But how do I convince a customer that something is done right and cannot be done any better given the quality of material available these days? Let’s assume the person thinks they know how something should be done because “their home is done this way”, but NOOOOOOOOOO they don’t have any contracting experience.
:gritting teeth: I’ve just about lost my patience with this person! :gritting teeth:
Replies
What is the material that you are talking about?
You have to sell the sizzle, not the steak.
What is the material, and a few more details.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Doors.
Just plain ol' 6 panel interior doors. Primed, not painted. Customer is supposed to do their own paint prep and painting.
Ok, now what's their complaint?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Dang, you're fast!
They say the doors have scratches, but the I say the scratches are from normal handling and don't even go through the primer. Nevertheless, they want the doors replaced. Their painter agrees with me. Let me drop everything I'm doing so I can work on your problem!
How about touching up the scratches with primer??You would think it would make everyone happy...
silver
They sound like thet're looking for an excuse to scr*w you around, be careful with these types, they're sneaky!! BUIC
Have you asked the painter (or another painter) if a heavy bodied primer would fill these scratches and the top coat will go on without them telegraphing through?
How many doors we talking here?
I have installed 11 doors. I have offered to putty, paint, or do whatever it takes to repair the door, but they're having none of that. They want every one replaced. Their own painter said they are crazy for even suggesting something was wrong with the doors. I come from a long line of painters in my family, and have been employed by a major paint manufacturer recently. I know paint and what I can do with it.
Simply unreasonable. No way else to describe these folks.
I've spoke with others painters and contractors about this situation. Everyone says to terminate the contract. I agree, but I also want to get paid for the work I have done so far. I have a feeling this is going to get reeeal ugly...----------------------------------------
Let me drop everything I'm doing so I can work on your problem!
Follow your gut. Everybody here has a "i shoulda listened to the little voice" story to tell.
Well I don't know squat about painting, Matt. CAN you reprime them and paint the top coat such that those won't telegraph through?
Have you proposed to them that you repair the scratches, let their painter do his best, and if they are still unhappy you'll replace the doors at that point? Maybe your willingness to compromise will soften their stance a bit? 11 doors, that's a big bite even if all you do is replace the leaves.
Did I ever tell you about the customer I once had who I found looking through binoculars at the "bumps" the roof vents caused in his composition roof (this was a one story ranch)?
One morning I get there and he says "Jim, there's a piece of baseboard in the hallway not nailed well enough". I think "okay, that can happen, maybe missed a stud or dry fired without noticing". But when I look the base is all tight against the wall. So I think I must have misunderstodd what he said and ask him where he means and he gets down on his hands and knees and starts tapping along the baseboard until it rattles a little and says "See? Right there."
Well, I didn't mind nailing it, because really, it shouldn't be loose enough to rattle, right? But I always figured that poor guy must have spent hours crawling around tapping trying to find loose baseboard or he'd have never known it was loose in the first place.
He was a good guy. He just had a few quirks about him.
