I started a new ICF house last week.
The architect told me he had recently seen a new product which looked interesting – fabric forms for footings. My initial reaction was that that was ridiculous, but when I thought about how I am perfectly happy to pour 11 or 12 feet of concrete into forms made of foam, it no longer seemed quite so silly.
Check out the manufacturer here: http://www.fab-form.com/ They have some very interesting ideas.
I don’t own lumber suitable for footing forms at this point. I would have had to buy about 500′ of rough 2 x 10 for this job, costing over $1000. Most of that could be salvaged, of course, but some would be consumed and not reusable. Anyway, I don’t want to have to carry all that stuff around or store it.
The fabric form material to do the same job costs $170 plus material for stakes and stringers. The 2 x 4 stringers are almost all reusable. I would have used the stakes anyway.
Here’s what a framework for a fabric form looks like
We built the outer rim first. levelling with a transit and an autolevel.
Then we built the inner rim, levelling from the outer with an ordinary spirit level
We had a variation in depth in the excavation of almost 10″, requiring a very deep footing at the deepest point
We started this job with no electricity, but the power people showed up mid week.
Edited 5/24/2008 2:39 pm by ronbudgell
Replies
Cool Ron,
Have you poured yet?
Basswood,
Poured it Friday. Coming up!
So here's the footing form material, two rolls of 120' each
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We unrolled this and simply stapled it to the top of the light framework. It's a little slack in the framework so it can bulge some when full of concrete.
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Going around corners, the material is folded as neatly as possible, not cut. Think Christmas present corners.
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The straight run of formwork is amazingly easy and fast, but at this point, I'm looking at the depth we have to pour and beginning to get worried
But there is plenty to do to take my mind of what I disadter I might be getting myself into. I have to build footing steps. I hate building footing steps.
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It can be fun in an odd way to scribe form material to the dirt though an inch or so here or there is of no account.
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So here it is, almost ready to pour. The steel is in it, the cross ties are installed, we've checked levels, we've located corners for later placement of vertical steel bar. I suppose the only thing not ready when I took this shot, last Thursday, was my head.
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We poured late Friday morning in the rain. I was guiding the dirty end of the pump, wound up like a tight spring, watching for something to burst. Nothing even creaked! I managed to relax, as much as I can when pouring, and begin to treat this like just another job. As far as I know right now, it was a flawless pour.
On Monday, we'll take the forms apart and check levels again. Something might have moved when the concrete went into the forms, but I didn't see much movement. I might even go over there tomorrow and see how it turned out.
So here's what it looks like full of mud.
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I like this FabForm. Do more with less material.
Unbelieveable!
So cool!
Forrest
we alway just dig a trench in the ground, who cares if the footers are not pretty
ron... thanks for the photo essayMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
McDesign, Jay, Mike,
Thanks
Ron
Ron,Thanx for sharing.
I'll stay tuned.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
brownbagg,
I'm not looking for pretty. I'm looking for vertical variation of no more than 1/8" from perfect. Once or twice I've gotten lucky and actually achieved that.
Ron
Using the ground to form footers is only possible if you are not required to have drainage at the bottom of your excavation. In many parts of North America (and the world) we build on impervious soils which allow water to pond. In this case drain tiles are required at (or preferrably below) the footing level to ensure that the water doesn't build up and get in contact with the concrete (rising damp in concrete).
Also note that most parts of the world (even deserts) have a water table under the surface. This can lead to 100% relative humidy in the ground which can pass through unprotected concrete. Ground formed footers provide no protection to water vapor passing through the concrete into the interior of your building.
Please note that I work with Fastfoot¯, the manufacturer of the footing fabric that prevents moisture movement into the concrete.
you dig a hole you drop in gravel, then you pour, as long as the rebar not touching another bar, no problem. water proof a footing, why? it below the slab, not a problem. we pour our footing in water. our water table is about 18 inches.yes we leave the rebar in place
Edited 5/26/2008 2:04 pm by brownbagg
water proof a footing, why? it below the slab, not a problem. we pour our footing in water. our water table is about 18 inches.
Concrete is hygroscopic, which means it wicks water (and water vapor) into the concrete and can lead to excessive moisture loads inside the home. Go to the following research report by CMHC which discusses moisture and mold in Canadian basements in Ontario.
http://www.fab-form.com/products/fastfoot/cmhc_report_mold.html
50% of all basements have moisture problems. It makes no sense that in our modern day and age we still have moisture problems with basements! Keeping water and water vapor away from concrete is a prudent building strategy.
