Setting up a job today for some slate work and saw this set up across the street .
Looks like it’s stable and even has railings .
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about continuing education, minisplit heat pumps, compact home shops, and building science.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Looks very, um, "bouncy".
Ladders look to be on wrong side..... how do you get on the flat walkways?
OSHA would take pictures for the yearbook.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil ,
It looks like a homeowner operation so OSHA would have no jurisdiction .
I thought it was a clever set up to rebuild the eaves .
If it were me doing it , I'd have used pipe stagings , but these folks obviously aren't in the business .
The ladders are not the way up, they are part of the staging support. Unique.
Yes thats right BigBill .
Unique is right .
Some of the thoughts I have are: about the cost of the materials to make the scaffolding, the person who built them gave them some thought, the assumption of liability, and the cost of renting scaffolding that could be moved.
I think all the framing materials could be re used to build something once the job is completed .
come out the windows..
Hi theslateman,
Setting up a job today for some slate work and saw this set up across the street .
Been there done that.....father inlaw had to leave though....couldn't stand to see his daughter up there with me......
Pedro the Mule - Some People are just a Fraidy Cat
I like except for the use of the ladders
How about those old iron ladder jacks or finger crushers I call them.
If you are missing them, I'll send you a pair I've still got laying around. Never been used. Still have the original paint and tie wire on them.
Gave the first set I owned to a rookie plumber about 8 years ago. Found the second pair a year ago as I was unpacking some stuff from the old shop.
dave ,
I gave away 3 or 4 sets a number of years ago . They don't work well with alum. " pics " they can't accept the depth easily .
Finger Crushers? Included with my disdain for the ladders. Those old woodern ladders are bouncier than a trampoline. Glad my brother 'beat' me to get Dad's ladders and jacks.
One easy improvement on those pics in the OP would be to run the verticals all the way to the ground. A lot of comfort & improved strength would be gained for not much more.
I'll report next week how solid this arrangement really is .
I think you've got the idea, there, with running the verticals (supporting the railing) to the ground. That would make all the difference in the world, to me. I think the ladder setup is sketchy, and I wonder why he moved away from lumber for that setup. Considering the outlay, I'd just buy more lumber and save the ladders for access to the scaffold.
That's what jumped out as the weak point in my first look. Ladders are not made to take that kind of load, which is basically a continuous load at the weakest point.How can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
indeed, there's no way to improve the ladders but there are ways to improve the scaffolding: which way depends on your opinion of the whole thing, and quite varied opinions at that. ;^)
walter.... i caught your drift right away... and i wasn't going to say anything... but the drift of the conversation was an annointing of the staging
it is inventive... just not well engineered
still looking forward to your close-up reportMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike ,
You'll get my honest report if the owner will allow an old curmudgeon slater to try it out .
We'll see how good my selling techniques are !!
Walter
Walter,
That is some setup! Would not get me up there.
Chuck S
I think I'll ask the owner to let me up there when I'm across the street working .
I think it looks fine and sturdy too .
Walter
Walter - would you climb one of those ladders with 50% of the lumber above them strapped to your back - maybe 250# plus your weight?I wouldn't ;o) - not on a dare.
So put two guys directly above one of them and add say 250# of dead load - maybe 600# total ... not good.
Jeff
Jeff ,
I think if you look at that whole front -- porch and end piece helping to support the ladder area too -- that it will be fine for 2 men up there with boards and paint .
It's not made to do roofing work so there won't be much besides the humanoids up there at any one time .
I'll report back next week on how I liked it !!
Walter
The only thing that really bothers me is the wooden ladders and the use thereof. I've taken 2 bad falls from wooden ladders breaking. I weigh about 240, so I'm about maxing them out before I put my shoes on.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Now I see y you like the shop work <G>
I had some trash wooden ladders when I started out -- all I could afford back when . Didn't take long to figure that if I wanted to continue long term I'd best start getting some better rigging !
