I busted into my bathroom walls last night (with my new Heavy Duty Dewalt Cutting Tool!) and took one wall totally down to the studs. Well … actually, to the clean, see-through lathe. It is the ‘water wall’ on the side of it that’s over the tub, and I’m going to put in completely new plumbing .. then add a SORELY needed exhaust fan.
One of the reason’t I took out the whole wall is that I’m doing some second floor dormer addition work and have come to see that I need to be sure that there’s a HEADER over the first floor bathroom window. So … I remove everything but the wood and the window itself and, voila! .. NO HEADER!!! So … I don’t get it. This is a remarkably carefully built house … 1925 craftsman bungalow. Very popular and ‘sought after’ in these parts and reputedly very well built. Weren’t they building in headers in 1925?
Maybe … MAYbe .. there’s a narrow .. shallow, actually .. header running directly across the top of the window immediately on top of it down under the molding … but not NEARLY beefy enough by todays standard IF it’s there at all. So now I gotta get totally into the wall and ‘build-in’ a header to take the weight I’ll be feeding down over the window … I’ll divert it to either side and take it up on the pony wall in the bsmnt.
Anyway … is this unusual? I don’t get it.
thanks –
Terry
Replies
Lots of older houses have minimal headers. We've had two in a row where the headers were either one or two 2x4s toenailed in, on the flat. The builders knew that the board sheathing they installed provided quite a bit of stiffness, and they didn't see the need for a buch of 4x8 and 4x10. Those same builders used overspanned 2x4s for rafters too.
If you are adding load, you need to be sure that you've got enough support, and the best way to do that is to either follow prescriptive measures in the building code, hire and engineer, or go to school and become one.
If you are adding load, you need to be sure that you've got enough support, and the best way to do that is to either follow prescriptive measures in the building code, hire and engineer, or go to school and become one.
I am, indeed, adding load. And I do, therefore, need to be sure that I've got enough support. But you missed one of the possible 'best ways' to approach the situation. That is, to figure it out as carefully and common-sensically as you can, do as solid a job as you are able on your own, then cover it up and move on. (I know that around these parts that might be called, the Devil's Way!) :)
thanks -
Terry
My victorian had no headers, just 2x4's. No jack studs either.
Everyone says "the old ones were built to last". Well it has lasted but my house was built as a "to let"(rental) and you can tell corners were cut.
All the same I still love her!
If you have a 1 1/2 story perchance they used balloon framing, haven't been in the biz llong enough to know when that framing style went out, probably as the old growth lumber went out.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
It is, technically, a 1 1/2 story.
I donno what 'balloon framing' is ... or how it would obviate around headers!
T
As I understand it, and as old as I am it's before my time, they used long length studs to run the full height of the 1 1/2 story house. "The balloon frame uses full-length studs that run continuously from foundation to roof." Second floor joists rest on a wood ribbon (also called a ribband) recessed in the studs. Ah the days when labor was cheap and material was expensive, come a long way haven't we?Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
I don't make any claims of this being factual - but I have read in a couple different places that the 1 x shiplap or t&g sheathing on the outside of balloon framed homes added a lot structurally and (in theory) made the headers less necessary.
I'm not vouching for that, it's just something I've read.
Ribbin isn't in my dictionary. I think you are kidding. My dictionary calls it a girt. I am off the subject like the boat guys.
I think you are kidding. My dictionary calls it a girt. I am off the subject like the boat guys
Well, then <g>.
Among the ship & boat wrights I grew up with, a ribband is a temporary fixing to keep hull frames aligned until the wales are set (or enough strakes in a wale-less hull).
I'm thinking that my old copy of Ching on framing uses ribband, as well, but only perpendicular to the joists. My 6th edition Graphic Standards has a call out for "1 x 4 Ribbon Strip" which is inbetween the studs, under the overlaps of the joists on to the studs.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Is the window on a gable end?
If you are ever in Washington, DC, go by the American History Museum to the exhibit "Inside these Walls". They have a house moved from New England somewhere, with outhouse, additions, etc. They have cut-away different portions so you can see the construction detail. As I recall, it has ballon framing. And I believe the house dates from around the American Revolution.
Don't know about yours, but I have seen a lot of old ones that were a sort of timber frame studded in, so the top plate is really a solid beam that supports the loads above it. That makes the individual window headers unessesary
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Exactly my thought.Last balloon framed house I wired had no headers other than the top plate. The let-in ledger below the second-floor joists would also tend to spread the load. All this, and the total lack of insulation, made rewiring, actually wiring in most rooms, a lot easier.
