I got called in to look at a job. I’d like to back out without submitting a fixed price bid, that is standard for this industry.
I’m looking for the right words to say, “This job is not a tar baby I want to get tangled in.”
The company that is paying does not really think they caused the damage.
They sent in a prior guy they use “because he’s inexpensive,” and he made a mess of what he did try. So his work has to be un-done, the damage he did re-done, and done to the homeowner’s satisfaction.
The homeowner thinks the repairs ought to be perfect and that is a goal that is not attainable with this type of damage and repair. I can see myself getting frustrated trying to please her.
The homeowner did not purchase additional coverage and there is simply no way this could have been repaired (even from the start) at the coverage limits in force.
Edited 8/10/2009 9:21 pm ET by byhammerandhand
Replies
You simply write a respectful letter that says thank you for the opportunity to bid the job, but unfortunately you are unable to offer a proposal at this time.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
When I was younger I tortured some of my competition by referring them for jobs like this. I'm too mature for that now but I have a delightful memory of running into one of them at the yard and him saying "gee thanks for all the referrals... I think."
Our local Green Building Counsel has been known to pass out warnings about particularly goofy / toxic clients making the rounds.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I'd probably be inclined to tell her
"The homeowner thinks the repairs ought to be perfect and that is a goal that is not attainable with this type of damage and repair. I can see myself getting frustrated trying to please her."
you really do not need to make excuses. just send a note to thank her for the consideration and tell her you will not be bidding the project.
dear mrs HO
thank you much for considering my company to service your home. at this time I cannot submit a proposal for the work as requested. please consider us for any future projects you have in mind
sincerely, yada yada
Never say no to any potential customer!
Here's why, let's assume that you would have to do all that you say is required and more.. Maybe she's learned her lesson and will pay it.. So you submit a bid at what you believe it will cost, worst case scenero.
Then if she hires you you can only do better than what you bid. (and look real good doing so) if she doesn't and she has another unsatisfactor result perhaps she will realize it and hire you to do the re-re-repair. <grin> either way you look good!
"Never say no to any potential customer!"Bad advice. There are many customers that should be avoided at all costs. No matter how the economy is doing. In fact, when times are tough, a bad customer hurts you far more than during boom times! The trick is figuring out which ones. Trust your intuition.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I'm with you and Warren Buffet whose rule #4 is: "You can't make a good deal with a bad person".
John,
I didn't say take the job. I said price the job so that you're sure that you can profit from it if they should decide to use you..
Those are two differant statements.. please reread the original..
If you tell a customer no you will never know what the repercussions are. Maybe you'll get a reputation for being difficult. Or tempermental. You may lose the oppertunity to bid on a project you very much want to do.. People do talk. The ideal situation is to have a price that the customer turns you down and later regrets doing that!
Just as there are ways to get people to say yes there are also ways to get people to say no.. Careful use of that little bit of knowledge will benefit you!
Do you ever risk getting a reputation for "gouging"?If three guys give prices around $10k, and the OP bids at $15k. Could he run the risk of appearing exorbitant and risk future referrals?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Not if she's as unhappy as it appears she's going to be..
The process will be something like this,, OK you are $5000 cheaper so I'll select you. Whine, whine, whine, complain, complain, and complain. Gee I really should have hired the more expensive guy!
"Yeh Betty look at this, and this, and this, I should have gone with ..........."
Excellant for your reputation.
"The process will be something like this,, OK you are $5000 cheaper so I'll select you. Whine, whine, whine, complain, complain, and complain. Gee I really should have hired the more expensive guy!
"Yeh Betty look at this, and this, and this, I should have gone with ...........""
You're assuming that a person who has proven to be difficult (and I'm would submit- illogical) will be overcome with the logical conclusion after the job is complete that the higher bid would have been a better choice.
I would suggest that there is a possibility that this difficult customer may not have the epiphany that you are anticipating they would come to at the end of the job.
Sometimes it's hard to come out of a situation like that smelling like a rose, whether or not you get the job.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
While that is possibly true it also supposes that people aren't capable of learning. I'll bet her next bids will be more expensive than her first bids.
Either way since you are more expensive and from what I read she's still not likely to be happy My feeling from what I've read is that you can't lose. First you'll not likely to get the job because you are significantly more expensive and second the extra money should provide you with the required hand holding through the deal if you do get it..
I suggest a daily approval check off. (should you get the job in spite of your high price)
You see it really comes down to psychology. Some people aren't happy until they spend the most, equating expense with quality. Others want to feel like they are in charge. In control..
"Either way since you are more expensive and from what I read she's still not likely to be happy My feeling from what I've read is that you can't lose."
I appreciate the positive outlook, I really do. I think it is important for a salesperson to be a finder of solutions not problems.
However, I wonder at what point a situation is worthy of walking away from? I'm sure you've had a customer in your past 35 years that would not be satisfied, am I right?