There's folks like this to be found most everywhere....... unfortunately.But I gotta say you have an extreme example and/or they're simply troubled in the noggin' and/or are trying to set you up.How's about you slip some happy pills in their coffee and when it takes full effect............ you get 'em to both sign off on the doors and write that check.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Sounds like this is their method of negotiating. Before asking you to do something they don't want to pay for, they ask you to do something that is totally unreasonable. They know it and so do you, but they won't give in. Then they ask you for an extra, but then suggest that since you won't "step up to the plate" on the other issue, you should be willing to do this particular task for free - to make amends. HA!Been there. Done that. If you give in, it will be the beginning of the slippery slope. They will eat you alive and you'll never get full payment for any future work. Something will always be thrown in at the last minute.They are testing you. Show them what you are made of, that you are running a business not a free clinic, and YOU set the precidents. YOU are in control.Go get 'em tiger! ROAR!Frankie
Gotta agree with both Frankie and Piff. We can't see the doors from here, but your description that the "scratches" aren't even through the primer leaves me with a mental image of something more on the order of scuffs, not scratches. If this is the case, IMO these folks are either mentally troubled or are workin' ya, just like Frankie suggested. Maybe both.Now I'm sure you have no intention of doing any more work for these folks, so the primary goal here is to get the check, then hit the trail....... never to return.Whether these folks are simply anal to the max or are setting you up in an attempt to get free work and/or product........it's sounds to me like the time has arrived to leave this stage of stalemate and manuever for checkmate. Tell them that since you and they can't agree on the necessity of replacement of the doors........... a third party should make the judgement. Specifically a judge in a courtroom. This shouldn't be presented with a hostile delivery, but rather one of "Okay, here's what we should do because we all need a resolution and to get on with life." Friendly, but still effective and to the point. Do all of this with a nice level attitude and a friendly smile on your face; one of trying to be helpful. Center yourself and you're closer to being back in the driver's seat again. Right now, they are.And so you propose that the first step to resolution is that the doors be painted and then you will take pics of each and every one. And recommend that they do the same. Tell 'em that if they're still dissatisfied when the doors are completed and consequently won't pay up immediately IN FULL........ you'll file the necessary lien on the property to begin the process of arbitration, sue for settlement so a court date can be set and then the court will decide who's right and who'd wrong with a legally binding decision after viewing the pics of the completed doors. Make sure to emphasize that you'll also be more than happy to abide by that decision.....because that's what the courts are for; to settle such disputes. If they resist and refuse to let the doors be painted and finished to completion, you then sigh, tell them that's unfortunate because they are leaving you no real option as the next set of doors won't be any different than these. "But if that's your position, I'll try to get things going for all of our sakes by filing the lien and beginning the proceedings to get that arbitrator's decsion". Make sure to take pics of the doors as they are right now. Remind them that they'll have to live with those doors just as they are until all the paperwork can be filed, a court date can be set and a judgment rendered. That could take a while.I've got a feeling the above proposals will wet their powder and call their bluff. (Now let's hope this guy or his wife aren't the judge or socially affliated with the judge.)Good luck. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 5/6/2005 11:16 am ET by GOLDHILLEREdited 5/6/2005 11:26 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 5/6/2005 11:54 am ET by GOLDHILLER
I agree with many of you here. I have had bad clients that wont pay or are just so anal that even the original building isnt good enough for them.
As we all know the worst publicity is bad publicity. Tell the homeowner that you will replace the doors. Take the doors back to your shop putty and prime them. Return, rehang them and get the painter to say they are good. Document the before and after with photos.
If this doesnt work take them to court. Just remember the one with the most documentation wins. Photos, photos, photos!!!
Matt
Monkey -
Photos are nice, and I would get pictures of everything, but unless they are really well done (Prof. Camera & Photographer) they probably won't even show this "damage". If this is really going to be a courtroom battle, and it shouldn't, as others have said, he should keep one of the "bad" doors for evidence to show the judge later. It's easy enough and cheap enough to change one of them out of the group. I think if I were litigating this, I would go further and call in whoever sold the doors and get them ready to testify about how minor the damage is too.
I would tell them to bite me, and say hello to Mr Lien. You have made every reasonable attempt to make them happy, above and beyond what your responsibilities are.
They clearly want to take advantage of you, and I would pull the plug, in a heartbeat. I suspect the problems arose when they didn't need you anymore? This is a classic case of a habitual user, and you must not let them wag your tail.
Do not mistake customer care and satisfaction with hosers who will take you for a ride for their own advantage.
They have made it clear what they are all about, now you take care of what you need. Your contract should have an out, use it. If you have any leverage to slow progress, use it.
Move on to paying jobs and focus only on collection. As sad as it may sound, these people are out there, and you have to figure them into your costs. There is absolutely no upside in wearing your knees out and kissing butt. You make your living from people who pay. These people get their kicks out of squeezing rocks and having dollars fall out.
It's business. Be professional and look them right in the eye and say I am sorry it has to come to this. Then walk away.
PLAN BHave them select the worst of the bunch. Have them BOTH sign the top and bottom edges of the door with a Sharpie.Bring the door back to the shop. Prime and paint 2 coats - alkyd. Sand lightly between each coat. Levels out real nice. Be sure to paint the door flat, not standing up.Return with the door and show them the "scratches" are not apparent.Be sure to charge them for painting the door. This is not a freebie. If it was, they might begin questioning the windows, the taping, the...Frankie
I once worked on a relocated building. Just a simple one room type thing that was going to be an office/sleepout sorta deal.