That staging looks very well planned, well built, and sturdy. I'd put my grandma up there next to my wife, kids, and collection of Ming vases without flinching one bit (If that held, I'd even go up there myself). That staging is probably SAFER than scaffolding!Sorry to say but it seems that many posters here are not only wimps who must not be used to using scaffolds, stagings, and ladders but also don't have a very good understanding of OSHA requirements. I have worked on some very sketchy platforms and stagings in the past and have thus learned exactly how strong materials can be when tacked together. Although building staging isn't "an art" it does take some experience to know the difference between "unsafe" and "overbuilt". Say what you will but both extremes are just as stupid. I still get a chuckle when I see some greenhorn drop 52 pneumatic nails into a chunk of 2x4 used to support him for 1/2 day's work...or how he thinks I'm carrying bowling balls because I only tacked 3 nails in mine. OSHA could use that setup as a guide for their "how to properly and securely build wood staging" manual. Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP! Scaffolds and Stagings has it's own section pertaining to site built wood systems. 2x4 pine is totally acceptable and scabbing wood together is fine and actually only requires a 4' splice area, this guy has about 8-10' of splice. How much weight is actually being supported by each ladder....the guy is even using a new enough wood ladder that it still has tags on the side. Go nitpick on the guy down the road using the civil war era ladder like is seen most often.I seem to recall seeing such a staging set up in an etching. I gotta believe the builder of this staging has had some kind of historical training or otherwise gained some old school passed down knowledge that has been forgotten by the rest of us.Sorry all but it just peeves me when acrophobics get on my back for being "unsafe" or even when they applaud me for being so "ballsy" when all I am doing is performing my work using well established safety methods or otherwise common sense engineering. DC
bs.... where's the safety factor in this ?
View Image
the strength of materials is sorely lacking
two 250 lb guys standing on one point is going to overload it
and it only take one 2x4 to have a weakness to bring the whole house of cards down
the loads are imposed on sloped twoxfours.. not even vertical
this is a lot of idle chatter about how "safe" this is ...
well it ain't
how many of you have ever seen a double 2x4 pump jack system fail ?
all it takes is one bad spot on one of the 2x4's .. and they're VERTICAL
this is a bad design with zero safety factor
they may get away with it.... but no way would i pay guys to work on it
i've worked on staging since 1962... some well built.. some not so much... there is a lot of strength in vertical members .. but these ain't
this is a "hail mary" setup
and no... i ain't no wimp
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/13/2009 11:01 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike ,
I think a homeowner intends to do the work himself on this .
You've got to hire lighter weight men !!
Walter
If I get to try it next week I'll let everyone know what I think after using it .
walter... the guy put a lot of time and effort in planning a POS
well executed but contrary to good practise
View Image
the verticals are all relying on a shear connection
the sloped main supports rely on the strength of 2x4 assuming no knots, splits or checks
if the main supports were 2x8 i might be ok with it
but no nailed shear connections
ask any insurance accident scene inspector what they think of this
suppose someone you send up on that is injured, whose homeowner insurance is going to cover it ?
nope.. this set up relys on LUCKMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Each to their own I guess .
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore /but not superman/ nor stupid neitherI'm with you Mikey.It just isn't worth saving a few bucks by putting my fat arse out on something iffy...That guy MAY finish that work without incident...but I wouldn't bet my spinal column on it!!!I have heard too many stories about chit like that going down in a heap..
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Mike - good point on the shear connections.
They used to stamp true scaffold planks 'SCAFFOLD GRADE' - do they still do that?
I'm not a wimp either ... I just don't bounce the way I used to ;o)
Jeff
Edited 6/13/2009 2:10 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Your post reminded me of a case I had about 20 years ago. A tradesman called up the local lumber company and asked them to deliver a "staging plank." They brought an ungraded rough 2x12. The guy was standing on it when it broke. He only fell about 6-8 feet, but was pretty badly hurt.
Thereafter, if you called the lumber yard for staging planks, the response was: "we don't sell wooden staging planks."
Yep - was that here in Maine?Where Walter and I do a lot of business, if we call and ask for a staging plank, the answer is, "We don't sell staging planks Paul, but we have some nice rough cut select fir 2x12 or 2x14 set aside if you want to try it"But if Joe blow walks in off the street, the answer is simply, "We don't have any"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep - was that here in Maine?
No, somewhere in Mass. I remember we had half of the busted plank in our file room for years. It broke at a big knot that apparently wasn't very obvious because the lumber was rough and dirty.
It broke at a big knot that apparently wasn't very obvious because the lumber was rough and dirty.
one reason its illegal (osha) to paint planksView Image"...everone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Maybe they are screwed together.
I'll bet THAT would make you happier!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Paul ,
The members are all nailed together using 16 d duplex nails or 8 d duplex where 3/4 " bracing is being nailed to 2 x stock .
I've never seen an 8d duplex...still have a box of 16s I'll never use...screws and impact drivers, ummmm.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Where you don't need a long nail for staging work the 8's work fine .
Again , I didn't build that set up -- just the messenger .
I use GRK's ,double heads , whatever it takes for my set ups .
I always use duplex and when i break down a big crowbar takes them out easy, Its better then stripped screwheads for me plus i can see where everything is nailed, Sometimes up high i use screws setting up rather then banging a hammer on unset scaffold, Mainly on the guardrails.
