Thought some of you might appreciate seeing what turned out to be a very nice custom fabricated stair rail by a novice welder / fabricator.
I took a beginner’s welding class with some old college buddies earlier this year: 5 sessions, mondays, from 5:30 to 9:00 pm. 250$ The instructor worked out of a welding supply shop in Indianapolis.
We learned torch cutting, plasma cutting, arc / stick welding, and MIG welding. I rented a mig welder to get started on the railing project for my house.
I have been working on my house, a duplex, for 4 years now, renovating it with the occasional help from my brother. I salvage anything I can get my hands on, inlcuding some NICE 7 piece oak crown moulding from an old building we were renovating at work (can barely be seen in the top right of one photo).
Also, I am one test away from being licensed as an architect.
Anyway, here you go:
0.jpg — this is the house
1-5.jpg — these are the railing
I custom fabricated the newel posts, including the bands, and hand-bent the curved 1/2″ tubes with a welded jig made from some scrap tube.
Let me know what you think!
jj
Replies
I like I like. Also particularly appreciate the industrial look. Pretty sturdy too it seems :-)
Very cool, but would it pass the 4" sphere test for compliance with code?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Looks real nice.
Glad to see you did not go cheap on the amount of steel.
what kind of finish are you planning?
Might I recommend
scotchbrite
clean with laq. cleaner
gunblue
scotchbrite
clean again
varnish
what kind of finish are you planning?
Might I recommend
scotchbriteclean with laq. cleanergunbluescotchbriteclean againvarnish
I was simply going to paint it. I figured it would be easier than buffing the entire thing to remove the mill scale. that being said, what kind of prep, or rather, how much prep with the scotchbrite pad do you have to do to get the blueing to stick? will it cover the areas that are different shades due to having been sanded more or less? will it give the steel a motled effect, or will the gunblue finish out smooth?
tia. i'm getting close to this stage.
i guess i could always get a sample and go to town, but it would be nice to know what to expect.
jj
"It depends on the situation..."
Here are my steps, your mileage may vary.
Try a sample, you might like it...Hot rolled mild steel.1. Flapwheel (sparky brand 40 grit) the welds.
-try not to leave a divit. The next step will take down the final hump of the weld
2. Random orbit (60 grit Porter Cable 5in. RO Sander) all the steel, including the welds
-This removes most of the scale/rust and unifies the welds. If not, get a stronger sander, or lower grit
3. Clean with laq. thinner
4. Aggressive scotchbrite
-I pour a little laq. thinner, or acetone, on the scotchpads
5. Spray bottle of gun blue over whole surface, let set, wipe off. Repeat
-I use blueing from King Arch. Metals, http://www.kingmetals.com Or buy bulk and mix my own. Dont try gunblue from the sporting good store. Too expensive
6. Clean with the fine or superfine scotch pads
7. A little acetone/ paint thinner to clean off residue Touch up with any spots with blue that might need it.
-Too much acetone will take off the blue.
8. Clear coat sprayThis leaves for me a unified surface that looks like cold rolled steel. It sounds like a lot of steps, and it is, but it goes quick and leaves a really nice steel surface. The archys I have done work for love it.Paint will look, in my eyes, cheap. Also, the scale will still show through.Weld up a few pieces of scrap, and give it a run.
heck YES it complies with the 4" sphere code. what kind of architect do you think i am? *G*
actually, i drew it up in autocad to work out per code, but i'm not sure if there aren't a few spots that are non-compliant, but only by an extra 1/2" or so.
i'm not sure that the 4" exists in the residential code anyway, at least without looking it up -- i've seen modern houses done with virtually NO railings.
and thanks for the input about the finish. i was going to paint it black, but i may have to revisit that idea with some of the finishes i've discovered lately.
jj
It does exist: IRC section R316.2 "Required guards on open stairways, raised floor areas, balconies and porches shall have intermediate rails or ornamental closures that do not allow passage of a sphere of 4 inches in diameter".
You should also note the next sentence: "Required guards shall not be constructed with horizontal rails or other ornamental pattern that results in a ladder effect".
It is pretty, though.
"Required guards shall not be constructed with horizontal rails or other ornamental pattern that results in a ladder effect".
Was that taken out in the IRC 2003?American Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
It's from page 49 of the 2000 edition.
I've seen it in 2000, hust not IRC2003American Tradition
Trim Carpentry Co.