It had a porch already on it. However when I was doing the prep work for the decking I discovered that it was about 4 inches out of parallel with the building. Once the decking was on it would have shown up a lot. I asked Mr Owner what he wanted to do/how much will it bug you to leave it etc.
His answer was 'make it parallel cos I want it to be right'.
All of this was fine. The customer should have what he wants, right?
When he said that though, the first thought that went through my mind was 'uh, have a look around, and you want THIS right??'
The place was a dump. I got a look inside when I knocked on the door and asked to get the power plugged in. Scary. I was glad I didnt have to actually step in.
Cant get a handle on what makes folks tick sometimes. With this situation I would dig in and tell them to bite me.
As said above, cave once and its only going to get worse.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
As a painting contractor, former "punchlist" (i.e., make it right) person, and attorney, I have these observations:
Are these gouges or scratches? Assuming scratches:
(1) Tell your customers the doors are well within trade standards for materials which comply with your contract, you have met your obligation and performed your contract. Other comments made are relevant: this is what is available, unless they are top-end customers, in which case they would be paying quite a lot.
(2) Virtually any scratch (or even gouges) can be repaired with putty, or better yet bondo. Sand with heavy grit the area scratched, float a bondo coat over (leave it a bit high -- it shrinks) and sand it out with a palm sander, 120 grit or higher, finish with 180 or higher. Make sure it is cured several hours before priming. The bondo will get as hard as the substrate, and will disappear under the primer and final coat. The painter is a piss-poor painter if he/she doesn't know how to do this.
(3) These people don't really want the doors replaced -- that just doesn't make sense. They just either want to delay the project (and final payment?) or they want you to discount it. Obviously the doors have to be made right. In my view, if the scratches are minor, and the type routinely found, it's part of the painter's job. Otherwise, it's part ofyour job. Taking the doors back is stupid, if the next delivery will look the same. That said, I once worked for a builder who had his backhoe guy deliver the pre-finished doors in the bucket -- no drop, no paper or cardboard wrap -- now that was a bit extreme, and generated lots of overtime work for the other "punchlist" person.
(4) The National Association of Homebuilders publishes a guide of trade standards for what is considered acceptable performance in homebuilding. This is a useful reference.
(5) Can you say "construction lien"?
Be careful....
I had a cousin doing a little job installing siding. customer complained about damage, cousin disagreed but said he would replace it. sSding came down, customer wanted an upgrade at no cost due to the inconvenience, wouldn't let cousin on the job site until he complied. Weather turned bad, customer complained about water damage...
Cousin lost his shirt on that little job.
HarryD
So he got hosed, giving a new definition to a wete T-shirt contest
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I can't see from here how bad these scratches are, but I disagree that scratches happen to doors all the time from "NORMAL " handling.be that as it may - I might be likely to say, sure, I'll take care of it, then take all the doors off the hinges and back to the shop. A week lkater, I could then deliver the 'new' doors sans scratches. They would need a forensic specialist to find signs of the scratches
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Piffin has a great suggestion. Either that or get a nasty lawyer at the ready, or, walk away.
the big difference between piffin's suggestion and some of the others is that his eliminates the problem while others just make more problems.
unless you think the HO is screwing with you, in which case the doors aren't the problem and fixing them won't help, then do what piffin suggests. If you want to go to war with them, that's easy enough to do and after more expense, angst and hassle, maybe you'll win.
