http://www.housedoctors.com/articles/TryingoutHandyman010405.html
This is a very enjoyable read. Very informing as well.
Tim
http://www.housedoctors.com/articles/TryingoutHandyman010405.html
This is a very enjoyable read. Very informing as well.
Tim
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Replies
I agree, very informative...especially the pricing models. Maybe I need to rethink my desire to handle larger projects. $90 plus an hour?
PaulBinCT - "
I agree, very informative...especially the pricing models. Maybe I need to rethink my desire to handle larger projects. $90 plus an hour?"
Paul it's not about handling larger projects at all. In fact it's about handling smaller projects but handling them professionally and very business-like.
While I know you are over in New Haven and while both the cost of living and what people are willing to pay is higher over here in Westchester County NY (and our labor costs are higher too) we're still in roughly the same region. Here's a local handyman service that is doing extremely well and they're charging $110 for the first hour $85 each additional hour and $60 for an estimate.
View Image
I'm proud to be a Handyman. A one-stop shop for customers, who all have lists of projects that other contractors don't want. Plenty of business and lots of variety. I'd go nuts doing the same thing day in and day out.
I have a well-rounded set of skills, I provide quality work and great customer service, and obviously need to charge more, since those franchises seem to be getting it.
I know a lot of people have a low opinion of of the term Handyman, but there are hacks in all the trades. The good ones will always outlast them (even though they may outnumber us all!)
Pete Duffy, Handyman
Pete,
I'm not much of a handyman. I do own a handyman business where my men go out to the homes and repair everything & anything. I envy their talents. Joe & Steve derive a great deal of pleasure from their accomplishments.
This is a business & we have to treat it like a business. We check out the backgrounds on our techs because we want our customers to feel comfortable with our techs in their homes. The insurance is expensive and absolutely necessary. The vans have to look nice. The secretary is necessary. The advertisment is unbelievable.
All of the above & more that is not listed makes the handyman hourly rate justified. If you are a handyman & you aren't charging at least $40 an hour, then you are short changing yourself. You also aren't incurring expenses that probably need to be part of your business.
90+ $/hr.!!??
Wonder how much of that makes it into the workmans pocket??
Mr. T. MOTOL
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
You already know the answer to that.
TRIGGER said:
63944.4 in reply to 63944.3
what exactully does thAt meaNMR SPHERE i CHALLENNGE YOU INTECIIUPLECFTUZAL DRAMAQ RUIGHJ5 NOW BBITYCH
things are tough all over, eh?
Handyschmucks??
Mr. T. MOTOL
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Depends on which angency. Handy man connection the worker gets half. The company provides the leads, insurance and money as they bill the customer.
Cool!
Where do I sign up???
Mr. T. MOTOL
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
But under Doctor you are the doc unless you hire help.
So then you would recieve all the money.
Tim
signup on their websites.
Up here, the biggest service I know of, charges ~65 an hour. I figure the guys make about 20... and it shows. I dont know how they stay in business. I dont think the break down is unreasonable as much as the work they produce. And yes, their vans are a lot nicer than mine.
Painting behind them on a small kitchen job, two of them showed up and argued over what the right way was to put in vinyl flooring. The customer later told me that he was charged for all that time.
And it still looked like crap. So I guess if you rent a husband thats what you are going to get.
-zen
Some time back I tried doing stuff like this but found that many people just won't pay for your time. Think you are gonna work for $15 an hour... I guess they think you don't actually have to eat food, have a place to live, and that your truck runs on virtual fuel. They want you to come clean out their gutters on a 2.5 story house for $20. One lady had a list of about 5 small items including installing a few shelves, hanging a curtain or 2, and other stuff. Looked like 4 hours to me. I told her $220 (including materials and the time to go get them). She said no and that my price was ridiculous. Lived in a $500k house.
In the article it was insinuated that $30 to hang a heavy mirror was a high price: "Merely hanging a large mirror set us back $30" Perfect example. Don't these people understand the concept of overhead?
I think one of these days the tables are gonna turn and trades people will be looked at as valuable well paid craftsman rather than the little people who make a living by getting dirty...
In the article it was insinuated that $30 to hang a heavy mirror was a high price: "Merely hanging a large mirror set us back $30" Perfect example. Don't these people understand the concept of overhead?
Yeah, I noticed that too. It kinda annoyed me. I do handyman work and I have a 2-hour minimum for new customers. For existing customers, the minimum is 1 hour, but it's still more than $30.
-Don
I can only imagine that the service guy was already in their house doing something else when he was asked to also hang the mirror. That's the only scenario that I can imagine where you could possibly get a reputable company to "hang a heavy mirror" for only $30. And the idea of somehow reporting that as an unduly high fee for such a task is shameful.
I agree that the vast majority of homeowners out there cannot wrap their minds around the concept that the guy working on their house has to eat, not to mention meet overhead.
I also am of the opinion that many of the elderly people (who make up for most of your typical "handyman" customers) are still remembering the days when you could get the kid down the street to mow your lawn for $5 . And to them .25 is a good tip for breakfast at Denny's. ("oh she gave us really good service, let's leave her .50 today") They're not really being intentionally chintzy, they just aren't really all that aware of how much inflation has affected wages. " If I were a carpenter"
I don't consider myself elderly but am middle aged. I understand your plight however, you have to look at what is happening to your customer base. Many have had to adjust to sticker shock on many fronts. Gas at $3 a gallon, electricity going up at a rate of 25% to 40% per year. Natural Gas doubling over night. While many people's pay checks are going down or they haven't had a raise in years.
You have to understand that we use to be able to get a plumber to come out and unclog a stubborn drain for well under $100. Now your lucky if the same folks show up and only charge $200. I can't go to my boss and say "Hey bud, you know my health insurance went way up, and I'm now paying twice as much for my electric, water, taxes, insurance, etc. I need an immediate raise of 40% just to stay even".
Many are without work or are now living paycheck to paycheck. So maybe we do understand. I know I understand that you guys need to make a living however, you need to understand that we are sometimes just trying to live.
I'm in the process of trying to have a new closet built adjacent to one of the bedrooms in my home. The closet will be built using the space in my garage. So two of the four walls are already built. The ceiling is already done. All I need is to have two new walls built and a floor. A new door way into the room and a light fixture installed. When I can get someone to show up to do an estimate they don't want to do a job unless they can charge $30,000. Others, don't really want the work so they give me bids that would insult a normal human. I'm trying to get over some of the more down to earth bids of around $2000 to $2500.
Yes, it's hard to stomach how much sheet rock, studs, plywood decking has gone up. Also, it's hard for the customer to fathom how much it cost's to do business. You have to realize in my area it's not uncommon to see builders, GC's, and such drop by several places to get unskilled labor and charge the Home Owner as if they were using licensed individuals to do the work.
There are areas in East Texas where the going labor rate is $10. Those folks still have to pay the high rates for cars, utilities, taxes, etc. Infrastructure is going up at an alarming rate and wages are no way keeping up. Most of our politicians don't have a clue as to what it costs to live today. I still can't understand how raising interest rates will cause the cost of gas to go down nor help the little guy make ends meet. It's not fair
I would love to be able to not worry about what a handyman charges to do a job. Also, I would love to not worry that my new job will not be outsourced to a guy in some foreign county who can live on $4000 a year because he doesn't have to pay a ton to support the local infrastructure.
So as you can see both sides have problems.
Just my 2 cents.....
I realize you responded to Mark, but I may be able to help you too understand your bids.
As one framming contractor said , we dont even respond to carport enclosurees and "such". Which remodeling is also a service he provides.
From that statement says that his compnany is not geared to handle small jobs but one like him might for a "price". In just trying to explain and help inform you that it might depend on who you call. If you called a carpentery service that only had one man or such as a good handiman or simply a carpenter working alone that didnt have to pay all the over head costs since that person worked alone , the price might be more reflective to your respect of what you think its worth. But in all reality the single business owner probably doesnt know his costs and is unintentionally leaving money on the table. Hes simply undervalueing his business which happens every day, but he may not provide insurance if it goes South or you may be trying to get blood from a turnip if the situation arises if you need to recover a loss, so you may be procedding with a cetain amount of gamble . If you chose a reputable business thats insured and bonded with proof then you would sleep easiar but would not like the reflection in the bill.
Thats the short of it with out going into detail.
Tim
Thank you for your reply. However, my comments were for those who think that there side is always right. There are bad HO's and bad Contractors. Some folks try and give you an honest estimate for a good job. Others try and take advantage.
I realize there are many things involved in getting the job done and done right. However, the HO's have to rely on the honesty and integrity of the handyman/GC.
In the state of Texas anyone who wants to be a handyman/GC can do so without any governing agency. We are at the mercy of these folks. When you ask for references they give you the ones that will put them in the best light. You seldom get the real picture till you start into the project and things go south.
