Hi,
Is MDF replacing paintable pine for trimming windows. (jams, window casing)? I had a few windows replaced recently and didn’t give it a thought. I just assumed they’d use pine. At least with real wood you can trim the miters to make them fit if you need to make any adjustments with a handplane.
Take a close look at the miters in these pictures and tell me what you think. They made a god aweful mess with whatever they used t fill the GAPS. All the miters have gaps.Keep in mind that this is my livingroom window. Would you pay a window installer for this job? The gaps between the miters are hideous. A DIY would have done a better job!!!. Luckily for me I haven’t paid them for the job yet.
wanda
Replies
Even I'd be ashamed of that!
(When I was Biloxi a couple of years back we were doing some window trim in a house. We were using some sort of composite, but the joints looked much better than that -- the material is not an excuse.)
Wanda
The material isn't the problem. Hand plane? why. Cut them properly and they fit. A hand plane isn't a sign of competance nor good work. While a very usable tool in the right hands, it was never meant to be the be all for a quality carpentry job.
That install looks terrible. If the windows themselves were installed properly, then you lucked out.
I am always amazed at the quality of work you manage to have done on your place. Is there not someone in that area than can do the job right the first time? How in heaven do you find these people?
I can only keep wishing you the best of luck.
not pretty.....
Yep that is a nasty joint.
The joint seperation looks close to even across it's length like maybe the blade cutting the miter wasn't perpendicular to the cut.
My experience is that mdf is easier to make a tight joint with than wood.
I belive your pictured joint would have looked o.k. painted if they were properly caulked originally. In the photo it looks sorta like they glued them with yellow glue and didn't clean up the excess. For that to work a tighter joint is required.
new window installation
Hi guys,
If joints are cut properly you shouldn't have to "stuff" them with filler(caulk). I think the carpenters around here think caulk fixes everything. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't hide sloppy workmanship. Pretty bad when you can't caulk properly. Might help to have a clean wet rag. I think they cut the mdf and forgot to wipe off the dust before applying the caulk. They didn't even bother to smooth out the caulk after filling the gaps.
Those joints are too wide really to fill with caulk.Even when painted they wouldn't look that neat. Hopefully this mess will be straightened out soon.
I think those men should read Gary Katz's book on trim carpentry. :)
wanda
Yeah, caulk is not a piece of trim.
This has noting to do with it being MDF or pine or oak. The installer would have screwed up any material he touched from lack of basic skills.
window installation gone wrong
Hello again,
here are some pics I took this morning.
If you look carefully you can see a notch they cut out of the right hand casing (kitchen window) Why would they do that?
Plus the reveal isn't even it's tapered from bottom to top. I guess they just eyeballed it. They should have marked it with their combination square. Usually reveals are 1/8th inch. (for window trim)
Trim carpentry is all about making it "look right". floor are never even and corners are never square but the skilled trim carpenter can make it right!
If a window opening is out of square and you replace the old window with the new window can't you get the new window to loook level by using shims?
wanda
Thanks for the comic relief...
No, sorry about that subject line, but I am stressed myself today.
The upper left separation looks like ( photos are way too small to see details well) the extension jamb was never built right before install. It gets nailed and glued togehter as a box, then applied to the window in the openning. Sometimes you need shims and sometimes you don't. But you always use a level and square or tape measure to get both the window and the extension jamb to be plumb, square and working right.
The notch in the casing on the right - looks like they were fitting it around a cabinet or something there that is very near the window.
Or trying to....You'd have to check the cabinet to see if it is hung plumb to know why the reveals there are uneven. But when squeazing a window between cabs with minimal clearance, I make darn sure the cabs are right first, then be sure to center the window with equal space on both sides - another trick that might or might not be possible with this unit is to make the extension jamb a bit smaller box so that there is more clearance to each side. That depends on the type of window frame, which I can't see. Is it a vinyl window?
And once again, they did not come close to making the joinbts fit - pine or MDF.
Wanda
On rare occasion I will give an answer to a question of "who's good".
Whole house replacements windows, I do not do. If asked I will maybe advise on who has a good product. If pushed, I will tell them that I saw a good install at (address or name) and if they do go in to talk to the company, ask that these installers do the job. As you say, not all the installers from a given concern are the same....................they should be, or at least they shouldn't be that different. Afterall, reputation precedes them.
Wanda
They trumped the crappy install of the first attempt.
