No clothes Dryer, But a Dishwasher??
All
This has bugged me since the last houses issue came about 6 weeks ago. In the article Power House http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Protected/021203082.pdf
The article states ” In keeping with the net-zero goal, the house incorporates many energy saving appliances … including a Bosch dishwasher ….. The HOs do not own a clothes dryer and instead have opted for a clothes line … and an indoor drying rack.”.
The floor plan shows a Master bedroom and a guest bedroom, so I assume they don’t have children in the house and the home is occupied by 2 people.
I have lived my entire adult life without a DW and it seems to me to be a huge energy and time wasting appliance. If a clothes dryer is considered a energy wasting appliance, then why is a DW so essential?
DWife and I can do a meal’s (for 4) worth of dishes in about 5-10 minutes with one sink of dishwater. A DWasher will run for about an hour and and the water will be super heated to boot.
Am I so out of it that a DW is considered essential to daily living anymore?
Rich
Replies
All
The photovoltaics is another issue. The system cost $45,000 after rebates. They are still hooked to the grid (read minumum charge every month) and the system provides all the home's electric need and they sell the excess back to the utility at 6 cents / KW.
They estimate that over 20 years they will sell $9000 of electricity back. That still leaves a system that cost $34,000. I probably pay $100 a month in electric bills to run a house with four people, standard appliances and lights and AC. Plus the shop and it's tools.
I see older homes in town for sale with average utilites (Electric and gas) of $100-$150 so I am confident that other people with less demand can get by for 1/2 of what I pay.
So $34,000 divided by $1,200 a year equals a 28 year payback period.
In my mind the photvoltaics is just not economically viable yet.
Rich
All
So everyone must agree that the PV system is just a green way to feel good about saving the plant?
Don't get me wrong. I would really like to have one. They just don't make sense economically.
I think the best use of solar at this time is for heating of domestic water.
Rich
Photovoltaics don't make sense for me. I ran a calculation on the internet for the estimated cost of a system for my home. My average electrical load is about 0.5 kW. For a system that size the estimated complete cost would be about $14,000, which, with potential rebates would be several thousand dollars less. But my entire annual electric bill is $600, so the payback would be 10 to 20 years.
I could spend that same $7,000 to $14,000 on other energy savings and have greater energy reduction, or invest in equities of companies that produce products that reduce energy usage, and have a greater impact.
But, in other parts of the country the economics would be different. Areas that have higher solar gain and higher electrical costs, for instance, or a home that is heated with a heat pump rather than a fuel. So I can't agree that is is just a feel-good exercise for everyone.
I saw that harbor freight is now selling a PV panel.Yes, they're still expensive. As more people buy them and older energy methods increase in cost (both $$ and environmentally speaking), demand goes up, price goes down.On an individual budget/cost level, right now, it may not make sense for most people. But some people might be looking beyond that and/or just happen to have the money to splurge on such things.
Rich,
I bet that you use more water washing the dishes after one meal than the dishwasher does doing a full load of a days dishes, pots and pans. It has got to save money if you use it properly. Ours gets run once a day right before we go to bed.
I remember washing dishes in the sink when we were kids and I can assure you I used way more water doing it that way :)
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Bill
Thanks for the reply.
I just don't see it that way.
I have opened DW after a cycle and the unit is extremely hot. The unit has got to use alot of energy above and beyond the cost of running the regular WH.
My mother rinses all her dishes (read almost washes them) before she puts them in in the DW.
We use about 5 gal of water to dishes per meal. One sink full.
I just what you are saying is that I am so out of it with the modern world without a DW. LOL I don't know of many people who live without a DW. Even as a landlord alot of people act suprised if a unit does not have a DW.
Rich
We have a new Bosch which uses very little water -- I doubt that it's more than 5 gallons for a total cycle, and that's several meals' worth of dishes. No pre-rinsing required -- just scrape the dishes well and put them in the washer. The unit is very well insulated and requires relatively little heat over and above the hot water.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
My wife and I have hand washed dishes for 30 years now. (I exaggerate-30 years in a week and a half) We have raised 3 sons.She won't sacrifice any cupboard space to put in one.I agree-it's easy, and when you factor in electric costs I'm sure the net savings is substantial. Plus in thirty years I would probably be due for my third DW ( as in dishwasher-not Dear Wife!) John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Svenny
I am afraid the court of kitchen opinion is against us.
Rich
Some people enjoy washing dishes (I'm not one of them). And a dishwasher certainly takes up some cabinet space. And I would guess that you're right about being on your third dishwasher by now. And some of those from 30 years ago didn't do all that great of a job and could leak. So in your situation, I'm thinking you made the right choice in not getting one.
But for those of us who don't like washing dishes, the efficient dishwashers aren't too bad. They do a nice job and don't use much water/energy. An Energy Star Bosch for example can have an annual 'operating cost' of $20-25 depending on whether you heat your water via electricity or nat. gas (based on 4 loads per week). And as others have pointed out, an efficient dishwasher uses less water than most folks use to wash dishes by hand.
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
An efficient dishwasher will likely use less energy and water than is required for hand washing.
Bosch makes really nice dishwashers. The water is super-heated, but there also is no heated dry cycle.
But, to answer your question, I think it's just a personal choice. If I lived in a relatively dry/warm climate with a washer next to the door, I'd probably really enjoy drying most of my laundry outside. I rarely enjoy doing dishes. But that's just me.
I consider a dishwasher an almost necessity. Before I hooked one up, I procrastinated until I was out of clean dishes and the kitchen was an absolute disaster.