I wonder if, instead of the OP's scenario being a situation where you can't lose, it's a situation where he can't win?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
jon.... there are customers we don't want to work for... that is contracting 101one deal breaker is the customer's past experience with other contractorsor customers who happen to be lawyers and have a history of personal construction litigationbut the methods of maneuvering them are worth developing
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I'll pose the same question to you that I asked Frenchy.My guess is that you run the risk of smelling bad if you bid $15k for a $10k job, especially if they get four bids and your bid is the clear outlier.Do you think this a viable method, or would you handle it differently?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
Absolutely! I've had some real horror stories as you well know not everybody in the construction industry is worthy of credit. Yes I've also had impossible to make happy customers too. Ones I've regretted selling to.. In those cases since I sold the unit I deal with the problems.
If you walk away from a customers complaints they never keep it to themselves (do they?) The fact that 85% of my customers were referrals from other contractors indicates I kept most either happy (or at least satisfied enough to keep their complaints to themselves)
OOPs I didn't answer your final question, I'm sorry.
In a can't win situation, another words you can't overprice yourself out of the bid and the customer is willing to whatever terms you have, such as all cash up front, daily approval sign offs, impossibly long lead time, whatever!
Yet you still don't want the job, a conversation should lead you to a point where they will not agree. Heck it may be the requirement that your men get to park on their lawn or something..
It's always better to get them to turn you down than the reverse..
That sounds like a great plan. Get to be known as the contractor that requires that his guys can park on your lawn, or the guy that has such ridiculous requirements that customer would never agree them. Sounds like a good way to get a bad rep.
Tom:
Back up take a breath and please think.. I was asked if it was a real lose situation what can you do to say yes when you don't want the job..
The idea is that it is always better to get the customer to say no to you than you to say no to the customer..
You're saying that you massively overchrage the customer, demand cash payment in advance, have an impossibly long lead time, etc.. and you focus on the grass?
By the way that is normal around here. Yep! multi million dollar homes and they park on the lawn. The roads are narrow, street parking would likely block access and cause a lot of problems.. With every major remodel or tear down the lawn is torn up anyway so it's normal to tear up the lawn from parking and replant it when the work is done.. Sod is cheap, seed is even cheaper and a little time with a bobcat does a nice job of leveling off the ruts..
You know what? You're right Frenchy. You're technique is the best way to do it. You have converted me.Good job.
Now you're learning!
Frenchy converted me some time back. Has me convinced that because I'm in the highest tax bracket and a former CFP that I'm wrong on these things. Therefore, from this day forth,
When it comes to taxes and money, Frenchy speaks for me!
At least that's what he tells me. {G}
Why did you drink his """Koolaid"""???
It's like saying, "Yes, Dear, Whatever you say, Dear."
Like Andy Engel used to say, "Sometimes, the pig simply likes to roll in the mud..." or something to the effect.
You know who's right. We all know who's right. Pizzing in the wind doesn't make it go away.
I was gettin' scared there fer a minute!
Because he is following it with a chaser of fine scotch..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for all the responses. I replied in this way, plagiarizing from another thread here:Thank you for having me to your home to look at your furniture for repair. After considerable thought, I believe that we are not a good fit. Accordingly, I have decided to not submit an estimate for these repairs. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I believe it the best thing to do.---I also happen to believe that sometimes the most profitable jobs are the ones you don't do.I also believe that if she presses for why, "Don't ask a question for which you are not prepared to hear the answer."I did a short third-party job for a woman that was a paranoid-schizophrenic a few years ago. The contractor and I get a good laugh out of it when we talk. Harmless, but difficult to work with.Svenny, I'll have to look you up sometime. If all goes according to schedule, we might be retiring to NE Ohio in a few years. My daughter moved away and now wants us to move closer to her. It's also near where I grew up and have a little family left.
Here's one I used earlier in the year.Hi ####,Thank you for your recent email.After carefully reading through your attached renovation process, while we appreciate being considered as your possible contractor of choice for either the design and/or build phase, we are going to have to regretfully decline to continue to be involved in your vetting process.I wanted to let you know as soon as possible, to help you in your further decision making process, regarding both the design phase as well as the build phase.Again, thank you for your consideration, we wish you luck with your project and hope it turns out to be a beautiful and useful addition to your home.Sincerely,
Thank you for having me to your home to look at your furniture for repair. After considerable thought, I believe that we are not a good fit.
Hahaha! Lots of ways for the woman to interpret that remark, particularly if she has a sarcastic attitude. :-)
In frenchies line of work, he can make the sale and walk away happy.but we remodelors need to move in and live with the customer for a period of time, so compatibility is important
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
How wrong you are..
I'll ignore your ignorance for a bit in an attempt to help you out..
When confronted with a job you don't want, be smart! Never say no, let the customer say No to you..
That way if you are wrong and someone can do it you won't have a reputation for fickleness or difficulty.. And if it can't be done and the customer turned you down they will regret it while improving your reputation..
Just like chess you must think moves ahead to win..
'
Piffin,
How wrong you are..
Open questions to our moderators: How many times does this egomaniac get to insult people whose qualifications far surpass his, before you bounce him for good?
What use is it for any of us to spend time correcting his erroneous advice when it only serves to bring out another nonsensical rebuttal from him?
