I’m replacing two doors on a house with no house wrap, vinyl siding right over OSB. Doors will be wood frame saver jambs, pvc brickmould, fiberglass slabs. How the heck would you flash doors? I would never build like this but a lot of homes were built this way in our area (Missouri).
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Tear the house down and start over.
vinyl siding over OSB? aye carumba...what a ticking timebomb.
If it were me, I'd make it clear to the customer what you're up against, why it's unacceptable, and that your warranty won't go beyond the door. Then, I'd buy the best caulk I could get my hands on and hit the road.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Then, I'd buy the best caulk I could get my hands on and hit the road.
Justin Fink and FHB have a new theme song: Hit the Road Jack, by Ray Charles.
That's up a notch from their former theme, The Fly-by-Night Blues, author unknown.
Please note, the official FHB answer is to tear off the siding, add a weather-resistive barrier, and then properly flash all of the windows and doors :)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
And use a Fein Multimaster.
huh? why Fein Multimaster?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
why not???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Ongoing joke on Breaktime.
Actually Justin, I have seen this a lot, especially on garages. I have yet to see any moisture problems.
Must be lucky!
The sad reality is that this stuff is built all over the country. Then more concious builders like myself have to compete with this because the homebuyers of today know 10x more about X box than they do about their $200k investment.
See attached pic for something even worse...
The one guys even smiling for the picture. Thats sad.
"vinyl siding over OSB? aye carumba...what a ticking timebomb."
You should have seen this in the Atlanta market between 1990 and 2007. It can be said that it is a rarity that you would see a home being built that was wrapped, and the preference of the land (illogically so) was to scrimp on the OSB as well.
I'm betting that 99% of the building permits in my county in the past decade were done a la tract, and with the worse building principals that lack of code and enforcement permitted.
Heck, I am comfortable saying 75% of the homes built in America in the past 20 years are ticking timebombs. But I'm deemed a troublemaker. :)
In Atlanta that bomb will go off sooner than anywhere else. It's the heat, humidity, driven rain, insects, and fungus. If a house lucks out and gets enough wind to dry itself out after every soaking then some deck builder comes along and rots out the ribbon joists because they think putting flashing against the house makes them as big a sissy as wearing gloves to handle pressure treated lumber. I built a 12x12 addition in Atlanta, got ratted out by a neighbor and had to get an after-the-fact permit. When the framing inspector came he said that was the best construction he'd ever seen in his 13 years on the job. ??? I'm not even a carpenter. I just had my dad's college copy of Ramsey and Sleeper's Architectural Graphic Standards from 1956 and followed the specified nailing schedule. Apparently nobody else in Gwinnett County knew there was a rule about how many nails go in the top plate or along the edge of the sheathing. And there is a misconception that all those holes in the hurricane straps are there to reduce the weight.
I don't have any particular aversion to OSB, it has some advantages to plywood. I've also read from APA literature that it holds nails better than plywood, something to do with the binders and adhesives in it I suppose. I've nailed hardiplanks to it without finding studs and almost four years later, the planks are still good and tight.
With that in mind, I buy a particularly expensive plywood for my house when I can afford it and I dont have any complaints about it either.
I've always been told that Tyvek and building felt perform almost the same, so even at my house I'll use the felt as a way to reduce cost. I'm not so much interested in the air barrier as I am keeping a leaky joint from doing alot of damage to the sub-wall before I find it and take care of it. I don't think it matters which forum on the web you go to, it could be about car racing or pet grooming, some people just find something to argue about and latch onto it.
I don't trust vinyl siding on bit, but at the same time I've seen houses being torn apart with vinyl and no housewrap that didn't have major water damage. I've also seen houses with wood clapboards under foam insulation, housewrap, and vinyl siding that were so rotten that the carpenter ants and termites had become roommates. It's all in the details, one part luck, and one part skill. I prefer not to leave the health of my house and myself to luck.
