I’m trying to design a balcony that will have all of its framing exposed. The joist will be recessed down inside the beams instead of sitting on top of the beams.
The beams will be a made from a double 2″x12″ and the joist will be form a single 2×8.
I need to find a way where it looks as though the joist are just butting into the beam. I’m trying to keep it clean and simple (Looking).
Also, it has to pass IRC 2006.
Any suggestions?
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Replies
ledger
I'm hoping for a ledgerless solution. With a 2x8 joist you can only use a 2x2 ledger and I think that would look kind of retarded.
>> I'm trying to design a balcony that will have all of its framing exposed. The joist will be recessed down inside the beams instead of sitting on top of the beams.The beams will be a made from a double 2"x12" and the joist will be form a single 2x8. <<That sounds like a double 2x12 ledger and a double outside beam to me.Now you say this, >> I'm hoping for a ledgerless solution. With a 2x8 joist you can only use a 2x2 ledger and I think that would look kind of retarded. <<Are you trying not to use a ledger up against the house and using a double 2x12 girder on the outside of the balcony? I don't understand.Joe Carola
Joe:
I think the confusion is one of terminology. Some people refer to a ledger strip as a ledger. An example of a ledger strip might be a 2x4 ripped to produce a "2x2" that has an actual size of 1.5"x~1.75". Some people just call that a ledger.
Your right, I am calling a ledger strip a ledger. What you are calling a ledger we usually refer to as rim board. (Sorry I picked it up here in the south)
Now although I like sphere's idea I think that sequndo's is probably the most practical. It's not the look that I want but it is probably the only way.
What I am building is a 2nd floor balcony over a first floot porch. And instead of putting a ceiling in I would like to leave all of the framing exposed. I want the framing as clean looking as possible. I sure don't want to see any metal fasteners. And I want to nail all of the joist from the back side so I won't even be able to see the nails. I know I still have to nail the beams together, but I will counter sink the nails and putty the holes.
I'm tired of all of my framing being covered by some hack that just screws up the finish. Now that I'm building houses for myself I try to create areas that show off some of the framing.
Use a stopped Dado then and frame the whole floor/cieling away from the back wall, and screw the joists into the wall ledger and then slide the floor frame back to the wall. That is exactly how I assembled the stucture I did. "cept my dados were, dovetails.
I had pics, but that Portfolio got stolen outta my truck.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Instead of white pine, we can get plenty of cypress here in Louisiana. It's the state tree. Then all that I would have to do is seal it. I could get the beams for a couple hundred bucks, but the cost would be in the 2x6 t&g.
Yeah, yours is outside..go for it. I used a lot of Cypress in my days..a whole log homes worth in NC.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Just did something similar to Segundo's suggestion- careful (predrilled) toenailing with galvanized 20Ds, 3 per side of 2x6. Couldn't even use solid blocking on this one, because of architects wishes. Engineer signed it off though.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
i'm not seeing it like that. 2x12 beam, 2x6 ledger ripped to proper dimension flush with bottom of beam, 2x8 joist on top of that, carefull toenailing (just like they did before hangers) and solid blocking.
with good skills, attention to detail, carefull not to dent and booger everything up when nailing and tapping blocks into place etc, (ie: clean framing) it should be a thing of beauty, its just that from below the beam will appear to be 3 in stead of 2 members ganged together.
it should look fine.
I did a similar deal with 3x10 to 3x10 , I used a sliding tapered dovetail. Pretty easy actually. The Dove tail is vee shaped.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Even though you would think that that would pass an inspection, my bet is that, at least in my area, I'd have to get an engineering letter saying it is OK.
If this guy needs to be inspected, my bet is that he is going to have problems to get what he desires.
He can't do this within the confines of the material sizes he is restricting himself to, but I have also done simialr to Sphere's suggestion three times where framing is exposed. But to compensate for the removal of materials thickness he has to upsize to meet engineering needs.And that is not a bad idea either because it just plain looks better and that is what he is trying to do.But if he wants to do this and that and not do x and Y, he is screwing himself.
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I used 3x10 RSawn White pine , just for that reason. Exposed,2' centers, less than 9' span with 2x6 T&G flooring. Passed in a heart beat.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Where your joist 3x10's also? And how thick was the plywood for 24" O.C.?