I know what you mean on seeing everything that has to come out. I unscrew, won't come off, oh wait there's one, yank, oh, there's another, and so on and so forth<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
"and no... i ain't no wimp"I am!But Walter says he knows where to get new body parts on a regular basis...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Check it out in Belfast when you're across the Bay .
Right on Miller St . hill ,just up from Charles .
Don't tell me an old roofer like you would be hesitant to climb up there ??!!
DUH...
How do you think he managed to become an "old" roofer? Now that I had my fun with a bad joke I am thinking I would climb that piece of art work.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I'd say the vote is about tied up between those who would use as built , and those who wouldn't care to use it at all .
Alright I read the whole thread and I can't believe all of you have missed the defiency in this scaffolding system.
I do not see a single safety block under the arms.
The arms themselves need to be attached to the wall.
The load is concentrated on the legs at an angle which is the opposite of what you want.
The ladder setup is insane.
The bracing is not continous across the entire plane.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Edited 6/13/2009 9:31 pm by ANDYSZ2
walter----4 pictures total?what the !@#$!!!!!! I saw you and mike grumbing about running out of space--- I didn't much pay attention as I figured it mostly affected guys like You and Mike who post a lot of pictures since I got the camera working again I have been taking pictures of some cool little slate and tile roofs I thought you would be interested in---- I was planning on spending a couple hours today posting them guess that ain't gonna happen.
I will continue to take more pictures in case something changes and we can resume posting pictures--- but I aint gonna jump through hoops to put up 4 pictures. My son and I went up yesterday and dried in this new slate roof project----- I am having a ball. building is new construction in a nice little village about 40 minutes from my house. About 2/3 of the roof is in nice shade and filtered daylight--very comfortable working conditions and just a beautiful area. Monday I am going to do a little slate repair closer to home and get a pallet of slate loaded to take up on Tuesday,then Tuesday I will go up and start installation on the new building. BTW--- Keep in mind that Mike is breaktimes foremost salesman of alumapole set-ups----- so there was no way he was going to approve of that scafolding set up!
Stephen
Stephen ,
There are ways around the limited picture posting space available here now .
You've likely seen me post links to Shutterfly albums - a free photo hosting site . I've got 60 or more albums of pictures there that I send out lots of times to prospective clients to show a particular situation .
If you start a free account you can put up a bunch of pictures for us all to see.
I'm looking forward to seeing the roofs and your project too .
Walter
I wasn't suggesting anyone should hire folks to build and use stagings like that -- just thought it was an inventive way for a homeowner to work on his house all Summer when he had time .
I like Aluma - Pole stuff too in the right situation . In fact today I'm taking down pipe stagings used to roof my garage and putting up pumps to use for the frieze board install and patterned slate siding .
I've been on plenty of self made staging, but none that questionable. I might feel better about it if I saw it up close.
I did a couple with leaning scaffold but it was full length 2x8 set closer together than those. The single pole of 2x4 for 4-6 feet is one that bo9thers me, as well as the way things perch on the wooden ladders.Too bad about timing - I was in Belfast friday afternoon to the SW paint store. I almost think I recall seeing that setup a month ago out of the corner of my eye.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul ,
I bet it stays there all Summer so the HO can work as time and weather permits .
I may meet my Vinalhaven connection at Chases later this morning -- and if so I'll be stopping by this hacienda to get the lowdown on the set up .
Maybe he'll take a picture of me on top !!
My FIL is finishing up building a house on Bridge St in Belfast, you can run over and steal his pump jacks! We took MIL to Chases on Mother's Day, my first time--great food!
My guess is that the HO started with the ladder setup, and I suppose it isn't that different from store bought ladder jacks, although with that much trim work to do I would expect to see at least two guys, some lumber, and a chopsaw up there. Ladder jacks spread the weight over two rungs and both rails; your guy has all the weight at a point load on one rail of each ladder.
I'm betting that after he came up with the ladder setup he was pretty pleased with the arrangement, and went about replicating it with lumber. Ladders have smaller than 2x4 rails, "spliced" in the middle, so he "upgraded" to 2x4 lumber, spliced in the middle, set at about the same slope as a ladder.
I agree with the other guys, that 2x4's have way too many knots and that 2x8's or at least 2x6's would be a lot safer. BUT, even as long as they are, they are STILL only spanning 5 or 6 feet. Would you feel comfortable with a point load on the middle of a 2x4 spanning two sawhorses 5' apart? I probably would, as long as it looked like good lumber. The load for his angled support is calculated the same way.
I'd still run over and grab those pump jacks though....
Mike ,
I've got more alum . pump poles and jacks than 90% of the folks here , so I won't be needing them . It's not my job , just someone set up across the street from an apron job I'll be doing soon on a great old brick house .