Yes, I'm much happier now that I live in a house I built myself. I have a serious aversion to OSB and plywood and anything that has toxic sawdust and outgassing. Big time chemical sensitivities. Plus I can't manage those 4x8 sheets by myself. I'm just a 120 lb woman. I built my whole house without any OSB or plywood at all. Solid maple floor (2" thick from a circa 1930s gymnasium), plank and beam style, no subfloor. Post and beam framing with 1x8 pine sheathing, Tyvek house wrap (somebody gave me what was left after they resided their house), icynene foamed-in-place insulation for draft and sound proofing plus pest proofing. I carefully found the studs for all my Hardieplank, but the Hardie Shingleside is nailed into the pine 1x8s. I'm not worried about the nails holding. (The siding was all leftovers too) I didn't tape my Tyvek meticulously to act to stop air infiltration because I knew I was going to be using the foam insulation to do that. (1x6 tongue and groove pine on the inside, no good for stopping air.) But I did lap the Tyvek properly to shed wind driven rain that might get behind the siding. I don't like tarpaper because it's smelly and messy and can buckle up and make it hard to get the Hardieplank on flat. For a roof I have industrial grade white metal on purlins (free surplus as cutoffs from a bigger job) so I escaped any sheathing worries up there.Wonder which is better in fire -- Tyvek or tarpaper? My woods evolved to be extra flammable so I made my house to deflect flames from the outside. My instinct is that tarpaper has a lot more latent energy in it than Tyvek. Kinda makes me want to go set some on fire.... I think I have some of both in the shed. Be right back...
Be right back...
LOL. Is that the internet version of "hold my beer and watch this"?
Sounds like a nice house but I'm curious about your approach to chemical sensitivities. If your foam insulation acts as an effective air barrier, why are you worried about using plywood, OSB or building paper on the exterior?
As an aside, there are plenty of ULC tests of building paper and house wraps available which give results for both the materials on their own and as part of wall assemblies. You really don't need a blowtorch to find out how they do :)
Plenty of studies? What's the fun in that?!I had to build everything myself so working with OSB and plywood at all, cutting it etc. would make me really sick. Plus that whole not being able to pick it up by myself thing. I actually had to move into this house when it was nothing but framing and sheathing and the metal roof. The day I had the electrical inspection and got off temporary power I moved in. The back of the 1x8s were my inside walls for a whole winter. The Tyvek was my windows. Gives a lovely Japanese screen kind of look to a place. I stapled a 12x12 canvas drop cloth around the main room for a ceiling. The soffits were wide open and a large family of wasps decided the underside of my roof was nice enough to live there all winter while other wasps died like they're supposed to. I finally saved enough money to call the foam insulation contractor by spring. I got those soffits closed up before those wasps changed their personality from grateful for being alive to their aggressive breeding season selves.Of course you're correct that if it's only on the outside it shouldn't matter. I did put 2 sheets of Advantech in the bathroom. I hired a man to come out here and cut it while I stayed upwind about a quarter of a mile. Then I bravely screwed it down and quickly put Hardibacker over it. (I use the thinset too, like the directions say. No outgassing to my side.) Being around toxins like that makes me sick for a few days, but then I get over it. The medical terms are fatigue and mental confusion. I worked with the nasty stuff on Sunday so I'd be tired and stupid at work on Monday where it wouldn't matter.I wonder how many building professionals are affected by this but just have no recollection of how energetic and intelligent they used to be?
I wonder if the weight of many building materials, like bagged concrete and sheet goods, that have been designed to be moved by healthy good sized males has been a factor that has kept women out of many construction trades?
As for the effect of VOCs on builders. That is another area where anecdotal experience might be misleading. Around here the most obviously affected are carpet layers - but then they also are among the heaviest users of recreational drugs. The glue may just be that little bit more that pushed their little grey cells over the edge.