I don't think it's fair to say that all HO's want stuff done for free or they want to always change things on the fly. In the last 20 years I had a lot of work done on my home. I've tried my best to communicate what I wanted and in turn expected the person who is doing the work to communicate with me. I understand that things are not always cast in stone. I know unexpected things crop up. However, I've witnessed over billing, poor workmanship, finger pointing, and flat out deception in working with the various building trades. That makes it hard for the good one to be taken at their word.
In this day and age, it's very hard to find a good reputable Handyman, GC, tradesman. Not to say there aren't any out there, it's just when there are so many folks that can get into the business without having to pay their dues it gives a bad rep to those trying to make an honest living.
So all I ask is that folks consider each side when these issues come up.
Just my 2 cents.......
I've been a handyman [my mother prefers the term "home repairs"} for 15 years in Atlanta, Georgia. I've been very satisfied with the work niche I have created; plenty of work, lots of variety , and the pay is fine for me- I charge $30 per hour plus $20 house call. The house call is important because then it doesn't matter if customer only has one small task for me and it takes 20 minutes- I'd make $30 . The best decision I made early was to limit myself to 3 mile radius from my home in an intown Atlanta neighborhood. Second best decision after trial and error was to limit what I take on. Although I can do many aspects of home repair I now pick and choose- no work higher than 10', no carpentry except really small stuff (door repair, shelves, small damage repair, etc). I prefer the plumbing and electrical the most because it's interesting to me and people are very happy with my prices for that type of work. And yes, I do know the codes, have copies of them all on my bookshelf, and I take the time on the job to do careful work that meets or exceeds code. I've often been called to correct work done by licensed pros and I've concluded that a license doesn't guarantee good work or use of quality materials. I probably could charge $40-$50 per hour but I would feel the need to work quickly at that price and I prefer slow and careful especially with electrical work. I highly recommend the "small home repair " business to anyone with skills/tools. Limit yourself to what you're good at, and limit how far you drive to a job. You also have to be organized and carry a good assortment of hardware, parts etc. Of course the trips to Home Depot or hardware store will often be necessary. One of the best parts of the business is going into a home, getting a list of small tasks to be done, doing them well, and getting paid by a grateful customer. Another plus is meeting someone and when you tell them what you do for a living , very often they want you to schedule them in because they have a list of home repairs they need done. I used to advertise in our neighborhood newspaper but then word of mouth was enough. Realtors also like to call me to take care of a list of problems that a home inspector found and buyer wants it done before closing, Lots of possibilities for work and it is fairly recession proof.
". I'm trying to get over some of the more down to earth bids of around $2000 to $2500. "
We agree on that point .
There are areas in East Texas where the going labor rate is $10.
I believe Katrina and Rita will definately change that in East Texas. Simply a move South on the Sothern portion will double that figgure easily as a minimum to maybe 100 dollars an hour . Roofing alone was stated to be 120 dollars per sqaure as the "going " rate. Any roofer I know that should call himself a roofer can average 1 sq an hour average on simple roof of 4/12 pitch which is common in those areas. We have speedsters that can average 2 sg an hour over the whole job if the roof is simple and if "they go to guns". I could always put a little over a sq an hour on but couldnt make a living doing it . Now they can in that area. Remember you are talking about a man that could handle your remodel alone with out help and be the man. Those guys are going to be well sought after in that area. Thats the type that carries an arsenal of tools and knowledge of different trades to complete a simple job like that . He must be able to frame , drywall, finish, paint , trim, and maybe move some wires or install some at your request or hire an electrician. Also be knowledgeable for the floor covering and be tooled or be able to sub it out. They would need to have established accounts and be trustworthy to other subs if he used them. You didnt price anyone at 10 dollars that could do that at any time in the recent history. Theres not such an animal for any of these guys would pounce on them for their own plaesures of a bottom line. You might be able to get someone to rake your leaves for that figgure. I realize you didnt say you expected to pay that at all.
I believe business always separates the ones who can and the once who cant or wont take care of themselves or thier business. The mortgage company was supposed to pay my taxes out of escrow and they have my money to do it . Today is the last day and Ive recieve a call yesterday they didnt do it . Several hours later "I" have taken care of what I trusted in a company to do what they said they would do. They failed miserably. Bottom line is that I was the one responseble for those taxes to get paid and not theirs for it would be my name in the paper for everyone to see I didnt pay my taxes. Ive settled the matter with them as my check book in the final balance . Ill be going else where with all my mortgages as there were several. They wont get the opportunity to make that mistake again . That is my judgement. I believe as hard as you try you will still have to look out for your self and your own business matters no matter who you hire . I know of no profession that is clear of blunders and that screams the message we have to keep educating our selves. I wish I could paint a better picture for you and your problems you have discussed but I think that some times you have to educate your self, do the best job calling you can do and even then roll the dice. If business was easy we would all be rich. <G>
However you are in a good place to learn to do this project your self if you should so choose. There are threads already written for you to act as a guide. I would rather see people like you try these jobs than paying money to fitness centers for a work out . It would release some frustration and make your self confident you kicked this problems butt and didnt have to gamble . We will help you with any portion there of if you choose to do it .
I agree theres allways another side to it but you can kick its butt before it kicks you.
Tim
I don't expect to pay $10 an hour however, I don't expect to pay $100 per hour either.
I wish I was handy when it comes to building however that gene was not passed on. I got the tech gene. I can do magic with a PC and PC Hardware. However, a lot of that has been taken away because our country feels they can get more bang for their buck overseas where labor rates are down around $1 per hour. The only problem is when things go amiss then I get called in at a much lower rate to fix the latest snafu and then am discarded till I'm needed again.
I don't mind paying a decent pay for a decent job. I'm not going to pay for the guys next car, house, summer home, and condo payments.
What worries me is that our kids will soon not be able to enjoy the American dream of owning their own home. It's only because of greed. In the last 10 years I watched the area grow at an enormous rate. Developers are raping the area at any cost. The homes are built to the lowest standard at the highest cost. I've seen new homes with severe plumbing problems as well as structural deficiencies. However, the developer made the optimum profit as they spend most of their time trying to see how many nickels and dimes profit they can ring out of a new home and put in their pockets. The workers suffer and are made to work like dogs.
Again, this is just my 2 cents....
You notice everyone is leaving this one alone ?
Youre gonna have to let it go. I can hear ya and I understand but its gonna eat ya if you dont leave it behind.
Just my two cents and Im done . Just trying to help. Were here if you should decide to tackle that closet.
Side bar;
I went to a class reunion a few years back. Visited with some of the most successfull , educated , etc. The kind that their wife dont work and drives a new car in a new home but shes got a degree? She played soccer mom to the kids and they are in college or out. Hes pulled the load all the way in finances. Few of them to mention lost it all in the stock market and also lost retirements. Others have no retirement or only part of in settlements. One friend was set by investing in realestate and wasnt touched by stock markets. He got cancer a year ago and hes gone now. Another has got a kid that lives in a nursing home and they cant have any more . One had an only son taken away. He said him and DW now hate each other . He knows thats why according to him because she couldnt let go. One lost a wife to cancer with two kids at home . His outlook is not good. Hopefully his two kids will pull him out but as yet hes recluse.
Now lets switch grears.
Maybe this requires a new thread but Ill try it here . Seems we are bringing in the call of the wild <G>
Just so happens with my rentals & doin repos Ive done a lot of this work over lets see nearly 15 years.
here we go;
Ive always had the problem with the right thing on the truck. Im there working on somthing Im loaded for and whammo theres three things Im not ! Ive tried going for bear and keeping that way but theres no way Im packin what I need . I have thought for a long time that plumbers are fast because they have it on the truck. I spend two trips trying to do what they are loaded to do and I really dont expect to change it too far unless one of you bright ones have an idea or a way you do it . Ive tried to cut 45s double compound with a skill saw and make do with what I had loaded and the list goes on. Any advice?
Tim
tim, get a van and load it up.
or,
get a bigger van and load it up more.
or,
plan better before you leave home.
or,
hire it out.
Course, this from a dumb carpenter.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The way you are going is part kidding but its the only thing Ive felt as well.
Brother says buy a bread truck. Its big enough to hold it and strong enough to haul it. He used to work on Marthas Vineyard up by Piffin. He swore by it , but not sure Im ready to drive a bread truck. <G>
My most serious thought is to buy a 16 foot tandem axle enclosed. Keep the most used tools on the truck , but whole job tools on the trailer. If that made any sense. Like I cant be carrying drywall tools and hot set powder plus a hopper and compressor in the truck. 8ft straight edge , long levels cant ride in the tuck for the heck of it to name a few.
You remember Tonto always getting in trouble when the lone ranger sent him to town? Thats me . Cant go to town and its a loss going back to the shop every time. Takes too long and its wasted time . Seems nothing productive ever comes from it . Its like the devil tempting me to lose my self in town or DW or the kid being even seen at the shop which in my back door. They see me there and think Im done for the day or have somthing in waiting for me that just jumps out. If I stay on the job and eat crackers and drink water Im safe from all those dangers.