Did you say they were cutting the mitres on a table saw? Not impossible but wouldn't be my first or second choice.
Tell the boss-you'll pay for the windows, but you'll subtract the amount a decent carpenter would charge to either reset them and trim or to replace and redo the trim in a WORKMANLIKE MANNER.
Best of luck.
Good morning Calvin,
They used a miter saw to cut the miters.
The man will be coming in in 30 min. I will see what he has to say.
What would make a window jam move. If I push my hand against the miter the jam moves in and out a wee bit. I'm thinking the installation (foam) needs to be trimmed so the jam fits properly. They don't even have the jams flush on the main window. Hard to belive they could actually make it worse.
How can I be sure the windows are installed properly judging by their lack of "workmanship".
It's like whipping a dead horse. If they can't do it right the 2nd time they should not be given a 3rd opportunity to F.. up!
You're right I should just pay for the windows and get a qualified person to come in.. It's not easy to find skilled workmen around here.
wanda
Looks like the jambs/jamb extensions were probably sitting proud of the wall and when the pieces were nailed along the outer edges, it pulled the miters apart. There are a few ways to remedy that and it seems your workers didn't care enough or know enough to do so. Pine or MDF doesn't matter. I like mdf, paints great and no knots and glues real well. Can't believe a professional would leave something looking like that.
Where to Go From Here
Hi Wanda. Sorry you had to deal with such unprofessionalism with your window installation. These are the people that give the building business a bad name. I agree with you when you say...How can I believe they installed the windows correctly...when they can't even install trim properly.
So, where do you go from here. I would have the owner, or appropriate higher up, come out and check EVERYTHING and give you a list of what will be done. If you don't trust this individual 100%, I would call in a second opinion to review the installation. Preferably someone who doesn't install windows as this is a conflict of interest (they might tell you what you want to hear just to get the work). But make sure the second opinion is qualified.
I would also suggest holding back a retention when the job is finished...the owner should understand this after all you've been through. This retention will protect you in case the windows were installed wrong. If they don't operate properly, I wonder if they sealed them up so they won't leak. You may want to do a water test on them to make sure.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
If you want some info on hiring quality trades, check out this video at http://armchairbuilder.com/videos/chapter-4-subcontracting-bidding-out-work/finding-quality-subcontractors/
armchair
I like that you offer opinion to help out Wanda. I'm finding it a little odd that you suggest clicking on your site to view the ownerbuilder hiring video. Is this to get clicks for add sales? or is there something in that video that will help her with the window problem?
If you wish to qualify your experience, why not another way?
thanks.
Hiring Quality People
Calvin, I gave Wanda some ideas on how to deal with her current situation. The video was to help her when she goes to hire another contractor so she doesn't end up in the same situation. If we hire the right people to do our work, this kind of thing won't happen.
" Preferably someone who
" Preferably someone who doesn't install windows"
Hnuh?!?!?
she already hads someone who doesn't know how to install windows. If she gets someone else who does not do it, how is it likely to be someone who knbows a thing about how it is supposed to be done to have a clue what to look for??????
Wanda has had an ongoingsaga for about three years IIRC, and this site has beemn her objective standby for info, because of the lack of qualified craftsmen in her area, as hard as it is to believe that.
Wanda there are a number of acceptable ways to install an extesion jamb and casing to make it secure, but obviously, given the results, these guys did not know any of hem. Your job is not to teach them how to do it, but to write a chceck once the job gets done right. If they can't do the job, they sould not have taken it on. Just point out what is wrong and stand back for them to fix it, making it clear you are ready to pay when they get their act together.
For what it is worth, If you are going to prove to them that something is not level, be sure that YOUR level is rue before you do that. I've had HOs try that with me a couple times and had to show them how their level was not reading true. And you do not check level with a tape measure either, unless you are certain that what you are using for a reference point is also true.
Wanda
Head guy.
"wasn't great"....................
You kidding me?
It wasn't bad either.
It was terrible, extremely bogus, not the worst I've ever seen, but damn close and to think they got paid for it.........
and then the head man billed for it.
No level, par for the coarse.
As far as setting the window, whatever works to insure level and plumb=inside/outside, as much of the frame that allows a good reading of the whole unit. Never the sash..........that's a movable thing.
Where the heck do you live anyway?
window installation gone wrong
Hi,
Still waiting to hear back from the Boss (owner) no word yet.