I thought it was inventive for someone who needed a set up for a long time , and didn't realize this would lead to such a large discourse .
My buddy called to back out for today so my test drive won't happen till next week late .
If it turns out shaky and scary I'll report that just as I will if it seems solid and useful .
Best , Walter
I knew where you are coming from and was surprised to see so much passion on this thread. I was just stating an opinion, but don't mind however somebody else wants to build one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thats the spirit !!
This isn't like pirate days where you're made to walk the plank !!
I'm even more anxious to get up there now - my first impression was one of " man that looks good "
Lots of folks have sown some seeds of doubt so my interest is totally piqued now .
I also didn't get upset about it, because I know YOU have the experience and judgment to know how to look at this.But if a novice were posting it with a recommendation that this is how to build a staging, I'd been all over him like white on rice, for trying to get somebody killed.I recal a thread where an HO was excavating under half of his house to put in a basement. His pictures showed about a 24 x 24 end of a ranch up in the air on about ten 2x4s is all!
He caught hell from everyone, but went ahead and did the work under it that way, proud of himself for how he was right and what idiots we were for being scart for him...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
All i've got to say Walter is: I hope you live to tell us about it! :)
I really don't think that will become an issue , but I appreciate your concerns !
When in doubt send the helper up foist!!!!!
I ain't got no stinking helper matey !!!
It's just little ol' me .
I dont have any either after losing them to my home made scaffolding;]
Never send mere boys to do a man's job .
Thought your site built staging was the cats meow ???
Its amazing how light i can be when i first steps on a plank 25 feet up, I waltz around like a ballerina on tip toes!!!!
Do you put safety blocks under your arms?
Do you know what nails he used or if they were shot or hand nailed?
If you are trying to break a 2x4 do you lay it at an angle and step on it?
Do you brace for racking from the bottom to top across the entire plane?
Do you put your load points on unseen decking and ladder rungs?
Inquiring minds want to know?
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I'll put you down for the do not use category .
As for your questions I took pictures in the rain from across the St . so I can't answer them .
I wasn't suggesting or asking anyone to use this set up -- just thought it was an inventive assembly .
Sorry if it offends you that I've posted it !
Slateman,Why are you apologizing for starting such a great thread? You unexpectedly touched on a topic that exposes the paradigm shift between the store bought yellow tube scaffolds that we are now so used to [and that are expressly and acceptedly regulated by modern safety guidelines] and the nearly lost "art?" of carpenter made staging. I know now that you install slate and are into timber framing. Imagine if either of those two practices were phased out (they are already quite rare). Then you post a pic of a timber frame house or a slated roof. Opinions would go berserk. You may hear a post stating "no way I'd set foot in a timberframe that's just held together with wood dowels, there's six barns down the road from me that are already caved in!" or how 'bout "16 tons of stone on a roof? You must be crazy, no roof can hold that weight. What if one of those slates fall off and hit a child in the head!!!!!". Obviously no one would say such things because they are both still standard and accepted practices. Wait a few decades or so though. I didn't really mean to hurt any feelings by calling anyone a wimp. On my jobs I have never forced anyone to do anything they didn't feel safe doing; I have found that forcing someone to continue working when they feel unsafe just leads accidents due to sudden wobbly knee syndrome. But that's not to say I wouldn't give someone a good ribbing for wimping out. Personally, I feel that it just takes a experiential confidence to put yourself up high on a minimally engineered platform and perform the task at hand. If I never got prodded to jump into sketchy situations, I would probably be one of those saying "no, no, not safe" but experience has led me to say "yes". Thanks for the great thread.DC....with a still perfect safety record
"Why are you apologizing for starting such a great thread?"Maybe because he is one of the last few true gentlemen left in the trades. I never cease to be amazed at his manners and think of how well he must have been raised, and what a fine wife he must have.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, apparently good manners are getting rare in the trades; I've been following the "Job Site Work Habits" thread and cannot believe some of the post that seem to display a certain lack of respect going on between employers, employees, and fellow tradesmen in general. It sure makes me feel blessed to have worked so often around people who are willing to go out of their way to make the project go smooth. DC
DC ,
Andy seemed quite put out in 2 posts so I said I was sorry if it offended him -- not that I was sorry I started the thread .
On the contrary I was quite amazed at how much response it generated -- both liking it and thinking it was trash .
Maybe I'll be proved wrong if the HO will grant me access , but my first impression was that I thought it would function nicely .
Walter
Thanks for starting this thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying it and learned quite a bit along the way.
Would I work that scaffolding? I don't know, but I'm glad to see such a wide variety of opinions.