Sorry, I just noticed that you said the flooring was 2"x6". Which is what I planned on using. Your idea may work, and I bet it would look awesome.
I'm not trying to limit my options, but those are the sizes per code(just a starting point). I will use whatever size works. I'm just want a clean look.
Those are the MINIMUM sizes. You can oversize all you want.To do as you say, with no hardware showing, and not wanting ledgers under the joists, the only choice you have is to dado in and upsize.
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Just in case the "no hangers" thing doesn't work out - You might consider hangers with concealed flanges. Some hanger places also sell decorative hangers that look like wrought iron.
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I did that in a room addition in Lehigh Co. PA. (exposed in a living room) and my inspector said "no way, I need to see hangers there" , I showed him the joint, and kinda said that barns still stand 2oo yrs. with that same detail, and when he actually saw the dovetail ( only visable from the top) he went " WOW"! signed off and asked for my bizness cards to pass out.
He never even looked at any of my framing there-after, just signed off.
I would wager, a properly sized and fitted joint would fly just about anywhere, with the right explanation(s).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
So it sounds like what you and Piffin are saying is that he converted to more of a post and beam type construction it would work out. In other words, using an actual beam instead of a built up beam... I'll buy that, and actually your solution sounds like an awesome detail.
OTOH, I'm not sure what year the project was you did, but from what little I know about inspections, etc, in PA, if it was other than within the last several years, I'd say that a PA inspector just might be apt to accept what would "fly anywhere" :-)
Now don't get mad... we are just discussing :-)
Anyway, for example my sis and BIL had a house built in an adjacent PA county around 2000. IIRC that was right about the time they were in the process of getting a state wide BC. I visited their new house. I saw a few things that seemed questionable and hinted around and asked about inspections. My BIL described the rather brief inspection process - can't recall the details now - and then he added something to the effect of: "Hey - our builder knows what he is doing - I know those guys and they miter their fascia board corners." :-) (Chest puffed out) :-) Not to get on too much of a tangent, but check out the attached pic. Not sure what the deal was, and I know caulk is not a good long term solution, but it looks like this builder didn't want to waste money on that or any kind of flashing - that I saw... :-) BTW - the window you see is a regular vinyl flange window with an integral 'J'-channel, Hardie siding just butted into it. There were structural questions too, but I don't have photos of those.
Aside from that, what I'm trying to say, is that in most of the areas I have built in, if the as-built solution is not in the code book they more often than not the BI wants an eng to take responsibility, and the OP said the design had to meet IRC 2006 requirements. In other areas inspectors may apply some additional common sense to what is in the book - or so I've heard. :-)
Well yeah, it was in the '90's so I shouldn't say that it would fly now.
And yes, it is a timber frame type joint, that was "engineered" before a hanger was ever dreampt of. It never occured to me that I mighta been shot down on inspection, or that I'd need an eng. stamp. I just did it.
Good thing it passed, otherwise I woulda chewed up a lot of wood and time...for nothing. Well, actually, I woulda added the hangers and after CO remove them. Just like the old chicken wire on a ballustrade trick.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
chicken wire hu. :-) I'll have to remember that one :-) In the past, when I was forced into such a situation, I'm pretty sure I had a pretty broad smile on my face when the inspector came back for the reinspect :-)
It is often easier to get forgivness, than permission. (G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Sliding tapered dovetail joist to flush beam connection...mah hayd is a'spinnin..;-)
>>The joist will be recessed down inside the beams instead of sitting on top of the beams.
I'd be concerned with water penetration and potential rot.
Design of the joint would be critical
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The joint would not see any water because the deck would be water tight. Plus for an exterior deck we have to use pressure treated wood.
You'd have to beef up the joists to use this, but it might be an option.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/CJT_APG.html
View Image
what about just using the hangers and then after the fact add the strip ledger and solid blocking?
again if you do a clean job of it you can get a nice fit on the blocks, and i have seen before where you take a skillsaw and set the blade depth same as the depth of the bottom of the joist hanger, then you make a cut about an inch above the bottom of the joist (on the end grain) so the hanger fits in to cut and is hidden.
what do you think, inspector should buy it, if joists are deep enough for the span, and i think thats the easy way to hide them.
pressure blocking.