He's on the payroll
I say he should be thoroughly Shellaced!
Shellacked? Anyway, that stuff from bugs.
Edited 8/12/2009 10:45 pm ET by skipj
I say he should be thoroughly Shellaced!
Usually I'd be up for some side banter like you opened with. But I've lost my sense of humor about the guy.
Thanks for the smile anyway.
To cheer yourself up I'd suggest going over to the Gourmet magazine forum and presenting yourself as an ex-Hobart dishwasher salesman who once catered a successful family wedding in his backyard. Harangue the professional chefs on technique and offer ill-advised tips on running their restaurants based on your experience. Remember to only suggest items from your one time event menu regardless of they are appropriate to the occasion.
Best laugh of the day! Thanks!
Now I understand about the pokin' thingy!!!
sharpen your stick and poke him again, I wanta watch
You left your stick laying there and I just had to play with it...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Have at it dude!Sharpen the end up some!
hudson... i thought frenchie's advice was excellent..
maneuver the customer into saying no
and he's right that being the most expensive bidder only enhances your reputation... this not a race to the bottom frenchy is no egomaniac.... his selling techniques are usually spot onMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Looks like we're on opposite ends of this one.
I can't imagine spending hours, working up a bid for a client/job that I didn't want to deal with, not for any reason. And I see no reason to submit a high bid just to say yes when I mean no. Totally counter-intuitive and counterproductive, in my view.
I've dealt with enough PIA clients and jobs to feel it coming and make a graceful early exit. I believe that the OP's message to his client, posted earlier here, was just about perfect. Simple, honest, respectful.
I never wanted to have a reputation as being the highest bidder, not in my market. That's the kiss of death in a largely middleclass area. I can't imagine that it's a good reputation to have unless most of the potential clients are in the top 10% financially.
On the other hand, I've done a lot of jobs successfully for questionable or non-referral clients by settling on the ground rules before preparing a bid or signing the contract, then making those rules part of it.
That became SOP for me in my middleclass area. And it got me a reputation that I can live and work with.
BTW, I worked in direct sales for seveal years in my twenties. I was successful enough at it but it didn't provide any feeling of self worth. That's why I dropped it and took on carpentry. I didn't make nearly as much money this way but I know what my work is worth, in real terms, in my heart.
hudson..... if you charged for your Proposal , your time would be compensated
'nudder ting...... if you charge for your Proposal... this customer might go away without preparing anything.....
hmmmm.. maybe that's what the op should have doneMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Can't charge for proposals in a modest income market. That's why I came up with my method of talking about the ground rules at the end of the initial visit, before going home and writing a proposal.
That method brings out the control freeks and the poor payers, right away, allowing me to see where the potential problems are, then make a smiling exit.
When clients understand why I'm taking charge at that point and accept it gracefully, I know that they're going to be cooperative and easy to work with. And that they'll have my checks ready according to the contract.
For the most part, I've had excellent relations with homeowner clients...when I make it clear how I do business.
<<<<<Can't charge for proposals in a modest income market. >>>>
sure you can... and ... if you do get your fee, you've probably already got the job too
mostly it's fear of rejectionMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
<<<<<Can't charge for proposals in a modest income market. >>>>
sure you can... and ... if you do get your fee, you've probably already got the job too
mostly it's fear of rejection
Naw, mostly it's that no one has ever done it in my area.
Look, I can go out and look at a job, give a rough price range and see how that plays out. If that doesn't bring up the "deer in the headlights" look we move on to my description of how I do business.
It's a short monologue from me about taking charge of the work area and booting them out during working hours, giving the reasons why that's necessary. If they're comfortable with that I ask for questions, answer them, then ask them a few about financing the job, etc.
If we're still on the same page and there's some enthusiasm on their side, I give them a date when I'll be back with my complete proposal/contract. I can tell with reasonable certainty if I've got the job from how they respond to me, during that meeting.
So, the meeting/interview, as I conduct it, gives me more success than what I would get from charging a fee for making a proposal. I sell myself and my reputation first, price second or third. This method works well with middle class people like me. We connect easily this way.
The last difficult customer that I ran into was a guy with a ten page checklist with a list of minutia on it. Everything he asked for was rather reasonable but as we discussed each item, I realized that he was going to micro manage the entire process.
No one works well in an envioronment like that. He most assuredly would be the engineer, inspector and expert at everything and when it failed or leaked, it would be all my fault.
So, before I spent any serious time, I did a quick estimate, figured in my 67% markup on everything, then doubled the entire bid. I called him on the phone and told him that I had a "ballpark" but I wasn't going to spend any serious time figuring the estimate until he agreed that his budget was in the range of my ballpark. He politely told me that he didn't intend to spend anywhere near that amount of money and that I probably shouldn't spend the time doing a formal proposal.
Whew! If he would have accepted the doubled bid, I probably would have found another 25% in errors/upgrades LOL...anything to make him say no!
After that experience, I decided that I'd rather just tell him, in the initial discovery process that I don't work for anyone unless I think we are a good fit. I would take the blame and tell him that I have a quirky personality and I don't work well with everyone and that it's in his best interests if I exit now and not waste his time.
