Can anyone recommend a window manufacturer for a very exposed ocean site? The architect specified wooden Marvins, the builder says Anderson vinyl clad Woodright series. The house is way over budget – I need to get material costs down, but don’t want to create a maintenance nightmare or lose the historic profile that the Marvins provide. Something tells me I’ll have to choose between maintenance and authenticity.
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Replies
Marvins far nicer but Andersens very good. Either will be serviceable, but the muntin details on Andersen are hard to look at.
LIke you said, you'll have to decide between chevy and caddy...
Is the frame finished yet? ROs need definition before framing, which scares me, If you are this far over budget and frame is not even done...
But if it is already framed and you are thinking od changing windows, the extra cost of changing the ROs will add to the cost and influence your decision.
Best price on Andfersens is in truckload pricing from full service dealers, about every seven weeks. marvin can often produce and deliver in three weeks
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Edited 1/2/2006 3:09 pm ET by Piffin
Thanks, Piffin. What do you mean when you say "Marvin muntins are hard to look at?" I thought the muntins on Marvins look the most authentic.We're at the beginning of the project - the GC's bid is just in, and we need to do some hard cutting. Windows, doors, stonework are all big ticket items and are on the chopping block.
my error, I meant Andersen are not that good looking. The Marvins are fine
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A "Very exposed ocean site"???
Thats trouble! I assume you are talking about the WUHD Marvin series...a great window...worth the money.
But...wood? I love them and have used them, and yes, I have even painted them.
But if I were you, I would think about the real cost...not just the actual per peice cost. How much will be spent on each window when you walk from the job..how about two years after that?? Will mere paint REALLY hold up? (Besure to start with at least preprimed units)
If I were you, I would think SERIOUSLY about Kolbe and Kolbes version. They match the Marvins for quality every step of the way, but offer a factory paint thats far more dependable than anything you can apply on site. And warranteed. And it saves time on site, shortening the overall job, and is a fixed expense, as opposed to one where you hope the painters charge what they say they will.
Might be more $ up front, but in the long run it's something to consider.
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Thanks for your advice. Do you know if the Kolbe factory painted wood window has the thick (2") exterior sill that seems to be so important to the designer? I can't seem to find any pictures on the web that show the differences among Marvin/Pella/Anderson/Kolbe.
Off the top of my head, I can't tell you about the actual dimension of the exterior sill, but in my discussions with them, I seem to remember they made a point about the proper proportions of the sill and the casings etc.
That said, they also pressed how flexible they are about changes and custom items. Now, i haven't priced them yet, but my supplier told me when discussing them, that they are "Marvin money, or slightly less".
The main thing, to me is the best of both worlds combination they offer...factory painted and warranteed WOOD profiled exteriors.
Cutting costs is tough...but I really hate cutting costs in the windows...put off a "feature" until later, like fancy media rooms. Get the bones right.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Thanks, Jake. I guess I have to find local distributors where I can see the options.You got to the central point of this stage of the project: don't cut structural things, let others slip into the "later, maybe" column. I'd like to hear your opinion about some of the other choices on the chopping block:substitute drywall for plaster
use traditional insulation instead of icynene
eliminate high-end interior doors
eliminate stone veneer (currently on 15% of exterior)
move down the quality scale on all cabinetry and built ins.
eliminate radiant heat
scale back on all allowances (lighting, hardware, fixtures)This part of the process is not fun, but overextending on the budget will be more difficult later. We've already eliminated media room, pool, cupola, some of the landscaping, and interior budgets. I hate to cut expensive energy efficiencies because of how exposed the site is. The architect is bumming. Maybe we just have to get through this stage, move on, and get back to watching a slightly different house go up.
fluffy,
You are making those changes and considering more at this point in the construction? Something is very wrong here. Those are the kind of discussions and decisions made in the design and bid stages. Sounds like you are in for a rude awakening and or someone sold you a bill of goods.
Just my opinion, of course.
I haven't discribed my situation very well. Bids came in at the end of November, we've chosen a GC, and are now planning what to cut so that the architect can do the construction drawings that will result in a house on budget. Ground is not yet broken.
Ok, I am sorry. I thought I read a post the other day on this thread which said/implied the framing was done.
OK!!!
The architect is bumming, how about you? It sounds like s/he designed something that is nowhere near your budget. I'm not a builder, just a homeowner, but here's a homeowner's opinion for you:
Switch to veneered drywall. Plaster is labor intensive, and I'm frankly amazed that you have a craftsman around that you can design an entire house with it. That has to be an amazing expense in the home.
Don't downgrade your insulation. Once it is behind the walls you aren't going to upgrade it, and you will want to in the drafty house you get with fiberglass. You will pay for that small savings many times over in heating bills.
Cut the fancy interior doors - they are easily replaced in a couple of years when you have more money.