Don ,
Thanks for joining in on this .
Put out is more harsh then I wanted to be felt.
But I have been on other peoples scafffolding and said to myself this is not very sturdy only to find out when tearing down part that they had nailed it up and together with #8's.
I have seen arms pull away and nails let go so safety blocks under the arms is a necessity in my opionion.
I have also seen racking bring down scaffolding so bracing is a major concern.
My lead framer had broke his leg and back when a fellow employee jumped from one section to another and started a cascade that crushed him.This was before he worked for me and so he and I had an understanding that all scaffolding built got a second check by him and then a third checkoff by me before any work was performed on it.
The reason I commented twice was no one responded on my first attempt and I wanted to make sure readers understood the importance of spottinfg deficiencies and correcting them.
I truly believe that working on scaffolding can be one of the most dangerous aspects of cornice work and as such highlighting that fact is important to me.
Now as far as going out on the scaffolding shown to test its stability I would not be beyond doing that, but working all day on said scaffolding I would refuse.
I am glad you posted the pictures and created the debate as it gave me and others a forum to bring out our personnal concerns and experience. Which is why I log on every day and read for hours, as there is much to learn, from as dedicated group of people as there is here.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Ya know, when talking safe staging set-ups, folks need to be reminded that steel pipe staging is not automatically safe also.In all my years of working on wood pump jacks and self made staging, I have never seen a collapse, tho I have seem pictures of failures.But I have personally witnessed two towers of pipe fall over because of careless set-ups and no checks. Fortunately neither resulted in serious injury, tho both could have. One was a 3-4 story tower with bricklayers setting brick from it. It was not tied to the building, and was erected on fresh backfill. Rain all weekend and come Monday AM, they just jumped right on up there to follow fridays work without a look at the feet. Half hour later it went down with a load of brick, mud and 2-3 guys. It was hard to watch, but they all walked away from it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<Ya know, when talking safe staging set-ups, folks need to be reminded that steel pipe staging is not automatically safe also.>> Thanks for bringing that up, it is an important point. I've had three real accidence in my life and two involved
steel staging. The first was a three tier set up with to much stone up
top. The aluminum planking gave on one end dumping all the stone
down to the next level which I was on.
I just dove out the side and got very lucky. Three or four stones
landed on me but I walked away.
The other was completely my fault!
Young and stupid. Enjoying my work, listening to tunes. Rather then stepping on to
the next plank I sort of hopped over.
Snapped like a twig and I rode it down. Even new proper equipment must be used correctly and with care.
and be aware of your setting.
My first wife's uncle was a brick layer. Stout Italian type that you'd think could tolerate getting run over by a Mack truck and laugh it off.He stepped back to admire his work and fell down to the next level5-6' is all. But he landed flat on his back on a few bricks there.He got up and shook it off and went back to work. That night after dinner, he told his wife he felt tired and went to bed early.He bled out from a ruptured spleen internally. Never woke up.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I worked at my slate job today -- across the street from the staging set up in my initial post .
At around 10 2 guys showed up as it had stopped showering . I needed some longer GRK screws for my project so as I was heading out I talked with those guys and asked if at lunchtime I could try out that wooden affair .
We traded business cards , he wanted some pointers on soldering copper , and I was good to go and try it out .
I found it very stable and not shaky or scary at all . It's at a perfect height for the rebuilding of the Greek Revival eaves . The back rails are sturdy and add a great sense of comfort .
I know a lot of those foks who found it poorly built from the initial post will likely remain unconvinced , but thats my appraisal .
A few pics from today
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
A few more for today
View Image
View Image
View Image
I just saw this, and figured since you were counting, I'd give my hell yeah I'd go up on that... but, I'm still glad to hear you survived<G>I figured the guy probably screwed it together with piffin screws, too lol.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Snort ,
Everything is nailed off well using duplex nails .
Walter
twar a feeble attempt at humor, Walter... heh, heh, heh <G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I knew that , but responded so that others would know the proper nails were used .
Glad to see you're not a CSMF when it comes to working up high !!
<Glad to see you're not a CSMF when it comes to working up high !!>I love it... once I get up there lolhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Walter,
Thank you for the follow up. I would have liked to have seen a 2x nailed above the window horns and a brace back to the uprights.
Over the years we have built creative wood staging including one 2 1/2 story set over a glass roofed greenhouse.
This has been a good thread!
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck ,
I'm sure we all could find ways to make it safer , but the guys working on it seem relaxed and comfortable .
He told me it took over 3 days to construct it , but will be left there until Fall for the HO to paint from it .
The carpenter is a younger guy with not a huge volume of work , and not an arsenal of stagings either .