And...I DON'T CARE IF I GET A REPUTATION FOR BEING "DIFFICULT" lol.
And...I DON'T CARE IF I GET A REPUTATION FOR BEING "DIFFICULT" lol.
Roger that!
I started out doing small to medium sized renos, being very cooperative and amiable. With most people that was a good approach, for a rookie.
But, as I soon learned, my inexperience in business showed and certain types of people took advantage of that. It can be very depressing to get stuck on a difficult job with a bad client, worrying about getting paid when you're living hand to mouth. A few weeks of that is enough to make a person re-think how they relate to clients.
So I decided to eliminate each problem I'd encountered by taking charge in the beginning, telling potential clients how I worked and what their role would be on my job site. Of course I remained pleasant while explaining my conditions so as not to raise any flags or barriers.
Most people are happy to have a knowledgeable, skilled person take command of any unusual situation that comes up. Even experienced DIYers are willing to accept someone else's conditions when necessary.
It's only the control freaks and worry warts who object to being left out (kept out) of the daily work routine.
My presentation during the initial meeting brings out those personality traits very nicely. When someone objects strongly to being kept off the job site during working hours or being limited to one visit at a prescibed time it's a good sign that there will be problems ahead if I continue.
If someone wants to place difficult conditions in the contract, I discover that in the initial meeting as well...because I ask that question.
It's like being a cab driver, something I did for a few months. Some passengers are happy to get in back and let a knowledgeable professional handle the driving and the navigation. A few people want to tell the driver how to get from A to B. An even smaller number try to drive the car from the backseat.
So, like you, it doesn't bother me if a few people think I'm "difficult" or if some of my clients make jokes, saying that I'm not very sociable when working. I tell them what to expect up front, before writing a proposal.
The ones who understand the importance of hiring a dedicated professional are respectful and content with my conditions. Those are the people I want to work for so rather than hoping to avoid the difficult ones, I use the initial meeting to weed them out.
Edited 8/14/2009 12:11 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"hudson..... if you charged for your Proposal , your time would be compensated"Mike, that's great you live in a market where you can charge for a proposal. That's not the market in Akron, Ohio. I'm in a market where people get a minimum of 3 bids on the average. NO ONE will pay for a proposal here. You will not starve if you charge for proposals here, you will die of thirst. You won't get the opportunity to bid one job. It's very pie-in-the-sky to say it's up to people like me to change that, but that's like one man pushing a 10 ton granite block up a 10% grade. It's not going to happen. Not in my lifetime.You said:" 'nudder ting...... if you charge for your Proposal... this customer might go away without preparing anything....."That's funny! Every customer would go away without preparing anything. I wouldn't have to do a darn thing while my business shriveled up and died, except tell my customers the proposal will cost you $100, or $75, or "We're running a special this week-proposals only $50! Hurry, limited time only!"I know you do it in Rhode Island, but Akron, Ohio is not nestled in between Connecticut and Cape Cod.Also, why would I waste a minute preparing a proposal for someone I had no intention of working for, even if it provided a nominal fee? There is no downside to a courteous letter. Inflating a bid has a risk of insulting the customer, and very little chance that it enhances your reputation in any way.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
bs...
first things first
in this case the op could have met with the customer... got a read on the situation...
then said....
" yes !... for this type of job we get paid to prepare a proposal... what you are describing will have a fee of $500.... and we don't refund the money if we get the job"if the customer bit.... then you have $500 to prepare the proposal and figure out how to make some moneynow lets take your case... and hudson valley'syou've never been paid to do consulting work ?
you've never been paid to do design work ?how many years have you been in business for yourself , svenny ?
me....35 years on my own .... and 6 years in construction before that... and 4 years in the army before thati know things that others don't knowso do youyour experience and reputation are worth somethingthere are plenty of people....middle class... or upper class that value your knowledge and reputation...yet you price yourself in the market at the same value as the kid who just fell off the turnip truck
you have lots of tools... some get used all the time... soe get used only for special jobscharging for a proposal should be one of your tools..... and you should learn to recognixe when you pull out that tool and use itand don't forget......... i know this to be true....if you can sell the proposal.....99% of the time.... you've already sold the job.... and all the angst that goes with bidding is gonethere will be no other bidders
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You can call BS if you like.I'm just telling you like it is.Getting paid to design is not the same as getting paid to bid. I have designed additions for a fee, and if you want call that being paid to bid, OK. Most homes I have built, have had the design prepared already. One home I actually drew the plans from the customers sketches, and was paid to prepare the drawings. But I don't consider this being paid to bid.But most of my jobs don't require drawings or designs. Even decks, which do require drawings, are prepared for free at the local lumber yard. This is common knowledge. Few are willing to pay for such a service. And even if they are, that's still being paid for designing, not for preparing a bid. The local BBB, articles in the local paper,(and national magazines), television reports educating consumers, all strongly recommend getting at least three bids for home improvements. That's not something that is easily overcome.Gotta say it again-getting paid to design is not the same thing as getting paid to bid.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
hey, u stubborn old swede.... i never said it was
what i said was...