How about a pic of the house? Also, you didn't say if the bathroom in question is on the first or 2nd floor. If it were on the first floor, and if it was platrorm framed, (standard modern stick framing) and if the rim joist were doubled, headers in the exterior walls would really be optional. Lot of 'ifs' there ;-) Then again, I don't know jack about old houses...
People who do know about old houses: When did platform framing first start to be used?
I'm guessing around time of WWII. Might have existed before that but not commonly used. I know balloons were common into the thirties. A lot of new techniques came into comon use with the war. seaBees came up with a lot of quickie technigues for fast buildings in the war years. Plywood production ramped up for some of the navy vessels and those factories needed a market after the war. I know I see a lot of balloons from the 30s and a lot of platforms fropm the fifties.
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Thanks. Interesting. Not to get on too much of a tangent but you said: >> Plywood production ramped up for some of the navy vessels and those factories needed a market after the war. << What was plywood used for on the boats? Superstructure on some of the smaller vessles like may be PT boats? Matt
I thought the hulls of PT boats were made of plywood.
Right you are, Danno.
PT boat hulls were 1-1/2" thick, marine grade plywood. Knotless laminates with waterproof glues.
I have no idea how they ever got it to bend, but they did somehow. I could get 3 layers of 1/2" to bend, but it is my understanding that 1-1/2" thick stock was used in a single layer.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I assumed they were laminated from thin pieces--interesting that they were formed all at once.
Then there was the "Spruce Goose".
the hulls of PT boats were made of plywood
I'm wanting to remember that Higgins was "cold laminating" the hulls (boards were run about 45º from vertical, across the frames, then another layer was laminated on, at 90º to the first), and that they used board stock. I want to remember that Elco did that for a while, but switched over to cut strips of marine-grade plywood--but still "cold laminated."
I want to remember that the nominal thickness was 3/4" from two laminations of 3/8" (as it, lumber, would bend better), and Elco used 2 layers of 1/2" plywood--but that's from reading very old (1943 printed) Bluejacket Manuals & similar vintage Knight's Modern Seamanship. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
That sounds more plausible than bending 1-1/2" all at once.
I think plywood and even paper haven't been used as much as they could be--for boats or other construction. There are houses now being built out of something called "papercrete"--sounds like it has lots of possibilities.
I think plywood and even paper haven't been used as much as they could be--for boats or other construction
Well, for boat construction, FG has pretty much eclipsed all other forms--it's strong and lightweight, but it's also "repeatable."
Build that hull form the one time, get it trued up and faired, and it's done. No going back and trying to get an as-built table of offsets put into the plans, so that the next lofting will be better than the first. Nope, once the mold is good, it's knock'em out till we need to change.
There are still people out there singing the praises of plywood, and laminate construction--they just tend to be small shops or custom shops. There's also dissention, the "true" (read rabid) wood boat people are convinced that resin & fg are heresy--wood trunn'ls are the apogee of technology in their worlds (or, so it seems, sometimes).
Even ol' Norm on NYW, turned out a plywood-plan skiff. Since it was FG reinforced, the scantlings look ridiculously light, but that's a benefit to FG + ply construction.
I've got some stressed-skin and laminated plwood construction guides--but the needs wind up being so specialized, only special projects seem to use them.
Kind of like lightweight concrete structures--they are very cool, but you need a dedicated designer, builder, and product niche to really "do" them right.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT
BOAT CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS!!!
Dayam!
Terry
It looks like you've been around a while, but I see that you still don't know how most threads evolve.You might even learn something from the rabbit trails. I know I do.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT
BOAT CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS!!!
Odd, the evidence would seem to contradict you <g>.
I am not a very tall rabbit, either <g>
In all fairness, I also referred back to my source reference materials (not a compass timber among 'em, either).
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Edited 6/9/2005 6:34 pm ET by CapnMac
You are probably familiar with the plywood boats that are bent and "stitched" with copper wire. I think those are neat. Seems like something like a sandwich with foam as the filling and very thin wood veneer as the bread would work, but like you say, why bother, since FG does it as well or better.
Sorry about the hijack--next time I'll post it to the Cap'n's email!
Edited 6/8/2005 7:12 pm ET by Danno
with the plywood boats that are bent and "stitched" with copper wire.
A very cool method, just some labor intensive--rather like balloon framing, and detailing a balloon frame properly {note--on topic bit of discussion <g>}
Sorry about the hijack
Arrrgh, me jimboy, a gud pirat' ne'er apologizes, arr'h. Ya just plants a foot on the gunn'l an' wi' the ribband send 'em, arrgh, arrh. <g>
taking a pirate stand <teehee>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The entire hull of PTs was made of plywood
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Actually, the PT boat was not made of plywood, though I haven't been able to get a clear definition of what it was made of. One source indicated laminated wood strips, the same as the Spruce Goose, while others have indicated something closer to Masonite.