"i drew it up in autocad to work out per code, but i'm not sure if there aren't a few spots that are non-compliant, but only by an extra 1/2" or so."
So that's just the one spot a 2 year old will get his/her head stuck. I don't think that would pass code, little ones will climb it like a ladder and end up over the top.
RANT ALERT:
just wanted to let all of the anal code reviewers know that the maximum designed dimension on this rail is 4". so yes, it complies with code. okay?!
what is it with you 'glass is half empty' type people? are you the same kind of people that make your kids wear helmets while doing their homework? you realize that a kid can climb ove a rail that is 3'6", right? it could be 30' tall and someone would find a way to jump over it. are we to cover every unused electrical outlet because there is a potential for some retard to poke a metal object in there?
can we now have a few more comments abou the rail itself? maybe something about the artistic expression, or the finish options, or just the fact that someone who knew nothing about steel prior to this project created something quite nice? or just look at it and go "nice" and don't SAY anything.
next time i'll qualify the discussion to limit the nit-picky comments form all the 'i know more than you's. if your kid comes over and gets his head stuck in my rail, it's your problem. that's why i have homeowners.
You're right -- we did focus our comments in the wrong direction. Let me be the first to correct that oversight....Wow, Linden, your first attempt at a steel rail shows you have real potential to create a beautiful railing which combines art and functionality. You can be proud of it. Just so long as it doesn't contribute to your son's accidental death.Ok, enough sarcasm. You did a fine job. Really. But why provide one more opportunity for a child to be injured when following the code isn't hard to do? It's easier to build another railing than to raise another child.
wow. stop. really. don't bother commenting. it meets code. period.
the nice thing is that there's still 'interpretation' as to whether it creates a 'ladder' type effect. i would say that it doesn't, others would say that it does. now what?
more kids to make?
Just remember, codes are just the minimum standards allowed by law. It doesn't mean they're always right or sensible or wrong for that matter.
I'm not sure if this works in your favor or not.
it could be 30' tall and someone would find a way to jump over it. are we to cover every unused electrical outlet because there is a potential for some retard to poke a metal object in there?
next time i'll qualify the discussion to limit the nit-picky comments form all the 'i know more than you's. if your kid comes over and gets his head stuck in my rail, it's your problem. that's why i have homeowners.
To say something like that you've just proved what a DICK you are. If any kid including your own got their head stuck in your rail. Someone should stick your ####!n head in there and twist it off you Ignorant piece of SH!T...................................
Joe Carola
Edited 8/19/2005 7:11 pm ET by FramerJoe
Gee lindenboy: A bit sensitive about criticism if you're not ready for others opinions don't post pictures of your work. I will say maybe some did jump to conclusions about the 4" spacing. It is hard to judge scale on a picture like that so maybe it is fine for code.
You could finish it any number of ways, paint, powder coat, clean it and clear coat it.
if your kid comes over and gets his head stuck in my rail, it's your problem. that's why i have homeowners."
Actually it will be your problem.
Anyway try and have a nice day.
citing code is NOT constructive criticism, folks. i can get 'code' from the blank, cryptic binder in our library.
usually what is nice about humans is their ability to be creative with their thoughts and not just a tape recorder. i know there are people out there like that, it's just hard to sift through comments like the last few. they discredit those comments that are worth reading.
I'm not much on ornamental steel, but you've done a great job on this project. I've done a fair share of red iron work but nothing like this.
Keep posting about the project, end result pictures are expected.........If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Looks like a ladder to me.
Nice work... I love steel... cut it short... weld it back and cut again... in the last 2 weeks I've welded up 24 balconys for my loft project... just love to make a great weld... been welding since i got my first gas set up @12yo... now I'm pretty good at everything but tig... great thing about steel is I reuse everything (large pot sandblaster comes in handy) it's only scrap when it's someone elses... it's supplies when it's mine... I happen to like the ground..polished... clear coat look... penetrol works well... As you know and have found out most trades are over rated with good tools, a little research and time most people can do nice work... maybe better than someone "who does it all the time" just because you are pay'n attention to the details... and it's your stuff...
keep up the good work
p
ponytl,
You say you are good at everything but TIG. Get a rig set up and give it a go. You'll love it. I worked in seawater desal for eleven years, and all the SSTL pipe is TIG welded. During construction and refitting of various plants, I had a chance to do a lot of TIG welding. You don't need a fancy power supply to get started, though some of the new power supplies are remarkable.