charging to prepare a proposal is just another option... one that you could use when the occasion presents itself.... and it will.... and it has.... but you were not prepared to use itdo you think i use it for every job ?....well , i don't... but it has saved me many times in the past and will in the futureand i'm not talking about design... that is separate... i always get paid for design... and my lumber yard also offers that servicehere's two examples : one job i prepared a bid to gut and remodel a large victorian .... i spent well over 50 hours ... after i submitted ... they decided not to go ahead... sold the house and built a new one....with someone else... i got nothing for my troublesanother house... was a tear-down and new construction... very extensive plans... i told them $3k to prepare the proposal.... they thought about it..... and sold that house... the project never got done.... but i only lost two hours on that onenow... the "get three bids " arguement....how many of your customers follow that advise.... in my case.... very close to zero... and the ones that do... don't stop at 3.... they have them lined up on the sidewalk.... i politely tell them they have enough bidsjust think of this svenny..... if you can sell a proposal for a major house remodel for say $1000..... what do you think your chances are of winning that job.... and even if they do get another bid ( which they won't ).... what value will they assign to the other one?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The last time I did a free estimate was probably about 12 years ago.They talked up front like I already had the job and they just wanted an idea of how much this addition would cost. I spent a couple hours with them, a couple hours with the architect ( who was very impressed with me) and a day or so on the estimate work, altogether about two days of my lifeAfter I presented the price - $55,000, they said the would get back to me. A week later, they called to let me know that I had lost the BID to someone else.I learned from that one that people don't know the difference between a bid and an estimate, and that people don't always tell the truth. Had I known up front that they were entertaining bids I would have not bothered because I don't do firm bids on additions. Had I known who was bidding against me I would not have bothered because his men made a lot less than mine and they were far less qualified. His work showed in quality and cost time after time so I would have known that he would have the cheaper price.
or I could have spent some time selling my quality, something I thought they were already aware of.Since they were in the end, looking for the cheapest price and I never compete in that arena, a lot of time could have been saved by charging for my proposal. They would have told me no, or it would have opened the door for selling the work.Incidentally, The other 'bid' was for $50K but the job ended up costing them over $60K, the other contractor had a hard time collecting his last couple payments and everyone was unhappy all around.Most guys here still do free estimates here but when I decided not to do that anymore, I have never met a bit of resistence. We do have some high end customers but also have plenty of po'folks.Yesterday PM, I met with a couple who are upper middle class, owning one of the smallest cheapest second homes here on the island.I will be making $2500 to 3000 for the planning stage before they decide if they want to actually do the job. They kept asking how much will it cost. I kept herding that question back around that circle to "What do you want to accomplish?" and "let's work together to find a way to do that in a way you can afford" After an hour, I had a good idea of the goals and budget and got home in time to wrap myself around three steaming lobsters
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can apologize any time now, dude.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was hoping you'd jump in Mike,
I've never refused a customer,I have only one requirement,their money has to be green.
looney, picky,difficult,I'm always confident I can out last them.
I've even worked for neo cons,they're the worst :)
Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
Edited 8/13/2009 5:02 pm ET by VinceCarbone
Piffin,Don't argue with the factsFrenchy said never say noWe just have to accept that that is the way it isWith his vast experience in our field he must knowSo I am accepting it and you should also
Sorry, but frenchy is right.Piffin should say "Yes, I will not do the job."See he never has to say no..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Ah man!Now ya'll got me totally cunfused
Bill
Read what I suggested.
One of the sweetest things I found on this website is the "ignore" feature.
It's really nice to come by now and again to read what normal people have to say...
Simply put the abnormal ones on "ignore."
I believe it t'were you that originally suggested it. Thanks.
You are so hung on your own words that you apparently have not read what OI wrote in this thread. my advice was very close to yours, but you are trying to argue with me and insult me over it.That makes you the fickle ignorant one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
On your advice I went back and carefully read what he wrote. I stand by my recommendation exactly.
Say no by saying yes..
Example. Yes I'll work in your salt mine for $100,000 a week payable in advance........
I know that's extreme but I'm trying to make a point..
As for my statement to you. It was not intended as an insult. Ignorance is not stupidity. I'm ignorant about nuclear physics. Other things. How many years have you sold telehandlers to contractors?
If you had you'd know that contractors need as much handholding for a longer period of time than home owners do.. The sale is harder because it represents $90,000 of their income payable over a 5 to 9 year period.. It's a tool! Not a fancy truck they get to show off to family and friends. Or a place to live and show off to family and friends.
Mind you I am not telling you how to build something which you'd have a reasonable objection to because of my inexperiance.. I'm helping you do something none of you do professionally.
Now why should you say yes when you want to say no?
Simple! No has all sorts of negative connotations. Yes is friendly. Yes I'll do that for twice what you want to spend is effectively the same as no but it is a much more friendly way to say no.. (they are many other up sides as well)
You still did not read what I said, because I had the same recommendatron but in different words.So you are calling me ignorant when you can't understand simple english
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
You asked me to reread the OP I did that..