Tim
I agree with Calvin, Get a van, a big one. If that's not big enough, then maybe something along the lines of a bread truck may be the ticket. Or there are an awful lot of used Ryder trucks running around these days. Just remember, you still have to be able to park it in peoples driveways, don't go overboard.
Years ago, I worked for a guy who provided me with a small enclosed trailer that was just big enough to hold most of the tools, fasteners, etc. I dragged it to the job with me every day and if I did need to haul any material I still had the truck with it's lumber rack. It didn't work all that bad." If I were a carpenter"
if I were buying a new van today, it would be the Dodge Sprinter. Looks good, easy in and out, high fuel mileage, plenty of room inside, Diesel engine that will probably outlive me...my existing van is a Ryder retireee. They have a policy of cycling them out of service at about 85K miles. bought mine at 82 and it shows 122K now but the odometer cable broke a few years ago...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I guess I may be looking at this differently than many people.
As far as being a Handyman, I do not feel that my price needs to be cheaper than the "real trades." I may end up being cheaper to the customer in the long run, because in one trip I can install a ceiling fan, fix a leaky faucet, fix a door that sticks, assemble some lawn furniture, and even move boxes to the garage.
I think the customers really like the one-stop shopping. And it's cheaper in the end, because otherwise they would need to hire an electrician (fan), plumber (faucet), trim carp (door) and neighbor kid (assembly & hauling), paying each one (except perhaps the kid) a minimum charge to show up and spend an hour. And THEN organize their time around each one of these service provider's schedule.
I also do not feel any negativity associated with the term "Handyman". I'm not saying it isn't out there, but if I have been exposed to it, I haven't noticed it. Just had a thought: maybe the negativity is coming from the "real tradespeople" and not from the customers who are actually paying.
Sure, there are customers trying to get by on the cheap, and calling evey name in the yellow pages, but this happens in ALL the trades, right? And sure, there are hack handymen, just as there are hack painters, carps, plumbers, electricians, etc.
I run my business professionally, carry insurance, pay income and self-employment taxes, and keep my overhead as low as possible. I don't have signage on my truck, but then again, I don't really need it.
I may be the exception in my business model, too. All the other Handyman business in the area (except a few) are franchises. These are just an office, secretary, insurance, etc. and they have a stable of subs. Depending on the call that comes in, the appropriate sub is dispatched. I choose not to do it that way. I like the variety and the hands-on work that I do, as well as the direct customer contact. Also, getting the check as soon as I'm done, plus several referrals.
I also may be the exeption in that I can do just about everything in just about all the trades. I'm not going to build an addition or a new house, and I've found that as jobs get bigger, my pricing is less competitive with the dedicated trades (e.g. a painting contractor would be cheaper and faster to paint a whole house), but I can basically do it all.
Leaky shower drain 2nd floor: call a plumber, have him fix it. Call a drywaller, have him fix the hole in the ceiling the plumber left. Call a painter, have him paint the drywall patch in the ceiling.
Or call Pete. (And while he's at it and has his ladder there, might as well replace that ugly light fixtrue that we've hated since we moved in. )
The 4 most expensive words in the English language... While you're at it...
And music to my ears.
BTW, I DO have the same problem of having everything I need on the truck, since my truck isn't set up like that. I guess a van would be optimal, but for now, I just review the project with the customer before I go there, and have the necessary tools and equipment. If they add something else when I get there that I'm not equipped for, well, I get to come back another day. And another "While you're at it...."
Hey, call me a Handyman. It's what I am.Pete Duffy, Handyman
Ok I just went to the Dodge website because I had never heard of a sprinter.
Wow! Now I want one! Looks like Dodge has actually designed a work vehicle after talking to real people doing real work and not those stupid "focus groups" that too many big corporations wast too much money on. I guess I haven't seen such practical application of customer feedback in a new design since they introduced the new ram trucks in the early 90s." If I were a carpenter"
I looked at the Sprinter also. It's bigger than I really need right now, but it's still tempting. I've really packed my van (and garage, shed and basement) as efficiently as possible in the meantime and I often need to fit the van in tight spaces.
One potential drawback to the sprinter would be putting ladders on top. You would need a ladder to retrieve the ladder.
-Don
That is true with a lot of vans and trucks already. American van has a swing down ladder rack that is neat.
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Don't put too much faith in Dodge designers. This is a Mercedes van that has dominated the service truck market in Europe for several years now and has just been introduced to America in the last couple of years through their partners at Chrysler. The fedex delivery fleet is going over to them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tim, just hire competent subcontractors.
If you really think about it: didn't you have a full truck set up just for drywall? Don't the plumbers have a full truck for plumbing? Dont' the electricians have a full truck for electrical work? Don't the trimmers and carpenters have full trucks for their work?
If you try to carry all of that, you'd need a tandem semi trailer. Get a 40'er and a 20' pup.
blue
Yes , I had a drywall truck and another painting truck. Both trucks were loaded down.
Yup just like plumbers carps , electricians , etc. They are nearly all thay way.
Its a great way to make someone else money Blue. Or save them money. So lets take a look at it ;
Mostly you are talking about being a sub contractor in the trucks above which Ive been there and done that . I know you have too. So here we go;
Subs work for GCs and have to "depend " on them and their "ways". You work for a GC that gives you 5 months of work per year and he asks for favors you dont feel like giving away and often dont feel like when he wants them . Think about it . Its his way or the hyway. He pays you when he feels like it and you are second in line as a sub. I realize framing is a good trade for that but painting and wallpaper isnt . Those two are paid on the final draw often times having to come back and working off a final punch list before the bill is paid. Sometimes you wonder if everything else the contractor and the owner will square. If it doesnt I might not get paid and I have no control over it.
Drywall is a quick money trade but has to be quick. Theres people who werent born here that has held the price down. That leaves a problem in hiring competent hangers and theres not enough money in it for me to do it any more. Often times people that were born here are undesireable to deal with and not trustworthy. Yes , I could pay more money to get it but it wouldnt be a business then , would it ?
On all trades Subs are on a bidding display.Subs actually bid against each other every day and are held to pricing to a great degree becuse of each other .How stupid we commit our self to that. The GCs have coffee talking about us and our pricing ." Hes a little higher but I can get more for my money from him or what ever. " The GC makes money from other people working under him and he must control it for there to be a bottom line for him. Thats mostly what the GC business is all about . Getner done cheaper and quicker which brings me to my next point.
GCs are the hardest to work for and at the cheapest price. A farmer told me one time that his business was the only one who bought retail and sold wholesale. Nope , I corrected him! Painters and drywallers pay the same price as anyone whose "building a house" . Just say that word and get a contractors discount. However we work for wholesale prices to the GC , because he charges money on top for "handleing me".
Finally you wont have to wonder what youve made that year, for GCs will send you forms to tell you, if it wasnt enough to put out top work for them at wholesale prices, on their time schedules , and payment options that fit "them".
At least you had your choice which major health care provider you used I guess.
Dealing with people to sub for that arent GCs are another set of problems you are also aware. For some reason they will just not get with the program.
DW which runs a big company said enough. If we did our business like you subs we would be out of business ! She meant it . Thats when I went into realestate , general contracting , and rentals. I also kept commercial accounts and did work for new ones under commercial only. Commercial is another litter of puppies.
Thats why.
Tim
I'm just getting into this thread Tim.I have had a 12'low cube van for many moons now, it's near worn out so I just bought a 14' V-prow AL double axle trailer to replace it. Partly because my business model now is that I have to leave it on job and run around meeting clients etc but leave tools and hardware for the crew. If I drove the van, it would have to leave with me or I would have to stay on site. The trailer solves that problem. I can haul it or leave it. There is an advatage in haveing it too for marketing. more tahn having a sign painted on side, but even with the van, when people saw me pull up top do a simple job like a door or gutter repair and open the doors on a fully equiped shop or hardware store, they knew they were not wasting time paying me top run back and forth for stuff. I heard that positicve observation in comparison to competitors several times, and I'm sure it added to my reputation for efficiency.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
any given thing is worth what people are willing to pay for it. very elemental economic principle. everything else is whiny conjecture. if it is worth less, someone else will be there to do it, bringing down the median price accordingly. "things are so expensive these days" is therefore a fundamentally inane argument.
edit: also, i drive a bread truck, i.e. stepvan. best thing going.
Edited 10/11/2005 11:54 pm ET by trimnailer37
. "The only problem is when things go amiss then I get called in at a much lower rate to fix the latest snafu and then am discarded till I'm needed again."
Interesting how our worlds are really the same. I have homeowners that try to DIY or hire the local fix it guy who has a pick up, ladder, no insurance. Then when things go amiss they call me in. Then I am discarded till the next below poverty level contractor screws up and I get called again. Tiring isn't it.