Let me know what you think!
jj
I call shenanigans on your claim of this passing the 4" sphere test....
Building inspectors in my part of town would not pass it because of
the risk of someone using it as a ladder....but I have pulled my own
shenanigans on inspectors to get cable railings into homes....not that
I fooled any BI's...
you did ask......
I think the design is unsafe and ugly.
You should do away with the horizontal bars and stay with the vertical ones.
I like it. It has a sort of 1930's art deco ocean liner look to it. As for the 4" sphere and ladder stuff, fitting sheets of plexiglass to the inboard side should solve the problem.
-- J.S.
As a fellow arch (also slightly short of registration) and Cancer sign, I feel compelled to stand up with you. Nice rail, even better to see someone trying something different. Keep up the good work.
Also, concerning the 4" rule, I agree that the handrail situation has gotten out of hand. It's no longer about safety, it's about insurance settlements and litigation. Used to be 6", then 4", then horizontal/ladder effects, etc.. That said, if the BI doesn't agree, you will need to make it comply. Not stating a case, just cold, hard reality. Don't take any of the responses personally, that's their job.
(you're in Indianapolis . . . Ball State grad? And I hope that dog ain't peein' in picture #1) :)
Edited 8/22/2005 6:44 pm ET by draftguy
Nice rail, even better to see someone trying something different.
I agree with the "trying something different" part. The craftmanship, from afar appears to be good and the design is definitely different.
I'm having a hard time seeing any beauty in it, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've got my own preferences and if I bought that house, I'd immediatly tear that rail out!
I'd also like to jump into the fray regarding code compliance, especially since the poster claims to be one test away from being an architect. I guess my opinion is that architects should actually be trying to design interesting rails that meet or exceed the spirit of the code. Architects have to be held to a higher standard, since they are "professionals".
I don't think this rail would meet our code here in Michigan becuase of the horizontal nature of the rails. I know for sure it doesn't meet the spirit of the code.
Since I don't want to criticize without offering a viable solution: Add a clear acrylic panel on the inside of the rail.
blue
Ive got a lot of the same thoughts you do and some more.
I wouldnt pass it , because I couldnt. He screwed up on code plain and simple and it should be addressed. He should read the codes on stairs. No argument can occur after reading them. He is liable and he should consult a professional in that area. An inspector puts his own city liable in passing unsafe building. On the lighter side lots of pros screw up on codes and have to redirect their efforts. Hes not in a boat alone. Anyone can make a mistake.
I do commend his first attempt at something and that should be commended. I would hate to take that part of the project away.
Tim Mooney
Hey Tim - side question:
How do cable-stay type railings work with regards to the ladder rule? Also, at what angle is it no longer ladder?
http://www.cablerail.com/standard/overview.shtml
Edited 8/23/2005 12:36 pm ET by jhausch
I'm having a hard time seeing any beauty in it, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've got my own preferences and if I bought that house, I'd immediatly tear that rail out!
you do realize that it isn't quite complete, right? when i bought the house, there wasn't even a railing there anymore.
I'd also like to jump into the fray regarding code compliance, especially since the poster claims to be one test away from being an architect. I guess my opinion is that architects should actually be trying to design interesting rails that meet or exceed the spirit of the code. Architects have to be held to a higher standard, since they are "professionals".
my opinion is that once licensed, an architect takes responsibility for what they design. in certain circumstances if they are willing to take a chance on something, they should be allowed to bend the code -- like the law, which i beileve to be shades of gray, there lies a great deal of interpretation between right and wrong.
if this were an elementry school or day care facility, this railing *would* be unacceptable. because it is a private residence, with limited access and use, the owner should be able to have NO railing if so desired.
furthermore, as many have witnessed, my personal convictions are strong and i am passionate about what i feel is right under the circumstances at hand. i don't think that i should be limited to vertical bars because of other peoples past issues, just like i don't think i should be limited to 2 packs of sudafed at the drug store because a bunch of idiots are making meth out of it.
as my wife constantly reminds me, i am not above the law, however to me everything in the world is open to interpretation. does that make me argumentative? (rhetorical btw).
lastly, i'm not sure of exactly what 'the spirit of the code' is. if you spent 2 days running code review on a building, i think your interpretation of the 'spirit of the code' would be 'to cover one's a$$'. whether or not that is right is open to discussion.
jj
btw, here's my new footer:
"It depends on the situation..."