I will also reread what you said.
However I suggest that you reread what I wrote too please.
If you do you'll note that I was referring to your lack of knowledge of selling equipment.
You made a bunch of erroneous comments which at first I didn't correct because it wasn't germane to the topic.
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OK I went back and I reread what you said and I still don't believe you got to the heart of the OP's question.. Your answer was about payment. My answer was about effective ways rejecting the job while benefitting.
Later on you made a comment to Svenny about my sales experiance. That is what I called Ignorant..
You are.. you assume you know how to sell to contractors. Your comments shows your ignorance of the subject, however like I said I chose to ignore it at first and commented on the matter at hand rather than get diverted..
Edited 8/13/2009 10:03 am ET by frenchy
"You asked me to reread the OP "LOL, No I did NOT. I said to re-read the THREAD to see what *I* had written.There is a thread on BT about improving your reading comprehension if you care to improve yours. Meanwhile you are entertaining as all get out!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin;
Please take a moment ,
take a deep breath,
Go back and read your thread.. 123262.41
You said "read what the OI said. Now with the P right next to I on a typewrtter I assumed you simply misstyped.. One thing for certain you did not say to read what you had said.
Piffin,A phrase comes to mind while reading this thread,To best a fool, gains you nothing.Of all the threads that I've read, past and present, it seems that Frenchy has a thing for drawing fire on himself. He seems to thrive on the negative attention he gets. And the more there are to argue with him, the more he feeds off of it, and he eggs it on even more.
Is that close?
I almost feel guilty, like I've been poking a dog in a cage with a sharp stick
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know, I know!
Frenchy, you obviously have never sold and built remodeling services in the residential field. Your advice is just plain wrong.
Its not uncommon to find people that are too finicky and arrogant and demeaning and etc, to work for. Its okay to say no to these types of people even if it gets you a reputation. I'd rather have a reputation for saying no to these types of clients because maybe I'd waste less time with them.
Blue;
Like many others you misread what I posted.. I did not say you couldn't turn the job down.. what I said is it's important how you do it..
Say no by saying yes means that you do something in your bid to make sure you don't get the job. The most common way is massively over pricing.. A job that should cost $10,000 to do you price at $15,000. Then when the next contractor doesn't make them happy they wish they had spent the $15,000 and your reputation soars!
If you just say no then it's easy for you to get a reputation for being difficult to work with. Another words nothing good will come out of not being selected.. If you don't want the job make them feel like they rejected you.
You'll gain..
I never feel like I need to misrepresent myself in order to decline a job. most of the time a simple no thank you will do. if pressed by the client under any circumstance I could say the project is not a good fit for my business
giving out escalated proposals does more to hurt your reputation than plain honesty does
You are aware that there is a hierarchy in construction aren't you? Those at the very top usually are busy no matter how poor the economy. To get to the top you need to take steps like I outlined..
Saying no get's you nothing and may cost you something.. (you may get a reputation for being difficult or finicky)
If you know for a fact that this person will be unhappy no matter what you can use that fact to improve a reputation..
well, maybe you are not aware, I am busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. today I am lucky enough to have a rain out so I can get some billing done
I dont care for your approach. I hate to rub salt in your eye but look where its left you
Maverick,
My approach has not left me unemployed. A ruined economy and destroyed industry has left me among the hundreds of thousands of victims.. While I am willing to start over from scratch I've yet to find an employer willing to hire a 61 year old beginner.. Not when a single help wanted ad can easily gather more than a 1000 resumes..
The company I worked for laid me off and 7 others leaving only the close childhood friend and neighbor of the boss still employed.. (and that only because he had saved enough in his cafeteria account to recieve a paycheck for another few years)
Life isn't fair sometimes. The fact that I continue to search daily for employment indicates that I haven't given up.
Edited 8/13/2009 3:51 pm ET by frenchy
Something don't fit here!>>>"I've yet to find an employer willing to hire a 61 year old beginner."<<<
123262.68 of this thread>>>"I've been selling professionally for 45 years, and as a kid for another 10 years.. "<<<
123262.43 of this thread>>>"Having served 2 tours in combat"<<<
121203.127 from the 'more domestic terrorism' (You were telling me of your military experience)Okay math time Frenchy!You claim 55 years sales experience total, (45+10=55)
Next you claim to be 61 years old, 61-55=6If you served in Nam 2 tours at 2yrs each? If so 2+2=4Even if you were a salesman during your 2 tours of combat,......WTF?I'm afraid my B.S. Meter would explode if I broke it out this time!!!Now 'splain yer way outta dis one Frenchy!!!
Plumber bob,
Yes I started selling at age 5. I went door to door selling magazine subscriptions, seeds, Garden grown vegetables, Christmas trees, and even later yard work services.. On top of that my father and grandfather both were full time professional salesmen..
I've nearly 20 years selling experience selling telehandlers.. before that I sold other forklifts for another 12 years.. I've sold Cars trucks and motorhomes. I sold frozen sandwiches and TBA as well.
