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NewConstruction Wiring

laramegreene | Posted in General Discussion on September 3, 2006 08:15am

I’m about 6 months away from breaking ground on a new single family residence. I’m a little concerned about wiring the home so it is easily updated with new wiring/cables with new technologies that are soon to be provided. For example, verizon is starting to offer fiber-optic service around the USA for phone/internet/televison. I’m in verizon’s service area and want to make sure that the home has all of the wiring in place so the walls do not need to be opened up to install the new wiring. Since the current “norm” is cat5 & rg6 I’m trying to firgure out if there is a smart solution which would allow me to build the home and be able to install the new fiber-optic wiring when the service becomes available (if ever?) with out opening up the walls? I would plan on the fiber-optic lines to have outlets whereever there is a cat5 or rg6 outlet. Thanks

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Replies

  1. BETRICKEY | Sep 03, 2006 08:38am | #1

     

    Go here and post the same question, there are some very tech savy guys that will be able to help you through the whole process.

     

     

    http://www.cocoontech.com/

  2. BUIC | Sep 03, 2006 09:17am | #2

      Conduit

    1. plumbbill | Sep 03, 2006 10:01am | #3

      I get a kick out of it when just one word says so much."I'm here to chew bubble gum & kick azz, & I'm all out of bubble gum" Rowdy Roddy Piper

      1. BUIC | Sep 03, 2006 08:47pm | #12

          Thanks <g>

             Buic

    2. User avater
      maddog3 | Sep 03, 2006 12:15pm | #4

      yep.

      .

      .

      .Wer ist jetzt der Idiot

      ?

  3. VAVince | Sep 03, 2006 03:26pm | #5

    You can install a fiber run to each location and leave coiled in the box. The most expensive part of running fiber is the time and materials used to terminate the connectors. 

    I currently work with fiber in commercial applications. The fiber is brought to the location and terminated at a MUX. From the MUX to what ever device is still copper. I have not seen any of the fiber installations to homes, but feel they will be the same.



    Edited 9/3/2006 8:40 am ET by VAVince

  4. Danno | Sep 03, 2006 03:59pm | #6

    Like another guy said, conduit. Or, somewhere I just read about putting like a 3" PVC pipe to the attic to run wire or cable through later.

    In several remodeling jobs I've done, I find huge coils of phone wire in the stud bays for later use. Don't know how useful it would have been unless they marked where they were, or left a pirate map or something. Then on the same jobs, the power wires (Romex or whatever) are invariably tight with no extra wire, so if you want to move an outlet a couple inches, you have to rewire.

  5. WayneL5 | Sep 03, 2006 04:55pm | #7

    Install 3/4" PVC conduit (with the appropriate pull boxes) to the rooms you may want to upgrade later.

    Running open conduit to the attic is recommended by some, but it has to be stuffed with insulation at both ends to avoid heat loss from the house to the attic.

    Run the communication line from the street to your home in conduit so you won't have to dig up the yard to, for example, replace coax with fiber.

    As a side note, consider installing a telephone in the bathroom.  I've found that a very handy place.

    1. DanH | Sep 03, 2006 10:47pm | #19

      "Running open conduit to the attic is recommended by some, but it has to be stuffed with insulation at both ends to avoid heat loss from the house to the attic."Unless it's a 4" diameter conduit, the heat loss will be inconsequental. And all you need to do to prevent that is to tape over one end.
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

      1. WayneL5 | Sep 04, 2006 02:39am | #25

        I disagree.  To my pocketbook, a 3 inch diameter hole in a house to an unconditioned space open to the outdoors is not a small matter.

        1. DanH | Sep 04, 2006 04:37am | #26

          Unless the house is exceptional in this regard, you've got much larger holes, effectively. And it wouldn't be a 3-inch hole -- a couple of 3/4 or 1-inch conduits. Plus the length of the conduit greatly reduces the effective diameter of the hole.But they should be plugged anyway, as you say. Taping over one end is sufficient, however -- no need to stuff them with insulation.
          If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

  6. mikeingp | Sep 03, 2006 05:06pm | #8

    I think you may be not understanding the Verizon offering. They bring fiber to your house (FTTP - Fiber to the Premises), but you cannot run fiber around your house. The fiber terminates in a network interface (just like the telephone NIT, but much bigger) outside your house or in the garage or basement. From there, the TV wiring is standard coax, and the computer wiring is standard ethernet (cat5).