Thanks for your insights and joining in the postings . Shows just how much differently people view a given subject - some willing to climb up and others wanting no part of it .
Best , Walter
So ? it wasn't a do it yourselfer? and the angled 2x4s weren't shaky?
Mike ,
The carpenter built it for his use , but it will remain there all Summer while the owner works on painting the eaves and all .
It felt really solid , the trussed effect of the angled main uprights and the back brace arms and the supports for planks .
Walter
Thanks for the closer look, Walter. I'd be concerned that the placement of the angled 2 x 4 props means you can easily fall between the inboard scaffold plank and the wall of the house - a fall that would be just as bad as falling through the outboard guard rail.
So if you lean in to inspect something on the wall of the house it would be very easy to fall straight down on the inboard side.
Jeff
Thats where care must be taken .
"... but will be left there until Fall for the HO ..."
We're hoping NOT ... ;o)
Thats the end of Summer -- October or so .
If you tried this out you'd see I'm not making up it's rigidity .
"fall for the HO"Uh, Walter, that was a joke ;o)
I know it was Jeff , just zinging back at ya.
Walter,Bureaucrats might not like the setup but I'm sure the guys who are working on it knew just how good it was. I'm glad you had a chance to talk with the guys and stand on it and give an honest assessment of it.
View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe ,
After all the hoopla last week over it's supposed risk of falling down with weight on it -- I had to see for myself just how sturdy it is .
My initial reaction was " what a nice set up " never even occured to me that it might not be usable .
walter
So the very last picture where the block is nailed up to rotted siding is sound?
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Andy ,
Theres a verticle post at the corner just a few feet from that .
Again , I'm not asking anyone to use this set up -- just reporting and showing pictures of my visit today .
I work up in the air on a daily basis so maybe my reaction is not the same as someone who's up there infrequently .
Walter
thought you might enjoy this - mural scaffolding 1935!
View ImageView Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
I'll begin.
Guardrail way too low.
No toe board.
I could go on...
Jail construction, 1888
View ImageView Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
NO guardrails.
Two guys on the top level with no fall protection.
Ladder not tied off.
What year was OSHA established?
good eye! I don't know when they were founded, but you should be working for them! Just stay away from my jobsites =)
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/21/2009 12:24 am by Huck
"Just stay away from my jobsites =) "DITTO!.....an dem guys weren't wearin' no safety goggles or hard hats or respirators, I bet that paint has lead in it.....lots to nitpick over at most any jobsite.DC
She could come paint for me anytime !
I'm loving your other thread , even though I haven't responded --actually both the others !
long sleeved shirts? In June? What's the temp there?
97° here today.
Thanks of the update, Walter.
John ,
The ice just left the big lakes a couple weeks ago .
It was rainy yesterday morning and it reached 64 by days end .
Andy ,
I'm glad I posted it too -- not having any idea the differences of opinion that it would generate , but glad to see some good discussion on a very good topic .
I see all the points you're making -- everyone wants to return home safely after a days work with no injuries .
I'm glad you posted again today 'cause I felt badly that I may have offended you earlier .
All your points are quite valid and I didn't mean to diminish them .
You never know what type of response to a thread will develop -- I thought a dozen posts and this one would be put to bed .
Walter
"Do you put safety blocks under your arms?"No.That makes it difficult to get any work done.Not to mention the underarm bruises at the end of the day...Something is only impossible... Until it isn't...You are always welcome at Quittintime
OSHA ? Doesn't that stand for 'Old Slaters Have Acrophobia ?'
Jeff ;o)
If we are voting.. I agree with Mike Smith
Does not look safe
"If we are voting..."Hmm, that would be a helpful feature on this forum!
I am a member of another forum that has a "poll" feature.Hasn't FHB ran polls in BT before?Sure seems like it would help the magazine out with tool reviews if they polled us and ran that with the article. Also when new members come here and ask (again) what table saw we recommend, we could just point them at the last poll on asked tool.DC
I never learn anything from polls - it is the discussion of what and why that teaches me things.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree that a topic needs to answer the hows and whys to be of real substance.But, sometimes just looking at statistical data of where everyone weighs in on a particular topic is quite informative in its self and often surprising.It could involve a tool type, a common building technique, or a code interpretation. I can envision many useful applications of BT polling.DC...lover of info and data
and no... i ain't no wimp
Well, I am and there is no way I'd walk under it, let alone work on it.
Although, professionally speaking, it looks like a bonanza for one of my colleagues when the guy's buddy breaks sundry bones.
I'm no engineer, but aren't the lower sections of the single 2x4 uprights in tension, as opposed to compression? Isn't that a bad thing?