"I don't expect to pay $10 an hour however, I don't expect to pay $100 per hour either. "
Ok, let me ask you this. Why not $100? What if every good contractor in your area charged $100. Would you not pay it? Just do without? Do it yourself?
I am lousy with a PC. My guy charges $45 an hour to work on mine. I charge $50. He has a work bench and $100 worth of cheap tools. I have 3 trucks and 30k in tools. My overhead is massively higher than his.
My risk factor is huge compared to his. He screws up and 1k worth of retail gear and its fixed. I screw up and easily can cost myself 5-15k. My workers comp cost is 1k a month, never had a claim. His is 0 because he works alone. My liability insurance is double his. So who is worth more? What am I paying for?
I will tell you what I am paying for. The same thing you are. What you can't or choose not to do. The expertise. Is it worth a $100 an hour? If you want it bad enough.
I am in business to make money. Not service homeowners that think they should set my rates based on their beliefs as to what the economy or the government policies are doing to them. I will charge as much as I can and still have a steady flow of business. To do otherwise would be irresponsible to my employees and my previous customers who rely on me to service there needs.
Last thought. Last January and February we were dead. No work to speak of at all. Since then we have been booming. If I didn't make extra money last year and held it back I would not have had the funds to carry me through to the good times, hence out of business. I could have charged my customers 8-10 an hour less last year, made some of them happier and been working for someone else this year. You don't like what the quotes are? Don't pay them. If I thought my PC guy wasn't worth it I wouldn't pay him. DanT
IMHO, the best reply in this thread Dan. Well done...
Ok, let me ask you this. Why not $100? What if every good contractor in your area charged $100. Would you not pay it? Just do without? Do it yourself?
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match. My comments are that folks should charge a decent rate for a job. We have GC's that don't do good work nor follow the rules and charge poor folks a ton. Others charge the going rate and do a great job.
Don't mix me up with a PC Tech. If I make mistakes in my work it effects Billions of dollars worth of business for the company I work for. However, I don't get paid as much money as the guy that scuffles papers around and couldn't make a decision if his life depended on it. Is it fair, no. seldom is life fair.
I don't mind paying the going rate for the job. However, would you be happy if you needed your PC for something really bad and I came over and charged you $10,000 and screwed up your PC and then told you "Well go ahead and sue me, I don't have anything in my name. Anyway if you somehow get a judgement I won't pay anyway. Beside, if you were so picky, why didn't you do it yourself". That's what a GC did at our home.
I am in business to make money. Not service homeowners that think they should set my rates based on their beliefs as to what the economy or the government policies are doing to them. I will charge as much as I can and still have a steady flow of business. To do otherwise would be irresponsible to my employees and my previous customers who rely on me to service there needs.
Who isn't in business to make money. I don't work because I don't have anything better to do. I'm supporting the federal government who is desperately trying to take away my livelihood. I support an extended family because ,like many folks, they can't charge their employers the "GOING RATE" even though the rate of everything is going up. I'm saying that you don't always get what you pay for. Just because you charge $200 per hour doesn't mean your work is worth it. There are many craftsmen who are underpaid just because they can't get the "GOING RATE" in the area. Some folks aren't worth $5. The problem is , at least in Texas, you can't tell who they are till after the damage is done.
Last thought.......
Just because some folks are busy doesn't make them good at what they do. I know many folks who are busy because they are the only game in town. The GC that ripped us off is still in business and is probably busy. Again, I don't mind paying a reasonable rate for good work. What I need done doesn't require a master carpenter so I don't feel I should pay for that type of work. You wouldn't pay the guy that puts new plugs into your vehicle the same rate as the master mechanic.
I'm not trying to ruffle a bunch of feathers just making a observation. When I need a Master Carpenter to do the work I will be glad to pay his rate. However, I'm not going to pay the Master Carpenter rate for someone to build me a small tool shed in my back yard.
Just my 2 cents.....
Hey Tim...
FWIW, I don't think you are starting (or are in, by BT standards) a pissing match. It's a common, and sometimes heated source of discussion here and personally I think it's a worthwhile thread.
PaulB
I agree.....
Both sides have good arguments. Everyone would love to be independently wealthy and not have to worry about what things cost. I hear every day how much things have gone up. I'm located not very far from Louisiana and have had family in the path of the recent hurricanes. I worry about the folks trying to rebuild their live. Of course things are going to go up. However, I don't think we were put on God's Green Earth to see how much we can extract from folks or take advantage of misfortune.
I think that greed has put us in this situation. If we don't put a stop to it the whole thing is going down the drain.
My ole grandpap use to say "A good day's wage for a good day's work". I've always tried to live by that.
Just my 2 cents.....
Im starting to enjoy this .
First you bring in a homeowners point who has been ripped off and you are still needing red azz pills . Im ok with it . I would be really whizzed off if you ruined my computer and got off scott free . Its not much , but Im pretty proud of my puter. <G>
Its good to listen to both sides and I certainly see yours.
I see Dans too. [I consider him a friend on here ] I think as far as Im concerned his effort is some what mis-directed. Hes also telling the truth but I would not present it like that . I would still make 50 off you if thats what I wanted to make or do it somewhere else. But you wouldnt know it and thats the difference to me . Yes you might be able to calculate it later after I did the job. Which brings my point;
A guy named Sonny taught us about preceived value . Ive been a follower ever since. hes over at JLC now.
If I told you that I would assemble a ceiling fan and hang it for 50.00 for your wife or someones elses wife, they would definately pay it. Whether you would or not. So lets say that the precieved value of that job is expected to come in that area to most folks or are ok with it after hearing the price for it is accepted generally . So to the common public, its paid nearly every time its priced which means the job effectively sells for that figgure. Whether someone might want to argue if its worth it is beside the point, because its sells.
Lets just say that your wife OKed it and accepted a work order.
I show up and have a special tool that can whizz it together and its hung in 15 minutes while you are writing a message on Break Time and look up to see Im already gone . Providing you liked the job , would you be whizzed?
To me if a job is sold on precieved value and a job is completed well done , it doesnt matter if Dan made 200 an hour or 10. But 200 an hour is what the light fan brought down. Years ago I patched drywall for 65.00 per hole &35.00 per crack. That adds up like running one room on carpet special for 49.95. Those prices are set up to win on volume and lose leader adverizing on singles because the ceiling fan would also cause down time between jobs. If your wife added a new faucet to the kitchen sink and repairing a leaking tub faucet then the three would be a little lick priced separtely. Or if their was another job or two on the same block.
On the other hand Dan says 50 bucks an hour and youre thinking 20. You two have got a problem getting together. I would want Dan to prove it on a bid I accepted as value. I dont care how good he says he is or how many tools hes got in the van. Thats doesnt mean anything to me other than a qualifier that hes equipped to do the job. The truck and whats on it are a big impression to me .
Its hard to tell a lie on a vehicle. John Jones , license #00000 Bonded and insured . Doing business at the same address for 16 years , or what ever is written pretty well is on the money. Take the number off the truck and call it in or in this state look it up on the computer. It will show current information. Ask for the insurance comany and # plus the bonding agency. Run John Jones address in the phone book and start back on older books to see how long hes lived there. Retrive his address from the phone book and look it up in map quest. Drive by his house. Do you know someone on his street? Call the lumber yards and hardware stores for reference. List goes on. Their case file with you will get built.
Take responsebility and do your job in selecting a contractor and you stand less chance of being disapointed.
Tim
I agree with Dan to a point. I wouldn't cheat anyone. However, I don't want to be cheated. I'm taking bids on my little project. I was making a comment based on my findings. All the folks that have shown up to make bids are GC's and have worked in this area. I would think that the bids for the same work would be close and not all over the map.
As for the contractor that ripped us off, I spent nearly a year getting bids and running down info about the GC's. I contacted the BBB and all their references. I even went to some of the folks completed jobs to see how the work was done and how they handled the problems that arise. We still ended up with the carpet people not paid as well as the tile folks. Even though the contractor was paid for the work. He got his 30% for doing the boss work. However, it seems he didn't back the work nor pay his subs. That doesn't seem to be a problem here as non-skilled labor can be found for $60 a day (no benny's nor insurance). So he can always get labor and pass them off as tradesmen. He had a laborer do our electric work and plumbing. Didn't pull any permits.
Am I saying that everyone is like that....NO. Just that it's a shame that a few ruin it for the rest. Now we have to grill who ever does the work and get every minute detail down in writing instead of trusting the GC to handle his subs or make suggestions as to how to do something better.
I could go on and on. However, the point is like my grandpap use to say " A good day's pay for a good day's work".
That's all I expect....
Again..... Just my 2 cents.....
Good article and good thread. And Pricing for ‘perceived value’ http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=21655.1 was one of my favorite all time threads here that I still keep bookmarked
"Don't mix me up with a PC Tech."