Rick Fearn
but its the footer, you waterproof the slab. the footer is below the slab
My spider senses tell me a long debate is imminent... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
does that mean Huck's thread is finished?;)I don't think I've ever seen Brown bag do long.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Today, we checked levels, stripped the wood from the form and laid out the house on the footings.
I found more variation from my intended plane than I had hoped for. The total variation is 7/8" from max to min. Not great, but I can deal with it.
What caused that? Probably the heavy rain the night before we poured softened the ground just a bit. Also, I had first-timers on the pour with me and I couldn't be everywhere at once, so there are a couple of avoidable lumps.
I am very happy with the fabric form. At this point, I think we are nearly two days ahead on labour and $800 - $1000 ahead on material. The material number is a bit of an illusion because if I had bought a heap of lumber for forming, I would still have most of it. The thing is, I don't want it. I don't want it mouldering in my yard and I don't want to carry it around.
Nearly all the wood we used for the forms will be reusable in the house except for maybe $60 worth of 1 x 3 and 1 x 4. I'll try to reuse that, somewhere, too.
I'll be doing this fabric footing again.
Ron
Did you say ICFs are going over this?7/8" can be a lot to work with for them. Do you have a bag of tricks for dealing, or do you want to open up that discussion?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
It is a lot. I aim for and usually get a total variation of 1/4". Even then, I have to do some compensating. On this footing, the worst part is in one location and is not large in extent. The rest is actually quite good. I think a litle bit of creative carving will sort it our pretty quickly.
Usually what I'll do is assemble three or four rows of ICF forms and shim them level and plumb with bits of foam, then foam up the gaps with expanding foam. Sometimes I have to scribe over a hump, saw it out with a cheap throwaway hand saw and drop the forms. I'll be doing some of that here.
This job has steps, too, which I did not set up at a multiple of the module height. I plan to rip the first course on the bottom level so that a seam line will be 3/8" below the height of the highest point on the top level of footing. Then, on the upper level, I'll scribe and saw the high spot, shim the low to level and foam.
This job is going to be pretty tricky to get right and keep right all the way to the top. Starting halfway up the basement wall, the ICF is interrupted by bays which will be wood framed, so I will have three separate free standing ICF walls to be connected by wood framing. So I can't depend on the ICF block link to keep the dimension right. I have to make it right.
I plan not to handicap myself by starting off with the least imperfection in the work. If I do that, I know I'll pay for it later. Any amount of fuss at this point saves twice as much later.
Ron
same methods I use. You have done this before, sounds like.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
My first ICF job was 13 years ago. Blue Maxx.
Ron
Same and same
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Footers are attached to either the slab or a concrete wall. Moisture will wick up through the footing into the slab or wall. In theory it is possible to membrance across the top of the footing to stop this moisture migration - in reality the steel reinforcing makes this very difficult, if not impossible.
Personally, I feel it is more prudent to moisture protect the concrete footing - why take the chance? Especially if Fastfoot is less than buying a bunch of forming lumber.
And what about the water table under your footing. We are finding more and more environmental engineers are requiring our membrane to prevent cement fines from entering and contaminating the water table below the footing.
Sincerely, Richard Fearn, Fab-Form Industries Ltd.
Edited 5/27/2008 8:44 pm ET by rfearn
Well All I can say is if you have proper curtain drain and a good bed of gravel it works.
In my adult life I've always just formed it up, as I said I've observed
many footers poured directly and if done right they ended up as dry basements.
At this point the trades seam to be a little on the regulated side, as
apposed to the good old day's when it was the builders job to make sure no corners were cut.
"Well All I can say is if you have proper curtain drain and a good bed of gravel it works."
Rick here: If you pour concrete on a bed of gravel, the concrete can pass its way through the gravel to the water layer below. Why wouldn't you use a vapor retarder to prevent this from happening?
My question to you is the following: have you ever gone back to any of your houses and measured the relative humidity of the concrete above your footing? Here is what I suggest to you, so we can prove this with science rather than words...