I really like the Streamline/Art Moderne look to it.
But:
"...because it is a private residence, with limited access and use, the owner should be able to have NO railing if so desired."
I both agree and disagree. It's your property, you should be able to do what you want. But when you are done, you should have to burn the house down rather than selling it. So many people do what they want, never bring it up to code before selling it, and then the hazard is passed on to the next person. That next person may be a naive first time home buyer who is unaware of the hazards. And on the day they move in their kid climbs the rail and falls, causing permanent brain damage. The parents, excited about finally having a home, didn't even think about the climbability of that cool looking railing. Parents, contrary to popular belief, do NOT foresee all the danger possibilities in a room when they enter - they always miss the thing that their kids are going to try.
Don't forget that a large portion of the code is written in blood. When you bend those rules you are ignoring the blood that wrote it and setting up the same thing to happen again.
Don't forget that a large portion of the code is written in blood.
really? i think the larger portion is written with the green ink squeezed from the money lost in frivolous lawsuits.
(it's just a joke, btw).
jj"It depends on the situation..."
By the way, I like the railings. "Art-Deco Ocean Liner" was an apt description.
I also feel for you when it comes to everyone's code-related replies. . . I would have replied to the 4" question with "yes - the entire railing passes the 4" sphere test except at the bottom where the angled portion creates the gap with the tread and riser - that passes the 6" sphere test" - of course, hindsight is always 20/20
I am guessing that the "Ladder" effect is somewhat subjective - we'll see what Tim says to my previous question about cable railings and angles.
I also feel for you when it comes to everyone's code-related replies. . . I would have replied to the 4" question with "yes - the entire railing passes the 4" sphere test except at the bottom where the angled portion creates the gap with the tread and riser - that passes the 6" sphere test" - of course, hindsight is always 20/20
If only that were the case...to clarify, the only areas that are more than 4" are the areas at the top and bottom of the decorative curved pieces, between the border and the apex of the curve. the only reason they aren't 4" max. is because while hand bending each piece, i fudged too much on the original shape. i didn't have a physical template as i made the first one and fit all the rest to the first shape.
on paper it works out perfectly, alas the quality / concern of the person doing the work comes into scrutiny. i now know how difficult it is manhandling bar stock of steel with a cheap welded jig and no bending equipment other than one of the rectangular tubes. this didn't come out of a shop -- only a garage.
it brings up a good point that was already hit on -- the fact that doing this sort of hands on work really adds to one's credibility as an architect or designer. most architects don't do much more than pick up a pencil (or mouse these days). i try to get experience in as many trades as possible, not so much for professional development, but because it a great hobby too.
jj"It depends on the situation..."
Since you asked...add one vote on each side. I like the wavey parts, but I woulda made the verticals vertical, rather than perpendicular to the run of the stairs.Just took the same kinda welding course. Lotsa fun. Got a MIG welder and having a good ol' time with it.
What do you think?
Design-wise, Cloud Hidden said what I was thinking - it's amost right, but could be improved by avoiding 'uprights' that run 90 degrees from the run of the stairs. Instead they could either be parallel to the newells, or any angle but parallel to either the rail or newells. This would visually get rid of reference (aside from border) to a grid and make the insert sections more like a decorative panel.
The lower segment has one rectangle. But with the triangles at each end it works as a cohesive 'panel'. On the upper section, however, there are two rectangles side by side, emphasizing that you've only partly deviated from a grid and have repeated the pattern within blocks. Pattern within rectangles would work if you had a long horizontal run.
The overall design would be great in a bar or restaurant (someone will pipe up with whether bar patrons can be counted on to not climb them). Maybe you'll get opportunities to do more work in commercial spaces where stronger design statements get more appreciation.