That was just my example of a trade I thought you could relate to. I was pointing out the disparagee of the various risks in business and how they don't pan out. But since you pointed out you don't want to be confused with a PC tech, ok. Most of us here would rather not be compared to your GC either.
"Others charge the going rate and do a great job."
Ok, who in your mind determines going rate? Is that what you think is fair or what the contractor thinks is fair?
" I support an extended family because ,like many folks, they can't charge their employers the "GOING RATE" even though the rate of everything is going up."
We all make choices in life. I choose to be in business. Your "extended family" chooses to work for others. You choose to support them. Your choice, their choice and my choice. No one makes any of us do any of it.
"What I need done doesn't require a master carpenter so I don't feel I should pay for that type of work. You wouldn't pay the guy that puts new plugs into your vehicle the same rate as the master mechanic."
How do you know if it does or doesn't? I wouldn't know if I needed a master PC tech or a rookie. Maybe you are smarter than I. But here is the easy answer. Don't want a master carpenter. Don't call one.
In your last message you summed up what I thought all along but wasn't sure of. You simply want a good job done at a cheap price. How do I know that? You have no previous contractors that want to work with you again after a number of tries. You claim to have never found one that is honest and worth what they were paid. And you want to determine what level of skill you need and what it is worth. And you are "bidding" the work to find the "right" contractor. BS, you are shopping price only.
I hope you find what you are looking for. But from experience I can tell you that when someone relates to me that they have been screwed by numerous contractors over the years and can't find anyone good I regard that as a red flag. You are right, there are numerous bad contractors. But the good ones don't come cheap and are worth being loyal to. DanT
dan
<<<<But from experience I can tell you that when someone relates to me that they have been screwed by numerous contractors over the years and can't find anyone good I regard that as a red flag. You are right, there are numerous bad contractors. But the good ones don't come cheap and are worth being loyal to.>>>
in 30 years , the only guy i ever wound up at the lawyers with was the kind you described above...
i get real wary when they start with the litany of other contractor's sinsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well said.
Dan
Maybe you misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that all contractors are bad nor are all good. I'm saying that I'm trying to find a good honest one based on word of mouth, good references, etc. I'm not just shopping price. I'm shopping for someone I can trust to do a good job at a reasonable rate.
Again, I reiterate, You don't need a master carpenter to put up 2 walls and a floor. I'm just going by what the contractors have said that have come out to bid the job. If they don't know what they're doing how am I suppose to know?
I have some background in building from my father and if he hadn't passed several years ago this would be a moot point. We would have tackled this job ourselves.
As for PC work I'm sure if you needed to have a memory upgrade you could perform that function. You wouldn't pay a guy $65 travel and $65 and hour to perform that function. You wouldn't call in a Master Tech at over $100 an hour.
As for having bad luck with all contractors, that isn't true. I had very good luck with the roofing contractor as well as the Windows contractor. However, they don't build things for folks. The one I did have problems with was forced on me by the insurance company. I had two others picked out that would have done the job right but the insurance company said they wanted too much. So I ended up having to pay the tile contractor and the carpet folks because the GC didn't. They both turned the GC into the BBB and the carpet folks tried to sue him. I don't know how that turned out.
As for the going rate, it's determined by the industry based on the area. Folks that do this type of thing every day. I've called various GC's in the area to find out what they charge per ft to this type of thing. Also, I'm relying on what the GC's that have come out to ge me estimates as to what the rates are.
My point is when some one who comes out and says that they will do the work for 2000 and another says 5000, I want to know what the differences are and why there is such a big difference. All things being equal and I'm comparing apples to apples then who in their right mind would pay 5000 for a job that should be done for 2000. Both buy there supplies at HD or Lowes. They both have the same area to draw from for labor. I'm not asking some guy from California to build me a closet nor am I expecting the closet to be built for 100.
I don't need contractors on call as I don't have work done every week. Contractors in this area come and go and not many are in business for more than 5 years. As I already stated anyone can be a contractor in Texas. All they have to do is get some business cards and start advertising. So does that mean that because they're now contractors that I should just say "Well charge me anything you want". Let's be reasonable. You can't tell me that folks in your area don't have more than one contractor bid a job. I don't know anyone that doesn't bid jobs out.
I've only been screwed by one contractor not many. I've had work done by some good folks just not ones that can build me a new closet. The siding guys thought that I was a very good client. Same for the roofing folks and the windows folks. The tile folks said that they would work for me anytime. The folks that did my yard would work with me.
Even though I had problems with the one contractor he didn't have trouble getting paid or getting his money on time. I'm not the one that the city issued fines for not getting their permits or having the job inspections. The GC was paid to do his job. If he couldn't do his job then he shouldn't have charged the 9000 for the job. He bragged that this was an easy job and that he didn't need to be on the site often. His Forman was paid $10 and hour and he tried to get the job done right. I felt sorry for the guy. He finally quit and went into business for him self. I contacted him to do the work be he told me that he wasn't working for regular folks. He is working for one of the several building groups in the area. Matter of fact that's were most of the good talent has gone. Folks that need something small done can't find many folks to do the work.
I'm sure that you don't mind paying $3 a gallon for gas as "Hey those folks have to support all the folks working for them". I live where these folks make gas and they don't get paid anymore for there jobs if gas is $1 a gal or $3. So where do you suppose those profits are going.
Just my 2 cents.....
timby...in the time you've spent posting about this , you could have gone to the lumberyard/ big box...
built the walls.... taken them apart ,
rebuilt the walls..
sheetrocked it..
taped it 5 times instead of 3.. and painted it to suit
and saved yourself the $800 i would have charged you
it ain't rocket science... but it does require diligence...
if you want to pay hack rates.. hire a hack
if you want something done right , you have to pay someone who will do it right
they are not the same person
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well said. DanT
"I have some background in building from my father and if he hadn't passed several years ago this would be a moot point. We would have tackled this job ourselves."
I've heard statements like this before. I've even had people say to me "I would do it myself, but I don't know how". Usually, I just say something like "well then, what would I do". I expect to be paid for what I do AND what I know (I don't tell them this part because it sounds confrontational). If I see a doctor and he/she does nothing more than give me a prescription, they have actually done very little, but I paid for their knowledge.
I try to be patient with potential customers who try to minimize the amount of work that needs to be done. Mostly because I have been extremely lucky to get just about the best customers anyone could want. Of course, it's a 2-way street. I'm not just there to do the job, I'm there to make them happy. When I'm successful, and I usually am, not only are they willing to pay, but they are actually eager. I almost never have to remind customers that they still owe me payment.
Even when I feel like a potential customer is just trying to use me for information, I will give them what they ask. I'll tell them some of the things that they need to consider if they do it themselves, I'll tell them which products may work better, and I'll even tell them how to address some detail they don't know how to do (assuming that it only takes a few moments). This has resulted in more sales gained than lost.
The cost of living is high where I am (central New Jersey). If people can't afford me, there are places where the day laborers hang out. My kinds of customers wouldn't even consider it. I come recommended (since all of my work is by referral). That, by itself, is more than half way to getting the job.
I know I'm rambling a bit... no point stopping now...
One of the challenges that I often encounter is when customers say things like "it doesn't have to be fancy" and then point out things that they think could be done better. So yes, it does have to be fancy. At least fancy enough to make them happy. 6 months from now, they'll forget how much they paid me, but they won't forget that "not so fancy" piece of work I did for them.
So, it's a simple closet that needs to be built. I would have to see it to do an estimate, but I'm imagining all kinds of challenges here: busting open an existing wall in a living space, re-framing it for a door, new framing for the floor of the closet (joists?), a new floor for the closet (and continuity with existing floor) new wall framing, running new electric, new drywall (the old drywall will probably have to come down for the new framing), taping and spackling inside a closet (no one likes to work inside closets), insulation, new drywall on the garage side of the closet, hanging a door, casing it out, re-installing baseboard. Oh yeah, and painting.
That's just off the top of my head, there might be more (like existing wires in the wall). The point is that "concept simple" and "detail simple" are miles apart. I'm not saying that you ever said it was simple, but everything in your posts has that tone.
Like most everyone else, I'm just here to offer constructive advice,
Don
Edited 10/13/2005 6:29 am ET by DonCanDo
Extremely well said.
Many jobs are like the rock that sticks out of the ground an inch, but is a boulder underneath, unseen.It's not always a 1/2 hour job. May not require a master carpenter, but do you want the guy with little experience to do the work?At least paying for the master you should expect a good job.
"concept simple and "detail simple"-what a great way to put it. I always run into customers who talk about "just put in some 2x4's", "throw some sheetrock up" and "If you are a good drywaller, then you can cover up everything."The problem is that the materials we use are commonplace, everybody has used them, and everybody is either an expert themselves who "doesn't have time" or has some genius relative who can eat sawdust, crap lumber and build anything instantly.The question is: when I run into these people, can I convince them of what it takes to do a good job, do I jack my price to compensate for the inevitable problems or just cut and run?