    Personally, I think trying to plan ahead on this stuff is almost impossible. For one thing, for computers, a lot of people prefer wireless to wired anyway. If you have a basement and an attic, and a way to get cables between them (the 3" conduit mentioned in other posts), I think you're better off just fishing new cables when technology or your family changes. But that's just me, and maybe I'm not a great planner.

    1. Danno | Sep 03, 2006 08:34pm | #11

      I think you're better off just fishing new cables when technology or your family changes. But that's just me, and maybe I'm not a great planner.

      Or just build a new house--kind of like when the ashtray gets full in a car--time to buy a new car!

  7. frenchy | Sep 03, 2006 07:04pm | #9

    laramegreene.

          Wireless technology may make things hidden in walls a waste..

         Conduit may or may not provide a solution depending.. If the outlet is in the spot where the wire etc. will be needed it will prove handy, but things change, your office may turn into a den or sewing room depending on she-who-must-be-obeyed's whims.. To have wire in the north wall when you need it in the east wall or whatever isn't a whole lotta help..

          Ask yourself,  how good are you at forcasting the future..

      If you are real good skip hiding wires and use your powers to get rich, you won't mind hirng somebody to move the wires and you can have the outlets exactly where they will be needed..

          (or you can build a new house with all your wealth!)

    1. jimxxx | Sep 04, 2006 06:22pm | #29

      I really don't agree with your wireless concept.

      I have been working with both LAN & WLAN computer networks in my home. The CAT-5 LAN is much faster than WLAN. This also applies to Audio distribution where the fidelity for wired CAT-5 compaired to wireless is like day & night.

      The best plan is empty 3/4 conduit with sweep elbows (or plastic tube that will not kink going around corners) from distribution boxes to everywhere you can remotely conceive of future need. Put in multiple parallel runs to rooms like offices & home theater where different types of signals may be needed. You can also use the flexable corrigated prewire tube; but I have seen some trouble pulling multiple runs thru those in retro situations.

      Besure to label the destination of each empty tube at home run panel and no multiple end points without easily accessable junction boxes.

      Terminate the runs in a recip box not behind the wall where they cannot be found in the future by another owner.If you have a problem, don't just talk do something to set it right.

        Jim Andersen

      1. frenchy | Sep 04, 2006 08:09pm | #30

        Jimcco,

          You may be correct I'm barely computer literate,  someplace between kindergarten and 1 grade. :)  

          So you wire for whatever you need for today..

             However to anticipate the future is fraught with risks..  if the  conduit exits in the wrong wall have you really achieved much? 

          If she-who-must-be-obeyed decides to take your office for her pottery room or as a nursery all your plans may come to naught.  The cost of running conduit to every wall in every room would far exceed any potential savings and you'd be making payments on something of dubius value for the life of the mortage.

        1. jimxxx | Sep 04, 2006 08:21pm | #31

          The empty conduits are kind of like placing recip's. It's pretty easy to guess which walls people might set equipment on and it sure easier to make those guesses and run tubes than to fish stuff later.

          You are allowing for: internet/dsl, Computer networks, phones, TV service, home theater/audio. & who knows what else in 5-10 yrs. And most of that stuff should not be in the same tube. Also be sure not to run signal cables near/parallel to power & definatly not thru same drill holes.If you have a problem, don't just talk do something to set it right.

            Jim Andersen

          1. frenchy | Sep 04, 2006 08:41pm | #32

            jimcco.

                I just bought a load of sheetrock.. it costs 6.55 a sheet.  What you are really saving when you run a bunch of conduit for future use is that 6.55 and a little labor and paint..

              Walls get painted all of the time. sheetrock is easy to repair.

               She-who-must-be-obeyed  Changes her mind often,,   Todays office is her potting room tomorrow..

                 I love to anticipate, to prepare for the future, If I knew that at somepoint I'd need something for certain you bet I'd deal with it, yet to put conduit into a wall on the chance that something might happen in the future, maybe... isn't a cost efficent use of funds..

                I can't tell you how many times in my life I've been told something will happen and yet we didn't have a major system failure on New  Years as was predicted for Y2K  I don't fly to work in my hover car or use a jet pack.

                 Energy costs have increased dramatically since my youth (about a bizzlion years ago ;) )  so if I have excess money I'd make the house more energy efficent.. Or I'd buy in a better neighborhood or build a nicer quality home..

                 All of that is to say that life is full of compromises.. if you feel that the best use of funds to be mortaged is to put conduit in, then fine, that is your trade off..