The overall design would be great in a bar or restaurant (someone will pipe up with whether bar patrons can be counted on to not climb them). Maybe you'll get opportunities to do more work in commercial spaces where stronger design statements get more appreciation.
part of the design process for this railing was to make sure that it was something i could build relatively easily.
also, i had to fit the correct angle for the stringer -- i didn't want to do a lot of field welding because i was supposed to have been able to fabricate in a shop and i didn't have a nice welder to use in the field (i only had a farmer's stick welder, which is really messy and somewhat difficult for a novice to use)
and i wanted something where i didn't have to worry about the angle of the verticals being 'dead on' -- it wouldn't have looked to hot if i had shop fabricated the whole piece, and when it was installed, the verticals were off by 10 degrees.
so the result was something with a lot of 90 degree angles to the parallel rails that could be 'field fit' to the stringer angle. the 1" tubes and decorative panels running perpendicular and parallel to the stringer angle were all fabricated in my buddy's garage, with the tubes extending well beyond the knewl posts and the stringer. i clamped the whole thing onto the stair and marked the cuts for the proper angle, then cut the tubes to make sure that my fit was dead on square with the stringer. the 1/2 bars were then field welded with a MIG welder that i rented and plumbed one at a time.
the ideas in your head can be most fantastic and wonderful at times, but if you can't make them work in the field, they're for the sketch books. it isn't to say that what you're suggesting couldn't have been done, but for me i think 1/2 the design is based on making sure that what was installed looked as good as it could for my skill level, cost and equipment procurement.
so here is something similar without the perpendiculars --- file attached."It depends on the situation..."
Nice ACad dwgs. Working on one now using speedrail for an exterior deck. As I said in an earlier post, I think it is great when architects get practical building experience. I was a carpenter before studying architecture and I was dismayed at the lack of experience and building knowledge of many of my fellow students. But those who did build, particularily designs of their own creation, produced some really nice stuff. Sometimes when you tackle something like your railing as a novice, you are less restrained to explore. This thread has been interesting exploring the conflicts between function and aesthetics, ultimately if both can be resolved then you have hit it. None the less I think there are places you can bend the rules slightly.
It's very nice work. In your next CAD plan, consider using glass panels to meet the safety standards - but frosted or amber coloured glass could be stunning if the lighting is right. Might have to lighten up the materials to make it work with the extra depth.
You also have a nice, solid, foursquare home there. I love the variety one finds in established neighbourhoods like that as the homes have been modified / modernized by various occupants and as fashions change. Once almost bought a home of similar vintage because of how much we loved the highly styled mid-century interior including "Brady-bunch" staircase - that made your design look like it comes with a seatbelt and airbag. {G}
"my opinion is that once licensed, an architect takes responsibility for what they design. in certain circumstances if they are willing to take a chance on something, they should be allowed to bend the code -- like the law, which i beileve to be shades of gray, there lies a great deal of interpretation between right and wrong."
Again, I have to requestion your believes. Where in your code book does it address that ? Im not squareing off with you on this subject , but I know where a BI stands. He must stand there . There is no one else in charge. If you want to question a ruleing on mechanical, you may present it to the state board or at least a state inspector. Either one will listen to both parties. If your question is fire related you may take it to the state fire marshal. Normally the only party that is overseer to a building inspector is the mayor and the city council. They normally deal with non job performace in a complaint. They are to appoint a board of building professionals to hear the formal complaint . If the BI is with in the code guidelines in black and white then they have no options. I hope you understand that . You have to out right proove him at fault in his decision.
I reviewed lots of plans submitted . Normally after plan review notations are made in a letter directing the non code compliances. They are each listed with codes written under them as quotes under each item. When thats done , theres no argument. Compliance is expected and if need to be , demanded before construction may proceed or be at risk of losing utilities at that point and time . Later steps are condemment and an ordered eviction which I have never seen or heard of one go that far. Light and water ordered shut off is normally the last step. Then you have a right to be heard in a court of law, but you are fighting the ordinaces of that city which has normally adopted such and such building codes and their enforcement, youve got a hard road to hoe since they were prepared by a legal professional.
One mistake may be that someone thinks they can build as they wish since they are paying for it and own it. Not true when you build inside city limits that have building codes adopted. You must adhere to building codes in form of a building permit application. That documant is signed by the authoritive party responseble for such building. Once the permit application is approved and also signed by the BI , then you have a legal contract that is binding in a court of law.
Tim
I kept searching around and found some info on the web related to the ladder effect question I had.
It seems that if the railing top or handrail portion of the ####'y extends towards where one would be if on the deck/platform/stairs then it might be considered to be in compliance. The effect being that a small child, trying to climb up and over, would be impeded by such an arrangement and unable to continue the climb (unless they had enough strength to hang free and then swing over. . . . !)
I'd love to find an illustration with some dims on it, but could not.