Dan, you might have just convinced a lot of guys in her to be a PC guy!
blue
I am sure I am being thick headed but what is a PC guy? DanT
the example you used was your PC guy at $45 /he with low overhead and you at $50/ with huge overhead
or , as blue wud say, yur losing yur f'ng memoryMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Exactly Mike. Dan layed out perfectly why the carpentry business isn't really a business anymore. The PC guys business plan makes sense. To duplicate the PC guys business, we'd have to be charging more than 200 per hour, every day, every hour.
blue
Yep, clear as a bell now. Sorry for the slow thinking. Rough week and all that lol. DanT
Gee,..Are you from Warwick NY too.....I just got word they are building 40+ homes aropund the corner from me.Down the road they just started a 400 ac sub-division of "Luxury"homes.I have trimmed some of these houses they are building around here and I am not impressed. The builders are all about profit...I dont trim anymore for them because they are too cheap to pay for a professional (White) person and are almost exclusively hiring people from south of the border with no insurance,or skill...on top of that I can't get a white kid to work for $10/hr !!!!! while I'm teaching him !..I love to work and take great pride in what I do .The "old timers" I have worked with all tell me I have talent and won't take on big jobs without my help...why are we so focused on $$$ and what we have instead of what we have done and who we are......I'm going to church today because its Sunday..to thank God for giving me another day and a wonderful wife and great kids and step kids....and another chance to do his work.
From the first time I read the article I was under the assumption that Doctor left part of the original out since it was actually referened from their site . I too have thought there was more to it and no one would think a trip charge of 30 to hang a mirror was high. I think that smells .
Tim
Edited 10/11/2005 9:56 am ET by Mooney
Personally, I do think $30 is alot to hang up a mirror ... BUT.. that's the price you have to pay if you are either physically incapable or mentally unwilling to learn how to hang up the mirror yourself. EVERYTHING is expensive these days INCLUDING LABOR. Most people who are willing to pay someone $30 to hang up something as trivial as a mirror are probably making $50-$100/hr anyway. I agree with you that they shouldn't expect to pay less for your time than they expect for their time...no matter how excessive it is.
That depends on the mirror too. I have hung one that cost over ten grand at an antique auction. They guy was awfully nervous watching me climb a step ladder with that carved gilt-edged monstrosity. He was making ME get nervous, so I sent him in the other room to wait out the delivery of his baby.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I hope you charged more than $30 then... :-)
I think one of these days the tables are gonna turn and trades people will be looked at as valuable well paid craftsman rather than the little people who make a living by getting dirty...
I used to think so, too.
30 years, and still waiting.The heck, you say?
I think one of these days the tables are gonna turn and trades people will be looked at as valuable well paid craftsman rather than the little people who make a living by getting dirty...
We already have that situation. Massive labour shortage. Even bigger skilled labour shortage.
Huge gap in the apprentice system they are furiously trying to plug. Wont work cos ya cant get 10 years experience any faster than 10 years. Then you got all the new house builders who couldnt cut a rafter or fix a window to save themselves.
Makes me happy. Doing a job at the moment. I was the more expensive. The customers have hired monkeys in the past ( unwittingly ) and been less than happy. Show folks that you know your shid, clean up and be polite...........word gets round.
In Victorian England the class system had the working class being graded as considerably less than the upper class. ( doctors, lawyers etc ) However it was not at all uncommon for the trades to make more than the supposed 'top end'.
My thoughts are, if it was so damn easy and the customer is such an expert, then what am I doing here?
Respect for the skills should be a given when you are dealing with the right customer.The other sort can have the monkeys and cheap work.
Whatever it was.................I didnt do it.
Interesting, so why is it "No one wants to be called a handy man?" We tried to start a handyman operation but it never really took off for us which I primarily attributed to two things; we didn't market it and we were never really able to get the right guy (or gal) for the service. We didn't use the moniker handyman though and instead called our service Paradigm Housewrights. We're thinking of going at it again but approaching it with a real business plan this time rather than just dabbling in it as a whim.
There's a good set of articles on the HomeTech site regarding the handman business (and I thought Bill Hartmann's Defining "handyman work" topic here was a good source of information and ideas too).
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Im tickeled you made this thread and made that imput. Ill read up on it too.
You and I have been here for quite a spell. Long enough to know what kind of money is out there in some different locations.
Because Ive dealt with common every day easy problems of rentals and repos over a number of years and of course the houses Ive bought and sold plus lived in Ive gained some experience I took for granted. Im not too bad a plumber now covering all aspects of used homes. I wont go into it but Ive learned many things that are really small compared greater things others have accomplished. Still an arsenal of over all knowledge that before now I just used for my self on home and my properties. I came in the other day and she asked what I had done . Well, to day, I stretched and repaired some carpet. I took the dishwasher apart and dislodged a blockage. Took a garbage disposal out and replumbed with out another one. [different fittings] I disasembled an ice maker and its on the shop table , but quit , whats for supper? She said the dryer quit.
I started learning all these little things by getting my feet wet. But the real saviour has been the internet ! Ive been finding the same appliances online and often being able to look up the schematics of a particular model. Then a parts number list. With the building and remodeling knowledge Ive already been given as a gift the internet has saved the day on many occasions .
So Im giving the business a serious thought or two. <G> I believe the real money is in running such a business though with trucks and a payroll. Dont know yet.
Tim
While I think finding someone to be our handyman was one of the key resons our efforts at it failed since a handyman has to be such all all around specialist I think it's interesting that the guy who founded the company that I just cited in my post to PaulBinCT didn't come from the trades at all!
He came from the banking industry!
He saw a business opportunity. While he may not even be a handyman himself he's running "handyman business"! They are two different things. While in a one person operation it's essential to have a handyman's skill set there's another set of business skills that are required too. Perhaps most notably building personable relationships with the customers and knowing the numbers you have to hit.
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Speaking from the physical side which Im not losing sight of the business end,
I had mentioned earliar about being equipped to handle so many different things. One to have the knowledge but another to have it on the truck. I realize running trim in a room would be a set up from the shop and lumber yard. But what about all the things that are not? My main problem is having it on the truck such as a plumber has fittings and valve repair kits. Grease to dress fittings such as disasembling an out side faucet. Dont for get the water meter key and turn off wrench for the hard ones. The main problem I have had is spending too much time running to the lumber yard and mainly the hardware store.[plus shop] No one benifits from that running .
Your thoughts?
Tim
Im fixin to be gone so I will have to get back to ya .
I ate up all the reading you mentioned .
For you to think about till we talk again.
No one wants to be called a dadgum handy man but thats what they want .
I figgure people think of Walmart the same way.
You included a name I didnt get , what about them?
Next I can get someone to run crown in a room , I cant hire one man to stretch carpet and revalve a sink faucet, plus chagne out a hot water heater. But when you get the fence , deck , trim , replace commode calls, you gotta go do it . How are you going to find those men?
Tim
Tim Mooney - "
Next I can get someone to run crown in a room , I cant hire one man to stretch carpet and revalve a sink faucet, plus chagne out a hot water heater. But when you get the fence , deck , trim , replace commode calls, you gotta go do it . How are you going to find those men?"
That's another problem. I think not only does a handyman operation need to have someone in-house who can do just about everything the operation needs to attract and develop a core of specialized external partners (aka subs) to do the things the in-house staff can't. How do you go about attracting that kind of 3rd party person or company to work with you?
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How do you go about attracting that kind of 3rd party person or company to work with you?"
Im not sure but Im thinking they have to be in your stable or you cant run. I think when someone calls you need to go and thats it . Im not a fan of saying I cant handle it .
Looks like Ive got some more reading you left me with to catch up on. <G>
Another thing ,you and Mike kill me sometimes . You posted a site that shows how much per hour and you say hes doin just fine . Sounds just like your thinkin, but I was thinkin different. I think the head guy does the lookin and the priceing . The other site said NO that its too costly and you need to sub it. I dont question that too hard but would like better control of "MY" customers. In the site you posted I would be partnering . Thats rubbin me raw thinkin about it . What says you? <G>
I would rather give bids and keep the hourly in the pocket hidden.
Tim
From the Lean apporach;
Let us help build ourselves and each other if we are successsful.
My vision of what lean means primative ;
In my spray equipment must be adjustable wrenches to tighted , loosen , and change guns, tips, fittings , hoses and the like . Even the maitenence of the pump parts if latex paint clogs the ball valve.
Are you saying that a box be prepared to "go out " with the spray equipment with tools that could e used elewhere such as adjustable wrenches , wire brushes and oil never to leave that box? All the while more adjustable wrenches would have to be elsewhere along with the other things , so are you suggesting more inventory of tools ?