I better put it in writing what needs to be done.
No doubt I'm going to get some backlash but that kitchen window is coming out. It needs to be adjusted/ level. This means removing the casing, top/bottom and side jams and the foam insulation. obviously this requires more work for them but that's not my problem. Maybe next time they'll be more careful and take the time to make sure the window is level before squeezing in the foam and nailing up the casing.
I'd like to get my livingroom back in order and blinds installed before the winter sets in!
wanda
window installation gone wrong
Good morning Calvin,
Got a ? for you concerning window jams
1. When you go to install the preassembled jam (picture frame) Do you secure it to the housing framing (trimmer) with nails? I'm assuming you do. that's the way I've seen it done.
Reason I'm asking ... I don't see any evidence of nails/brads driven into the jams on my kitchen window or livingroom window. Doesn't look like the casing is secured properly.. More fasteners are needed to hold the casing flush to the jam. If I wanted to I could easily without much effort remove the casing There is something fishy about the way they have the jams installed.
"where the heck do you live anyway?" Answer: I'm Canadian
wanda
Wanda
There's several ways I've done jamb extensions, usually dictated by the depth of extension, the material of the window, and even the material of the surrounding opening.
But, it must be secure.
To extend a vinyl window you usually cannot fasten to the frame itself, so more than likely-fasten to the opening.
With less than ideal conditons or with a complicated trim assembly, I'll fit the jamb extension and then preassemble on the bench, the trim on extension jamb. Now I've got a complete unit that is all right with itself. Slip that into the opening and fasten the whole shelonga with nails or trim screws through the casings.
Take a look here if you want to spend some time.
http://www.quittintime.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/10953/an/0/page/0#Post10953
Maybe he didn't bring his own level and square because they weren't.
I'll have to say I can sorta undersand the notching. It can be amazingly hard to find casing of a given width and style. When we redid our kitchen I looked all over town for 2" "modern" casing, to match the original, but all I could find is 2.5". (Could find "colonial" casing in several widths, of course.)
It's been my observation that 90% of building material dealers carry only what's currently "in style", as defined by the "House Beautiful" rags, and if you want anything different (say, Scandinavian modern when colonial is in style) you're SOL.
Used to be, before the BBs took over, there were usually one or two yards in town that had a fair amount of old, oddball stock, so you could find casing to match that ca 1925 house, or a 1965 house. But no more.
Kinda makes you wonder how a new style can ever get started, given that the materials aren't available. Though maybe it's like men's shirts, where apparently the buyers buy what the stylistas say is "it", regardless of what the public purchased last month. This would be the only logical explanation for the fact that men's shirts were only available in sickly yellow this summer.
Wanda
Does that put you in Nova Scotia or Newfoundland?
There is talent there.
We just have to put you in touch with it.
finding talented people
Hi Calvin,
I live in NL. yes, I need to be put in touch with talented people.
wanda
window installation gone wrong
Hi guys,
It has been over 8 working days now and the man from the window store finally got back to me.
sorry I took so long to give you a call but basically I have 2 options. I think either just forget about paying for the installation altogether and pay for the windows only and at that point then you would look after any discrepencies you have inside there.
or I can have another crew come by early next week and basically whatevers needed to be done inside they would do. You'll have to be there to tell them exactly what you want. If it's wood on all the windows then that would be what it is. That kind of thing. I can do that early next week as I said.
or Just forget the installation and just pay for the windows themselves. You can give me a call back. Thanks. Bye.
That was the message he left on my message machine.
This guy has $300 dollars of my money and I have $3000 dollars worth of windows.
Before I set up a time for his "crew" to come in what questions/concerns should I go over with him. First of all I'd like to know why option #2 isn't option #1. Why didn't he phone the very day he was in to inspect the windows? He just doesn't sound very professional to me. Why didn't he send this so called "crew" in the first time. He's after telling me the trouble he's had finding men to do the work. I have to wonder who the guys are on this "crew". I have no reason to believe they're going to be any better. God only knows.
I'd like to know how long they've been working for his company and I'd like to know first names/ last names. This will be the 3rd go around for them to get things right. Another morning I will have to make arrangements to be home while the work is being done. I should be getting a discount considering the inconvenience. Remember the windows were installed July 12th.
How would you guys handle the situation?
wanda
I'm not sure I'd pay him for the windows.