I am still curious about your opinion on this and with regards to "at what angle does the rung no longer become a ladder?"
I suppose that if the rungs were like chevrons, then the angle would not matter bacause the bottom of the v could be a stepping point. . .
Hmm. . .rather than carrying around a 4" sphere to test a railing, maybe you should get a regulation kid and then toss some candy over the rail. . . .
"Hmm. . .rather than carrying around a 4" sphere to test a railing, maybe you should get a regulation kid and then toss some candy over the rail. . . ."would hate to see how you test for ADA compliance. :)
That one's easier - just conduct the inspections from a wheelchair and while wearing mittens.
Edit - and maybe some fogged up goggles. . . .
Edited 8/23/2005 10:18 pm ET by jhausch
I dont remember from just memory, buts its like 7 3/4 rise or 8 by 9 3/4 tread. Dont quote me. Well, you cant anyway because youre probably operating from a different code book. I do not like to do this unless Im reading it in black and white if I dont remember verse.
Tim
lastly, i'm not sure of exactly what 'the spirit of the code' is
Lindenboy, I think that statement above says a lot. I'm also fairly certain that as soon as you garner enough experience as an architect, as well as a craftsman, you will understand what the spirit of the code is and will professionally be able to draft plans that will actually comply. Until then grasshopper, keep your mind open.
Also, I'd like to clarify why I didn't find any beauty in the rail. I don't like curves in stairs or rails. Like I said, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
blue
ditto what draftguy said. I think you did a nice job especially as a novice at welding. I saw alot of cool stuff come out of the metal shop when I was at arch school. I encourage architects to build for themselves, hands on experience informs the design process. An architect who knows something about building will get more respect from the builders.
But if you post here you will get comments of all kinds and you can't and shouldn't filter that, have a thick skin and take it in stride.Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to the original poster.
Edited 8/22/2005 7:39 pm ET by TGNY
It looks really good and I can see both sides of the code compliance issue since we work on homes that fall under UBC, IRC and no code.
If we build a stair rail that doesn't pass an inspection we eat the cost of rebuilding/replacing it. That makes code compliance a significant issue. Of course communities enforce codes differently and what passes in one location won't in another (Larimer county would not pass the railing on final and would have the home's electric meter pulled after 30 days of non-compliance).
We also work on quirky vacation homes that, depending on location, aren't always governed by building codes. We'll get all sorts of requests for things that wouldn't normally meet code and they are often the most fun to work on. If someone wanted a railing just like you made I'd be glad to have one made up if the owners understood the relevant safety issues.
Cheers, Don
handrail situation has gotten out of hand
thought since the thread has already been hijacked by codifiers, will add a pix of my iron rail, code approved in 1971.
The grandkids love it, they put a 4" piece of foam on the hallway floor and jump off.
Their own house was built 1996, has the 4" rule. 2 YO climbed up the OUTSIDE of the railings, able to get his head between the 3.9 spacing at the top of the turned balisters, then was hanging there by his head - not hurt, but screamed a lot.
I think my 4 foot spacing is SAFER!!!
OTOH, do have some horizontal rails on the 2nd floor deck, have to alway;s chastize the little guys about climbing those, so maybe that is a good part of the code. BTW, never let the little guys out on the deck by themselves yet, and the older one is 8.
View Image
Edited 8/22/2005 10:17 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 8/22/2005 10:17 pm ET by junkhound
I just stopping by to say nice work! Also, I like dogs and I think that is a Weimaraner. Nice looking dog too! I have a Vizsla.
I just stopping by to say nice work! Also, I like dogs and I think that is a Weimaraner. Nice looking dog too! I have a Vizsla.
Yup! I checked Vizsla's out -- how cool. Never heard of them. I think after having a weim that we wouldn't want any other dog. But sometimes you don't have a choice -- they just come to you.
jj
"It depends on the situation..."
As a fellow arch (also slightly short of registration) and Cancer sign, I feel compelled to stand up with you. Nice rail, even better to see someone trying something different. Keep up the good work.
...
(you're in Indianapolis . . . Ball State grad? And I hope that dog ain't peein' in picture #1)
thanks. that's now 2 against 20.
yeah, i went to BSU. still stuck in indianapolis.
Fine work, indeed.
The Breaktimer formerly known as "Steve-O"
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Very, very, very cool. Don't worry about the code, if that was followed to the letter, no one would last 6 months in this profession.