It always amazes me how many people immediately default to the nuclear option. War is not good for children and other living things. Get done, get paid, live to fight another day. This is a business, not a demonstration of manhood.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
While I agree that Piff's suggestion would be great.......I fear it won't work. Why? Because in their current frame of mind, these folks won't likely allow a guy to remove the existing doors and then return later with the "new" doors because they aren't dumbies. They'd naturally be suspicious if that occurred and then accuse you of doing exactly what it is you had done. You're all then back to square one again. And........since the doors are now attached to their house and not just sitting there leaning against the wall, you can't remove them without their permission. That's why the current situation is a stalemate. Since the "threat" or the actuality of placing a lien on the property is the only legal tool one has.......I think it best to present it to them as if you were all about to humbly appear before King Solomon, rather than as a can of mace in the face. It doesn't take but a few minutes longer to make this presentation than to threaten them with a lien, flip 'em the bird and stomp off. A calm approach doesn't weaken your legal clout one iota, drives home the point that legal arbitration is on the horizon and staying cool and centered is much easier on your stomach and nerves. It may just work....unless for some reason they think Solomon is as anal and unreasonable as they are. Right now I bet they think they have Matt by the short hairs whereas in legal reality this isn't true at all. Nothing to lose.......and everything to gain. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Mine can be done with a smile and cals their bluff at the same time. I like someone elses idea of informing them it will take a few more weeks though. I think I'd wait 'till they were on my truck to tell them that tidbit - just for the fun of watching their faces.
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I agree with you that most pre hung primed doors are garbage. I don't have much experience with older better material since only ten years in the business. I would suggest that they go to the hardware store and look at there doors and see that they are all damaged. "GOOD LUCK"
Can you throw it at the door company rep? Have him come out and inspect their product.
I have seen this sort of thing myself.
I use to work as a truck driver for a bedroom furniture wholesaler. One of the retailers that we supplied had a costumer reject and entire suit ($6,000 retail) because a small knot fell out of the back side of the trim that goes around the top of the hutch. You had to stand on a ladder to see it and that is exactly what she had done. She wouldn't let us replace just the hutch.
She went to a different retailer, which was also one of our customers, and ordered the same suit. Our company sales person recognized the order and told the boss about it. He went through every box with a magnifying glass to check for defects. We were unable to put an entire suit together without a defect someplace, even in areas that couldn't't been seen when standing in front of the item. The boss called the retailers customer directly and told them that we would not honor there order.
There are some people out there that think that everything should be perfect even though they themselves are not. If you have the chance to go back to that house I bet you will find that the paint job that they do on the doors will have flaws in it. It is those kind of people that you wished you could leave standing in the middle of the lot naked, hungry and with no shelter because nothing is good enough for them.
Tell them that it will take 6 to 8 weeks to get new doors. Then take those doors back to the shop and repair the scratches that you can find, if there are any, wait 12 weeks to deliver them and hang them. Have a doctored copy of the receipt handy if they should want to see it. Also tell them that the second trip out to there home will cost them more, after all your not doing all of this for free, which is what they want.
Good luck with them.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
It sounds to me the HO is just looking for a freebie. There is nothing that cannot be fixed and they know it.
I would let them live without doors in their house until the "problem" could be resolved and their account brought up to date.
Matt, by refusing to let you try to fix the doors, these people have proven themselves to be highly unreasonable. They may also have that "us against the world" attitude that makes them combatitive with the very ones who are trying to work FOR them; namely, you. But I doubt they are trying to rip you off, or delay payment. It's more likely that they are worried about getting burned, and don't trust you to be able to provide an "as new" product. They are wrong. If the damage is really as minor as you say, you could have easily made this a non-issue with just a little work. As it is, you will have to remove the offensive doors and return with non offensive doors - one way or another. I like Piffin's idea, the old "bait and not switch", even though they will be expecting it at this point. Here's what you do. These are prehung, right? Even if you met the clients' wishes and bought 11 new doors, the practical thing would be to leave the existing jambs, pop the pins and switch in the new doors. So do it: Buy new doors and keep the receipt. Take away the old doors and make your repairs. Now you have a choice: return the same doors to the client, (but bring them to the job in the new jambs), or give them the new doors and return the old ones. You can do this with a clear conscience only if you really can make the repairs correctly - the same way they do re paints in the factory (and they do, too). Probably an HVLP sprayer and a sandable, fast drying primer will do the trick. Zinser shellac-based will build up, and is sandable. Don't use Bondo or any other filler for scratches in paint alone.
If you go the first route, look carefully for pin pricks or other marks they might make to bust you, and be ready to show them the receipt to "prove " that the doors are new. Option two, give them the new doors but take your time, don't bring the new jambs, and refuse to show them any reciept. They'll go crazy trying to figure out what happened (trust me, this will bother them more than scratches would have).
Let us know what happens, good luck.