                

          2. jimxxx | Sep 04, 2006 09:05pm | #33

            I hear yah! You got to pick your agrivations dependant on the potential hassle dealing with the consiquences.

             If you have a problem, don't just talk do something to set it right.

              Jim Andersen

        2. DanH | Sep 04, 2006 09:11pm | #34

          If you have, eg, an unfinished attic, run conduit to the attic. From there it's a simple matter to go down the inside of a wall if you need an outlet in the future (so long as it's not an outside wall).Similarly for a crawl or unfinished basement, though outside walls aren't as much of a problem.
          If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

      2. CJD | Sep 05, 2006 05:27pm | #39

        I am also a fan of spare conduit and boxes. A nice trick is to install conduit with boxes and place a permanent magnet in the box held in the center front with rigid foam. Drywall over the boxes so you don't have ugly blank plates. Wave a small piece of sheet metal over the area the empty boxes are to locate and cut it out when needed. Pictures before drywall is also a good plan.

        1. DanH | Sep 05, 2006 05:38pm | #40

          Especially with a slab and open ceilings you want the spare conduit. One can visualize how cable might be, eg, hidden behind baseboard to get from point A to point B in a room, once you've got it into the room. So you can pick a relatively few points and run conduits there and then plan on "faking" it out the rest of the distance to where the connection's needed.In a kitchen have conduit run to under the cabinets, then cables can be strung through the cabinets to where needed.Especially have a couple of extra conduits run between service entry area and utility area (if they're separated at all). And have an extra conduit for power run to the garage (or just a piece of 10/3 installed). Likewise something into the yard, for "outhouse" or utility outlets/outdoor lighting.

          If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Sep 05, 2006 05:59pm | #41

            There is a baseboard/channel like product that is designed just so that you can pop it off and run new wiring.Can't remember the name.I maybe wrong, but I think that it designed to go below the DW and then ordinary trim can be installed over it.

  8. BryanSayer | Sep 03, 2006 08:12pm | #10

    If you do conduit be sure to take lots of photos, ideally with a tape measure in the picture, so that you know where they are.

    You can get combo cable with RG6, Cat 5 (or 6) and fiber.

    Personally, I use Cat 6.

    My crystal ball is a bit cloudy, but personally I doubt fiber IN the house will ever be a major factor. Cat 6 will run gigabyte speeds at 500 Mhz (with the correct terminations). I don't forsee anything needing to be faster than that.

    1. User avater
      xxPaulCPxx | Sep 03, 2006 08:48pm | #13

      I agree with using Cat6.  It's shielded too to lessen interference.

      You use wireless for remote control and internet access, you use wired to transfer files and large bandwidth streams - like movies.  I think people will be very dissapointed if they count on wireless - even the new N standard coming - to stream their movies instead of a wired connection.

      A house today needs a wireless router AND Cat 6 to every major room.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

      Also a CRX fanatic!

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Sep 03, 2006 08:54pm | #14

        You don't want shield cat 6, if it is even available.Cat 6 has TWISTED PAIRS which in a balanced circuit so that it rejects most common mode noise.Shield can introduce other problems.

        1. User avater
          SamT | Sep 03, 2006 09:42pm | #16

          Shield can introduce other problems.

          Bill, can you expand on that?

          I was taught that shielding data lines was always good.SamT

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Sep 03, 2006 10:47pm | #18

            First of all the cabling and connectors systems for Cat x wire is not setup to handle shielded wire.I *think* that I have seen some listings for metal RJ-45 connectors that have a ground connection. But I am not sure. And if there are they are would not be easy to find.So you are likely to end up with on breaks in the shield.Then you get into the problem of what where it get grounded. If it is grounded at both ends then you can have ground currents flowing through the shield.By definition eithernet uses UTP (unshield twisted pair).With the twisted pair the reciever is only looking at the differential signal between the two wires. Not the aboslute value (within limits) of the signal. Thus they don't have to be referenced to the same "ground".Unless single ended audio that looked at the absolute values and if there was any difference between the two grounds you get hum.

          2. User avater
            SamT | Sep 04, 2006 12:44am | #24

            Given those constraints, I agree with you. One can't just randomly throw foil around wires and expect them to work right.

            Once had some engineers wrap the ribbon cables on some of My* computors with aluminum tape.

            Can you say "$7000 Smoke test?"

            Each.

            Times three.