However companies looking to hire people want young starters.. few have any openings for experienced salesmen. The few that do can easily get 1000 resumes or more. That means they can select candidates with experience and a customer base for those few positions that may open up due to retirement where they don't promote from within. .
That makes me a 61 year old starter.. Sort of like you hiring a 61 year old laborer when there are hundreds of young guys anxious to work.
My first tour was on board the Bennington my second tour was on board the Ticonderoga. (both CVA's) I did a total of 9 years in the Navy, 7 active and 2 reserve. #I think there is someplace where you can confirm that) Navy tours in the Tonkin Gulf were about 9 months. The reason is that we lost 1/2 of our planes on the first tour and expected a similar loss the second tour.. If you are familar with flying combat you know that you'll never get 100% of the planes on board available to fly.. maintenance, repairs and overhauls seldom allow more than 70% availability and usually less than 50%.
Both the Ticonderoga and the Bennington were old WW2 Essex class carriers. Maintenance on those old ships was pretty intense and a year at sea was pretty much about what you could get without a yard overhaul. Now if you want real boredom I'll tell you every training school I attended, every training squadron I was assigned, to exactly my length of tour at various assignments etc..
See your BS meter is based on a lack of information. In the future just ask. I'll gladly share and then you won't look so foolish..
Edited 8/13/2009 7:03 pm ET by frenchy
Let's look beyond the erroneous distractive comments.So the original math has changed!
Now you claim 7 years active duty
And I'll combine the 45+10 years sales experience into just 45 years total.
now 45+7=52
61-52=9Again,.....WTF???
Quit trying to drum up a long winded come back!
Deal with the math!!!
Please don't tell me this is how you read instructions..
I covered everything in my last statement.
I'll start with dates and a time line so you can see exactly what I did with my life..
Born 1948
1953 started selling door to door, (also went to school and did household chores)
1967 entered the US Navy.
1968 joined VS38 on the Bennington in the Gulf of Tonkin
1969 returned from first tour
1970 returned to Tonkin Gulf on The Ticoderoga
1971 returned from Tonkin Gulf
1974 completed active duty Returned to civilian life
1976 started reserve duty
1978 completed my tour as a reservist
1979 started selling forklifts
1989 started selling telehandlers
Please note I sold either full or part time most of my life.. (even while in the service. I sold TBA at the Goodyear dealer in San Diego from the time I returned to San Diego from Flight training
Okay, next question why are you claiming to have all the expert knowledge and yet you are jobless? With all your self proclaimed qualifications, and wisdom, jobs should be jumping at you!
20 years selling tlehandlers to the contruction industry and the construction industry was virtually destroyed. Out of the over 4500 netwrk contact only 4remain in the industry and they are barely squeeking by.
With so many fellow sales people out of work from the construction industry, housing sales, and the autosales industry a single help wanted add gets over 1000 replys very quickly.
The fact that I'm here every single day looking for work should indicate to you that I haven't given up..
You have to admire my persistance, 2 years and still looking diligently.
ps the head hunters I've tried tell me much the same..
I am not in construction but have sold for many years. I've gotten to the point that I can pretty much tell early on if a prospective client will be trouble. I try to walk away but as a business guy I am always up for some $$. But when I ignore my nose and take the work on it always comes back to bite me. Ain't no contract good enough to protect. Even if I finally get paid, and I usually do, it's not worth all the extra time and aggravation.
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Short story. Non-profit wasn't paying my bill of 15K. No beef, just wasn't paying. Went on line to see a copy of their 990 tax return and got the names of the board of directors. Wrote each on a letter explaining the situation. Had a check in a few days. Thought that was a pretty smart move.
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Anyway, I think you're nuts.
Todd:
You like many others assume the wrong thing.. It's not about accepting any job.
I accept there are jobs you don't want.
In those cases get the customer to say no to you rather than you say no to the customer..
It's how you win in a losing situation..
<<Say no by saying yes means that you do something in your bid to make sure you don't get the job. The most common way is massively over pricing.. A job that should cost $10,000 to do you price at $15,000. Then when the next contractor doesn't make them happy they wish they had spent the $15,000 and your reputation soars!>>>
and if the next guy does a job that they love or are at least satisfied with at the $10,000, you get the reputation as a theif or gouger...much more difficult to overcome than a reputation for being difficult.
Will you sell me a brand-new working telehandler for $5.00? Yes or no.
Yes, I'll gladly sell you one for $5.00 an hour.. plus delivery,insurance, and required maintince agreement. Minimum monthly hours would be 400 a month.
Or yes for $5.00 down and a monthly payment of $2000.00. plus delievery and pickup, insurance, and monthly maintinance fee.
"If you just say no then it's easy for you to get a reputation for being difficult to work with"
Someone already pointed out that you might get a reputation for being overpriced.
So, if we follow your logic, then we have to choose to have a reputation for being difficult to work with, or overpriced.
I'm not buying into either argument. The circle I'm selling in is far too wide for me to worry about either. When I smell a rat, I'm leaving.