Dreamcatcher ,
I think you're correct when you say he's had an historical perspective on this subject .
I thought it was incredibly well planned out and executed .
I trust he will let me try it out in a week and I can report back with my thoughts then .
Thanks , Walter
DC,
I looked it up. OSHA says "lean-to" scaffolding is strictly prohibited. That kind of looks like a lean to scaffold to me. Also, splices need mending plates. Lumber needs to be high grade. I see a lot of knots in that lumber. The gable end section is absurd. No side rails on the top part, it doesn't appear to be attached to the structure, and no way OSHA passes the ladder set-up... also, No toe-boards anywhere. Don't try and call people wimpy for wanting to work safe.
That is a rule that I never knew about; but I looked and sure enough you are right. I will definitely take that into consideration in the future.To my knowledge, lumber need only be free of rot, cracks, errant cross grain and dead or open knots. #2 framing lumber (with tight knots) as that appears to be is perfectly fine to use. I suppose all your wood scaffold systems are built using only #1 CVG 2x's?
{rhetorical}I believe mending plates apply to pump jack scaffolds only and are required because of the manner a pump jack system strains the 4x4 supports causing them to want to buckle and delaminate.I also believe that the toe board requirement only applies if there will be any chance of workers simultaneously above and below. I was under the impression that the builder of that staging was working solo.Still, I must retract that those stagings would be considered OSHA approved, as those stagings most certainly DO NOT COMPLY with OSHA requirements; 1926.451(a)(20)But I also maintain that I would happily work on it; be it not in an OSHA observed area. DC
OMG
I saved some other pics of his work.
NAIL IT !!!
I'd bet the bamboo scaffolding is better than slanted 2x4s scabbed together leaning against the building.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
some extremely tall buildings are built around the world using nothing but bamboo and no it's not unsafe!
just think what they could do with a telehandler!!!.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Thanks T ,
You sure know how to stir the pot !!!
Maybe he'll be using shellac on the woodwork up there !!
Not even close . This set up looks rock solid to me .
THe ladder looks like what my dad used to call "instant death".
Looks sturdy, well thought out and well executed. I would be comfortable up there, except I think the ladders are probably overloaded. I've been on worse!
Mike ,
Same here , I think it's a great set up .
When I first started I used some really horrible items . Just came from a job in Orono the old Masonic Building where I've told the owner a 60 ' bucket is essential to completing the work .
Walter
I'm not liking the ladder set up all that much.
Look more closely -- they are not supporting that much weight .
walter--- I would get on that with out a second thought.
drying in that slate project to morrow-- have a bunch of pictures of some stuff for you i will try to start a thread maybe sunday on some general slate and tile pictures looked at a tile repair project yesterday-- took some pictures--- If we do it will probably have to rent a bucket,and shut down a city street/alley for a week------people are really excited about THAT lemme tell ya!
stephen
Stephen ,
Have you been following the lack of picture posting space we are being limited to now ??
There are other ways around it , but not as simple as just attaching here .
Looking forward to those you've taken .
Walter
Are you kidding me?! Those ladder have a bow in them from the deadload alone. Hate to see somebody bouncing around on top of them.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Makes me get a tingle way down there.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I liked it till I saw the way the ladders were integrated into it all. They look way over loaded.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Maybe most of your work is ground based .
It is, those ladders still look overloaded though.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Walter -
I gotta say that's a fairly impressive setup. But for the price of the OSHA fine, the lumber, and the time it took to build it, they could have bought or rented a pipe scaffold setup and be finished with the job in the time it took to build that.
Around here, if I built something like that, OSHA would have been called before we ever got to stand on it. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant ,
I think it's homeowner built - for a long term project of working on the eaves and gable ends . If that's the case the rental costs would far exceed what he has in 2 x stock , which he can re use .
With railings on that set up I'm not sure OSHA could cite that project even with hired help up there .
Walter
When I first started out in the trades, I worked for a guy who did all is own staging. I must have built about 95% of everything I've walked on for the first 15 or so years I was a carpenter. Building staging was just another skill like building forms back then. Some were better than others. That staging looks fine to me and I'd walk it.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe ,
Thanks for adding that story from the way folks used to build things -- starting with their own forms and stagings .
I used to do a fair amount until I started buying lifts of pipe staging as I could afford them . In a tough spot I still will build something if needed .
Still got a full box of 16 d double heads !!
Walter
I don't like the way some of the supports are leaning and there is a vertical member loading it about mid span.
I broke a 2x4 a while back using it as a brace. I flexed it mid span and it broke pretty unexpectedly.
I think this new spruce lumber can be fragile in certain ways.