We have dampness measuring labels (using dessicant strips) that you place directly over the concrete wall and leave for a couple of days. If there is moisure coming up from the ground below, then the label will show the high relative humidity (and you loose the bet, and owe me a beer). If the relative humidity is under (say 45%), then I owe you the beer. If you need some damp-alert labels, email me at [email protected].
Sadly in the CMHC survey over half the basements in the Ottawa area of Ontario were found to have moisture and mold problems. And I'll bet you another beer that all the contractors that built those damp basements promised that there were no problems...
If you want to read the CMHC report, click on the link below:
ftp://ftp.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/chic-ccdh/Research_Reports-Rapports_de_recherche/eng_bilingual/Molds%20in%20Finished%20Basements.pdf
Sincerely, Rick
Edited 5/26/2008 8:10 pm ET by rfearn
I'm sure your right on every study and report you sight. That wasn't what I said or meant.
I don't pour that way but rather have seen and been around footers and foundations done that way that worked out fine.
So #### for tat aside, I'll buy ya a beer any time.
Wow the censors are touchy tonight!
Yea but Teats works. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
And just because I can rarely pass up a chance for a good pun... Just anudder way to spell it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
And I'll buy the second beer!
Richard, Brownbag is pouring concrete in the swamps of Alabama.
There's as much moisture over his slabs as under.
Joe H
Hi Joe
Does that mean I win the beer, then?
Sincerely, Richard
Check with Henley about the beer.
Joe H
Does lining the footing form/trench with a poly vapor barrier work?
Does lining the footing form/trench with a poly vapor barrier work?
Hi Josh:
I am not sure what your question is - are you asking if Fastfoot¯ will stop the migration of ground moisture and water vapor into the concrete? The answer is yes, as it has a perm rating of 0.0628.
If your question is whether you can use Fastfoot¯ as a footing form, the answer again is YES again. We have sold over 4 million linear feet of footing formwork across the USA and Canada, creating sustained value by reducing the moisture load through the concrete and into the interior of the building (and stopping cement contamination of water tables under the footing).
Sincerely, Rick Fearn, Fab-Form Industries Ltd., makers of Fastfoot¯ http://www.fastfoot.com
I knew you was a saleman
Maybe so, but he is teaching us something. whether it is of value is up to each of us to weigh.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In this case I agree with you. A very good bit of info here for thought.
I like the point made in this one particular picture.
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If you've ever had to pour the day after a rain or in a high watertable area. Needing a constant running pump and worring about the quality of your concrete. This says it all.
Been there!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It seems to me that the biggest benefit is eliminating the footing from wicking moisture. Can this also be achieved by lining traditional footing forms with the same polyethylene one would use under the slab?
...the biggest benefit is eliminating the footing from wicking moisture. Can this also be achieved by lining traditional footing forms with the same polyethylene one would use under the slab?
Hi Josh
I agree this is the biggest benefit. But there are other benefits as well. You eliminate most of the forming lumber (above grade footings) and any lumber and stakes you do use is untouched by concrete. Furthermore you eliminate the expensive transportation and storage of the forming lumber. Recycling is always more expensive than one way forms that stay in place and provide value for the life of the building.
You could certainly use an underslab vapor retarder, but the advantage of Fastfoot¯ is there are adjustment lines to ensure you get the correct footing contact width with the ground (for formed footers, not trenched footers). As well, the product is C-folded, so it makes for really easy installation.
We have a video on the install - go to http://www.fab-form.com/products/fastfoot/video.html
Sincerely, Rick Fearn, Fab-Form Industries Ltd.
I think we are on the same wavelength.
It occurred to me that combining the two methods we were discussing could work out rather well.
Only excavate what you need for the footer and then line it with
this or some other waterproof material.
Not all circumstances would allow it, but it could be a labor and material saving method. Yup, I'm buying this round.
not off the subject, we pour alot of our footer, underwater, without pumps
Yeah I've heard tell.
I've not done it, but a good friend is a dock builder down in the city.
He's told me about it. You pump it in and just displace the water right? I was thinking more along the lines of answering the concerns about
moisture wicking up the footer.
Very cooool.J
Ron, that is amazing! What were the odds of finding a place in NS you could drive stakes in line?
Except for the steps and assuming there is proper drainage, the footing will essentially not wick water into the foundation?"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Gordie,
The stakes didn't go in very deep. It's bloody hard under there.
Your point about the water not being able to wick into the foundation walls is also made by the manufacturer. I think it's a very valuable quality and hard to achieve otherwise.