Actually, the PT boat ...
Doh!
Superstructure on some of the smaller vessles like may be PT boats
Almost all of the smaller landing craft were built of made-to-spec plywood sheets. The "Peter Tares" were almost all wood, too--not just the superstuctures.
American practice at the time did not mix materials much--it was either all metal or all wood. Minesweepers, patrol craft, some harbor craft, these would be built of wood, as it was "non strategic." Or, in the case of mine sweepers, non-magnetic.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>I know balloons were common into the thirties.
On the other side of that I have a platform framed house in Prov. Ri built 1883. So that puts at least a 50 year spread on ballon to platform transitioning. Decent framing around the windows and doors-not nearly as "creative" as the other posts even with huge header beams and thick plank sheathing.
eric
I did a kitchen a couple years ago where there was no framing around the windows. You could still see where they drilled holes in the sheathing at the corners and then connected the holes with a saw. Old house with wide board sheathing.
After the window hole was there, they put a piece of 2x4 on each side, nailed just to the sheathing. Window unit was then nailed through trim into the 2x4 scraps.
But hey, "They don't make 'em like they used to"
Bowz
In balloon framing, the rim joist between the first and second floor acts as the header. The studs above are generally notched into the rim joist, holding them up.
Works better than one might expect.
You might see different styles than I do, but I have never seen a rim joist in any balloon framing. usually there is just a 1x6 let in under the joists on the inside.
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Hmmmm ...
Now I'm wondering if I have to put that header in at all. It IS a first floor bathroom on the gable end and the second floor ... (1/ 1/2 really) is as solid as a rock. Perhaps the joist of the second floor would spread the load enough not to need a header after all. Anyway .. I'm in now .. may as well drop another few 2X4's in at least. Then wire for and install a fan, insulate, new shower plumbing .. and button it up with cdx and formica... lots of caulk!
Terry
You don't say how wide the window is. I would put header on top of first floor top plate. It doesn't matter if the header is 1 foot above the window.
I would put header on top of first floor top plate.
Dont you mean at the bottom .. just underneith .. the first floor top-plate? I am in to the wall that it just UNDER the top plate of the first floor ... meaning that my access al;lows me to header up under that plate and OVER the first floor bathroom window. If I was to go on TOP of the first floor top plate I''d be up into the second floor wall (?) Why not stay within the first floor wall?
Terry
NO. I meant on top. You said you were adding load over the window but if the window is in a gable end you can't add load over the window even if you add ten stories on. I said you could go on top because I thought you had a access problem under. Even if a header is 1 or 2 feet above a window it will still transfer load.
I meant on top. You said you were adding load over the window but if the window is in a gable end you can't add load over the window even if you add ten stories on. I said you could go on top because I thought you had a access problem under.
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The window is just exactly three feet wide. It's on the first floor, gable end. But on the floor above I'm headering off several rafters ... and I'm transferring much of the weight of that load to the gable end. So I thought that I should header that downward load out sideways and to either side of the first floor window directly below it... and pass it down to the bsmnt pony-wall and foundation. Does this not make sense? Am I ok simply relying on the strenghth of the current end-wall? (And pls don't say 'go hire an engineer' .. it's not a HUGE load ... the weight of about 6 rafters-with-collar-ties ... I don't have the money or inclination to bring in an engineer for a simple thing .. would rather just go ahead and do it if there's any question.
thanks!
Terry
You are going to header rafters over to the gable end. Where the header meets the gable end you need a support under the rafter header. The size of the support depends on how much weight the header is carrying. It may be 2,3,or 4 2x4 Nailed together. This would be a column under your rafter header and continue all the way down to your foundation. If your bathroom window is in line with this column then it needs a header. A double 2x6 header should be more than adequate.
You are going to header rafters over to the gable end. Where the header meets the gable end you need a support under the rafter header. The size of the support depends on how much weight the header is carrying. It may be 2,3,or 4 2x4 Nailed together. This would be a column under your rafter header and continue all the way down to your foundation. If your bathroom window is in line with this column then it needs a header. A double 2x6 header should be more than adequate.
!!!EXCELLENT!!!
This is exactly the situation ... headed off to the gable end .. directly over the first floor window. You've addressed it precisely.
Thanks so much!
Terry
I don't know if it's usual, but my 1914 house in NY didn't have a header in pantry window. It was a bearing wall, not the gable end, but in a small shed portion of the house. The old window had no problems, but got replaced with something more energy efficient.