I have used your technique to price something high enough to compensate if I got it. I was actually scared that the guy might take it but I also needed the work. I probably would have jumped off a bridge if the guy hired us because I know better than to wander into that type of contract. I've learned that lesson at least ten times but I'm hard headed, like you.
Lets just agree that neither of us should use the word "never". So, when you say, "never say no to a customer", we can agree that you should not say "never". There are some customers that you ALWAYS SHOULD SAY NO TOO!
Piffin,How right you are. I knew my reply would get the response it did. It's amazing how someone who's unemployed and has no income (by his own admission) can tell others (who are operating a profitable business BTW), how ignorant they are.Talk truly is cheap.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
John.
Sales is part of, indeed a major part of any business.. Learning how to do things effectively should b your goal not to isnsit that you are right.
"Learning how to do things effectively should b your goal not to isnsit that you are right."So you subscribe to the "Do as I say not as I do" school of instruction?John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
If someone offered to sell you a nail gun when you first started out would you have insisted that your hammer was cheaper?
There are things you learn.. either from experiance (which is a very expensive teacher) from others, or by reading about it..
You can say no while saying yes! and like I said that can provide you with a greater benefit than simply saying no..
You can say no while saying yes!
ouch, my ears hurt
"If someone offered to sell you a nail gun when you first started out would you have insisted that your hammer was cheaper?"Now you're just rambling. That statement has no bearing on this topic.You act like none of us has any experience with sales, as if we are the uninformed masses. I have been in business for myself for 35 years. Every job I got I had to sell. I have read scores of books on sales strategies, and managing a small business. There wasn't a single book that proposed what you propose-"Never say no to any potential customer" In fact-most books have entire chapters on weeding out and avoiding bad customers. It's called qualifying your customer. There are dozens of reasons not to pursue certain customers. Financial, ethical, psychological, legal, emotional, lawyers get wealthy dealing with the after effects of parties that should have never done business with each other. But in Frenchy's world that means nothing-Frenchy made a statement; ergo it can't be wrong.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
John
You can say no while saying yes..
Yes I'll do that job. for twice what it should cost. (that last part is unsaid) Yes I'll work in a salt mine for $100,000 a week payable in advance.
And no, The nail gun analogy isn't off the mark. I'm not sure who does it but one of the regulars post's as a tag line, "One person may read about it, some may learn from others, but the rest just have to piss on the electric fence to learn"..
I've been selling professionally for 45 years, and as a kid for another 10 years.. What I did for the past 20 years is take people like you, skeptics and sell them $90.000.00 nail guns (telehandlers)
There is a great deal of herd mentality in your profession.. The first nail guns were not well accepted.. today almost nobody would build a house without one.. Same with Telehandlers. Same with almost any new concept..
Let me ask you one final question..
Do you have the best/highest reputation in your area? (is that your opinion or the opinion of your customers..)
Quoting frenchy:
"Learning how to do things effectively should b your goal not to isnsit that you are right."
The emphasis is mine, but anybody else see the irony here?
Frenchy, you make a lot of valid points, but you need to lighten up.
Yeh, It's difficult when you're trying to help and others make fun or take part of what you're saying and distort it..
You're right, I should have a funny way to say the same thing in order to lighten it up.
dont say no to any potential customer?
thats just BS.
that kind of thinking will put a man out of business at worst and make his life miserable in the least
There are ways to say no while saying yes.
Learn them and it can be a powerful improvement in your reputation..
I would make my contract directly with the HO and tell them they have to deal with the payee for collection - that I must be paid by them, the HO, in full under my normal terms. Their problem with another party is none of my concern, I want to focus on doing the job right, not getting in the middle of a squabble.
They can accept on my terms or continue on the road they are following
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 8/11/2009 10:52 am ET by Piffin
I would explain why you do not want the job and leave it at that. Years ago I should have taken my own advice, instead I just doubled my bid. I got the job,tried to sub the entire thing out. No one I knew was dumb enough to take it. I did work for a woman that was known to be eccentric. Eccentric is a nice word for loony tune. I had to renovate four rooms downstairs and replace the basement stairs. I had the electrican quit, two carpenters and the slaters all quit. This woman made the potty mouthed chef Gordan Ramsey sound like an altar boy. She called the cops on the electrician for smoking a cigarette,he was sitting in his truck in her driveway. No one smoked in her home. I could go on but I get sick thinking about that job.
Your potential customer may not be nuts, but may drive you there.
mike
There is no problem with no. Some times that is the only answer that makes sense. Let the competition lose money there.
As OP, if anyone thinks this is too good of a deal to pass up, I'd be happy to refer you along. Good upper-middle class to upper-class suburb of Cincinnati. "Just your basic broken chair arm and a few burn-in repairs." Shouldn't take more than a couple of hours. Oh, work has to be done between 8:30 and 9:00 am or after 6:00 pm or taken offsite and returned because client can't take off work. She also has some additional work in her downtown office that you can schedule on normal business hours, but I'd suggest avoiding a day when there is a home baseball game as the office is three blocks from the stadium and parking is both at a premium and scarce.