Ron
Building Science had something to say about damp proofing the top of the footing or covering it with a membrane before setting the foundation forms.
Brian,"Experienced", enlightened me about wicking when I was quizing him about moisture control regarding finishing my basement. Prior to that, I was oblivious.
Whether or not this is an issue for ICF foundations would depend on the forms being XPS or EPS.
The scenery looks rugged, you building close to home?"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Gordie,
I can't see the difference between XPS and EPS in terms of wicking moisture. It's through the concrete, not the foam. The exterior of the wall is normally sealed with a non-breathing membrane like Blueskin, so the foam is not the issue.
Anyway, there was only one XPS ICF form that I ever heard of and it was a disaster. I built one basement with it, so I know.
I have tried adding a separation sheet on top of the footing before building up with ICF, but it always seems to move or tear or something.
The site is about ten minutes drive away from home a little further out the bay in a subdivision where I've built two other ICF houses. Waterfront.
Ron
Ron--
That's awesome. Wonder why nobody every thought of that before.
Is the strapping on top of the form just 1x3? Any major issues flatting the pour with those in your way?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino,
Look at the link to the company's website.
How about pouring a concrete column into a tube of fabric supported only by a 2 x 4 or two? It boggles the mind.
Ron
It boggles the mind.
It all makes perfect sense, tho...after you see it done, LOL. Filaments or fabric fibers in linear tension are incredibly strong for their weight and size. If you wrap a weakened/split timber with fabric or filament tape, it winds up stronger than it was before it was damaged. Extending that fact to this new application was a stroke of inventive genius. The guy who had the brass ones to try this the first time deserves all the dough he can make outta his patent.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
TH,
When I first heard of this, I could understand the physics easily enough. The question in my mind was "Is this fabric actually strong enough to do this or will I soon be wishing for higher boots?"
I suppose that's two questions, isn't it?
Ron
Well, I'm gonna remember this one. I'm estimating a job right now for a cantilevered dock repair that will require new footings for the fulcrum cribs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Monsieur R
You can easily form any shape you can make a rim for. You only have to fold the fabric to suit the rim. You don't have to form the walls with great care.
They sell the footing form in two widths. I used the 62". The other one is bigger.
Ron
Ron,
What I meant was the transfer of moisture from the footing to the interior basement walls. Having never touched an ICF, in my drive-bys I mistook the blue forms as extruded. Excuse my ignorance, did I ever mention I went "inside" in 88?
Your "footing in a bag" is a brilliant solution.
There was some talk of preparing concrete in a poly sheet at one of the Lion's Head mixers. Assume they will be taking credit for this development any moment.
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Gord,
Not my idea. I wish it was. Credit FabForm industries. I think we'll be seeing a lot of this stuff in use soon.
Mixing a small batch of concrete by slopping it around in a tarp or sheet of poly was Richard's idea. I haven't tried it yet, but it's there, tucked away, waiting for its chance.
Ron
pretty sure I saw Tom Silva on TOH do this awhile back. Said he'll never do it any other way once he saw how much easier this was. I wonder if it can be adapted for curbs, maybe a 2x8 for the front, the side that shows, the back and what's underground, doesn't need to look pretty.
This whole thing is really interesting...
A few quick Qs that I hope have not already been covered...:
What staples did you use? 1/2" T-50s or what? Is there a "stapling schedule" ie - every 3" or what?
Is the fabric porous or is it closer to waterproof?
Matt,
I didn't really notice what size the staples were. Probably 3/8", common T50 type. That's about all I ever buy. We used a lot of staples. I don't know what the manufacturer might prescribe, but I didn't want to see the fabric falling off the stringers. I would hate to have put in just one or two too few staples.
The fabric appears to be woven polyethylene similar to tarp material but heavier. Unlike tarp material, it does not tear or shred easily. It does hold water. I had to poke a few holes in it to drain rain water out.
Ron
Matt, there's three very informative, short videos on the company web site. They're small screen so they can be viewed on dial up, if you don't have broadband and you're patient enough to wait for the download.
This is Richard with Fastfoot¯. We recommend using 3/8" staples in a hammer tacker to attach the fabric at about 12" on center. If the footing depth is greater than 12" then tighten up on the spacing.