If you are careful how you wash dishes, you probably can be more efficient than a DW, but most people are not careful. I bet over half the people in this country would think it is entirely too much work to turn off the rinse water between items. Instead, they will let the water run for 15 minutes straight while they wash dishes and clean up. A DW will be much more efficient than that.
Even though the DW uses probably somewhat more energy than I would use doing the dishes by, I consider it an excellent way to get myself out of the kitchen sooner.
This has been looked into by experts. They say that a dishwasher uses less water than hand washing. I think if you plug your sink and measure the water you use for washing and rinsing you'll find that it would be true in a side by side comparison.
I'm sure the comparison assumes a full load in the dishwasher, which, if hand washed, would use quite a lot of water. And it would be several meals for a couple.
The dishwasher uses hot water from the home water heater. It can be set to boost the heat further for really dirty dishes or for sanitizing, however, for normal washing the boost is not needed. Hand washing uses hot water, too, since few people are comfortable washing and rinsing in straight cold water. (I live in the North, and the tap water is cold enough to cause cramps if the hands are rinsed with it for more than a minute or two.)
Bosch, by the way, is a brand noted for being on the low side of water usage, as well.
So a dishwasher is actually an environmentally sound choice.
No, a dishwasher isn't required for daily living. But for us folks who don't like to wash dishes, they're a god send! Dishwashers and air conditioning are two of my favorite inventions.
As per the energy use... an Energy Star Bosch for example can have an annual operating cost of $20-25 (based on 4 loads per week and depending on whether you heat water via electric or nat gas). I don't know the exact gallons of water used, but have read articles that say it is less than washing by hand.
In comparison, I'm not even sure if there is such a thing as an Energy Star clothes dryer. Granted, you could add a moisture sensor to turn it off sooner, but otherwise it is an energy hog.
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you.
-- Carl Sandburg
In my opinion, PVs are installed more for "bragging rights." At today's costs, the $'s just don't work out.
As for dishwashers, hand washing wastes too much water and time. Consider a commercial dishwasher (under counter). A full load of dishes will take about 2 minutes total, does not require a drying cycle (since the dishes are so hot they self dry), and a load uses less than a gallon of water. Restaurants don't dry the dishes but remove them immediately from the dishwasher.
Different strokes for different folks.
speaking of floor plans... why don't they show an energy efficient house that will house a family with 3 kids (4 bedrooms) These 2 bedroom houses fit science fiction reading more than they do reality in my world.
You are not out of it at all. After reading your post I turned off the water to the dishwasher and unplugged it. The dryer is going next,soon as I plant a couple of poles and string a line. I may leave the dryer in place as the cat likes to sleep on it.
Am thinking about getting rid of the gasoline lawnmower and getting one of them reel types I used to push when I was a kid.The lawn is less than 3/4 of an acre and the wife could use the excercise.
Thanks Rich, you got me going green now.
mike
mike
I am glad that I helped you to get out of your gas guzzling SUV and to get a better cut with your new rotary lawn mower.
Go Big Green.
Seriously I do know a guy in town who uses a rotary mower by choice, he claims it has a nicer cut.
Rich
I agree with the guy that a reel mower gives you a better cut. Had to rehook up the dishwasher,wife threatened to cut something off if I didn't.Not sure exactly what she meant, but I'm not taking any chances.
mike
Admit it, she really threatened to take away your remote.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Ok, I fibbed just a little.
mike
I'm thinking that when you were a kid your parents didn't rent you out for slave labor to a golf course owner.
Every summer, my brother and I push mowed 27 really, really big green patches a day (minus the tiny little holes that the fat white men with swinging sticks tried to stuff their balls in), bagged and hauled the clipplings for his stinkin' chickens and spent our free time until sundown sharpening reels. Crazy, that whole episode.
Push mowers suck. I shoot and burn the things whenever I come across one.
The Energy Star website claims that, compared to hand-washing, a DW that qualifies for their rating will save you 5000 gal. of water a year, $40 in energy, and 230 hrs of your time.
The gummit said it: it's got to be true. :)
My wife is probably a pretty fair gauge on the issues that have been raised in this thread. She hangs our washing on the outside line (even in winter), mows the lawn with a reel-type push-mower, but insists on having a dishwasher. Yeah, that's right, I try to spoil her every chance I get--I even bought her a pair of insulated slip-on winter boots so she can be comfortable on cold winter mornings when she starts my truck, scrapes my windshield and shovels the walk.
Don't tell her, but, for this winter I'm thinking of buying her a nice headlamp for those dark, cold winter mornings. Any recommendations?
> Any recommendations?Insulate the doghouse.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I was the dishwasher for four years of marriage. I got pretty tired of it.
We moved to an old house with an ancient dishwasher. It soon died. I said "Oh honey, I'll wash the dishes until we get a new one."
Yeah - I didn't wash a single dish until I installed the new machine.
A guy visits his eccentric bachelor uncle. At breakfast he notices some dried egg on his plate when setting the table. His uncle says,
"That's as clean as coldwater can get those plates."
At lunch he notices some dried food on his glass.
"It's as clean as coldwater can get it."
A large slobbering shaggy dog walks in the living room after lunch and gets on the couch.
DANGIT COLDWATER GET OFF THE COUCH!!!
Now that's being green.
Btw-we don't own a dog or dishwasher.
Where I live the util. co. will only pay 3 cents a KW. Looks to me like it makes alternate energy hard to pay for.
I did visit an off grid family who didn't have much income once. They made it work by cutting their energy needs to the bone and scheduling some tasks around when the wind and solar power were the most available.
Craig
DANGIT COLDWATER GET OFF THE COUCH!!!
Now that's being green.
ROFLOL
Rich