Yeah, a 70 lb bag of sand is my nemesis. I did a big dry stack split face wall project that I calculated to contain over 60 tons of material, not counting the red clay I dug out and relocated in my wheelbarrow. It was manageable because each shovelful is discrete and each block only weighed 28 pounds. I started with the cheap sand in 70lb bags then said to hell with it and switched to crushed limestone paver base that comes in 40 lb bags. Now I'm hooked on that fancy stuff. It rules.I actually kind of like digging because I don't feel so disadvantaged by strength or wealth. (I don't give a damn how long anything takes. Never met a man that thought like that. But enjoying the work and the quality of the finished product is all that matters to me.) I can move a lot of mass one manageable amount at a time. I've learned how much I can put in the wheelbarrow and still move it. Plus I like that if you dig too much you can just put it back. None of the heartbreak of "I cut this twice and it's STILL too short!"
I hope you kept that red clay! It is kind of like a landsape waterproofer.
I laughed when I read your burn test, funny stuff....
Are you really sensitive to Advantech? It's not made with formaldehyde glues. I know that before I started using it instead of regular OSB, I definitely had a reaction to the OSB sawdust. No problems at all with Advantech or anything using phenolic resins... Formaldehyde-free sheet goods are becoming far more common anyhow. The MDF I get at my local Home Depot is 100% recycled and formaldehyde-free. Plus it's made in PA, so about as local as one can get, all the other finish grade plywoods are from Ecuador or China. And too boot, it's only $25/sheet. Z
...the other finish grade plywoods are from Ecuador or China.
Boy, is that a topic worthy of a thread!
be bumped
It is? I don't know anything about cabinet grade plywood other than the stuff at my local HD looks like cr$p with lots of voids and few plys. I'm not against spending good money for good wood, but this stuff is $45+ sheet which I was lead to believe was what good cab ply costs. I figured the MDF would be even worse, but they left the shipping docket on a bunk, and turns out that the MDF is coming down from the Temple-Inland plant in Mt. Jewett, PA. Only 300 miles away, instead of 3,000 or further. Buy local!Z
Nailed a bit of Tyvek and a bit of tarpaper to a pine board side by side, stood it up like a wall and applied the barbecue lighter. The Tyvek does just like any thin plastic would do. Shrivels up instantly and it's all over. The tarpaper does take a surprisingly long time to catch fire, but catch fire it does. And burns with an orange flame and bubbles of asphalt come up to the surface and it smokes from behind and stinks like a road resurfacing project. My experiment was flawed by wind, which blew out the tar paper. I bet tarpaper behind some vinyl siding would burn real good for a long time though. Long enough to catch the sheathing behind it on fire. My lighter experiment only got the wood a little sooty. If the sheathing caught fire from something that started on the inside though, watch out.I shot video of the experiment. But I bet this site doesn't let us post videos.
Man I sure didn't know I would start such a discussion.I pulled surrounding siding and J trim and removed doors. Installed Vycor at sides and head, installed fiberglass doors with framesaver jambs and brickmould, and installed drip cap. I ran another piece of Vycor, completely covering the piece at head, down over drip cap flange. Caulked brickmould to Vycor with urethane caulk and replaced vinyl.Homeowner signed off on disclaimer.I'm not a house wrap fan but I strongly believe that osb is not suitable as a drainage plane. On houses I've seen built this way, all nailheads are rusty and osb is at least "swollen" or worse, falling apart.
you can still make an attempt to do a decent flashing job. wrap the opening surrounds starting at the bottom on each side and work your way up. Head flashing get's a drip lip on top of the BM. Caulk the flashing at the edges and caulk at the joint between the BM and the flashing.
not everything that we're asked to do can be done without compromise nor do we always start with a perfect product.
I worked on a house like that last fall. Took all of the siding off. Repaired lots of rotten OSB. Flashed and black papered and put the same siding back on. Was a interesting experience.
Buy a tube of Geocel 2300 tri-polymer sealant. Caulk the brickmold to the casing and caulk the brickmold to the osb. Don't be skimpy, even though you will pay $5.00+ for a tube.
How the heck would you flash doors?
Why even bother flashing them? What of value is there to protect?
If you gotta do this, use Blueskin or some other aggressive ice-and-snow roofing membrane stuck to the OSB. Zipper enough of the vinyl off to get a foot or so away from the RO, stick on the membrane, then staple the siding back on. Do not caulk.