I have invisioned every thing in boxes and have that to a point but its always a question as to where to draw the line. I have a trailer with a ramp and have several dollies. When I was in the wholesale produce business loads were built off order lists . Such as ;
total number of customers ordered ,
24 boxes of tomatoes
16 boxes of lettuce,
4 50# onions yellow
2 20# bags red onions
etc.
I drew the load from the cooler and dry storage floor with a dolly. Several boxes to the load. Up the ramp I went into the trailer often carrying 6 items at a time . A trailer load was built in several minutes and ready for transport. If our shop was that floor and every thing that was small and moble was pachaged for a dolly it would be quick. Of course the big items such as a table saw would have to be ready for a dolly or have wheels to go whizzing up the ramp . This would also be a parts inventory with sheets for pricing .
Is that what you are suggesting ?
Tim
Tim,
This is the truck we use for our handyman/remodeling business. We have 2, this one is a 3/4 ton and the other is a one ton. The one ton has the same body but is 16" wider in the box. They are both 12' long. We also use a 3/4 ton pick up with a Stahl body on it but for what you are talking about these are hard to beat. And they have A/C. A must I assume in your neck of the woods. :-) DanT
dan... how's cum you don't have your signage on the rear ?
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nice looking truckMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Hey, thats a pretty good question. Errr Ummm. Amazing how someone else can look at something you view as ok and point out the obvious. Guess I will get with the sign people next week. Thanks! DanT
Dan, thats the nicest looking work truck Ive ever seen as far as "geter done " attitude. Very nice and really serious looking . Good clean ride too!
Tim
Thanks. We actually make more money having them because when you are at someone house and they do the "oh by the way" for a light switch or something we usually have common items on board. And the look of the truck seperates us from the pickup and ladder group so we actually sell a few jobs based on that.
Piffin mentioned the Sprinter. I looked at them and liked them. The reason I went with these is they are 5-7k cheaper, the tool boxes on the sides mean you don't have to get up and down in the truck for everything (a big plus on a day when you visit 3 or 4 sites in a day) and we don't have a Chrysler sprinter dealer around so service was an issue. Also these come with some shelving and racks already included. DanT
Tim
I know those men exist though they may be few. I dont mean this as an insult but from your posts in the past I get the sense that your wallet doesnt crack open too readily and I wonder would you be willing to pay some one with these hard won skills what they are worth, to work on your properties?
The property management type companies in my area are frequently advertising for people with these skills, but they wages they will pay are an insult.
I've gotten away from doing handyman type work but when I did a utility bed pickup served me well. A thing I didnt like about all these small jobs in one day is having nearly every tool I own on the truck along with materials and debris etc. I look to the guys who get the most done with the fewest tools.
I always pull up a chair when you start a thread for the straight talk that ensues
Tom
I guess you got me figgured out . <G>
No, I try not to turn loose of money. Ive got a banker friend that lives next door to me that told me several years ago; Theres no difference in tracking money that was saved or made in your final balance. I often call it offense and defense. You wont learn the business unless you master defense first."
Im still working on the first part he gave me to work on. Seems every time in business the money thats clear is in savings and money made is a bet . If I can get odds in my favor , I dont call it betting. Like 75 percent or better. I call it house is set up to win. I dont really like gambling .
The handy work problems you speak of is in part the same as rentals and rehabbing properties. A difference Dan T and I have up front for sure. I see now hes set up for the work and advertises for it . But hes ready for it it looks like. The part of his awsome set up for me to have problem with is to trust a hand with the truck and all those tools ! The other is having help that can handle those tools and make money plus the intrustment of the customer . Three very valuable things to intrust to another . I can see why now he prefers to work for people though and I continue to buy properties as another difference. We both do each but prefer the different. Im just now looking at the retail part of his working business as priortity.
Thanks for the compliment.
Tim
tim.....
i think one thing that a lot of have as a big difference is wether we work alon, or we have employees..
i have always worked for companies that had employees.. when i went into residential const. my boss/partner had 8 employees.. i ran one crew.. and another guy ran the other..
every Monday morning started with a line up and an inspection...it was just like the Army..
anyways... since i went on my own , i've always had employees.. sometimes 5.. once or twice i got down to 1..
now.. having employees is a very valuable thing.. i can take on lot's of jobs that the one-man band can't.. and as long as i charge enough to make a profit on our endeavors, i can continue having employees..
it is very difficult with employees, but the rewards are very high, you can actually run a business.. you can be absent from the job site and work will progress.. you can take a vacation, and work will progress..
i know lot's of you guys have tried employees and it didn't work out... but managing workers is just another skill you learn.. and one of the things about having people who can manage lot's of job skills is training , and development..
bringing new guys along.. taking care of the experienced help... making it possible for them to make a living doing what they like doing.. building things..fixing things
i would guess that that is probably the most major decision anyone in business has to make.. to go it alone.. to do it with subs.. or to have employees..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Actually I was referring to the constant charging and pricing .
To put in bold letters 120 per hour in a lead add , is a statement of separation. I have used that type of advertizing because I dont want to deal with the riff raff .
Rent house is a nice home
Heres the location address. [Im proud of the locations so go look]
Heres how much rent it is and the deposit. [ Its very high for the area]
References required. [Required. They also sign a permission slip for me to run their credit]
Sorry at this time no pets . [I am of a very strong odor on this subject as I will also evict on the spot and I tell them that and it breaks all terms of the agreement. They lose all deposts and monies if they are caught with a pet . Im very up front with it.]
You get the feeling reading that add that I am qualifying you and you are going to have to pass a test and Im picky about tennants. Regretfully I had to do it . It was either bad tennants win and I lose or vice versa. Number of calls went down and I also lost tire kickers almost. When they call there is not a lot left to talk about but giving me money. Im sure Ive ran off some good renters before I met them. With the exception of one property Ive got some nice stuff and its been hard to maintain that standard. I guess to say I didnt completely run my business off in doing it because it just takes one to rent it and betting chances are you wont find any thing in that classification as nice. The properties stand well with competition and often beat them easily. Im sure Im not the one who beats other lanlords! <G>
So,.. to put a price out there does make statements too. I can see that. To put a high price out there makes a statement that you are possibly worth the money or you would not openly adverise it . 120 an hour would be the talk of this town in every coffee shop. One time we had an old painter that worked for the public. Often times people would say , "We couldnt afford Bill but we are happy with the job we got. " He sold high in price and appearance of himself. Truth of the matter was he just did good work that was not great . He was really a production painter working for the pubic and made a lot of money because the people had a vision of him that was high as he attended local functions and always acted professional. He did no fancy work. Thinking back , maybe he bested his competition in quality though as they were neither any thing to write home about.
So I wonder about open pricing in this business instead of using percieved value.
Ive always thought running a crew with a business was another business all together. I know it is all about management. DW who I look up to runs about 65 plus the business. She knows quite a bit about the business but her very strongest point is that she is a minute manager. She reminds me of a parakeet in a cage always flying to the other side looking things over. She admits to handling problems day in and out. She is constantly changing a problem to a solution no matter how trivial. She treats some ones personal problems with as much care as she does the bottom line. To me she doesnt really deal with the guts of the business enough but to fence the areas around it like a sheppard looking over a flock.
Tim
<<<<She is constantly changing a problem to a solution no matter how trivial. She treats some ones personal problems with as much care as she does the bottom line. To me she doesnt really deal with the guts of the business enough but to fence the areas around it like a sheppard looking over a flock. >>>>
yep.. i resemble that remark....well..... maybe not so much a shepherd as a sheep dog
time to go nip some heels....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So old wise one {G} ,
Would you lead out with an amount per hour or bid in jobs labor and material with perceived value? Lets say average jop would be 500 dollars.
Tim
i'd figure the job... figure the hours.. the labor would be my rate x labor burden
( gross labor + matls + subs ) x markup for Overhead & Profit.. then i'd give them a price for the job
i really don't like charging an hourly rate... even though i do in some cases...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
OK.
Have you thought about the jobs not being that large for you to be bidding ? Allowing an invisable figgure of a 500 dollar average per job total. Would you still be interrested in bidding 5 jobs a day at that ?
I do like the bidding also but have the above problem.
The above discussion stated the homeowner had a problem with paying over a set amount of labor per hour. GCs have the same problem as in my post to Blue . Anytime rates are "standardized then people expect that price such as milk , bread , etc. People here know whats shops charge and how much labor pays in plants. They know enough to expect a wage that its common to the area. They dont however realize the cost of doing business . As you know. I think it best not to discuss it with them hourly .
Tim
Edited 10/17/2005 1:57 pm by Mooney
So Jerald ,
If you were to make a go of it again how would you design the effort?
Tim
Tim Mooney - "I had mentioned earliar about being equipped to handle so many different things. One to have the knowledge but another to have it on the truck."