If the stone is actually a veneer, like cultured stone, then this can wait for another time. Use another siding material and do the stone later. If it is real stone, then you need to have the support for it poured with the foundation.
Are you sure you need to eliminate the quality on the cabinets? Perhaps a change in wood selection would do it - if you are going with a very expensive species (e.g. teak) then you can cut costs merely be changing the species.
Take a look at the foundation in the initial drawings. Does it have lots of corners? You might be able to cut costs more effectively by modifying the floorplan slightly to eliminate lots of jigs and jags in the foundation. Not only is that type of thing expensive in the concrete work, but it trickles on up the house to the complicated roof that goes with it. Which is another place where big savings can be found in small changes. A complicated, cut-up roof is much more expensive to frame and cover. The architect should work with you on this - you shouldn't have to sacrifice all of your finish details when slight alterations to the plan can make the difference.
And one other place that you might consider cutting: square footage. You didn't say how big your home is, but if it is a 6 bedroom 5 bathroom giant, then cut a bathroom and you cut lots of costs.
Good luck - I hope you'll post pictures of the progress.
Thanks for your suggestions. It's not a giant mcmansion, but it isn't small, either. Your ideas about roof lines and complicated foundation are probably the key to the solution. It's a shingle-style house with a "big house, little house, back house, barn" quality to it: several rectangles of different heights that come together as a unit. We wanted it to look like it was always there; we did not want a tall, looming monstrosity.Yes, we're bumming, too. We had a firm budget in mind, deducted professional fees, and site work and came up with a number for the house. During the design phase we would say, "oh wouldn't it be nice if we could have..." and the architect would respond with, "It can't hurt to put it in." But it did and does hurt! We have plans for the perfect house that we can't build. We've never built a house before and didn't understand how disciplined you must be in the early phases - it's so much easier to add than to delete.So now enough wining - we'll start with simplifying the foundation and the roof should follow. We'll downsize a bit, lose the fancy doors, keep the high quality windows and buy the best insulation we can. This will take a lot of redrawing - I hope we don't incur more architectural fees as a result.ps Skim coating with plaster is common in Massachusetts - there seems to be a big population here of wonderful, Irish plasterers on stilts.
When you said plaster, I thought you meant real plaster. Skim coat is what I meant when I said veneered drywall (just me using the wrong term).
Good luck and don't forget to post pictures!
How many bathrooms? Could you leave one to be finished after you move in?
-- J.S.
Already canned one (in room over garage), a half bath is about to go. That leaves 3 1/2 baths. Any other ideas? I'm listening to everything.
Instead of eliminating the bathrooms, run all the rough plumbing and electrical to them, and leave them to be finished after you move in.
The way we did my parents' house in 1970 - 71 was that we got it to a dryed-in shell plus a working bath and kitchen, and the city let us move in at that point and stop paying rent. From there out, we were able to finish it out as time and money allowed. There's a temporary wooden walkway to the garage, and a couple temporary relay push button switches still in use, but other than that, it's finished. ;-)
Avoid doing temporary stuff to be replaced later, unless it really saves big bucks. For instance, we built the final kitchen cabinets before move-in, but today you could also start with garage sale/Ikea type stuff, and figure on doing it up in grand style a couple years out.
-- J.S.
If you rough in a bath do the tax accessors access you for the value of a finsihed bath anyway? Just thinking out loud.
Probably not if it's just stubbed and capped. Cap it inside the wall and stick up some panelling if you're really worried.
-- J.S.
I ask because I actually was thinking about doing it in a house I would like to build. I would not need two baths upstairs but I think for resale it would be a great idea. I would not want the expense of putting it in right away and sure would not want my assessed value increased by 10 or 20 grand.
How could a guy put a toilet flange in and cover over it? HMM? smell? I suppose if you had a basement with good access you could not run the line all the way to the septic until you were ready.
I still wonder if you file all your building permits with X number of toilets to be inspected and Y sinks, and told everyone that you were just going to rough in one of the toilets and sinks, etc., that the assessor would not look at that and dinge you.
I suppose one could try to get the plumbing inspected and then rough it in, hope teh insulation inspected did not crack wise, and then cover it over. Mind you I would not being trying to pull a fast one, but just trying to figure out how to not get asssessed for something I did not complete.
fwiw - marvin had a problem with rotted frames a few years ago - forget the details but might be worth seeing what they did to improve things recently (seeing as the original post was about windows - the "expansion" is pretty interesting)
I spent some time at Marvin and Kolbe distributors yesterday.Thanks lateapex911 for the lead. The Marvin Ultimate Double Hung has a thick (2"+) sill face and 2" projection. I want simulated lights: the Marvin muntins are detailed and beautifully cut into the rails. It comes primed, ready for paint, but painted wood on an exposed ocean site is worrisome.The Kolbe sterling series has a factory painted exterior finish that is warranteed for 30 years! It has the 2" historic sill I want, but the muntins are flat, and less detailed than the Marvins.I've left the scedules with both distributors, and expect prices within a week. I'm leaning hard towards Kolbe. I've asked for solid wood on the exterior (no finger joints), and very good glazing. Glazing seems to be a can o' worms - the choices are endless and hard to compare. The Kolbe distributor suggested high-impact glass at more than twice the cost of regular glazing. I'd love to hear from you all about glazing.