Using fabric is very forgiving... Keep your hammer tacker in your pouch when pouring concrete. If you see the fabric slipping, just give a few taps with the stapler, and the problem is gone!
Fastfoot¯ is impervious to water, with a per rating of .0628.
>> Fastfoot¯ is impervious to water, with a per rating of .0628. <<
The reason I asked is that in another thread we were discussing UFER grounds and how I'm having 2020 hindsight that I wish I had installed some on a particular 2 houses. With a perm rating like that it would seem like the fastfoot product is mutually exclusive with UFER grounding.
Hi Matt:
Fastfoot¯ is an insulator of electricity, so if you are using an Ufer rod, it is recommended that the fabric is cut back directly under the Ufer rod to expose the 20' rebar length directly to the ground so that the required electrical contact is made.
If you click on the link below, it will take you to the Electrical Engineer's Report on the method of using Fastfoot¯ with conventional Ufer rods.
http://www.fab-form.com/products/fastfoot/Engineering,%20Ufer%20Rod,%20OR.pdf
Sincerely, Richard Fearn, Fab-Form Industries Ltd.
Hi Matt:
Fastfoot¯ is an insulator of electricity, so if you are using an Ufer rod, it is recommended that the fabric is cut back directly under the Ufer rod to expose the 20' rebar length directly to the ground so that the required electrical contact is made.
Call me crazy, but wouldn't that allow moisture in and up, effectively ruining the moisture barrier?
It isn't you that is crazy, but the Inspector.A far better way of providing the electric grounding is to drive a steel bar into the ground beside the footing sufficiently deep so that it hits the moist ground below. In fact most inspecting authorities require this method, as in the hot summer, the Ufer rod surrounded by dry soil provides much more electrical resistance than the rod driven into the moist soil below.All the best, Rick, Fab-Form Industries Ltd., manufacturer of Fastfoot¯
As I understand it, a Ufer is concrete encased and uses the entire concrete mass to ground, it's not surrounded by dry soil.
It certainly seems to me that proper functioning of a Ufer rod and Fastfoot are mutually exclusive.
Opening a slit in the fastfoot to use a ufer not only destroys the moisture barrier component of the fastfoot material, but only provides a limited area for grounding.
"As I understand it, a Ufer is concrete encased and uses the entire concrete mass to ground, it's not surrounded by dry soil. It certainly seems to me that proper functioning of a Ufer rod and Fastfoot are mutually exclusive. Opening a slit in the Fastfoot¯ to use a ufer not only destroys the moisture barrier component of the fastfoot material, but only provides a limited area for grounding."Hello, Mr. Deadman1, it's Rick here from Fastfoot¯. Sorry to be long in getting back to you, but I have been in contact with the Portland Cement Association (http://www.cement.org) to see if there is more information on the conductivity of concrete. Concrete is a very poor conductor of electricity, especially when it is dry. Go to http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/ect/civil/conductive.aspx for a discussion on concrete's conductivity.As concrete is such a poor conductor, most code inspection authorities no longer allow the Ufer rod encased in concrete. It is far more effective to drive a grounding rod well into the ground (to the level of ground moisture) than to have the rod encased in insulating concrete.Putting a slit in Fastfoot¯ under the Ufer rod doesn't make sense, I agree, but some times you have to do silly things to pass code. It makes far more sense to drive a grounding rod into the soil and not use an insulated Ufer rod.All the best, Rick Fearn
http://www.fastfoot.com
Not here in Oregon they don't. Ufer is first/recommended choice of grounding methods .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Not here in Oregon they don't. Ufer is first/recommended choice of grounding methods."Hello, Dovetail.I agree that the Ufer rod is the recommended choice of grounding methods in OR. BUT...Concrete is a very poor conductor of electricity, especially when it is dry. Go to http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/ect/civil/conductive.aspx for a discussion on concrete's conductivity.As concrete is such a poor conductor, most code inspection authorities no longer allow the Ufer rod encased in concrete. It is far more effective to drive a grounding rod well into the ground (to the level of ground moisture) than to have the rod encased in insulating concrete.Putting a slit in Fastfoot¯ under the Ufer rod doesn't make sense, I agree, but some times you have to do silly things to pass code. It makes far more sense to drive a grounding rod into the soil and not use an insulated Ufer rod.
Fastfoot¯ has a perm rating of .0628 perms (3.59E-09 g/Pa.s.m²) and provides excellent protection against ground moisture as well as water vapor travelling from the water table below. As the relative humidity in the ground is often close to 100% (from the water table below), it is prudent to protect all concrete from moisture movement (both vapor and liquid).
It is inconsistent that we place a vapor retarder under the slab (or on the external face of the foundation wall), yet leave the footing concrete unprotected. On impervious soils, water ponding readily occurs (especially in the rainy season) and footings should be protected.
Please note that I work for Fastfoot¯.
thats amazing.
Im curious on how you strip the forms now.
bobbys
I'm curious, too. I don't think any of the wood is trapped, though. I'll let you know.
Ron
Do you use Ufer grounds (concrete encased ground electrodes) up their?
That would keep them from working.
The NEC has been pushing a then for a few years. But apparently few AHJ's are requiring them.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Good point.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Bill,
That's a very good point that the form membrane could be an electical insulator, especially when I remember that I told the electrician that he could tie his ground to the rebar grid in the ICF wall. I know that's allowed here but only with specified connections to the rebar and only with advance permission from the power company.
I'll have to call him back.
Does that sort of connection make it a ufer ground?
There's no government supervision of electrical installations here. Inspections are done by the power company.
Ron
It is just not the connection to the rebar. But the footing needs to be in Direct Contact with the earth..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
looks like the steps don't have the fabric... would that count? If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Thanks for posting this... might have some good applications in doing piers in a sealed crawl... besides the obvious other one's. If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Snort,
You're right about that. No fabric in the steps and the service will be installed very close to one step. How much surface contact do I need?
BTW, I went to see Bob Dylan last week. Dismal, dismal show. He was simply not present for the performance. There was a body on the stage which might have been his or might have been a mechanical robot.
Ron
might have been a mechanical robot.
"You've got...a lot of nerve." ;-)
Very Funny! Broke me up.
Ron
Very Funny! Broke me up.
Dylan's never been predictable as a live performer. Like many others who rise to fame rapidly, then lose their initial creative impetus, Dylan's been a mere shadow of his great early work for the last forty years.
Happens to the best of us, too often.
Edited 5/26/2008 10:07 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Dylan's never been predictable as a live performer
Ain't that the truth. I've seen him a number of times over the decades and it's a #### shoot whether it'll be worth it or not.
But, will you still go see him, or what? Any time he comes around, I will... dang, I can't be all effervescent all the time...He's said he can't write songs like he used to. Now he's writing books, and I can't wait for the next one. The guy can tell a story.He's an extrodinary person, and I know I'm no where even close to critiqueing him.Highway 61 is still the best<G> If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
The old stuff is the only stuff, he lost me 25 years ago.
Joe H
The christian thing slowed me down, but I got over it... he's still got it...not sure if I'd listen to a song about flimsy footings though<G> If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Think bout when I quit smoking dope is when I lost him, seem like John Wesley Hardin was the last of his good stuff.
Joe H
Highway 61 is still the best
Hard to disagree, although I also love Bringing it all Back Home, Another Side, Blonde on Blonde and all of the early ones. In fact, hardly any of his albums really suck.
He's the most influential force in American popular music in the last 50 years, with Lennon, Myles, Elvis and Britney the rest of the top five.
Agreed, especially the Britney part LOL... but you've gotta have sixth man, and it's gotta be Smokey<G> If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
but you've gotta have sixth man, and it's gotta be Smokey
Can't argue with that.
Hi Ron,
To each his own. I was mesmerized by the show. I have been listening to Bob ever since. Do you like his new albums ? That seems to be the acid test, as to whether or not you like his live shows. I believe Modern Times, to be one of his best albums. The live version of Nettie Moore, and Working Man Blues were absolutely fantastic. The rework of the classics just works for me.
The encore of Like A Rolling Stone had the house rocking. What can I say, my kids and I haven't stopped talking about the show.
P.S. I really enjoyed your photo essay.
Brian
Fall River, N.S.
blivingstone,
As you say, to each his own.
I've been a Dylan fan for a very long time and have seen two previous shows in Halifax which were both good given the limitations of the site. For me, this latest show was bad mainly because Dylan didn't seem to be there. He was simply not present in spirit.
Glad you liked the picture show. We pour the basement walls this morning.
Ron
Only if they are 20 ft continous.Now all that needs to happen is someone to make a fabric that has copper threads in it and it approved by UL..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Fastfoot¯ is made of high density polyethylene (for the strength), with a low density coating (to achieve a low per rating, for preventing moisture movement). However polyethylene does not allow the conduction of electricity.
Most code jurisdictions allow either a piece of rebar (or several) driven into the ground, or a Ufer rod (a 20' length of rebar in the concrete footings). In those jurisdictions where they only allow a Ufer rod in the footing itself, the footing fabric must be removed directly under the Ufer rod.
You can find the electrical engineering report on this solution by going to:
http://www.fab-form.com/products/fastfoot/Engineering,%20Ufer%20Rod,%20OR.pdf
Please note that I work with Fastfoot¯.
Cool! I learn something new here every day! Thanks.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Cool!
One of my guys told me a year or two ago that we would someday be forming footings with plastic. I never figured out if he was pulling my leg or what.
How do you level the pour? Just fill to top of the forms or do you set grade stakes, or use a sensing tool as you flow and screed? Seems like the load on the forms could pull it out of whack too much to just fill to top and screed off...
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Piffin,
I set the rims where I wanted the concrete and struck it off level with the rims. Once the form is full of mud, it feels solid. It doesn't feel like it's going to collapse or sway. Working on the surface of the form felt as solid as if it really was solid.
Tomorrow, I'll check the levels. That will tell the tale. I know it was good when we started.
Ron
Do you have to compensate for the bulging when you figure out the yardage?
Henley,
Yes. That's just another wrinkle.
Ron
I still dont see the purpose of the form, we always dig a trench. drive some rebar to within a 1/16 of grade about five foot apart and then pour a super p. when the rebar poke his head, we stop vibration. we are within a 16 most of the time.
Growing up working with my dad, that's how he did it.
I like the fact it is in undisturbed soil (for the most), And it saves
the monkeying around with extra forms.
I've wondered why more people don't do it that way.
You can't use a trench form like that in a lot of soils, and where there is frost, the irregular sides formed give tooth to th efrost to help heave a foundation out of the ground
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, we can't get away with the trench footing here. We run our drain tiles below the top of the footing, and the interior tile is connected to the exterior by 4" PVC crossovers every 6 feet. We dig the entire basement at bottom of footing level.Next basement I have to do, I'm going to try Form-a-drain. More money, but don't have to strip forms and you have a bomb proof footing drain/radon mitigation pipe.
It works well, but more labour too, and you need a good level base, or expect to be using a shovel. Get the version with the sock on it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Footings must be formed if the code requires drainage at the bottom of the excavation. In places such as southern California, earth forming is often the norm.
This is Richard with Fastfoot¯.
<This is Richard with Fastfoot�>You're not sure who you are? or who you're with?
Barry E-Remodeler
Thanks for the posts. Your system looks great !! The material your product is made from reminds me of one made by Sto-Cote industries (although I am unaware of them using it in the manner you have found for it).
Do you manufacture the base product yourself of is this a re-manufacture?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
brownbagg
I don't think I can do that here. I need to be able to show that the footing has the code-required depth. The easiest way to do that is to show the inspector the edge of the footing.
It would also mean higher walls. I want to have a few inches, even a foot, of 1" clear stone inside the footing to put the basement slab on. The stone adds insulation value, prevents water from building up, allows a space to vent off radon - you know the story. If the dirt is as high as or even higher than the footing, the walls would have to be that much higher again.
And maybe it's like a lot of things in housebuilding. We do it and we don't exactly know why.
Ron
i dont think its a good idea to have the rebar penetrating the bottom of the footing. i think its better having a rebar cage set on dobie's and a vertical member directly over a dobie being set to grade.
he is talking about for grade stakes, not for the re-inforcing ladders
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yeah i got that, and i thought it was a bad practice to have a piece of metal (rebar or grade stake) piercing the bottom of the footing.
shouldn't a grade stake like that be removed after pour? how do you remove it if it is flush to grade? if you want a grade stake that is flush to grade is it not better to have it resting on a dobie?
That is freakin awesome!!!!!
What did that form job cost you in terms of labor and materials?
Nice job on TOFTT.....
BjR
I had assumed that it would be removed as apart of the pour, after all is vibro-screeeded in to place. Takes only a couple minutes to go back around, grab and pull them and then trowel back the hole. Maybe I am assuming too much and they leave them in place in Florida.
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