I was going to get to that because that's where my interests in figuring out how the business is run lies right now. I'm thinking it was something Cal wrote somewhere recently that got me thinking just how do you know what to have in your truck when you go out on a call. I saw one of the Home Services Shop guys in my town the other day and if I remember correctly the guy had a capped pickup and he was pulling a trailer. That's a lot of stuff! But still is it enough and is it full of the right stuff?
My thinking is you need some real specialized and lean organization and you need to triage the phone call for service when it comes in. I was wondering about the guy who hung the heavy mirror for $30 in the article. While I carry around tons of different caulks and adhesives in my truck as inventory I don't carry the specialized adhesive that's used to hang mirrors. How did that guy know to have it? By triage I mean if you get called to hang a heavy mirror you need to figure out is this a picture hanging mirror, a plastic bracket wall hung mirror, or a adhesive mounted wall mirror and then you have to show up with the right materials for that job. But when you go on that job you don't (necessarily) need " the water meter key" and other plumbing repair items.
Wherever the "handyman" is dispatched from there has to be either a good supply of typical inventory in storage (not very lean) or it needs to be in close proximity to a thoroughly stocked supplier (a more lean approach).
While I am often chided and kidded about my obsessions with collecting data regarding how long certain tasks take and just what tools were used I think it comes in handy with setting up something like a handyman operation. I took a list of typical handyman tasks from a book I found a short while back and made it into a database that we are now populating with information regarding what kinds of tooling and equipment are needed for those particular tasks. While were really primarily architectural woodworking contractors we have some systems like that going already. If you going out on a job that has door hanging going on you grab the door hanging box that has all the tools and bits you'll need to hang a door and install a lockset. There are specialized tools such as the lockset jigs in the box but you don't need all the drill bits because the bits you need for door hanging are already in that specialized box. You don't need all the router bits because there is a trimmer in the box with the bits you'll need for hinge mortising. Etc etc.
For another example of what I'm taking about see Joe Ely's blog Learning About Lean Sunday, July 17, 2005.
Keeping boxes and inventories like that that I just described current is another problem. The other day I grabbed one of the Zag Deep Organizers we keep dedicated to stainless steel screws and went off to work on this greenhouse I was working on restoring. When I went to that box for the screws I needed all the sizes I needed were empty, the last person using them didn't restock them nor did they tell anyone they needed restocking nor did the put a warning tag on the organizer indicating it was short on inventory. While fortunately I was local and only two miles from my home, our shop, and a couple of our suppliers doing any one of those things would have the company an hour of lost (unpaid for) productivity. I got to thinking we really need to implement a kanban system and something like that could be key to running a profitable handyman operation.
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Edited 10/14/2005 8:26 pm ET by JerraldHayes
What are your thoughts on marketing insofar as company image? In my neck of the woods, there are always customers who are looking to do something on the cheap. For example I told a customer what he wanted to do wasn't feasible because my wages would be too high compared to an alternative. He wanted to know if I knew any retired carpenters. He thought maybe for some reason a retiree would work cheap enough to make an ill conceived project work.The main obstacle I see is to get the term "Handyman" to mean a serious, versatile, professional rather than a semi-skilled, cheap, "jack of all trades master of none".
fudude - "The main obstacle I see is to get the term "Handyman" to mean a serious, versatile, professional rather than a semi-skilled, cheap, "jack of all trades master of none"."
I do think some of the big outfits out there are helping change that image and perception but I also think it's
still there in a lot of peoples minds. I'm not really sure what to do. We are perhaps fortunate in that in my neck of the woods while yeah there are "customers who are looking to do something on the cheap" there are perhaps more customers who want the job done professionally first and are not as concerned about the price.
Still I think the answer might still lie in establishing "a branded image of extreme professionalism".
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Maybe the answer lies in promoting a "branded image of extreme professionalism" in the "right neck of the woods". The question is what kind of customer or neighborhood?
A particular age of customer?
Age of house?
Income level?
Value of house?Has anyone had any experience in finding a certain group of customers and what do they find important?
I work in a small beach community of about 1000 homes, serving elderly, retirees, and widows, and some younger more affluent families. Don't have your handyman service, all over the county, keep it in a certain location, when I'm on a job and I get a call, I don't even want to know what it is, I simply say; I'll be over later this afternoon to give you a free estimate, its less than 10 minutes away and they love it that you will be there that very same day to give them an estimate. As for not carrying everything on you truck, don't, schedule your work, bring the tools and material you'll need for that day, you always have your basic tools you always use in it, if a quick fix call comes up. Take notes when doing your estimates, take time to look at the job closely to see what it will require and how long it will take, we've all blown it by glancing at a job and blurting out an estimate only to eat it later in labor, see (should I charge for an extra coat) I don't carry around my tile saw or miter saw only when I need it, There will be those times where one house will require multi trades be it two cuts on a miter and one on a tile saw, you have to charge for these things, if you are charging to little you will get calls from the cheapos, experience will dictate the price you can charge, It's hard at first and second jobs are mandatory unless you have extra bucks saved up (ya right) Great topic, just my more than 2 cents worth, Joe.
Thanks for your input. I live in an agricultural area which is in a multi-year drought. Money is tight and many people are capable of DIY. Real Estate values are cheap compared to the cities.I need to move to the beach somewhere. The only problem is it would take too long to fill in my farmers tan.
Jerrald;
Great to see you back.
I'm a Handyman, but I've had to change my image and my way of doing business.
While I was learning, I charged half what I do now and had the paid-for van that we bought as a family vehicle 12 years ago. I still use the vehicle, even though I have the same problem as Moony - what I need is never on the van. One of the ways I'm going to do that is buy a trailer and have it painted out, keeping most of the tools in that.
I discovered that "Handyman" = "low pay" in my area. So, I stopped calling myself a handyman as my skill level improved, and I changed into a construction professional. I still advertise in the "handyperson" of the local community paper, though.
I learned not to quote on the telephone. Even though I charge less than full construction companies with on-board trades, nobody want to pay my rate. I just send them a quote after seeing the job. If I get the job, fine, if not, it's like a bus .....
I'm an all-arounder, and more and more of my business is coming from referees and repeats.
One of the bigger problems in this area is the coming Olympics. We have a booming economy here, and with the Olympics in 2010, construction is going nuts. Trying to find someone competent who can work without minute by minute supervision is very difficult. It depends on the trades situation how well we succeed.
Oh well.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
I went to JLC online and couldnt find a thread that was there a month ago.
What happens over there ?
Tim
I'm not ignoring your posts here Tim but I'm watching the Houston/St. Louis game and taking care of some other business tonight. I have to work in my online life around the baseball playoffs this time of year ya know.The JLC topics should all still be there, look at and check your display preferences there and you can get them all to show up again. Or use the search. They're all there. I was looking at an old one from the year 2000 just the other night.
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All:
My father-in-law is 73 years old and has lived in Florida for the last fifteen years. He runs a referral-based handyman business, charges $20.00 per hour and has more work than he can handle. He dosen't carry insurance, pay taxes or employ anyone. He collects social security and a railroad pension. His house is paid off and he dosen't drink or smoke. His girlfriend moved out recently, so his bills are minimal.
This is your competition in the handyman business.
bs.... he's no more the competition than howdy doody..
he's just another undocumented workerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I knew there was something I didn't like about Howdy Doody.
I just didn't realize it was because he was an undocumented worker.
damn straight .. and mr. bluster, and Buffalo Bob too..
they were also probably commies and liberalsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think what Kowboy means is that as far as the customer is concerned, his FIL is the competition in the handyman business.
It's all very well professionals denying that he is the competition, but the customer has a big say in it too
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
John:
You are almost right. The customer has the ONLY say in the matter.
As long as customers vote with thier dollars, my or Mike's opinion as to whom the competition is is irrelevant.
I just thought that anyone considering getting into the handyman business would appreciate knowing who they are up against before they take the leap.
I know what you mean Kowboy. A few years ago, a good friend of mine had a house in Ocean City, NJ- sleepy little "dry" town at the Jersey shore, just chock full of summer rentals and high $$ second homes. While I was down there visiting, he mentioned that there was a great need for handyman services in the town (opening houses for the season, closing them, re-paints, etc), and that I should talk to his mother-in-law, a prominent real estate agent in the town regarding it.
I went to meet her, and sure enough, she had two "handymen" that she said she kept busy all year, and she could certainly find enough work for another. I inquired as to what their rates were, and her reply was "well, John bills $15/hour cash. Joe is a lot more expensive- he's $20/hour with a 2-hour minimum. It's a tough sell with some of my clients to get Joe work, but I have enough clients willing to pay to keep him busy. If you could work more in John's range, I could get you more work that you could handle."
I felt bad for laughing in her face before telling her that I don't even get out of bed for less than $60/hour (well, I felt bad just for a second....lol). She replied "well, you're not going to get any work in this area then". Darn.....I was really looking forward to working on $1,000,000 houses for Burger King wages too..........
Bob