            * They were in my maintenance domaign.SamT

          3. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Sep 04, 2006 07:31am | #28

            An example of Cat 6 sheilded:

            View Image

            Yes, the sheilding is end to end.

            http://www.vpi.us/cat6-shielded.html

            http://www.ampnetconnect.com/EastEurope/cat6shld.asp

            All the benefits of Cat 6, with fewer worries about some sparky later on laying a 120v line parallel to it.

            As to worries about getting the sheilding right doing it by hand... why bother?  Easier just to buy lengths close to what you need but a little over.  There are even F/F connectors if you need extra length - and those connectors are also fully sheilded.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

          4. laramegreene | Sep 05, 2006 02:08am | #37

            Becuase you are going through the process. May I ask how you are wiring your house (RG6 two cables per outlet? how many phone lines per outlet? how many outlets with CAT5e or 6?) and where all is going? Also what TV carrier do you use? I think that is my main concern, the TV. What the future holds. I know that the carriers like to claim "all digital" but as far as I can tell every box converts to analog save for the HDTV channels. Thanks

          5. BryanSayer | Sep 05, 2006 06:49pm | #42

            I'm only seeing shielding for the terminations, which is where it is needed, as the untwisting to make connections canceled some of the shielding effect.But like I said, there is not a standard definition of "shielding" that covers everything.I doubt buying pre-made patch cables is an effect way to run cables. You risk breaking the connectors when you pull them, plus you have to figure out the length of every run ahead of time. Most people don't want to do that for a whole house. You want bulk cable that you can combine and pull for each termination, since the almost always start from the same point.

          6. DanH | Sep 05, 2006 06:54pm | #43

            Plus the connectors on pre-made cables make them hard to pull.Terminating a Cat5 is tedious, but I've never had a bad connection in the several dozen I've done.Note that generally you should terminate to a keystone socket or some such, not a plug. This is just a punch-down device, and it's mainly a matter of matching up the colors.
            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          7. BryanSayer | Sep 05, 2006 07:34pm | #44

            On mine, the far end terminates to a keystone device, but the source all have connectors, since that is what plugs into my LAN switch, or into the phone distribution circuit. I've heard that you can terminate to a punch down block, but that seems like double work to me.

          8. DanH | Sep 05, 2006 09:51pm | #46

            I have mine terminated to a punch-down patch board (effectively multiple keystone outlets, only all together in one piece). Then short patch cords to the switch.

            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          9. Sawblade | Sep 05, 2006 10:17pm | #47

            I just finished wiring our new house and I called a lifelong friend of mine (who is the manager for our rural telephone co-op) to come out and take a look at the house and tell me if there was any wiring for cable, telephone, internet, etc. that I needed to do to prepare for any future technology that is coming "down the pipe".  BTW, this co-op provides all of the above services. 

            What he told me was pretty amazing. 

            I had all my co-ax and Cat5 run to a central panel.  He said to be sure and put a 110 receptacle in the panel.  It won't be long and we will be able to get a module that accepts the incoming service line and the other end of the module plugs into the receptacle.  THEN, get this.....you get an adapter with 3 prong plug on one end and ethernet cable on the other and you can get internet service from any RECEPTACLE in your house.  No joke!!  And cable service will be the same way.  He says he's got it at his house right now for testing and it works great.

            So, basically, if you find that you didn't run wires to every possible location, in the future it won't matter.  As long as you have a receptacle close by!

          10. DanH | Sep 05, 2006 10:24pm | #49

            Actually, that sort of thing has been around for years. The technology is improving, but it will never equal in performance and noise immunity what you can do with dedicated cables. Plus it adds that much more interference to the atmosphere, making OTA TV, et al, less and less viable.
            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          11. DanH | Sep 03, 2006 10:50pm | #21

            Changes the impedance.
            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

        2. User avater
          xxPaulCPxx | Sep 03, 2006 11:50pm | #22

          CAT5 also has twisted pairs. 

          Actually, I didn't realize CAT6 came in an unsheilded variety - I've only bought the sheilded kind.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

          Also a CRX fanatic!

          1. BryanSayer | Sep 04, 2006 06:58am | #27

            I suspect what you are calling a "shield" is the cross looking thing used to seperate the pairs. Cat 7 does use some form of shielding, but I'm sure there are tons of definitions of "shielding". BTW, the basic difference between Cat 5e and Cat 6 is that 6 is twisted tighter, plus that seperator thing.

  9. BUIC | Sep 03, 2006 09:07pm | #15

      I've been using conduit for years to provide for future access.