But. This is not Good Building Practise. So get the HO to sign off on this abortion, before you start, in writing, on paper. Witnessed.
Otherwise, walk.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I've been using metal "L" flashing for such things. Cut into manageable lengths it's possible to cut a few nails once the old door is out and slide the flashing behind the siding. Much more doable than trying to get ice and water anywhere between the siding and osb.
Huber's sheathing system doesn't use paper or wrap. They must have details for flashing openings - I think they use a proprietary tape. Might be worth a look.
Can you talk them into striping much of it the vinyl comes off real quick usually. maybe just that wall? Otherwise I would use 9" vycor around the opeing and make some z-type flashing for a drip cap.
Of course its very important to explain in writing the problems with the existing house and eliminate yourself from any blame as much as possiblle.
I recently resided my entire house with new vinyl as part of a remodel. My house was built in 1987- vinyl over OSB. No Housewrap. But also no rot. Not a bit. NONE. There was some in the roof sheathing but that's another story. So mine stood for 20 years without any rot or even signs of water damage or other impending doom. We added housewrap as part of the remodel and it is now required in my jurisdication (as of 7/1/08), but there are millions of homes all over the country built this way. I wouldn't condemn all of them for being built to a poor standard.
I couldn't agree with you more. That's the way 90% of all new construction is done around Chicago. Wrapped with housewrap. OSB is not cheap and does not rot anymore than anything else that has been properly protected.
I think house wrap is a hoax anyway. A home that is built well doesn't need an air barrier and Tyvek isn't a water/moisture barrier. Is the vinyl job shoddy? Is there something about the house to make you think it has big air holes in it? So why are you worrying?
Flash the doors with metal or some ice and water shield - like you would anyway (I hope).
What will you do when you replace a door on a house with no house wrap or sheathing for that matter? Siding on bare studs?!?!
Don't forget to charge extra... because all houses have house wrap and it's a more difficult job when there's no house wrap. $$$
DC
<< I think house wrap is a hoax anyway. A home that is built well doesn't need an air barrier and Tyvek isn't a water/moisture barrier. Is the vinyl job shoddy? Is there something about the house to make you think it has big air holes in it? So why are you worrying? >>You can't be serious, Dreamcatcher... A continuous air barrier is probably one of THE most important components on a house, and though Tyvek isn't a "barrier" to water vapor, it absolutely sheds bulk water. A characteristic that is a MUST when installing vinyl siding, which leaks like a sieve, even when installed EXACTLY per the manufacturers instructions!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Thanks for the input. I always flash door and window openings. Your ideas are much like mine. As far as this being an acceptable way to build, the proof is evident. I'm replacing two 11 year old doors with rotten brickmould and jambs. It would be a lot worse but the windows are clad and the other two doors on the house are under wider eaves.
Of course I'm serious. Can you really tell me that all those houses with house wrap are air tight? Even when installed properly. Why would any properly built house have "bulk water" issues anyway? Even with vinyl siding?I've seen more water issues under Tyvek than under tar paper or nothing.The only things good about Tyvek is that it's 9 ft. long, you can get your business name printed on it and leave it exposed for up to 9 months. Why does everyone think it's magic?DC
Nobody is saying that all houses with housewrap are air-tight, because we know that housewrap is often installed incorrectly. What I am saying is that if it IS installed correctly, then yes, it will act as an air barrier (obviously penetrations need to be address with other methods). But felt paper will do the same thing - they are both known as "weather resistive barriers", the drawback to felt paper is that it's harder to seal seams. Housewrap is easier to tape. The reason you've seen more issues under old housewrap is because most people don't know how to install it. If you put it up wrong, you may as well skip it instead, because it's just channeling water where you don't want it. And it can be left exposed for 4 months, not 9. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"you've seen more issues under old housewrap is because most people don't know how to install it."Because people think it's magic. A fault of the manufacturer.