Why not continue the vertical member all the way to the ground? Flower bed?"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
View Image
Nice flower bed. I just finished landscaping my front yard and the rear I just keep up.
I consider myself to be a gardener amoung my other titles.
How did the staging feel? Did you give it the bounce test? ;^)"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
It felt very usable and sturdy .
I give every set up I climb up on the bounce test !
the guys with"ground based" work,DO have a different perspective. as far as the pictures---- I really haven't posted many in the past so I can't imagine I have used up my allottment---whatever it may be.
i will edit what I post to conserve my future resources!stephen
Stephen ,
Under the new rules or quotas you get a pie chart of 1000 kb , which equals out to 4 or 5 resized pictures to be able to post .
Walter
Well I thought it was kinda neat. I'm imagining McDesign coming up with something like that.
But I'm curious as to why he didn't continue with the lean-to poles and used the ladders on that other side? Something to do with supporting the load on the next level up?
View Image
Steve ,
We can only wonder why until this old geezer wanders over to strike up a conversation next week and find out all the reasons behind this set up .
It's across the street from the " brick house pulling apart " job I'll be working on soon .
I thought it was a great piece of work and am anxious to see how sturdy it is in real life !
Best , Walter
Walter,It reminds me of the old Calvin and Hobbes comic.Calvin: How do they know the load limit on bridges, Dad?
Dad: They drive bigger and bigger trucks over the bridge until it breaks. Then they weigh the last truck and rebuild the bridge. :)I'll be curious to hear how you find the staging when you get up close next week.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
Steve ,
I'm hopeful the HO will let me up there once he finds out my career and intentions .
Maybe if he comes over and I show him what I'm up to across the street , that will grease the wheels I hope .
Maybe I'll get his e mail addy and send him the link to the thread !!! Only after I've scampered around up there.
I didn't think this was going to be as controversial as it seems to have become .
Enjoy the Maine mascots on Tues .
Best ,. Walter
It looks pretty good to me.
I've certainly crawled around on a lot worse.
If it was mine I would have put some braces from
the main poles back down to the foundation. Cut that
span down some.
PS
Is that vinyl ?
Henley ,
Yes It looks like vinyl . It was raining and I took the pictures from quite a distance .
General concensus is that you can use it and live !
Looks OK to me, but I don't like the angled part in the first picture.
If those were 2 x 8 and through bolted, I would feel better... but not as good as if those were vertical.
I also don't like wood ladders, but maybe this is ok if the ladders are in good shape.
If it was my house, I would probably buy the scaffolding (even used on the net) or look into a long term rental... but that's just me.
I wasn't asking anyone else to use or adopt this staging -- just thought it was inventive of the HO .
I know that there are numerous refinements that could be made , but can the work be done comfortably from this arrangement ??
If the HO is willing I'll have the answer next Friday when I go to work nearby .
Thanks all.
Walter
I build scaffold with double 2by4s straight up , I screw hangers to the wall, Set guard rails, X brace the poles, I pass OSHA, ..
I do this on a tall roof and if it meets the specs no one has to be tied in{unless there real picky}..
Never any problem with the weight even setting bundles of shingles on but i do try and be carefull.
Its a lot of work but saves time but we can set it up pretty fast now,, They look for the height being right for the guardrails and even a toeboard kick
I never saw the poles set at an angle like that or a ladder used though does not make much sense..
I dont have a pic but mine would look the same if the guardrail post went straight to the ground and the board that the pics rest on went into the wall and into a hanger bracket.
I modified my system from ideas 2 other roofers used and they went over theres with OSHA too
So you don't mind using site built stagings then . Ever use pipe stagings too ??
Seen any postings by your Bud Malo lately ??
I have sets of pipe staging but they have to be outside and they rusted right through in just a few years as im right by the Ocean. No Malo sightings but i miss my little buddy!!!!;]
Didn't realize stuff deteriorated that quickly . Most of my lifts of pipe stage live outside but hold up well.
Going to add on to the garage to store a bunch of ladders , pics and stagings so next Winter I can access it more easily .
Seen his name on the board , but maybe he can't post !
I might add that when building the scaffold i set it so we are standing at waist level to the fascia, Just nice for starting the roofing.
Thats where I like to be too -- no matter what type of staging it is .
Malo's busy today - cedar shingle roof.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
did you ever break him of humpin' your leg?
He also had to get 4d nails, 5d are no longer made, and would have been too long anyway. 4d=1.5"
View Image
Edited 6/13/2009 5:29 pm ET by Malo
>>>>>>>5d are no longer made,<<<<<<
Been a while since I hand nailed any cedar shingles.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Just glad I looked before I nailed, that would have been ugly.
How many dog bones is that project worth !!!