      To keep it simple I usually run the conduit to a box that"s mounted to be behind the sheetrock. Then rock right over them. That way you don't see unsightly blank covers everywhere.

       The other thing I do to keep it simple is put it next to an outlet. Outlet to the right of the stud, empty box on the left.

       Years later it's still a no-brainer to find them, even if you can't find the pictures...Buic  

     

    1. DanH | Sep 03, 2006 10:50pm | #20

      > The other thing I do to keep it simple is put it next to an outlet. Outlet to the right of the stud, empty box on the left.Leave a chunk of iron (eg piece of joist hanger) in the box, so that a metal detector can find it easier.

      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

  10. DanH | Sep 03, 2006 10:44pm | #17

    Yep, conduit. "Smurf" style tubing (there's now an orange specifically for low-voltage use, I believe) is nearly as easy to put in as regular romex, and rigid plastic isn't that much harder.

    At the very least, leave some unused conduits running between major areas of the house -- attic, basement, garage, other utility areas. Then you can use conventional "old work" techniques to get the last 20 feet.

    If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
    1. jrnbj | Sep 07, 2006 06:03am | #50

      I just yanked out a bunch of 15 year old blue smurf...lots of the fittings had cracked & come loose, & in a few places where we tried to pull new cable through it the stuff flexed so much it was just about impossible to coax the pulls through....I'd stick with good ole'glued fittings & pvc conduit.....

  11. VAVince | Sep 03, 2006 11:55pm | #23

    I think my first response was taken wrong. When I said leave the fiber coiled in a box, I was taking about the same low voltage box that you run cat 5 ,6 ,coax  or whatever. I agree with the post about Verizon installing a FTTH or whatever the new lango. I think I made that clear about commercial MUX.

    I will tell you the day (may) come that (point to point )fiber will be the boss. I keep hearing rumors and they get louder!

    All it will take is a need for higher band width and the choke down with the decoding from fiber to copper. All decoding will happen internally within the device (TV Monitor,internet,microwave,heating system,alarm system,video cameras,your kids home work,your taxes,electric consumption,the movie you like,pizza order, etc.. etc.. 

    I can not predict the future, but the more band width, the more band width, the more band width.

     

  12. renosteinke | Sep 05, 2006 12:32am | #35

    There are two basic things that ought to be done whenever a house is built, to facilitate changes later on.

    The first is to have, at every panel, a stub of conduit run into the attic and crawl space. This will make adding circuits so much easier. The conduit ought to be large- say, 1 1/2". It is important that the pipes end at a place that an electrician can ge to!

    For data and such, there are just so many possibilities. I suggest that every wall have, within it, two stud bays that contain pieces of "smurf" tube, that end in the attic or crawl space. The tech has tools that will help him find these easily enough, and provide an easy way to get the wires down through the insulation.

    1. laramegreene | Sep 05, 2006 12:46am | #36

      Thanks to all for the ideas/comments. I guess one really important fact I left out was that the home I'm building is slab on grade and has exposed roof framing. So I will not have a crawl space nor attic as far as I know. I thought it would be smarter to get a bunch of ideas thrown at me here before getting my architect & builder involved. It sounds like the best plan at this point is to run the video (RG6) through conduit and just run CAT 5e to all phone jacks. I am pretty sure that wired phones are a thing of the past, currently I only have one for a fax machine, mobile phones for the rest of the family.

      1. DanH | Sep 05, 2006 05:02am | #38

        With slab on grade you should put some extra conduits in the slab -- at least a "best shot" at what you might want.
        If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

    2. User avater
      CapnMac | Sep 05, 2006 09:15pm | #45

      at every panel, a stub of conduit run into the attic and crawl space. This will make adding circuits so much easier. The conduit ought to be large- say, 1 1/2". It is important that the pipes end at a place that an electrician can ge to!

      Amen, brudda!

      I'd prefer that it be at least EMT if not "full" conduit, too (less worries about the wire puller slicing the plastic elbow)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

  13. Brian | Sep 05, 2006 10:19pm | #48

    Maybe this has been covered, but Conduit, not wire.  I put a LOT of wire in my last house, never used most of it and still had to pull some cat5 before it was done.

    Leaving basement ceiling bays open for a few years helps a lot too.

     

    Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
  14. PeterBrown123 | Apr 15, 2022 04:40am | #51

    Thanks for sharing!
    https://www.baudcom.com.cn/

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