It's a poor and unnecessary product. If it were a good product, it would install flawlessly every time. If it were necessary, it's installation would be subject to inspection.Hey, if you install it correctly you could use newspaper to keep out air. Felt paper, sure. What I am saying is that a well built home that uses osb/plywood sheathing doesn't have huge air gaps like old houses with plank sheathing or none. Why should I need to wrap the entire exterior of a house that is going to have siding installed over anyway? Where is all this air blowing in? Through the plywood? Through the siding then through the plywood joint on the stud? If that's what you're worried about, just buy a tube of caulk.I think this just rates up there with things we do just because that's the way it's been done. Like gluing drywall to insulation paper? Using "structural" screws to hang cabinets? Using green board in a shower? Using FG inslulation in the joist bays? Sill seal? There are many reoccurring issues in construction that don't make sense when you sit down and think about it. BTW #1: I do often use Tyvek but only because HOs expect to see it used. sorry, I meant 4 months.
Although there are some wraps that go 9 months. DC
Using "structural" screws to hang cabinets?
Tell me about the rabbits, George.
Using "structural" screws to hang cabinets?<<<Are you crazy?? I see people using drywall screws all the time with no problem...LOLView Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern
Hey, AC's still hanging around these parts!
Will wonders never cease.
of course, seeyou invented wonders.
Are you just anti-housewrap or do you think building paper is not necessary on sheathing either?
I guess I'm just anti-housewrap.I could see the value in using it if there wasn't sheathing or just skip-sheathing.I think building paper (tar paper) is important to keep moisture off the plywood that accumulates by means of condensation on the back of vinyl and aluminum or the occasional wicking that might occur though cedar shingles.I was just doing what I was always taught to do (apply house wrap) when I stopped and thought about it for awhile and concluded that it was all just BS propagated by Dupont.I used to fabricate and install Corian, which the more I found out about it, the more I felt it was overpriced junk with another BS promotion behind it.Gimme good ol' tar paper and stone; wood and metal. Plastic is for pop bottles.BTW: I don't install vinyl; it's wood siding or no siding if you hire me.Oh, and the "structural screw" issue was in reference to non-"piffin" screws. Apparently "real" cabinet installers only use GRK screws. Guess I'm not a "real" cabinet installer.DC
I like building paper too although I know it is a hot topic here. I do like synthetic roof underlayment though. That is a real improvement when you are able to get things dried in quickly especially here where the next dry day may be months away.
The best use I have found for corian is as a base for wood columns or posts to keep them separate from decks. Never really thought they were up to much as counters either although the whole have-to-have granite has filtered down to even the tiniest condos now.
I gotta say I agree with some of your points. you always get an argument here when the word tyvek is used
its too bad people use tyvek or depend on it for something that it not intended. tyvek is not a water proofing substrate or membrane
its intended purpose is to keep wind from blowing through the seams in the sheathing. period.
it does not stop water and it is designed to allow moisture to migrate, albeit slowly.
sure, its nice to wrap a project with it to "help" protect from the weather until that project is properly flashed and sided
anyone who relys on tyvek to waterproof a building under any kind of siding, especially vinyl, has been misled. people who think they are adding a level of protection with housewrap might just as well save their money and use nothing at all
and I know there are a couple of desk jockeys around here who will argue their point to the death. but take it from the guys out in the field like myself who have taken apart house wrapped walls that are just completely saturated with water because some idiot used it in place of felt paper or metal flashing
I am with you guys on the Tyvek issue.
We did a vinyl reside a few years ago, full replacement due to hail damage, and upon removal we noticed no housewrap. Of course everyone was initially appalled (house was built late 90's) but after further inspection the only places where there was water damage was at the base of the windows North side of the house. Previous installer had bedded all J channels in Lexel and the bottom piece of J had captured all the moisture.
Everywhere else was mint, with exception to the dead ladybird beetles and spider dung, and grass clippings falling in my face during removal.
We installed housewrap before residing.
Justin,
Discussing Tyvek, you wrote, "A continuous air barrier is probably one of THE most important components on a house." In your next post you wrote, "What I am saying is that if it IS installed correctly, then yes, it will act as an air barrier (obviously penetrations need to be addressed with other methods). But felt paper will do the same thing."