Why would you not get the exteriors clad and avoid the whole issue of painting?
The clad windows I've found don't have the authentic, New England beefy exterior sill or believable muntins. It's a shingle style house designed to look like it was always there - we don't think we can pull that off without those details.
My window supplier will bend cladding for me for custom applications.
Course I pay for it. But it's far cheaper than a new paint job in 5, 10, 30, whatever years..
Another point,
It may be just me, but over the years thru a bunch of different houses, I've had both muntins and without.
Give me without any day. I like clean windows to see out. Muntins make a simple job so much more difficult and thus lead to dirtier windows.
I've been in your shoes and decided to use muntins along the S. Cal shore. I also went for painted windows with the longest warranty possible. I thought it was the best approach to take. And I now realize that that warranty is about to expire. I pity the fool who's going to go up and paint them muntins recessed over concrete roof tiles and three stories up over a stone patio. Not even accessable by ladders or scaffolding. Well, it looked nice at the time.
What will really happen is someone will end up replacing the window rather than repainting it.
Good luck.
Ask Marvin to quote with aluminum clad sash and wood frame with 2" thick subsill. That will greatly reduce your maintenance and you will still have the look you are looking for.
Of course, I haven't "seen it all"...but I have TRIED to see every window at the NAHB show, and I would agree that the details in the Marvins are very good. Kolbe does have the tremendous warranty and the custom colors, but without jacking the price excessively, that was the best I saw.
I don't like the Marvin clad mutin profiles.
On nice thing about most of the windows we are discussing is that painting is actually very easy. Just remove the sash and set it on a table and paint away. Plus, doing the case is easy from the inside with the sashes out.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Quote:
substitute drywall for plasteruse traditional insulation instead of icyneneeliminate high-end interior doorseliminate stone veneer (currently on 15% of exterior)move down the quality scale on all cabinetry and built ins.eliminate radiant heatscale back on all allowances (lighting, hardware, fixtures)
My opinion, is to eliminate things like builtins for a year or two wherever possible.
THe drywall/vennered plaster is a buget call...is it worth X dollars?? Resale or to you? That depends on factors only you know.
Better isulation comes back and rewards you...even during construction!
yeah, look at less espensive, but still appropriate doors. For example, instead of going to a natural wood door, try allowing interesting designs, but in a paint grade, which can save major bucks when multiplied by the number of doors needed.
Postpone the stone veneer. hard to do without spending extra money on siding that gets ripped off later, but think about it. A creative guy can figure something out.
Do NOT eliminate radiant heat, LOL.
Any light fixture that bolts on is changeable, but keep in mind that you are buying twice. That said, careful net shopping can yeild real bargains.
Like: I spec'ed a So Ho Plumbing exposed polished nickel shower system for a master bath suite I am designing/building. Too bad So Ho (who supplied the fixtures in two other baths I have done in this house, and the client likes them), has gone out of business. Which I learned when I called to find why they weren't delivered yet, LOL. It was about a $1300 item. A trip to Waterworks and another local retailer with the client yielded "That's nice", then the $5000 price tag was read.
So, a search on the internet yielded a sub $1000 version, and after discussion we took the plunge and ordered. ($200 return charge is small change at this point, LOL...and I needed it NOW!). 3 DAYS later, (amazing turnaround) it comes in and is way better than it has any right to be. So, carfeful and open minded searching can yeild treasures.
have you picked everything out?? or are you working with "allowances". I hate that word. In my eyes, success in these types of endeavors equates to managing expectations...and "allowances" often do a bad job in that regard. If at all possible, try to plug in real live items wherever possible. You might find your allowances are way too high...or...too low.
Lastly, and I will get off the soapbox, LOL....your plan sounds cool. You're in Mass? On the water?? The sprawling- looks- like- it- was- added-onto- over- time house is JUST the kind of house that needs to be built.
But....consider eliminating a section....and building the project in stages. Maybe the back barn/garage could be postponed a few years? It would be a shame to dilute the project in order to hit the "numbers" .....the bedrooms and sq feet, etc.
Finally, examine your skill set...maybe some sweat equity can save some money. Be careful here.... it becomes a conflict of interest...You end up paying, but working under the builder. As a builder, it's hard to boss around the guy who signs your check! ;)Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT