fire.
Looks like I'm gonna have to go shopping. I have no local source for this kind of specialised tools, but about 45 minutes south of here--about halfway to Montréal--there's a place that prides itself on having all sorts of stuff. My local sheet metal guy told me they carry siding brakes, too, so that could wind up being an expensive trip....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
A few more soldering up a bottom chimney pan today
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dinosaur,
my berger catalogue claims you can solder galvanized here--it's not really done.
on the older houses that had galvanized W valley---they also usually had galvanized ridge roll at the top.--- ridge roll ran across the top---and then usually a little boogering with karnack and an extra flashing piece.
I am going to fold and geocel it over the ridge----probably Grace the seam---and then all that will get covered with the ridge capping. I have a ridge vent mandated on this as well-----so I have to accomodate THAT as well. I saw a detail in a Ludowici tile promo pamphlet last night which shows the look I am shooting forWanna see the most beautiful roofing EVER?----- go to http://www.ludowici.comI am planning to see about a tour their later this summer since it is right here in OHIO.--- interesting Ludowici is considered green roofing and there is an active market in reclaimed/recycled Ludowici tiles-------Many roofs here in ohio had/have Ludowicci tilesstephen
Yeah, we solder galvy when we have to. I think it's harder to solder than copper since I'm used to copper and you have to control the heat more.
On the Ludowici tile issue: Yes they are beautiful roofs, but probably the hardest material to install. I've never worked with new material much, just reclaimed. We've done several removal/re-underlay/reflash/re-install jobs and additions to existing roofs.
There used to be several factories nationally that shipped locally. The tile size can vary wildly (nearly an inch) in width, so one has to be very careful about matching the material before startingto install when using recycled tile. Each verticle row has to be approx thesame width or the tile won't seat. Also, hip and valley pieces must be manufactured for the exact roof slope. They're hard tocome by as recycled goods.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant,
up here---when you start hunting around-----you find a LOT of old tile roofs---and nobody to work on them. Slate------well we can always cut a piece down to size if we need to----and plenty of it is available-----but tile is a different story the accessories,ridge pieces, trim pieces etc.---are tricky to locate----and a lot of it is out of production now for more modern linesluckily-- I found a place about an hour away with what is approx. a total city block of reclaimed tile and slate. the guy has stuff I have never seen before---stuff HE admidts HE as only seen twice----- BTW some of the profilesLOOK identical----- but they are actually 1/4" different in width---and won't fit properly. others LOOK like they wouldn't fit because they have a bullnose-----but actually do fit( although inappropriately) customer called me last night accepting a proposal on this type of work---it's a 1905 brick 4 square------- we will be putting half round gutters on it on an angled fascia-------and have a lot of hip tile to replace---- it's a french tile---which is readily available used----- but the hips maybe trickier to locate--- I have at least 2 sources to try locally before I start cruising the internet,LOLstephen
I've bought tile from and sold it to Renaissance Roofing in Rockford, IL, but I can't seem to find their website this morning. Watch Durable Slate. They'll sell you unusable stuff if you just let them ship it to you. Handle and measure it first.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Here it is:
http://www.claytileroof.com/http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Yes-- I was aware of the place in illinois--- I just bookmarked it. I am pretty sure there is a place in Colorado as well. what is good for me---- is that the local place I am thinking of has salvaged stuff from the streetcar suburbs east of cleveland, etc.----so the stock is exactly what I need---it's what was used extensively in THIS area Barrel tile etc-----don't need much of.stephen
Stephen,That is some really beautiful tile work. Silly me, I always assumed tile only came in that Mission barrel shape. Please do take some photos if you get to their tour. I'd be very interested in viewing them.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Try these for looks and colors. http://www.mca-tile.com/oriental/Oriental_pages.pdf
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Pretty cool. Thanks.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I went to the Bostish web site and purchased a Recond. for $165.00.
Now they are a bit more, Looks like brand new and had a warrenty!!!
http://www.cpobostitch.com/reconditioned_tools/nailers/roofing_nailers/
Staples haven't been allowed in Florida since hurricane Andrew. Forensic building inspectors found that the staples tore through the shingles in high winds. They admitted that in some cases it was because the staples hadn't been driven straight and had cut the shingle as they were driven but it was a moot point.
I built a 8x10 shed and was appalled by how long it took me to shingle it.
All setup and cuts. No long periods of just shingling.