1. Equating Tyvek with air barriers is an old misconception. For most houses, the air barrier consists of a system including a very wide range of materials, including poured concrete, gypsum wallboard, gaskets, caulk, glass, and spray foam. Tyvek is rarely part of an air barrier, although it can be. The main purpose of all WRBs, including Tyvek, is to act as a barrier to wind-driven rain that gets past the siding.
2. While Tyvek CAN be a component of an air barrier system, especially if the seams are meticulously taped, under no circumstances can felt paper perform as an air barrier. Not going to happen.
Martin Holladay, senior editor
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com
A continuous air barrier is probably one of THE most important components on a house, and though Tyvek isn't a "barrier" to water vapor, it absolutely sheds bulk water. A characteristic that is a MUST when installing vinyl siding, which leaks like a sieve, even when installed EXACTLY per the manufacturers instructions
Really? Not too long ago I worked on a house built in the 1920s, where the siding--1 x 8 yellow pine planking--was nailed directly to the studs. There was no sheathing, no tarpaper and, of course, no housewrap. And no rot. The house (one-story with a hip roof) had large, overhanging eaves and in most rain storms little or no water reached the siding.
In my experience, there are many things more important than housewrap or tarpaper--which weren't required by code a few years ago. By the way, neither house wrap nor tarpaper are essential to an air flow retarding system, according to Joe Lstiburek. You can curtail the flow of air through a building assembly using drywall, a variety of sheathings (including OSB and plywood) and dense-pack cellulose insulation.
I've repaired a lot of rotten frames in my lifetime and here, in my opinion, were the main causes of the decay:
1.) House frames sitting too close to the soil. This, combined with poor grading and over enthusiastic landscapers, has created an ideal habitat for termites and the organisms that cause rot.
2.) No overhanging eaves or rakes. Wide eaves, especially, keep much of the water from reaching the siding.
3.) Incorrectly flashed horizontal elements (tops of doors and windows, deck ledgers, and so on).
I've got nothing against housewrap. I've installed it on my jobs and would definitely consider installing it on my own house. But let's keep it in it's proper place. After you carefully lap it and tape the seams, you riddle it with holes when you install the siding. It's a very imperfect back-up system and it's no substitute for sensible design and good workmanship.
ditto what mudslinger said
Right on!
My parents resided their house a couple of years ago. When my father built it in 80? 81? he didn't have the money for anything but the essentials, so no tar paper or housewrap. When they pulled the pine clapboards 25 years later to reside (the one coat of stain/weatherproofer did an admirable job), there was no damage whatsoever to be found on the plywood sheathing. What he did spend money and time on was making sure that the construction was performed correctly. Z
Just goes to show OSB is cheap #### and people that are proponents of it only want to save a buck at the cost of quality and durability, or they really don't know what they are doing. While building a terminal at JFK several new sheets of OSB were left out over the winter, resulting in moldy mush come spring. I have had the same scrap of 34 plywood I split firewood on for going on 5 years, (outside the whole time) and its still structurally stable.
The door: slide head flashing underneath the OSB after removing fasteners (If they didn't bother tar papering the house there shouldn't be many, or maybe they used staples). Flashing should go from behind OSB, step over and then front of your exterior molding.
Inform the owners about the lack of weather barrier before you do the job and shed all liability. You might look at the legal department of the Journal of Light Construction for more tips on a situation like yours.
Your flashing solution is silly. You obviously don't have much of a clue. Look at all the OSB houses that are all mushy, your an inspiration.
I'd lift the vinyl trim and slide some butyl tape as far under as I could while carrying it to the edge of the rough opening. We usually start at the bottom, cut the tape into short sections to make it easier to work, and lap each piece. It won't resolve the issue of no wrap but it will seal the door pretty well.
Anybody see why it would not be OK/better to use housewrap, then felt over it?.
WSJ
I would just use Vycor to wrap the openings and to seal the flashing to the sheathing.